Baby4U2/Welborn,

I agree absolutely with the last post.

But "Give to get"? Is "God supplying all our need" predicated on us giving to Him first?
What about the very poor? What about those who bless/help in other ways??
Say I give time, what do I get in return?

Shouldn't that be "give to bless" or "give to honour"

"Give to get" too me has prosperity gospel writtern all over it.

God bless

i like this thread, for once i see mature people that i arguing without cursing each other out. monogue nice work. although i kind of hate this thread but u've been keeping it real, and i understand they are your own opinions. .
@wellborn, thanks alot i needed some help here it seemed like only me and mekaozi where outcast. lol
God bless u too TV01. there are many answers to that i wish i could communicate more, i just don't like writing too many long post. its not my style. lol. i'll holla back at u and Monogue when i've written down my answer properly. and remember they are just somethings we cannot understand. there are still many things i don't understand too.

No probs sister baby4u2, In your own time.Webchat never ends,

Phew, I was a little busy, so my rejoinder came in a bit late. But thank God for a good day at the office.  

TV01:

Baby4U2/Welborn,

I agree absolutely with the last post.

But "Give to get"? Is "God supplying all our need" predicated on us giving to Him first?
What about the very poor? What about those who bless/help in other ways??
Say I give time, what do I get in return?

Shouldn't that be "give to bless" or "give to honour"

"Give to get" too me has prosperity gospel writtern all over it.

God bless

@TV01,

Give and you'll get - that is prosperity taught by Jesus Himself. You don't agree? Then please elucidate this for me:

Luke 6:38 - "Give, and[b] it shall be given unto you[/b]; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

You may have a problem with prosperity as taught in God's Word, but others like me don't. I used to struggle with this teaching until God used a crisis in my life to teach me the divine principle that anyone who gives receives again. I have experienced His goodness again and again. Your problem is that you take a stance against this issue just because many people have abused the teaching on this and many other issues.

However, the balance of Scripture shows that just because God prospers His people, it does not mean that we are called to focus on and emphasize "prosperity" - that kind of misapplication is largely responsible for the idea behind the "prosperity gospel" message, and I have the feel that you're confusing the two. What is called "prosperity gospel" is an emphasis on material prosperity with very little attention (if any) on the essence of Christianity. This materialism is discountenanced in Scripture in so many verses; e.g. -

Phil. 3:18-19 >>  "For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

I Tim. 6:17 >>  Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy."

No, God's supplying all our need is not predicated on us giving to Him first. But He actually says that giving yields such grace for receiving again in a "running over" proportions. God did not save His children in order to starve them; and if non-Christians can be wealthy, why should spirituality in the Christian faith be synonymous with poverty? The grave mistake so many of us are making is that we want to be smarter than God Himself - when He says clearly in His word that a giver is a receiver, we come up with a dialogue to dissuade our clever minds from applying what He says. This is why those who are complainers are not receivers. No insults meant; but I'll appeal to you to unload your mind of such reasoning and see the transformation that can happen to you.

Mongue:

Please help and enlighten me so that I can become a supporter of prosperity preaching!! Any facts and figures on where the billions are going would shut people like me up more than saying let's not judge the pastor leave it to God,

Now, my dear Mongue, 

First, God does not seek "a supporter of prosperity preaching" - He doesn't need you or anyone else to support what He's doing; rather, He seeks sincere hearts and true worshippers. . . and He blesses them all the same.

What you have written may seem clever, but it is a mix-up that is at best misdirected. Let me make it clear that I don't support the idea that people should make money by religion - whether Christian, Islam, Free Thinkers, New Ageism, Babalawo, or whatever. Jesus frowned at this bane of religious money making phenomenon in His earthly ministry - in one radical moment, He drove out the merchants in the Temple (Matt. 21:12-13). You'll be surprised that some of His disciples thought He was going to destroy the Roman government of His day ("those brutal politicians" -  the equivalent of the "Roman Occupation" in the land of Israel, as the Iraqis would say of the Americans). But no, He would make them understand that He was not a social disturber - and that's why, even though He was "free" and not obliged to pay taxes, He nonetheless acquiesced and sent Peter to do so on His behalf (Matt. 17:24-27).

However, there is a place for the contributions of believers by their financial giving for the poor (II Cor. 9:1ff).

