Janosky:
[]

How does "Everyone is of one mind" (or 3 persons ) translate to One God ?
Wetin Musa no go see for gate ...

You're getting me wrong here... my stand on the "trinity" concept is pretty much neutral.

I'm only explaining what drives the whole thing... God, Jesus and Holyspirit being of one mind. That's the kinda relationship God wants with His children.

Everyone should be of one mind (as though we are sharing one mind)...

okosunehis:


While your analogy has some coherence, it is not what the doctrine of Trinity says. Let me share excerpts of the Athanasian Creed which Trinity basically takes its authority from:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith...

"And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God...

"And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity...

"This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

I'm sure you can see that your idea of Trinity is quite different from what the authorities suppose. As much as Christ likened himself to the Father, he never placed himself on an equal pedestal with his Father. The Bible is replete with texts that affirm this. When we yield ourselves to the leading of God's Spirit, we act in accordance to His purpose. That does not in anyway suggest that we become equal to our Creator; not in body, not in soul and not in spirit.

Lol...sounds like serving a montheistic God, but at the same time still trying to smuggle polytheism through the back door...

I really don't want to get into the details... but if these three distinct personalities are not of one mind...then there's no agreement and by extension...there's no "trinity"

I'm just saying the main essence of the whole thing is...each of these entities (God, Son, Spirit) are of one mind, and somewhat interdependent on one another.

Just as how...Spirit, Soul and Body depends on one another for a man to live in this physical realm of existence...

Hope I've not confused you

OkCornel:


Lol...sounds like serving a montheistic God, but at the same time still trying to smuggle polytheism through the back door...

I really don't want to get into the details... but if these three distinct personalities are not of one mind...then there's no agreement and by extension...there's no "trinity"

I'm just saying the main essence of the whole thing is...each of these entities (God, Son, Spirit) are of one mind, and somewhat interdependent on one another.

Just as how...Spirit, Soul and Body depends on one another for a man to live in this physical realm of existence...

Hope I've not confused you

No worries, I get your drift. My point still is that your idea of Trinity is not consistent with what the authorities that came up with the doctrine state. So, you might be the one conflating issues. To discourse issues like this, you cannot avoid going into details. You are actually doing that already!

I have an independent spirit different from yours. No matter how much we become unified in purpose, we are still different persons with different spirits. The same applies to our relationship with God. No matter how much we align with God's purpose and act according to the will of the Holy Spirit, we remain independent beings with our own innate spirit. That is why we are free moral agents. Unity of purpose is not unity of spirits or persons.

Like you pointed out, Trinity is just a disguised form of polytheism. Little query - By the time all the sons and daughters of God become unified in the Holy Spirit, what becomes of your idea of Trinity, which is three minds becoming one? Would we now be looking at Billionity!?? Lol

okosunehis:


No worries, I get your drift. My point still is that your idea of Trinity is not consistent with what the authorities that came up with the doctrine state. So, you might be the one conflating issues. To discourse issues like this, you cannot avoid going into details. You are actually doing that already!

I have an independent spirit different from yours. No matter how much we become unified in purpose, we are still different persons with different spirits. The same applies to our relationship with God. No matter how much we align with God's purpose and act according to the will of the Holy Spirit, we remain independent beings with our own innate spirit. That is why we are free moral agents. Unity of purpose is not unity of spirits or persons.

Like you pointed out, Trinity is just a disguised form of polytheism. Little query - By the time all the sons and daughters of God become unified in the Holy Spirit, what becomes of your idea of Trinity, which is three minds becoming one? Would we now be looking at Billionity!?? Lol

Per the bolded, that's exactly why I have a neutral mindset about the whole "trinity" thingy

If we are all sons of God...shebi e don turn to billionity na

OkCornel:


Per the bolded, that's exactly why I have a neutral mindset about the whole "trinity" thingy

If we are all sons of God...shebi e don turn to billionity na

As far as billion is involved, I'm in! lol

okosunehis:


As far as billion is involved, I'm in! lol

Lol...na the koko be that

OkCornel:


You're getting me wrong here... my stand on the "trinity" concept is pretty much neutral.

.

Oga mi, your point noted.
Shalom.

Janosky:

Oga mi, your point noted.
Shalom.

Cheers bro.

Jah bless us all...

okosunehis:



Thanks for your response bro. Referring to Jesus as an angel is right, but he is an arch angel; the first and the greatest; by which all others were created. He is a son like no other, an angel like none else; the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. He is in a class of his own.

Concerning the Greek word "exerchomai", I took time to look into it. Of the 224 times it (and its derivatives) is used in the New Testament, only six times (John 8:42; 13:3; 16:27, 28, 30; 17: does it suggest anything related to creation, and that is if we are going by your understanding of it. Thayer's Greek Lexicon states that such usage is even metaphorical. You can click the link below:

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G1831/exerchomai.htm

Looking at those six verses, the crux of Christ's declaration is not about creation but about having been with the Father (in His company) and sent by Him. In fact, in John 13:3 and 16:28, he went further to say that not only was he from God, but that he would also return to God. Of course this cannot mean that he is returning to the body of God from whence you say he was created. It simply means he is returning to heaven, to be reunited with God, in company and not body.

We can also look at 1 John 2:19 where a derivative of Exerchomai - "exēlthan" is used. Here, Apostle John said, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." So having come out or forth from something does not presume concord or unified purpose, neither does it even suggest creation. Rather John is disclaiming antichrists, even though they may at some point, been working with true disciples of Jesus Christ.

Personally, I don't think anyone can claim to totally understand the full nature of the creative process by which the Father JEHOVAH gave life to the Son Jesus. If you consider us humans for example, although scientists have done a lot to unravel the physical nature of man's reproductive or procreative process, the spiritual nature of man is almost a complete mystery. How does a spirit being birth another spirit being? How can a physical man even explain that?!

Your posit would be a very beautiful way to look at it though. Maybe comparable to the way a child emerges from the the very body of the mother, having been formed by the egg cells of both parents. Also similar to how Eve was created from the body of Adam and not entirely of herself. But to reiterate, I cannot arrive at that conclusion from available scripture.

