I wonder..

I think not, there's just not enough money in there. Anyone with hard numbers?

Bear in mind, I think it doesn't really matter if tithes alone are not enough to buy a jet. Most of their income would come from the considerable good will they garner from their flock as mog. Raw cash is not the only commodity available to fleece. They also seem to give rather little back, other than a placebo or two.



EDIT: if you have hard numbers, what if they were posted here (you would open a new account with a random email account and watch what you type if you wish to remain anonymous). Or if you're feeling james bondish, one could try wikileaks
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/WikiLeaks:Submissions
Consider using tor as well in either situation
https://www.torproject.org/download/download
With tor, retrieving your ip would be more or else impossible for anyone trying to
How to verify any documents presented is another story though. Still, there's a remote chance it might lead to something

I'm not asking you to do anything oh! I'm just saying what if
...

I've worked for one of the popular churches. I had access to most of the financial sheets within our church.

We'll ignore offerings(building, special, seedfaith, all other bullshit), and donations.

TITHES: this is the real windfall
Every month, each member is expected to pay 10% of his salary. For our case study, let's assume one church has a 100 members. Let's also assume each of them earns minimum wage.

18,000 * 10% = 1,800

1,800 * 100 = 180,000naira every month.

Imagine a church has at most 10 branches in a state.

180,000 * 10 =1.8million naira per month..

There are 36 states in Nigeria, Abuja is excluded..

1.8m * 36= 64.8m naira every month..

Need I say more..

REMEMBER OFFERINGS, DONATIONS, SPECIAL SERVICE OFFERINGS, ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THESE FIGURES.

wiegraf: I wonder..

I think not, there's just not enough money in there. Anyone with hard numbers?

Bear in mind, I think it doesn't really matter if tithes alone are not enough to buy a jet. Most of their income would come from the considerable good will they garner from their flock as mog. Raw cash is not the only commodity available to fleece. They also seem to give rather little back, other than a placebo or two.

You obviously underestimate how much these charlatans generate from tithes. Apart from the tithes they generate from their large congregations, do you realise that they also have fraudsters, corrupt govt officials and even armed robbers paying tithes of their illicit income in the hope they can 'bribe' God to forgive them. Trillions of naira is stolen from Govt every year and I can assure you a good number of these thieves are tithers.

musKeeto: I've worked for one of the popular churches. I had access to most of the financial sheets within our church.

We'll ignore offerings(building, special, seedfaith, all other bullshit), and donations.

TITHES: this is the real windfall
Every month, each member is expected to pay 10% of his salary. For our case study, let's assume one church has a 100 members. Let's also assume each of them earns minimum wage.

18,000 * 10% = 1,800

1,800 * 100 = 180,000naira every month.

Imagine a church has at most 10 branches in a state.

180,000 * 10 =1.8million naira per month..

There are 36 states in Nigeria, Abuja is excluded..

1.8m * 36= 64.8m naira every month..

Need I say more..

REMEMBER OFFERINGS, DONATIONS, SPECIAL SERVICE OFFERINGS, ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THESE FIGURES.

Lol

Can't really argue with that.. Not that I genuinely want to actually

Educate my ignorance abeg
All this is tax free?
How is the money spent, are there comittees? What's accountability like?
How many churches are as big as the one in your xase study?

wiegraf:

Lol

Can't really argue with that.. Not that I genuinely want to actually

Educate my ignorance abeg
All this is tax free?
How is the money spent, are there comittees? What's accountability like?
How many churches are as big as the one in your xase study?

Tax free as far as I know.
In RCCG, 100% of tithes is sent to the national headquarters from all parishes. The other income is broken down into percentages and left for parishes based on their administrative roles: Zonal HQ, Regional HQ etc.
Can't say if it's the same for other churches though..
Winners, RCCG and in PCH Salvation Ministries( which is kind of an offshoot from Winners) are some of the biggest I know of. They'd probably account for 75% of Pentecostal Christians in Nigeria.

75% being my opinion.