Your position is sad by suggesting that  Politicians and Pastors are responsible for your troubles. . .you make it sound like all Nigerians are either politicians or Christians. I dare say that there are far more non-Christians and non-political Nigerians who are holding themselves back! It is really unwise for anyone to want to lay a huge weight of the blame on pastors (good or bad) or politicians (astute or criminal). Many Nigerians by default are prone to pointing accusing fingers on others; what are they doing by and for themselves to better their own lives? Ask these same people who they are, story is always the same - zero! It's not surprising therefore that such will be the first to look for others to blame - if it's not their great aunty somewhere, or their jealous neighbour doing 'juju' or 'jazz' for them, or someone somewhere 'remoting' them, then it has to be politicians and pastors. Please!

There are far more criminals than 'politicians and pastors' - we as Nigerians do not trust our own National polity and identity. We don't have to take our billboards to Aso Rock or National Assembly. Our lecturers are corrupt - no one is asking them to account for the money they collect on "handouts" they poorly plagiarise and force on students. God has blessed me (praise Him - and I pray that many more Nigerians will be as blessed) so that I have been able to travel to 7 European countries and USA & Canada. The experience is the same everywhere - if you're seeking admission into their university, you go sweat, because they have it posted on the internet and their faculties that "Nigerian applicants are to strictly adhere to a different rule." Interpretation: they don't trust your kpali - no matter whether you went to first generation universities or bagged a first class.

The Law Enforcement agencies in Nigeria are no exempt from your blame. People in public and private sectors of our economy are equally corrupt - bankers and financiers, businessmen/women, engineers in the oil industry, immigration and customs, pharmaceutical and medical practitioners . . . infact, tell me who in Nigeria today is not to blame for "holding Nigeria back"? You may not agree, but your whimpering is actually contributing to Nigeria's backwardness.

Until we as Nigerians stop pointing accusing fingers at others, we will remain where we are. In 1999, I quipped to a friend abroad, "Obasanjo will seek a third term, unless something happens." Her answer? "Oh, c'mon - the guy's clean and genuine, he's not going to do 'at (sic)." Politicians - especially Nigerian politicians, will continue to be what they are, and there's no golden ray on the horizon that they'll get any better - unless, of course, something happens. YOU will still continue to accuse them, unless, of course, something happens. Same with unscrupulous pastors - they will still go on with their schemes - unless something happens. Churches will still emerge, and some will have their licences revoked. Whatever they say or do is not my headache - I've stopped insulting my dignity with petty accusations and long started living above the problem of unscrupulous politicians, pastors, lecturers, law enforcement agents, bankers, businessmen and -women, engineers, babalawo, and fake doctors. And I don't care the tirade that will follow this post   

Nigeria, live!! Your problem is not the politicians and pastors - you are your problem!

The author of this thread is very right, these are the two most corrupt groups in Nigeria, and one day it will catch up to them. The only difference is that there are still very few good chosen pastors left. But there is hardly one decent politician.

My guy just made me register in here before I decide to. Anyway, I am already registered, and I think that from the few times I've been & spent here, that it quite looks like a nice place to be at. It's quite a cool site. Biggups to whoever runs it. Biggups big time.

Anyway, I was moved to register just to hail my mayn, Mongue. Mayn, u d man. I used to think I am d only one who thinks like this. But then let me make a few comments.

These so called pastors are not only busy messing around, they are double evil. I mean to say that they are blocking the only way to our freedom. No doubt that God, & Jesus is the Saviour. He is the only One that can save not just us but the whole wide world. So, anybody that chokes up your way to Him is actually doin you real damage.

And that is exactly what these folks are doing. As far as I am concerned, they are actually the chiefest of devils. They lead you astray & tell u to rejoice that u have found the true way. They give u a false confidence, and there is no greater harm than that. When Christians are heavily deficient in fulfilling God's requirements, they instead of pointing that out to them and encouraging them to improve, rather hail them & tell them that they have actually satisfied all God's requirements, and that there is no further room for improvement but that rather that it is God now that is failing in His own part of the bargain, that God may have just decided not to answer their prayers; or maybe it might be that perhaps He didn't hear them very well. In otherwords that they should now pray harder, or maybe shout louder, or maybe be more violent.