That said, being perfect spiritual persons of the highest imaginable essence, I will want to believe that the productive process which birthed Christ must be one of utmost perfection. More perfect than whatever is humanly imaginable, even cloning. Hence he being the express image of God, possessing the fullness of the Father, being in the very nature of God Himself! Indeed, Christ is Almighty, but not the Almighty God. But we must remember that however we want to look at it, nothing is impossible with God!

It is best for us to allow the Bible to interpret itself.

The question is what did it cost God to deliver man from sin and death? did it cost God an Angel(his first Angel) or his literal Son.

The facts and evidence are clear.








But when the fullness of the time had come, God
sent forth His Son , born of a woman, born under the
law, Galatians 4:4

Am still wondering while this Bible verse did not say God sent an Angel born of a woman considering the fact that Angels are also called Sons of God.


Consider this Bible verses.

Jesus is called God by his father and prophets and he will rule with God no Angel has such privileges.

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the FORM of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.


1. For unto us a Child is born , Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His
name will be called Wonderful , Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6


Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

okosunehis:



Thanks for your response bro. Referring to Jesus as an angel is right, but he is an arch angel; the first and the greatest; by which all others were created. He is a son like no other, an angel like none else; the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. He is in a class of his own.

Concerning the Greek word "exerchomai", I took time to look into it. Of the 224 times it (and its derivatives) is used in the New Testament, only six times (John 8:42; 13:3; 16:27, 28, 30; 17: does it suggest anything related to creation, and that is if we are going by your understanding of it. Thayer's Greek Lexicon states that such usage is even metaphorical. You can click the link below:

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G1831/exerchomai.htm

Looking at those six verses, the crux of Christ's declaration is not about creation but about having been with the Father (in His company) and sent by Him. In fact, in John 13:3 and 16:28, he went further to say that not only was he from God, but that he would also return to God. Of course this cannot mean that he is returning to the body of God from whence you say he was created. It simply means he is returning to heaven, to be reunited with God, in company and not body.

We can also look at 1 John 2:19 where a derivative of Exerchomai - "exēlthan" is used. Here, Apostle John said, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." So having come out or forth from something does not presume concord or unified purpose, neither does it even suggest creation. Rather John is disclaiming antichrists, even though they may at some point, been working with true disciples of Jesus Christ.

Personally, I don't think anyone can claim to totally understand the full nature of the creative process by which the Father JEHOVAH gave life to the Son Jesus. If you consider us humans for example, although scientists have done a lot to unravel the physical nature of man's reproductive or procreative process, the spiritual nature of man is almost a complete mystery. How does a spirit being birth another spirit being? How can a physical man even explain that?!

Your posit would be a very beautiful way to look at it though. Maybe comparable to the way a child emerges from the the very body of the mother, having been formed by the egg cells of both parents. Also similar to how Eve was created from the body of Adam and not entirely of herself. But to reiterate, I cannot arrive at that conclusion from available scripture.

That said, being perfect spiritual persons of the highest imaginable essence, I will want to believe that the productive process which birthed Christ must be one of utmost perfection. More perfect than whatever is humanly imaginable, even cloning. Hence he being the express image of God, possessing the fullness of the Father, being in the very nature of God Himself! Indeed, Christ is Almighty, but not the Almighty God. But we must remember that however we want to look at it, nothing is impossible with God!

From the Bible verse we can see that Jesus was referring to been born by God, because in that same verse he clarified that he was also sent by God eliminating any possibility of the word Exerchomai - "exēlthan" meaning to go forth or proceed as you assume.

Greek/Hebrew Definitions
Strong's #1831: exerchomai (pronounced ex-er'-khom-
ahee)
from 1537 and 2064; to issue (literally or figuratively):--
come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go
(abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread
abroad.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
exerchomai
1) to go or come forth of
1a) with mention of the place out of which one goes, or
the point from which he departs
1a1) of those who leave a place of their own accord
1a2) of those who are expelled or cast out
2) metaphorically
2a) to go out of an assembly, i.e. forsake it
2b) to come forth from physically, arise from, to be born
of
2c) to go forth from one' s power, escape from it in
safety
2d) to come forth (from privacy) into the world, before the
public, (of those who by novelty of opinion attract
attention)
2e) of things
2e1) of reports, rumours, messages, precepts
2e2) to be made known, declared
2e3) to be spread, to be proclaimed
2e4) to come forth
2e4a) emitted as from the heart or the mouth
2e4b) to flow forth from the body
2e4c) to emanate, issue
2e4c1) used of a sudden flash of lightning
2e4c2) used of a thing vanishing
2e4c3) used of a hope which has disappeared
Part of Speech: verb
Relation: from G1537 and G2064
Citing in TDNT: 2:678, 257
Usage:
This word is used 224 times:

blueAgent:
... considering the fact that Angels are also called Sons of God.

It is best for us to allow the Bible to interpret itself, leave it to say exactly what it says and put our own interpretation

The question is are angels called sons of God by God or in the Bible?

What are your facts and evidence, that in a clear, direct and detailed manner, leaving no room for confusion or doubt, saying fallen angels or angels are sons of God, hmm?

I am still wondering which Bible verse specifically says that angels are sons of God, because you will never find any verse in the Bible, that is, in a clear, direct and detailed manner, leaving no room for confusion or doubt, showing the bible saying or said angels presented themselves before God, or that angels are sons of God.

solite3:
Nope we do not Split God but rather we follow the evidence in the bible wherever it leads.
When Jesus commision his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit He surely wasnt Spliting God, but establishing the fact of the involvement of the whole persons in the Salvation of man.
God bless

I dont see how what you wrote above is following the evidence where it leads.

Involvement in salvation does not make them one in essence. If two persons are involved in accomplishing a task, does that necessary make them equal in everything

True, God and Jesus are of a divine nature, but they aren't the only ones with such nature, even the apostles when in heaven will have that nature. However, God's nature is superior in that He has always had immorality. Jesus hasn't. Jesus got immortality after his resurrection. I don't understand this insistent in Trinity when the Bible keep kicking against it.

How can you say that the son is omniscient when he does not know when the end will come. Even the holy spirit does not know. Nawa to u guys!

JMAN05:


I dont see how what you wrote above is following the evidence where it leads.