Things get worse when you consider that there are close to 4 RCCG parishes on some popular streets in Port-Harcourt.

musKeeto:
Tax free as far as I know.
In RCCG, 100% of tithes is sent to the national headquarters from all parishes. The other income is broken down into percentages and left for parishes based on their administrative roles: Zonal HQ, Regional HQ etc.
Can't say if it's the same for other churches though..
Winners, RCCG and in PCH Salvation Ministries( which is kind of an offshoot from Winners) are some of the biggest I know of. They'd probably account for 75% of Pentecostal Christians in Nigeria.

75% being my opinion.

Things get worse when you consider that there are close to 4 RCCG parishes on some popular streets in Port-Harcourt.

This is like a serious
At least tell me there's a way government determines they really are non-profit and put that money to charitable use. Like say via accounting

I'm guessing, no?

wiegraf:

This is like a serious
At least tell me there's a way government determines they really are non-profit and put that money to charitable use. Like say via accounting

I'm guessing, no?

Lol, everything and everyone in Nigeria has a price. And they know it.

musKeeto:
Tax free as far as I know.
In RCCG, 100% of tithes is sent to the national headquarters from all parishes. The other income is broken down into percentages and left for parishes based on their administrative roles: Zonal HQ, Regional HQ etc.
Can't say if it's the same for other churches though..
Winners, RCCG and in PCH Salvation Ministries( which is kind of an offshoot from Winners) are some of the biggest I know of. They'd probably account for 75% of Pentecostal Christians in Nigeria.

75% being my opinion.

Things get worse when you consider that there are close to 4 RCCG parishes on some popular streets in Port-Harcourt.

I don't agree this churches constitute up to 75 percent of the pentecostal crowd.If you go to akwa ibom you will see that The apostolic church is very strong not to forget assemblies of God,christ embassy e.t.c

Okay, So pastors are generating humongous amounts of money, buying private jets and living Luxurious lifestyles. So everybody is angry. For what? If I may ask..

But the fact is churches are private voluntary organisations. As long as there has not been any fraud(members have given out of their own convictions) or crime committed, then you just have to let them be. You believe their lifestyles are outrageous? well that is your own "outsider's" opinion. As far as we know, the overall memberships of these churches are quite happy that their pastors "live large" no matter how it offends you. That fact is they are not spending your money, they are not spending public(tax payer's) funds, It is their money and they have infinite right to spend as they wish.

And if you are calling for these funds to be taxed, then on what basis? Please educate us on what legal commercial laws are these taxes based? When a government moves to tax a transaction, it means they recognize and certify the "goods and services" rendered by such organization. It means there is a documentation of how these good\services are produced, who owns\is-responsible for them?, It means government must have a way to regulate the production, quality and commercialization of such goods\services. Ultimately the government will be responsible for the quality of these goods\services since it is also a beneficiary of the revenues through taxation.

So, How does government identify and quantify spiritual products(products of faith )? How do they define the standards and quality of spiritual products that the public consumes? Is there a government approved school or professional body that teaches, researches, monitors & regulates and documents them? what are the penalties for selling fake\sub-standard spiritual goods?(again, products of faith ).

It simply is not enough to cry "tax, tax, tax..", you must know what you are taxing, and ultimately you are responsible for what you are taxing.

@okey

Well, personally, I'm fairly reluctant to criticize pastopreuners more or else because of the reasons you highlight. It's a free world. But you have to consider the numbers involved (now that I've seen them, whoa) and the considerable amount of goodwill they receive. You also have to consider their motivations. Outright lying/419? Go to prison, simple.