When that fails, they tell them(us) that maybe they(we) should just act as if they have gotten what they wanted - if u don't have money, if anybody asks u, say u do have it; if u are sick, if they ask u, say u are well. But you know what you are, stupid. Or they may ask you to go up to God & snatch what you want from Him - how else do you explain all the claiming that is goin on everywhere.

Now, this is where the entire hullabaloo is located. They have brought us all to this point & are holding us down right here. We are meant to believe that everything is alright between us & God, that we have fulfilled all His behavioural & otherwise requirements. & what that does to us is lock us up in self-delusion. Instead of we striving to better our behaviours & thoughts, we are rather busy living in holier than thou self-delusions. We are also busy dissipating wasted energies battling devils & callin down holy ghost fire(this should be a topic for anothe day).

You do not overcome the devil by your power or yourself. You do not take on him by yourself. You do not fight him directly. You fight him by running to God & He protecting you by His powers. You fight by resisting to do evil, by resisting to break the laws of God; and striving to do good, and striving to keep the laws of God. This is the only place the battle is either won or lost. The rest of the other places just follow suit. If u are a sinner & you are trying to destroy the devil, you are a big fool. God has made the devil to torment you when you deviate from serving Him. So it is even against the Will of God that a sinner be delivered, and come to think of it, that is impossible.

So, all those folks fighting the devil while they are not fighting to live righteous lives are deceiving themselves, as far as I am concerned. & let me tell u, there is no greater key than the one these so called pastors have used to lock us. With this key, we shall hardly be delivered. They say a fool is he who doesn't know & doesn't know that he doesn't know. If he knows that he doesn't know then he will seek for help, but his self delusion in thinking that he knows keeps him perpetually far from seeking knowledge.

We do not seek to live righteously anymore because our 'pastors' have indoctrinated us into thinking that we are already that. But unless we are actually righteous, God can never deliver us. God is always for the righteous & always against the unrighteous - check the Bible (a Book nobody reads).

So, u see, they might actually be working to have the opposite effect on us - they may actually be the devil we all think that we are fighting. Christ said, (paraphrase) you Pharisees are quick to make people converts, but then you make them the more candidates of hell than they were before. Let me catch my breath here.

welcome, you are not the only person that feels this way, religion has become the opium of the people, if not they would have stormed lagos island and asokoro, maitama and aso rock and killed all the rich people for naija lol

me i have learnt to stop talking, my own is to look and shake my head and believe i have seen
if people spent more time on bettering themselves instead of spending entire weekends at 24hr prayer cities maybe they will be better off

@ seun, don't know how to pm you back, but i modified my post and im not advocating violence or anything of the sort, i merely stating something that is very close to a fact, because if the impoverished nigerian masses didnt have their pastors to assure them that everything good will come tomorrow, there would have been uprisings and killings of ppl considered to be rich and influential and generally ruining nigeria, something of the sort is happening in the niger delta, such happened in the bolshevik revolution in russia. i am not the only one who holds this opinion, it was infact echoed at a forum i attended on nigeria, i am once again not promoting violence

The prosperity "gospel" (which is no gospel at all) is a sad sad vomit of satan that many people across the world are swallowing, unfortunately¬

When the sons of God gathered, satan came in the midst of them. Occultists always take advantage of the voiced ignorance of carnal christians to condemn what they do not understand.

Inasmuch as I have seen some well writen and resonable opinions like that of wellborn on this thread, I will not glorify the opinion of the first post by responding.

Phew, I'm glad to hear that so many people see through the illusion.

In my opinion these two groups are the leaders of the nation. The politicians becuae they voted themselves in. And the pastors because most people follow what they say.

All I ask of the advocates of the Pastors is that you take a long hard look at where the money is going. You all sound like good people so please please please try and make YOUR church ensure that it does some real good with the money that you and those around you give, I want this country to go forwards so my kids can be living in a better place.

I'm a bit sad that no one has told me about any of the stuff their churches are doing to help? Suggests nobody knows!?!?

Mongue:

Phew, I'm glad to hear that so many people see through the illusion.

In my opinion these two groups are the leaders of the nation. The politicians becuae they voted themselves in. And the pastors because most people follow what they say.

All I ask of the advocates of the Pastors is that you take a long hard look at where the money is going. You all sound like good people so please please please try and make YOUR church ensure that it does some real good with the money that you and those around you give, I want this country to go forwards so my kids can be living in a better place.