Involvement in salvation does not make them one in essence. If two persons are involved in accomplishing a task, does that necessary make them equal in everything

True, God and Jesus are of a divine nature, but they aren't the only ones with such nature, even the apostles when in heaven will have that nature. However, God's nature is superior in that He has always had immorality immortality. Jesus hasn't. Jesus got immortality after his resurrection. I don't understand this insistent in Trinity when the Bible keep kicking against it.

How can you say that the son is omniscient when he does not know when the end will come. Even the holy spirit does not know. Nawa to u guys!

Fixed

solite3:
Nope we do not Split God but rather we follow the evidence in the bible wherever it leads.
When Jesus commision his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit He surely wasnt Spliting God, but establishing the fact of the involvement of the whole persons in the Salvation of man.
God bless

That text of Matthew 28:19 was changed to give it the triune formula, and as a matter of fact, the correct reading of Matthew 28:19, should appear as seen read in Luke 24:47

JMAN05:
I dont see how what you wrote above is following the evidence where it leads.

Involvement in salvation does not make them one in essence. If two persons are involved in accomplishing a task, does that necessary make them equal in everything

True, God and Jesus are of a divine nature, but they aren't the only ones with such nature, even the apostles when in heaven will have that nature. However, God's nature is superior in that He has always had immorality. Jesus hasn't. Jesus got immortality after his resurrection. I don't understand this insistent in Trinity when the Bible keep kicking against it.

How can you say that the Son is omniscient when he does not know when the end will come. Even the holy spirit does not know. Nawa to u guys!

JMAN05, there are some things that GMB doesnt know about the course of Naija but if asked as PMB he will give you a definite answer. GMB and PMB are one and the same person, but operating in different capacities

The Son is always subjected to the Father and so will never upstage the Father. The Son, in terms of knowing when the end will come, will never divert this attention from the Father towards Himself, that will be an unrighteousness thing to be found in Jesus JMAN05.

blueAgent:



From the Bible verse we can see that Jesus was referring to been born by God, because in that same verse he clarified that he was also sent by God eliminating any possibility of the word Exerchomai - "exēlthan" meaning to go forth or proceed as you assume.

Greek/Hebrew Definitions
Strong's #1831: exerchomai (pronounced ex-er'-khom-
ahee)
from 1537 and 2064; to issue (literally or figuratively):--
come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go
(abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread
abroad.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
exerchomai
1) to go or come forth of
1a) with mention of the place out of which one goes, or
the point from which he departs
1a1) of those who leave a place of their own accord
1a2) of those who are expelled or cast out
2) metaphorically
2a) to go out of an assembly, i.e. forsake it
2b) to come forth from physically, arise from, to be born
of
2c) to go forth from one' s power, escape from it in
safety
2d) to come forth (from privacy) into the world, before the
public, (of those who by novelty of opinion attract
attention)
2e) of things
2e1) of reports, rumours, messages, precepts
2e2) to be made known, declared
2e3) to be spread, to be proclaimed
2e4) to come forth
2e4a) emitted as from the heart or the mouth
2e4b) to flow forth from the body
2e4c) to emanate, issue
2e4c1) used of a sudden flash of lightning
2e4c2) used of a thing vanishing
2e4c3) used of a hope which has disappeared
Part of Speech: verb
Relation: from G1537 and G2064
Citing in TDNT: 2:678, 257
Usage:
This word is used 224 times:

It would have been awesome if the Bible could actually interpret itself! Even when Christ spoke, he often had to explain and expatiate privately to his twelve. That is why one must look at scriptural words very carefully and compare to other references before arriving at a conclusion.

I believe we both agree that God the Father gave life to (born or created) Jesus the Son. You have gone further to contend that Christ literally came out of his Father JEHOVAH. The point I am making is that though your description of the manner of the creation of the Son is plausible and glorious, the Greek word "exerchomai" which you used to back your position does not arrive at that conclusion.

Both Strong's and Thayer's definitions agree that "exerchomai" can be used literally and figuratively. Layer's Greek Lexicon further states that "exerchomai" only refers to creation or being born of, when used metaphorically. That is Layer's assumption, not mine!

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
exerchomai
1) to go or come forth of
1a) with mention of the place out of which one goes, or
the point from which he departs
1a1) of those who leave a place of their own accord
1a2) of those who are expelled or cast out
2) metaphorically
2a) to go out of an assembly, i.e. forsake it
2b) to come forth from physically, arise from, to be born
of
2c) to go forth from one' s power, escape from it in
safety

To buttress this point, I provided John 13:3 and 16:28;

John 13:3 (NIV) - Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

John 16:28 (NIV) - I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

Both verses left out whether Jesus was sent by God or not. The pattern of the message is the same; Christ "came forth" from God and was returning to God. My argument then was that if "exerchomai" is to literally mean Christ emerging from the very body of God, would it then mean he was returning to the body of God? If anything, that would be mean that in heaven, Christ shares the same body with Father. We must not confuse different bodies sharing similar characteristics for different persons sharing the same body.

Also remember that in John 16(vs 29), even the disciples agreed that on this occasion, Christ was not speaking figuratively. That is why my conclusion is that "exerchomai", used in this text and by contemporary English, would be "being with or in the company" of somebody. The Word, who was with God, came to this world, and would be returning to be with God. Unlike your understanding of "exerchomai", this application is consistent with most of the other 218 times that it is used in the Bible.

I also used 1st John 2:19 to explain that one can "go forth, or out of" another and not be a messenger of the latter.

I really don't get why it is difficult for you to concur that Christ is an angel of God. The word "angel" from the Hebrew "malak" and the Greek "angelos" simply means a messenger. It is mostly used to describe supernatural heavenly beings but can also refer to human messengers.

As much as I totally agree that Jesus the Son is God, meaning he is "Almighty", that he is born of God Father and was created in the very nature of God, I cannot categorically arrive at your conclusions from the Bible. My argument is not that it is not possible, but that it is not conclusive from available scripture.

JMAN05:


I dont see how what you wrote above is following the evidence where it leads.

Involvement in salvation does not make them one in essence. If two persons are involved in accomplishing a task, does that necessary make them equal in everything

True, God and Jesus are of a divine nature, but they aren't the only ones with such nature, even the apostles when in heaven will have that nature. However, God's nature is superior in that He has always had immorality. Jesus hasn't. Jesus got immortality after his resurrection. I don't understand this insistent in Trinity when the Bible keep kicking against it.