If they really do use the cash like non profit charities do (and aid everyone without discriminating) then of course they deserve tax free status. But if not, and when you consider jets they probably don't, well, everyone pays taxes. Why in should they go free? Because of unverified claims? They provide a service, and lots of services are taxed. If they want to appear respectable they can think of it as say taxing psychologist.
(Frankly, to outsiders, they look like despots/gangstars)

^^^
Bros, nothing stops you from starting your own church and joining in the harvest

You compare church to psychology? Psychology is a scientific discipline, it's products\services are open sourced, peer-reviewed, academically, professionally and legally accredited, thus you can identify and can measure what you are taxing, while church doctrine is 100% faith based. There's absolutely no basis for comparison. You just have to let them enjoy their faith and wealth as they wish. Like I said before, they have not infringed on anybody's rights as a result of church doctrine. If government moves to tax churches, then it means government also validates and is responsible for the "unverified claims" the church supplies. So how would that work

@okey



I'll think of something that can be taxed... Too much in my brain atm. But yeah, I don't support what they do, at all, but I'm not so quick to jump on their backs. They aren't overtly forcing any one, in a sense.

I still think outright 419 should be in prison, and they should be taxed if they cannot show they are not for profit. But it's complicated of course. And true, I certainly cannot justify banning all tithes, but maybe I can justify the taxing dubious npo's and arresting outright conmen.

musKeeto: I've worked for one of the popular churches. I had access to most of the financial sheets within our church.

We'll ignore offerings(building, special, seedfaith, all other bullshit), and donations.

TITHES: this is the real windfall
Every month, each member is expected to pay 10% of his salary. For our case study, let's assume one church has a 100 members. Let's also assume each of them earns minimum wage.

18,000 * 10% = 1,800

1,800 * 100 = 180,000naira every month.

Imagine a church has at most 10 branches in a state.

180,000 * 10 =1.8million naira per month..

There are 36 states in Nigeria, Abuja is excluded..

1.8m * 36= 64.8m naira every month..

Need I say more..

REMEMBER OFFERINGS, DONATIONS, SPECIAL SERVICE OFFERINGS, ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THESE FIGURES.

There is a big gap called REALITY between your post and that of okeyxyz that should not be ignored though. Okeyxyz's post is an "even at that" which is agreed with. Your conjectures above are based on a lot of yes, conjectures, assumptions. The reality on ground is that many people in the country are living below $1 per day, they say is 70%. Reality is not like multi-level marketing or the rodomontaded wonder banks. You don't just assume bring in 5000 or invite 10 people and then the 'blessings' continue to flow(you reap 20,000 or climb up the ladder). Its unreal, and those schemes don't work. It's the same principle you're placing here.
1. How many churches have up to 100 members that earn at least 18,000? You are assuming that wealth is evenly distributed, that everybody in church is an adult/working class, that all adults have a job, and that all jobs pay at least 18,000naira. i don't know how many churches, even RCCG, that have 100 working class people in one branch.
2. Secondly, you assume that everyone of these people in church are diligent and faithful at giving tithes. Very wrong my friend, very wrong. You would be surprised at the number of dedicated church members that for one reason or the other do not pay tithes.
3. You assume that all churches have up to 10 branches in each state. That is laughably unrealistic. You don't appear to have moved around too much. That one church is stronger than cement in Lagos does not mean that they have any branch in Ekiti or Kogi, not to mention the North or the East or the South South. Most of these churches have their areas of concentration. You're assuming a church in Gombe, Bauchi, Borno that has 10 branches in any of those states and each branch has up to 100 people earning 18,000 and willing to part with 10% for the church. This is utopia i guess.
4. You also assume that even among faithful tithers, all are consistent. Not putting into cognisance the number that are not persuaded on tithing, even the ones that believe and practice are not always consistent. Not every tither has given tithes for the past 10 or 11 months consecutively.
Try and weigh in these realities in your assumptions, after which you can safely cross into okeyxyz's logical posts. thanks.

^^^@Image123

There is nothing wrong in musKeeto's mathematical/statistical assumptions on this issue. At least on average his assumption could be right. You do know that some of these dedicated tithe payers earn more than 200,000/month, some even up to a million+/month, right? Not to talk of Business men & Politicians who pay in bulk.

So, if you look at it very well, that alone covers a scale of at least 18,000/month on average for every member of the church ( Both the unemployed and the ones who don't pay their tithes)!