I'm a bit sad that no one has told me about any of the stuff their churches are doing to help? Suggests nobody knows!?!?

okay, christ embassy loveworld TV employs hundreds of citizens, so they create employment, Pastor Chris's messages encouraged me to believe that if I applied for a student's visa that I will get by faith, so I did and I got it, now am in medical school, The Christ embassy church here in maryland, sends volunteers to hospitals on missions to speak hope to sick people that do not have someone to stand by their sick bed with them, the outreach department goes to villages in African countries to share the word and give food to some starving people, Covenant University by Dr. Oyedepo is training thousands of discplined well qualified graduates to take on the Nigerian workforce in the future and they are handing out a number of full tuition scholarships to extremely poor kids that otherwise would not have had any shot at higher education, do u want more, u know u guys are so biased that u don't see the reality of things that are right before u, as far as where my money goes, men, how else should I tell u that iit is none of your business, I made that money, and whether I take to the casino in Vegas and gamble it all away or I go shopping with it, or  I give every single dime of it to my pastor, again, it is non of your business, please please please, get your facts right, cheers

It is very difficult for us to change our prejudices. Anyway, I believe I have said all I want to say in my previous posts on this thread. Let me just chip in a response.

@ harassed raised a very good point when he said: “We do not seek to live righteously anymore because our 'pastors' have indoctrinated us into thinking that we are already that.”

Pentecostal prosperity churches are no longer emphasizing righteousness, holiness and ethics in our daily lives. Instead they tell you that if you are BORN AGAIN, you become a child of God who is free from sin. This is a theology I simply cannot accept.

Holiness and enlightenment take a lifetime. Being born again does not make one perfect—far from it, your imperfections remain and these are the imperfections one needs to improve on through faith, prayer and hard work. The packaged BORN AGAIN theology being advocated by these churches is extremely dangerous, and I mean extremely. It creates deluded individuals who think they are righteous when in fact they are not.

I can recall a Pentecostal once telling me that even though I am very good and do a lot of good works, I am not holy and cannot be saved because I am not born again (in other words, because I was a non Penteocostal Christian). This was about thirteen years ago. It so pissed me off that I had to lecture the person on Christian theology and church history.

I state once again that Pentecostal prosperity theology is a setback to the development of Nigeria. What we need are not more born agains. What we need are men and women of high morals who live by principles. Born agains or not, these are the people who would see God. When churches begin to preach prosperity and shy away from helping people improve their daily lives by becoming more upright, more ethical and more principled, then it is clear that such churches are a danger.

Let them that have eyes see for themselves.

I rest my case.

i'll not give a thing to any pastor because they are like movie stars in nigeria, pastors are nigerian celebrities!! and they are now putting up tv stations every where, ROGUES!!!!!!!

Olex,

I realy feel for you because u do not seem to understand the doctrine of righteousness.

It is not just a theory for many all over the world are becoming strong through the righteousness of God.

Righteousness is an ability. It is the nature of God that is imparted to our spirits giving us the ability to stand before God without guilt inferiority or condemnation. It gives us the ability to live right.

If you do not have this righteousness of God (not self), all you will experience is a life of strugggle, fear, weekness  and defeat. You will be a slave of sin.

So first and foremost, understand who you are and how you came about the righteousness you have for it was not of your works but it was the free gift of God. Understanding this will put satan permanently under your feet.

When you know who you are, you will act that way.

The reason many preachers are confused about this sort of teaching is that they do not understand the doctrine of righteousness. They say such teaching will cause God's children to sin. That is not true for this message brings men out of the slave metality, where they can know God for themselves; walking according to the Spirit and not according to 'some man-made commandment'. For the bible says, 'walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the works of the flesh.'

All they should do is preach the true gospel of liberty and allow the Holy Spirit to do His job of perfecting His church.

This makes all God's children equal before the father. There is no room for boasting.

We who are God's kids have the same righteousness as Jesus has, praise God!!

It's been interesting reading views from different people on this. Well as far as i am concerned, Nigerian churches are been invaded by touts today dressed in superd outfits and blaring their voices in the name of God. From Chris Oyakhilome to Okotie, the shameless imps reel themselves out to congregrations that dole out their hard earned incomes. So bad it is that in 2002 or so, Adeboye Prophiesied that God told him Osoba was going to win his election. yet May 29th 2003 came and a different person was installed there. So which god was this guy talking about? And not just him but several others dished out lies and nonsense including Okotie (lol).