How can you say that the son is omniscient when he does not know when the end will come. Even the holy spirit does not know. Nawa to u guys!

Watchtower organisation claims that jesus came invisibly in 1914 and chose it as the only one true religion.

Watchtower organisation also claims that the only way you can enter the new system/paradise earth and survive armageddon is to join the organisation and unquestionably obey its gb.

Watchtower organisation has taken the role of Jesus Christ in salvation. They even preach you don't need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. They say you have to join watchtower organisation, unquestionably obey anything their old men tell you and consider them as the only channel of communication between God and man today.

Their gb has even taken the role of the holy spirit. That's why JMAN05 feels other people can save people like jesus.

JMAN05:


I dont see how what you wrote above is following the evidence where it leads.

Involvement in salvation does not make them one in essence. If two persons are involved in accomplishing a task, does that necessary make them equal in everything

True, God and Jesus are of a divine nature, but they aren't the only ones with such nature, even the apostles when in heaven will have that nature. However, God's nature is superior in that He has always had immorality. Jesus hasn't. Jesus got immortality after his resurrection. I don't understand this insistent in Trinity when the Bible keep kicking against it.

How can you say that the son is omniscient when he does not know when the end will come. Even the holy spirit does not know. Nawa to u guys!

If we ask you to show us the bible passage that said God nature is superior to jesus nature because of immortality you wouldn't see.

Be using bible to always lie when these words you quoted are seen only in watchtower publications. Continue

blueAgent:
From the Bible verse we can see that Jesus was referring to been born by God, because in that same verse he clarified that he was also sent by God eliminating any possibility of the word Exerchomai - "exēlthan" meaning to go forth or proceed as you assume.

Greek/Hebrew Definitions
Strong's #1831: exerchomai (pronounced ex-er'-khom-
ahee)
from 1537 and 2064; to issue (literally or figuratively):--
come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go
(abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread
abroad.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
exerchomai
1) to go or come forth of
1a) with mention of the place out of which one goes, or
the point from which he departs
1a1) of those who leave a place of their own accord
1a2) of those who are expelled or cast out
2) metaphorically
2a) to go out of an assembly, i.e. forsake it
2b) to come forth from physically, arise from, to be born
of
2c) to go forth from one' s power, escape from it in
safety
2d) to come forth (from privacy) into the world, before the
public, (of those who by novelty of opinion attract
attention)
2e) of things
2e1) of reports, rumours, messages, precepts
2e2) to be made known, declared
2e3) to be spread, to be proclaimed
2e4) to come forth
2e4a) emitted as from the heart or the mouth
2e4b) to flow forth from the body
2e4c) to emanate, issue
2e4c1) used of a sudden flash of lightning
2e4c2) used of a thing vanishing
2e4c3) used of a hope which has disappeared
Part of Speech: verb
Relation: from G1537 and G2064
Citing in TDNT: 2:678, 257
Usage:
This word is used 224 times:

okosunehis:
It would have been awesome if the Bible could actually interpret itself! Even when Christ spoke, he often had to explain and expatiate privately to his twelve. That is why one must look at scriptural words very carefully and compare to other references before arriving at a conclusion.

I believe we both agree that God the Father gave life to (born or created) Jesus the Son. You have gone further to contend that Christ literally came out of his Father JEHOVAH. The point I am making is that though your description of the manner of the creation of the Son is plausible and glorious, the Greek word "exerchomai" which you used to back your position does not arrive at that conclusion.

Both Strong's and Thayer's definitions agree that "exerchomai" can be used literally and figuratively. Layer's Greek Lexicon further states that "exerchomai" only refers to creation or being born of, when used metaphorically. That is Layer's assumption, not mine!

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
exerchomai
1) to go or come forth of
1a) with mention of the place out of which one goes, or the point from which he departs
1a1) of those who leave a place of their own accord
1a2) of those who are expelled or cast out
2) metaphorically
2a) to go out of an assembly, i.e. forsake it
2b) to come forth from physically, arise from, to be born of
2c) to go forth from one' s power, escape from it in safety

To buttress this point, I provided John 13:3 and 16:28;

John 13:3 (NIV) - Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

John 16:28 (NIV) - I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

Both verses left out whether Jesus was sent by God or not. The pattern of the message is the same; Christ "came forth" from God and was returning to God. My argument then was that if "exerchomai" is to literally mean Christ emerging from the very body of God, would it then mean he was returning to the body of God? If anything, that would be mean that in heaven, Christ shares the same body with Father. We must not confuse different bodies sharing similar characteristics for different persons sharing the same body.

Also remember that in John 16(vs 29), even the disciples agreed that on this occasion, Christ was not speaking figuratively. That is why my conclusion is that "exerchomai", used in this text and by contemporary English, would be "being with or in the company" of somebody. The Word, who was with God, came to this world, and would be returning to be with God. Unlike your understanding of "exerchomai", this application is consistent with most of the other 218 times that it is used in the Bible.

I also used 1st John 2:19 to explain that one can "go forth, or out of" another and not be a messenger of the latter.

I really don't get why it is difficult for you to concur that Christ is an angel of God. The word "angel" from the Hebrew "malak" and the Greek "angelos" simply means a messenger. It is mostly used to describe supernatural heavenly beings but can also refer to human messengers.

As much as I totally agree that Jesus the Son is God, meaning he is "Almighty", that he is born of God Father and was created in the very nature of God, I cannot categorically arrive at your conclusions from the Bible. My argument is not that it is not possible, but that it is not conclusive from available scripture.

MuttleyLaff:
"Jesus said to them,
“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God;
nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me."
- John 8:42

"Exerchomai" is the Greek original word translated as "proceeded forth". By definition, it means, to go or come out of, with mention of the place out of which one goes, or of the point from which one departs. John 8:42 above, makes no mistake, where from Jesus proceeded forth and came from.

blueAgent & okosunehis, Jesus Christ is God and even god sef, just as I've earlier said and especially if that's how or a way Hairyrapunzel understands to put it.