The same with the number of Church members, some branches might have up to 300 members and above, while some will have less than 50; so, on average, it'll still come down to at least 100 members per branch! The same goes for number of church branches Nation/world wide!

I agree with musKeeto's analysis; to me, he made a very good mathematical assumption!

@pastor, I never actually noticed your contributions, thanks. What you say sadly brings money laundering to my mind. Then again, most 9ja does not really need to launder money, at least with effort

@serialoga, you brought the sword I hope? I concur that the estimates seem reasonable

On another note, if someone has some sort records that could perhaps be verified by a 3rd party, mayhaps somewhere like say a wikileaks could help? It's not entirely impossible.

okeyxyz: Okay, So pastors are generating humongous amounts of money, buying private jets and living Luxurious lifestyles. So everybody is angry. For what? If I may ask..

But the fact is churches are private voluntary organisations. As long as there has not been any fraud(members have given out of their own convictions) or crime committed, then you just have to let them be. You believe their lifestyles are outrageous? well that is your own "outsider's" opinion. As far as we know, the overall memberships of these churches are quite happy that their pastors "live large" no matter how it offends you. That fact is they are not spending your money, they are not spending public(tax payer's) funds, It is their money and they have infinite right to spend as they wish.

And if you are calling for these funds to be taxed, then on what basis? Please educate us on what legal commercial laws are these taxes based? When a government moves to tax a transaction, it means they recognize and certify the "goods and services" rendered by such organization. It means there is a documentation of how these good\services are produced, who owns\is-responsible for them?, It means government must have a way to regulate the production, quality and commercialization of such goods\services. Ultimately the government will be responsible for the quality of these goods\services since it is also a beneficiary of the revenues through taxation.

So, How does government identify and quantify spiritual products(products of faith )? How do they define the standards and quality of spiritual products that the public consumes? Is there a government approved school or professional body that teaches, researches, monitors & regulates and documents them? what are the penalties for selling fake\sub-standard spiritual goods?(again, products of faith ).

It simply is not enough to cry "tax, tax, tax..", you must know what you are taxing, and ultimately you are responsible for what you are taxing.

unfortunately, the cognitive playing field is not level here, and i doubt those you're addressing can even comprehend your post.

just saying.

tpia1:

unfortunately, the cognitive playing field is not level here, and i doubt those you're addressing can even comprehend your post.

just saying.

As usual, the Troll Princess Is Available.. I hail ur intelligence.

@image: U dey find argument ni, abi u one form intelligent?
My pastor and friend paid 4000 dollars as tithe while I was a member.
I'm not just spouting figures. Maybe u should contact Julian Assange so you could get an inside leak.

Less than 1 dollar a day, my black a55... How many Nigerians do you know that live in such conditions, yet attend church every Sunday?.. They'd probably live in the villages and the creeks, definitely not in towns..

If you have a better statistical assumption, please share. As far as I'm concerned, I was even a bit lenient with those figures.

seriallink: ^^^@Image123

There is nothing wrong in musKeeto's mathematical/statistical assumptions on this issue. At least on average his assumption could be right. You do know that some of these dedicated tithe payers earn more than 200,000/month, some even up to a million+/month, right? Not to talk of Business men & Politicians who pay in bulk.

So, if you look at it very well, that alone covers a scale of at least 18,000/month on average for every member of the church ( Both the unemployed and the ones who don't pay their tithes)!

The same with the number of Church members, some branches might have up to 300 members and above, while some will have less than 50; so, on average, it'll still come down to at least 100 members per branch! The same goes for number of church branches Nation/world wide!

I agree with musKeeto's analysis; to me, he made a very good mathematical assumption!

At least for once we dey the same page. Image123's just a pant. Lol..

musKeeto:
Troll Princess Is Available

Dohohoho

To prove she's not a troll she decided to troll. Genius.