These guys buy jets, move in convoys of luxury cars, the latest in town, dress gorgeous and have the world in their hands? the last time i checked the bible, Jesus lived a humble life. Can our Christ Embassy, Living Faith or some money-spining business empire calling God's name do the same plz. It's so funny that each time i meet an individual especially from Christ Embassy trying to tell me rubbish, i put in my time to show the person that he isn't in the light.
One time in London, a pastor in a church in Brent Cross was like that he'll pray for people and teach them how to speak in tongues ( Do xtians need to learn how to speak in tongues). while praying and "speaking in tongues", this guy utterred the words "TUNDE". Tunde is a Nigeria name and i couldnt just beleive what it was doing inside "speaking in Tongues". I observed that other people around were also startled.
See how funny conmen claim to be "men of God".
Final Thanks to NBC for banning rubbish out of our TV's. We've had enough from guys like TB Joshua, Chris et al. Not everyone is a fool plz!

@ mekaozi

Please, I don't think you need to be anti islam to contribute to the thread. check out your first post

@ mekaozi
Yeah, whatz Sharia and Islam got to do with this? It only show how intolerant people calling themselves xtians are. So u're religion is right and Islam is wrong abi. See one thing i hate are zealouts. These are the people who kill our societies.

@ donnie,

You wrote:

“Olex, I really feel for you because u do not seem to understand the doctrine of righteousness. It is not just a theory for many all over the world are becoming strong through the righteousness of God.”

Unfortunately, I do not agree with you. If the millions of Christians in Nigeria were righteous, why is there so much corruption, insincerity and wickedness in society? The presence of righteousness in someone must be manifested in the way the person lives.

Religion appears to have almost no impact on the building of an ethical and trustworthy society in Nigeria. Of course there are good Christians, Muslims and traditionalists/atheists, but I can assure you they are a very tiny minority.

Saying we are righteous and that our lives are a manifestation of God mean nothing if we do not live righteous lives. Everybody in this world experiences struggles, fears, insecurity, pain, sickness. Christianity does not take these away (why should it!). Rather, it helps us deal with them as believers in the same way it helps us to overcome sin and bad habits, for as long as we are in this world, there will always be difficulties. Nigerian Pentecostal prosperity churches close their eyes to reality by preaching otherwise. Religion and reality must be of one accord.

That is why I feel that things like miraculous wealth and miraculous exam success are absolute rubbish. If you want wealth, you have to work for it. If you want exam success you have to study. If you have wealth without working for it, you must be a thief. If you pass your exams without studying, you must be a cheat!

yeepa:

@ mekaozi
Please, I don't think you need to be anti islam to contribute to the thread. check out your first post

Danmasani:

@ mekaozi
Yeah, whatz Sharia and Islam got to do with this? It only show how intolerant people calling themselves xtians are. So u're religion is right and Islam is wrong abi. See one thing i hate are zealouts. These are the people who kill our societies.

For those of you worrying about what Islam and Sharia have got to do with this thread, sorry to say that you're taking a cushioned view about Nigeria's problems. I would agree with views like welborn's that the problem does not lie with merely Politicians and Pastors, but so many other people in the Nigerian populace that we have quietly and conveniently ignored - lecturers, businessmen/women, quack medical practitioners, the babalawos, bankers and financiers, immigration and customs officers, et al.

mekaozi's first post to me took the wind out of your sails by broadening the perspectives of the criminals we complain of. I fail to understand how the Sharia Governors have helped developed their states and people; or how the Imams that instigate religious crises in the north of Nigeria at the slightest instance have helped bettered the lot of their people. We can conveniently point fingers at pastors because most people are looking down south and conveniently taking their gaze off the north.

The handler of this topic asked more about the money donated by Church folks than about the mental capabilities of Nigerians - and that's the real malady with our folks. Hypothetically, do you think Nigerians would be the better for it if everyone got a grant of N500,000? NO! Why is that so? Because the problem is not in the money or the lack of it - the heart is the problem. True, there are dubious pastors on the rise in Nigeria; but tell me who is not dubious today in Nigeria? You don't have to be a politician, pastor, or Christian for that matter to taste the bitter strife that other folks would dish out to you on a whole different plata.