No, I am not blueAgent & okosunehis, implying that Jesus and God are the same entity, but I am emphatically saying that Jesus and God are the same entity.

blueAgent & okosunehisit , listen and watch this. I put on different attire colours to reflect my mood and image I am trying to project across. I could put on a red dress to make a statement that I am fiery, vibrant and lively. The colours are not me, they are images reflecting certain aspects of me. It's the same with God, the maleness and femaleness is not God, they are just constructs made in the image of God. God really isnt male nor female

We all know what kind of image one is projecting when wearing black colours, it could be for mourning or for trying to look sexy

The "the only begotten" means the only person uniquely gotten this way. The phrase has nothing to do with God biologically giving birth to Jesus, as a mother, like women do.

blueAgent & okosunehis, God is formless. God is a Spirit, and so has no form. God however does have masculine and feminine distinctive personalities plus characteristics associated with man and woman

Before either of youse step and slip on my "God is formless" banana skin comment, let me make myself clearer with the comment, by adding to it, that God is shapeless and formless like water. When you pour water in a cup, it becomes the cup. When you pour water in a bottle, it becomes the bottle. When you pour water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. When you pour water into a drum, it becomes the drum of water. That is why when Moses asked God who should he say sent him, if asked by the Israelites, God said to him, say, I AM I AM sent you.

I AM I AM, in that narrative, means I shall be that I shall be, also means whatever it is necessary for God to be, that, God will be. God willl be a pillar of cloud in the day and become a pillar of fire to give them light at night. God is formless, yet God can take on any form. I know it sounds like an oxymoron thing to say it that way, but God, though truly is formless, can manifest Himself in any form, just as in that Nebucadnezzer fiery furnace and etcetera

Think of God, this way, H₂0, sent itself into the world. H₂0 caused and allowed itself to be visible as solid ice.

Christ cannot share the same body with God the Father, because God is formless. God has no clear definite shape or size. Jesus Christ is the product of God projecting Himself as a human being in the person of Jesus Christ on earth. Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God

Though Jesus was God, He did not think of equality with God, as something to cling to.
Instead, He gave up his divine privileges. He took the humble position of a servant and was born as a human being, and so God appeared on earth, in human form, as in, the person of Jesus Christ, His Son

blueAgent & okosunehis, God can send Himself, did send Himself to earth, in the form of Jesus Christ. God simultaneously can be in more than one place at a time (i.e. God can be in Heaven and on earth, at the same time) Note that, Jesus didnt correct people that addressed Him as God, for example, where and when said: "My Lord, My God" to Him.

Its often said, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. Something to be done right is exactly what it's all about and so what God did. This is a matter of the classsic diy aka Do-It-Yourself.

God looked for someone who could build walls or looked for someone to stand in the breach in His presence on behalf of the world so that it won't be destroyed, but He found no one and so God is lumbered with, doing a classic Do-It-Yourself by sending Himself to carry out the redemptive work.

This will explain what the bible said and/or is saying about "begotten" The word translated as "begotten", is the greek word "monogene" "Monogene", means, one and only or better still, one of a kind

Now the word "monogene", is a combination of the root words: "mono" (one or only) and "genos" (of a class or kind) hence "begotten", in the context, or "monogene" in the context means "the only of its kind"

Now, "monogene" occurred also, when similarly used over Isaac, and that is where and when Isaac was referred to, as only son, even when Abraham already had an older son, Ishmael

Isaac was unique, was one and only or one of a kind son. Unique in the sense that, an impotent man and menopaused woman had a child, the promised son, Isaac (i.e. child in a class of its own, this miracle never again has been repeated)

To just clear each other, "begotten" in the Jesus' context isn’t about procreation or some fantasied sexual intercourse

Jesus, is the last Adam, and second man. The first man Adam became a living soul, whereas, Jesus, the last Adam, became a life-giving spirit

The first man, Adam, is of the earth, earthy, came from earth; while the second man, Jesus Christ is from heaven, came from heaven. Alleluia.

"And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge,
and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none
(i.e. I looked for someone who might rebuild the wall of righteousness that guards the land.
I searched for someone to stand in the gap in the wall so I wouldn’t have to destroy the land, but I found no one.)"
- Ezekiel 22:30

"He saw that there was no man—He was amazed that there was no one—to intercede;
so His own arm brought salvation, and His own righteousness sustained Him."
- Isaiah 59:16

"I was amazed to see that no one intervened to help the oppressed.
So I myself stepped in to save them with my strong arm, and my wrath sustained me
(i.e. I looked, but there was no one to help; I was shocked because there was no one offering support.
So my right arm accomplished deliverance or achieved salvation for me, my raging anger drove me on)"
- Isaiah 63:5

blueAgent & okosunehis, you must have quite a lot of times, heard the saying that "If you want something done right, do it yourself", well none, nobody, no angel out of the whole angelic hosts of heaven, nor no man out of the whole world wide, offered to accept the challenge to help man get returned back to man's original status before the fall, so God resorted to DIY

blueAgent & okosunehis, you know that Christ, means Saviour, right?. So if you do, how then do suppose God will be able to pull this off this God's redemptive work, if Christ isnt God and man, hmm? Give this some thought blueAgent & okosunehis

"Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the LORD of hosts."
Malachi 3:1

Of course, Jesus is an angel, Malachi 3:1 confirms Him being a Messenger. This is God sending Himself on an errand. Alleluia.

JMAN05:


I dont see how what you wrote above is following the evidence where it leads.

Involvement in salvation does not make them one in essence. If two persons are involved in accomplishing a task, does that necessary make them equal in everything

True, God and Jesus are of a divine nature, but they aren't the only ones with such nature, even the apostles when in heaven will have that nature. However, God's nature is superior in that He has always had immorality. Jesus hasn't. Jesus got immortality after his resurrection. I don't understand this insistent in Trinity when the Bible keep kicking against it.

How can you say that the son is omniscient when he does not know when the end will come. Even the holy spirit does not know. Nawa to u guys!

what are you saying? Angels do not have God's nature.


Hebrews 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

This verse already told you that angels has their own nature.
Jehovah witness organisation is a blasphemous and idolatrous one.
I spit on that filt called Jehovah witness organisation.
Jesus never partook of God's nature rather his nature is that of God and that made him God Almighty.