TRIBALISM & CORRUPTION

Just walk into any office today in search of a job or contract - you'd have to be an angel from above to be able to get that job or contract on a 'clean' slate. The 'oga' at the top wants his/her kick-back or nothing for you; one of the critical questions that has to be settled is whether you're Igbo, Yoruba or Hausa, etc. The perpetrators of these 'official' crimes we're ignoring are freely walking our streets each and everyday as "civil servants" without necessarily carrying out their games as 'politicians' or 'pastors'. If you want to apply for promotion or house maintenance, your personnel file will go missing!

DISTRUST OF OUR NATIONAL IDENTITY

Politicians and Pastors aside, do ordinary Nigerians trust each other? Do we have faith in our polity or national identity as a people? The north doesn't trust the south and the south doesn't trust the east. Pointing accusing fingers on politicians and pastors alone ("The Two Things" is crying wolf! We forget the level of selfishness we demonstrate in our everyday transactions. Just a micro example: a couple of years ago, because of the perennial water shortages we many times experienced in Abuja, we'd have to go far from home in search of some drops. Believe it or not, there was this woman who would not let anyone fetch even a cupfull from her tap unless they were igbo! She didn't need a pastor's blessing for that or needed to join a political party for same.

I suspect that some opinions voiced here are nothing more than a bias against Christians; and those who have not taken a good look at what's suggested by the topic are easily moved to applauding comments passed to cry down pastors. Often, such comments lump off all Nigerian pastors as culprits, or the generalizations are too broad as to allow even for a distinction between the good and the bad - and that simply shows the bias. As bad as some politicians and pastors have become, so bad are the various other elements in society that we often conveniently ignore - such as lecturers (who won't let students rest with "handouts" everyday on just about any assignment - and who is asking these lecturers to account for the money they make on handouts?), unscrupulous bank managers, unprincipled customs and immigration officers, tribalistic employers and contractors, fanatical Imams of the north who do nothing to quell religious disturbances until thousands have died (usually non-muslims), corrupt police officers, and so many others in the warp and woof of our great nation.

I think the greatest challenge Nigerians face today is not some politicians and pastors - the bad eggs among them certainly contribute to the malady, but they are not "the" two biggest issues holding back Nigeria. When we learn to take care of our own individual prejudices and begin thinking intelligently and critically, we would have taken care of the initial problems of our hearts before anything else. The corruption is not in how many Christians there are in Nigeria - it is in your own heart and mine. Blaming pastors and politicians alone as "the two things" holding Nigerians back is beggarly to say the least. If you cannot take care of your own heart, don't blame it on someone else. Think of what Nigeria would be in the next few months if each one of us would be committed to righteousness and integrity - whether we are pastors, politicians, Muslims, Igbo, Hausa, Yoruba, men or women.

@4get_me you make some very good points. At the end of the day the responsibility does have to be with every individual to make a decision on how they live their lives to try and improve Nigeria.

However people and societies need leaders to set an example and be role models. Especially for the uneducated masses being shown a way to conduct yourself is crucial.

The trouble it is that Politicians and Pastors give only one example which is GREED. Take what you can and spend it as lavishly and quickly as possible. Basically make a lot of money very fast. This is the kind of example which has created the mentality that corruption is the way forward.

The Pastors have done so well that they are basically preaching 419 advance fee fraud to what I see is a greedy audience.
IF YOU GIVE ME 10% (or more) NOW, YOU'RE GOING TO GET A LOT MORE LATER ON.

In essence that is exactly what the 419 boys say in their email. It's a greedy philosophy hidden behind people claiming it is Christian.

If you spend most of your time outside of work at church then your way of thinking is hugely shaped by that church. So many people are led by example, It's scary that so many have bad examples on both fronts

@Mongue, I'm glad that we can now make a sagacious headway about the malady facing our beloved nation. However, GREED is rampant on every front - religion, politics, civil service, education, business, the public and private sectors of our economy, etc. Unscrupulous Politicians and Pastors outnumber the others, but it's a bit too suggestive to see them as the foremost problems we have as a people. 419ers will look for just about any means to make a fast buck; and we are responsible to follow after examples that make life worth its salt in our collective polity.

Many thanks for your rejoinder - you made good points as well.

Dear readers,

I am glad this forum is open to all and what we can share is our personal opinions or better still faith.

The country Nigeria is a nation of many accolades, looking from the days of colonization to the present days of democracy. I am here to tell you readers that we can make a difference if only we can see it, Many lack foresights and they will always see only problems. I tell you the World belongs to those that can respond to abilities( those who will see a problem and take responsibility to see he/she contributes to solving it.

You know some people watch things happens; while others mae things happen, you choose what you want to become in life. Like the John F Kennedy said- Dont think of what your country will do for you;Think of what you will do for your country.

Don't go about blaming everything and anything, you can make a difference in this nation today it all starts with you knowing what your abilities are and direct it towards building a better tomorrow for the Nation Nigeria.

ambassador

Olex,

To answer your question, let me remind you of the words of scripture that says, 'when sin abounds, grace did much more abound.'

It is because of the sin in prevalent in our nation, that God has raised ministries and apostles to combat the evil.

I cannot bear to imagine what this nation would be like without these 'sent ministries'.

For instance, in most of our outreach meetings, we have criminals who surrender their guns and weapons at the alter.

Some have become preachers today.

Listen here and listen good:

It aint any politician or any pastor that is holding Nigeria back, or to ransome for anything. The problem with Nigeria is the people, including me.

The problem with Nija is that we would accept any new tricks politicians and pastors throw at us. If Baba Obas wakes up tomorrow morning and decides to increase fuel price by N500.00, na so everyone go tighten his belt more until our loins begin to gush out.

The problem with Nija is that its citizenry will never wake up and unite to fight a common enemy. We dont need a politician or a pastor to tell us corruption is bad, we dont need them to tell us violence is bad. But they sit in their offices, give us a little money and we start causing wahala for ourselves. By the time we finish all the trouble, they'll drive their Jeeps past and raise dust onto our faces.

Our Politicians and Pastors, and whoever is in power are not as strong as the will of the people. The change wont start form them, its from us it will start, from me and you.

KIMBA,think very well, the peoples spoiling nigeria is the pastor n politians,let me break it down for you,POLITICIAN;MISMANAGEMENT AND EMBEZZLEMENTof the contry's fund.example,THE PRESIDENT N HIS VICE,not to talk of the OTHERS GOVERNORS.
PASTORS;they will PREACH the whole bible,but they don't PRATICE what they preach.

This is my response to a related thread recently:

Queenisha

Or is it Adeboye that made people jobless and hungry?

Yes, very much so by his mafia godfatherism style of giving "spiritual"(?) and "moral"(?) protection to the Looters-in-Power (LIPs) he associates with rather than admonish them publicly as Paul did to Peter on the issue of circumcised vs uncircumcised brethren.
These LIPs whose activity or rather inactivity is the cause of unemployment that creates mass poverty and leaves infrastructures in a dilapidated state, including health facilities that cannot perform rigorous diagnosis thus leaving room for greater attribution of sometimes inevitable diseases and deaths to witches and wizards and wild claims of unverifiable miracles.
Talk about a symbiotic relationship, rub-my-back-I-rub-yours: you politicians can make the people very poor and I will continue to give them false hope of Nigeria will be great, moving to the next level, miracles galore etc etc to keep them hypnotised and focused away from your thieving ways as I dey thief them dey go also with my unbiblical tithe guilt trap.

My own contribution to this thread is to take it further, from being just pastors and politicians but to look at it as a the NIGERIA FACTOR.

Now probably because of our level of Social evolution (we are coming from absolute monarchy and colonialization), we have not imbibed the habit of accountability, openness and freedom of expression.

Now if you look at all aspects of Nigerian life, the same thing happens.

In our homes, the husband (or breadwinner) is not accountable to the wife and any other person for the family account.

In Our markets, the "Iya Oloja" and members of the executive are not accountable to any member of the market association.

In our Taxi Parks and garages, wo befalls any member who asks how the chairman spends our contributions.

In our Villages, who can ask how the Oba spend the allocations to the kingdom.

Even in our Universities, our student Union Leaders are in absolute charge or the purse.

Then you expect Politicians and Pastors to be different? Of course not they are simply being NIGERIANS.

Things would start changing when we start asking questions of our leaders (collectively that is), be in political, spiritual, social or corporate leaders.