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Mal 3:1  Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 

the verse is talking of two messangers

the word come Jesus speaking, and referring to john the baptist:
I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me

and now referring to Himself:
and the Lord, the messanger of the covenant shall come


Mat 11:10  For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 
Mat 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.



but mainly what i want to say is:


hebrew:

מַלְאָךְ
mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, king, messenger.


greek:

ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: -messenger.



malak and aggelos can mean: messanger, angel, prophet, priest, teacher, ambassador, king, pastor, etc.
depending on context

Jesus was a messanger for His Father God, but Jesus was not a angelic being, Jesus created the angels and everything that is created, john 1:3, col 1:16-17

Jesus is God in the flesh, not a created angel:

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



john the baptist was called a (aggelos) but he wasn't a angelic being, he was a human messanger

Mat 11:10  For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (aggelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 
Mat 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 


angels can be messangers, they can also be combatants etc. whatever God want's them to be
messanger = angel, only if that messanger is an angel

solite3:
what are you saying? Angels do not have God's nature.


Hebrews 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

This verse already told you that angels has their own nature.
Jehovah witness organisation is a blasphemous and idolatrous one.
I spit on that filt called Jehovah witness organisation.

May Jehovah forgive the solite3 FRAUD theorist worshipper of man made triune deity.

You always bring your FILTHY wayo and IBERIBEISM to deceive yourself.


* FACTS + EVIDENCE *
Hebrews 2:16..
1).
New American Standard Bible
For assuredly He does not give help to
angels, but He gives help to the descendant
of Abraham.
*2)
New King James Version
For indeed He does not give aid to angels,
but He does give aid to the seed of
Abraham.

*3)
King James Bible
For verily he took not on him the nature of
angels; but he took on him the seed of
Abraham.
** 4)
Christian Standard Bible
For it is clear that he does not reach out to
help angels, but to help Abraham's offspring."
**5)
Contemporary English Version
Jesus clearly did not come to help angels,
but he did come to help Abraham's
descendants."

Your KJV quote is a FRAUD...

Janosky:


FRAUD theorist worshipper of man made triune deity.

You always bring your FILTHY wayo and IBERIBEISM to deceive yourself.



Your KJV quote is a FRAUD...

Hebrews 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.


™lying pharisee deceiver false jw Janosky/OneJ

tell me:

what is fraud about the Word come Jesus Christ not putting on the nature of angels
but becoming flesh(man), the seed of abraham


Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



oh tormented unmeek one:
Mat_5:5  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Rev_20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Janosky:


May Jehovah forgive the solite3 FRAUD theorist worshipper of man made triune deity.

You always bring your FILTHY wayo and IBERIBEISM to deceive yourself.


* FACTS + EVIDENCE *
Hebrews 2:16..
1).
New American Standard Bible
For assuredly He does not give help to
angels, but He gives help to the descendant
of Abraham.
*2)
New King James Version
For indeed He does not give aid to angels,
but He does give aid to the seed of
Abraham.

*3)
King James Bible
For verily he took not on him the nature of
angels; but he took on him the seed of
Abraham.
** 4)
Christian Standard Bible
For it is clear that he does not reach out to
help angels, but to help Abraham's offspring."
**5)
Contemporary English Version
Jesus clearly did not come to help angels,
but he did come to help Abraham's
descendants."

Your KJV quote is a FRAUD...

it is obvious you prefer lies to truth.

Jehovah witness Delusion
Hebrews 1:4-5, 8-14 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The writer of Hebrews clearly stated that Jesus is much better than the Angels meaning He does not belong in the same category with the angels making him not angel but someone superior.



For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
This question is as a result of people who taught Jesus is an angel or belong in the same category with them, God had never said to any Angel that they are his begotten sons.






But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
But to which of the angels said he at any times, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This reveals the person that the Son is.
This is a reference to psalm 45 and psalm 102 which refer to no other but yahweh. The act of creation were done by yahweh alone and he alone receives the praise for it but here, the writer obviously points out that God called the Son, God, whose throne would continue for all eternity, no throne, principality or power both of men or of angels can stand till eternity only that of God himself.
Secondly, the act of creation is directly attributed to the Son making him Yahweh. As yshweh alone made the heavens no other being was with him.

Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Note the above has already crushed the idea put forward by Jehovah witnes that God used another being to create all (other) things that yaweh only created one thing himself, ridiculous


Angels are just ministering spirit while Jesus is not.

Infact Christ needed to humble himself to take upon him the form of a servant.

Philippians 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Angels are all servant from the highest rank to the lowest rank their honor and position is to as a servant.
Christ originally was not a servant meaning he was not a angel or any creature.

Psalms 119:91 They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants.

All creation are called God's servant but christ was never a servant until he took the form of it meaning he was never part of the creation but became part of the creation

Jehovah witness organisation is an obomination.

solite3:


Hebrews 1:4-5, 8-14 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The writer of Hebrews clearly stated that Jesus is much better than the Angels meaning He does not belong in the same category with the angels making him not angel but someone superior.



For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
This question is as a result of people who taught Jesus is an angel or belong in the same category with them, God had never said to any Angel that they are his begotten sons.






But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
But to which of the angels said he at any times, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This reveals the person that the Son is.
This is a reference to psalm 45 and psalm 102 which refer to no other but yahweh. The act of creation were done by yahweh alone and he alone receives the praise for it but here, the writer obviously points out that God called the Son, God, whose throne would continue for all eternity, no throne, principality or power both of men or of angels can stand till eternity only that of God himself.
Secondly, the act of creation is directly attributed to the Son making him Yahweh. As yshweh alone made the heavens no other being was with him.

Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Note the above has already crushed the idea put forward by Jehovah witnes that God used another being to create all (other) things that yaweh only created one thing himself, ridiculous


Angels are just ministering spirit while Jesus is not.

Infact Christ needed to humble himself to take upon him the form of a servant.

Philippians 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Angels are all servant from the highest rank to the lowest rank their honor and position is to as a servant.
Christ originally was not a servant meaning he was not a angel or any creature.

Psalms 119:91 They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants.

All creation are called God's servant but christ was never a servant until he took the form of it meaning he was never part of the creation but became part of the creation

Solite3 Pharisee POO....."the act of creation is directly attributed to the Son making him Yahweh. As yshweh alone made the heavens no other being was with him."

Who is the God that anointed your Yahweh in Hebrew 1:9?

Matt 3:16,17, brain dead Pharisee, did Yahweh call himself "my son"?

Who gave Simon Peter the revelation in Matthew 16:13-17?
Isaiah 44:24, Jehovah takes the glory.
Gen1:27, Jehovah created man in His own image and likeness after HE said "Let us make man"
PROOF, Jehovah worked with another being. God created the world "THROUGH"( = Greek dia= by means of) His son. John 1:3. Hebrews 1:1,2. Colossians 1:15,16.
You no get sense ,solite3 FRAUD.

solite3:
it is obvious you prefer lies to truth.

Hebrew 2:16
New King James Version
For indeed He does not give aid to
angels,
but He does give aid to the seed of
Abraham."

You have exposed your mumu FRAUD.

Janosky:


Solite3 Pharisee POO....."the act of creation is directly attributed to the Son making him Yahweh. As yshweh alone made the heavens no other being was with him."

Who is the God that anointed your Yahweh in Hebrew 1:9?

Matt 3:16,17, brain dead Pharisee, did Yahweh call himself "my son"?

Who gave Simon Peter the revelation in Matthew 16:13-17?
Isaiah 44:24, Jehovah takes the glory.
Gen1:27, Jehovah created man in His own image and likeness after HE said "Let us make man"
PROOF, Jehovah worked with another being. God created the world "THROUGH"( = Greek dia= by means of) His son. John 1:3. Hebrews 1:1,2. Colossians 1:15,16.
You no get sense ,solite3 FRAUD.

the truth hurts so much, no wonder you resulted to insult. All your blabbing can never cover the truth

Janosky:

Hebrew 2:16
New King James Version
For indeed He does not give aid to
angels,
but He does give aid to the seed of
Abraham."

You have exposed your mumu FRAUD.

kjv ssys christ did not take upon himself the nature of angels

MuttleyLaff:


Think of God, this way, H₂0, sent itself into the world. H₂0 caused and allowed itself to be visible as solid ice.

Christ cannot share the same body with God the Father, because God is formless. God has no clear definite shape or size. Jesus Christ is the product of God projecting Himself as a human being in the person of Jesus Christ on earth. Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God

Though Jesus was God, He did not think of equality with God, as something to cling to.
Instead, He gave up his divine privileges. He took the humble position of a servant and was born as a human being, and so God appeared on earth, in human form, as in, the person of Jesus Christ, His Son

blueAgent & okosunehis, God can send Himself, did send Himself to earth, in the form of Jesus Christ. God simultaneously can be in more than one place at a time (i.e. God can be in Heaven and on earth, at the same time) Note that, Jesus didnt correct people that addressed Him as God, for example, where and when said: "My Lord, My God" to Him.

Its often said, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. Something to be done right is exactly what it's all about and so what God did. This is a matter of the classsic diy aka Do-It-Yourself.

God looked for someone who could build walls or looked for someone to stand in the breach in His presence on behalf of the world so that it won't be destroyed, but He found no one and so God is lumbered with, doing a classic Do-It-Yourself by sending Himself to carry out the redemptive work.

This will explain what the bible said and/or is saying about "begotten" The word translated as "begotten", is the greek word "monogene" "Monogene", means, one and only or better still, one of a kind

Now the word "monogene", is a combination of the root words: "mono" (one or only) and "genos" (of a class or kind) hence "begotten", in the context, or "monogene" in the context means "the only of its kind"

Now, "monogene" occurred also, when similarly used over Isaac, and that is where and when Isaac was referred to, as only son, even when Abraham already had an older son, Ishmael

Isaac was unique, was one and only or one of a kind son. Unique in the sense that, an impotent man and menopaused woman had a child, the promised son, Isaac (i.e. child in a class of its own, this miracle never again has been repeated)

To just clear each other, "begotten" in the Jesus' context isn’t about procreation or some fantasied sexual intercourse

Jesus, is the last Adam, and second man. The first man Adam became a living soul, whereas, Jesus, the last Adam, became a life-giving spirit

The first man, Adam, is of the earth, earthy, came from earth; while the second man, Jesus Christ is from heaven, came from heaven. Alleluia.

"And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge,
and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none
(i.e. I looked for someone who might rebuild the wall of righteousness that guards the land.
I searched for someone to stand in the gap in the wall so I wouldn’t have to destroy the land, but I found no one.)/i]"
- Ezekiel 22:30

"[i]He saw that there was no man—He was amazed that there was no one—to intercede;
so His own arm brought salvation, and His own righteousness sustained Him."
- Isaiah 59:16

"I was amazed to see that no one intervened to help the oppressed.
So I myself stepped in to save them with my strong arm, and my wrath sustained me
(i.e. I looked, but there was no one to help; I was shocked because there was no one offering support.
So my right arm accomplished deliverance or achieved salvation for me, my raging anger drove me on)"
- Isaiah 63:5

blueAgent & okosunehis, you must have quite a lot of times, heard the saying that "If you want something done right, do it yourself", well none, nobody, no angel out of the whole angelic hosts of heaven, nor no man out of the whole world wide, offered to accept the challenge to help man get returned back to man's original status before the fall, so God resorted to DIY

blueAgent & okosunehis, you know that Christ, means Saviour, right?. So if you do, how then do suppose God will be able to pull this off this God's redemptive work, if Christ isnt God and man, hmm? Give this some thought blueAgent & okosunehis

"Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the LORD of hosts."
Malachi 3:1

Of course, Jesus is an angel, Malachi 3:1 confirms Him being a Messenger. This is God sending Himself on an errand. Alleluia.

Why have you decided to do this? I am almost overwhelmed. You have brought in so many issues I don't even know where to begin! Let me try and go with your sequence but I won't address more than three issues I find disputable so we don't get lost in the discussion.

Your first analogy about water; "H₂0, sent itself into the world. H₂0 caused and allowed itself to be visible as solid ice." When a mass of liquid H₂0 is turned partly or wholly into gas(steam) or solid(ice), the initial mass is reduced by a corresponding measure, right? When God created Christ in heaven, it did not reduce His person. Neither was His authority or excellence diminished when Christ was sent to earth. I hope you can see the cracks in your illustration. When a man and a woman come together to procreate, though a new creature emerges, it does not diminish the sources from whence it is created. So creation(whether heavenly or earthly) and change of state of matter are not relatable.

Next, I agree when you say God cannot share the same body with Christ, for different reasons though. In Genesis 1:26, God, speaking to His creative agent Logos(or Christ) did not say, "let us make man in your own image." (Jesus Christ, right from the beginning of creation was a different person sharing similar characteristics with God, his father). Rather, God's statement showed clearly that He was speaking to someone who shared a similar appearance with him, hence the statement; "Let us make man in our own image..." So God is not formless. Something/someone that has a definite image cannot be formless.

Rather, it is the Spirit of God (the Spirit which is not a person) that can be said to be formless. From the same Genesis 1, we are told that the spirit was already hovering on the surface of the earth. It is the spirit that took the form of a pillar of cloud to guide the Israelites through the wilderness. The same spirit can even be transferred from physical person to physical person by mere laying of hands. The Holy Spirit is not a person and has never appeared as a person: It is a force (as best as we humans might describe it) that emanates from the person of JEHOVAH the Father.

Let me move on to Christ being an angel. Though the word "angel" is mostly used to describe supernatural (spiritual) beings, it simply means messenger. God can never be described as an angel, even though He is a supernatural being. Christ on the other hand, being God's chief messenger is an angel.

Please consider this - When a King decides to leave his throne and move to the battle front, he becomes a soldier. That does not make the King a messenger because the messenger and the "messengee" (pardon, for lack of a better word) cannot be the same person. If a king decides to perform a task that he would normally assign to a servant, he has not become a servant by doing that. He is still and very much the king.

So when God decides to rescue mankind from the consequences of our own failures, He did not send Himself and became a messenger of Himself. The Father JEHOVAH did not, for convenience sake, create a new person from Himself and called him Jesus so that He(the Father) can manipulate the existing order and render redemptive death on behalf of humans. God did not send Himself to earth, he sent someone who was already existing as His Son and whom He loved so much. That why it was a sacrifice, for both God and and for Jesus Christ.

This brings me to Christ being the "only begotten" Son of God. Your analysis of the word is quite agreeable; Jesus Christ is a Son of an only kind. This is because Christ is the only direct creation of God and upon whom all other creatures derive their existence. Not only were all other things created by Christ, they were also created [b]for [/b]him.

Like you rightly said, "monogene" also applies to Isaac being begotten of Abraham because of the miraculous nature of his birth and the privileges bestowed on him were singularly inherited from his father.

okosunehis:


Why have you decided to do this? I am almost overwhelmed. You have brought in so many issues I don't even know where to begin! Let me try and go with your sequence but I won't address more than three issues I find disputable so we don't get lost in the discussion.

Your first analogy about water; "H₂0, sent itself into the world. H₂0 caused and allowed itself to be visible as solid ice." When a mass of liquid H₂0 is turned partly or wholly into gas(steam) or solid(ice), the initial mass is reduced by a corresponding measure, right? When God created Christ in heaven, it did not reduce His person. Neither was His authority or excellence diminished when Christ was sent to earth. I hope you can see the cracks in your illustration. When a man and a woman come together to procreate, though a new creature emerges, it does not diminish the sources from whence it is created. So creation(whether heavenly or earthly) and change of state of matter are not relatable.

Next, I agree when you say God cannot share the same body with Christ, for different reasons though. In Genesis 1:26, God, speaking to His creative agent Logos(or Christ) did not say, "let us make man in your own image." (Jesus Christ, right from the beginning of creation was a different person sharing similar characteristics with God, his father). Rather, God's statement showed clearly that He was speaking to someone who shared a similar appearance with him, hence the statement; "Let us make man in our own image..." So God is not formless. Something/someone that has a definite image cannot be formless.

Rather, it is the Spirit of God (the Spirit which is not a person) that can be said to be formless. From the same Genesis 1, we are told that the spirit was already hovering on the surface of the earth. It is the spirit that took the form of a pillar of cloud to guide the Israelites through the wilderness. The same spirit can even be transferred from physical person to physical person by mere laying of hands. The Holy Spirit is not a person and has never appeared as a person: It is a force (as best as we humans might describe it) that emanates from the person of JEHOVAH the Father.

Let me move on to Christ being an angel. Though the word "angel" is mostly used to describe supernatural (spiritual) beings, it simply means messenger. God can never be described as an angel, even though He is a supernatural being. Christ on the other hand, being God's chief messenger is an angel.

Please consider this - When a King decides to leave his throne and move to the battle front, he becomes a soldier. That does not make the King a messenger because the messenger and the "messengee" (pardon, for lack of a better word) cannot be the same person. If a king decides to perform a task that he would normally assign to a servant, he has not become a servant by doing that. He is still and very much the king.

So when God decides to rescue mankind from the consequences of our own failures, He did not send Himself and became a messenger of Himself. The Father JEHOVAH did not, for convenience sake, create a new person from Himself and called him Jesus so that He(the Father) can manipulate the existing order and render redemptive death on behalf of humans. God did not send Himself to earth, he sent someone who was already existing as His Son and whom He loved so much. That why it was a sacrifice, for both God and and for Jesus Christ.

This brings me to Christ being the "only begotten" Son of God. Your analysis of the word is quite agreeable; Jesus Christ is a Son of an only kind. This is because Christ is the only direct creation of God and upon whom all other creatures derive their existence. Not only were all other things created by Christ, they were also created [b]for [/b]him.

Like you rightly said, "monogene" also applies to Isaac being begotten of Abraham because of the miraculous nature of his birth and the privileges bestowed on him were singularly inherited from his father.

I thought god alone created all things?

solite3:
kjv ssys christ did not take upon himself the nature of angels

https://www.bible.com/bible/114/HEB.2.16.NKJV

Solite3 LIAR !!

solite3:
the truth hurts so much, no wonder you resulted to insult. All your blabbing can never cover the truth

Solite3 POO.
Those questions too Big for your Pharisees brain nau... Rather than answer them,you resort to diversionary tactics.