Not to mention one so poorly executed that it's embarrassing, maybe because it's motivated by blind hate and frustration. She genuinely needs a shoulder to cry on, or at least a hug

Oh, off topic. Ignore this

I know that some churches actually make huge money on tithes but the truth is that the pastors who own PJs could have got it without church funds. In some churches, a member or group can afford to buy it for the pastor. Also, some pastors have their own business(which may have been started with church funds) and can afford it.

wiegraf:
@serialoga, you brought the sword I hope? I concur that the estimates seem reasonable

On another note, if someone has some sort records that could perhaps be verified by a 3rd party, mayhaps somewhere like say a wikileaks could help? It's not entirely impossible.

The bolded is in my possession at all times

musKeeto:
At least for once we dey the same page. Image123's just a pant. Lol..

The first time we've ever agreed on something

jammyng: I know that some churches actually make huge money on tithes but the truth is that the pastors who own PJs could have got it without church funds. In some churches, a member or group can afford to buy it for the pastor. Also, some pastors have their own business(which may have been started with church funds) and can afford it.

I'm still keeping an open mind (or cowardly refusing to commit) on the question of if tithes alone would suffice. I would still say it would work out more this way, though they still make an obscene killing from tithes alone. Surely there are checks on how official tithe money is spent? Abeg tell me so.. Anybody? Or am I being naïve again? *sigh*

Anyways, I suppose you could think of tithes as salary, the rest as the contracts and 'runs', where the real peppeh rest. No vex xtians, I admit feel a little dirty putting it that way lol.


I'm sure most would say no, but would you support taxing churches if they fail to confirm their npo status? Okey's already stated no I believe. I'm sure this has been often tackled before, it would be needless for those who've already stated their positions elsewhere to do so again of course.





@serialoga, no offense to many of your bros.. actually many offense to them.. you're one of the few that deserve to bear the sword if it indeed stands for decency (notice I use the word 'if' though )

^^^Lolz one has to be spiritual enough to possess the sword! Some people are just being pharisees and sadducees by cherry-picking verses to justify tithing.

Goshen360, Zikky and others have debunked their tithe doctrines with spiritually sophisticated teachings and interpretations of scripture (precept upon precept) but they are still stiff-necked Smh for them o!

seriallink: ^^^Lolz one has to be spiritual enough to possess the sword! Some people are just being pharisees and sadducees by cherry-picking verses to justify tithing.

Goshen360, Zikky and others have debunked their tithe doctrines with spiritually sophisticated teachings and interpretations of scripture (precept upon precept) but they are still stiff-necked Smh for them o!

Pastor Kun and Frosbel no follow for others.. .Add their name before dem use sword slice ur fingers..

low IQ, smh.

musKeeto:
Pastor Kun and Frosbel no follow for others.. .Add their name before dem use sword slice ur fingers..

Dem follow wellu wellu! Na dem be leaders, we dey follow with double-edged sword for back

Why not if not? That is where the money is.

musKeeto: .

Same here.

People do give diligently but the accounting is mishmash. People also give on an ad hoc basis plus thanksgiving offering which is limitless. That is why everyone is rushing to get into the church 'business' .

I don't think the issue here is affordability but good governance of God's money.

Secondly, if people do follow and believe in the word of God to give into the house of God, why is Nigeria like this? Then why is there so much unrighteousness and evil in the society. There is a church on every street, but twice as much evil in our midst. It doesn't make sense.

wiegraf: I wonder..

I think not, there's just not enough money in there. Anyone with hard numbers?

Bear in mind, I think it doesn't really matter if tithes alone are not enough to buy a jet. Most of their income would come from the considerable good will they garner from their flock as mog. Raw cash is not the only commodity available to fleece. They also seem to give rather little back, other than a placebo or two.

Why are you all crying over what isn't your ? Is that how you will make ur heven ? They bought jet and everyone of you are lamenting saying they will go to hell. But you all have buit so much hatred inside of you ! Why my people ? Why my brothers ? Why 'christians ?
God bless us

If a MOG has just ten (10) politicians in his flock and he is able to convince the to be faithful to their tights/tithes and could pay their 100,000,000.00 naira yearly. Every year the pastor will be bombarding the church with BOMBARDIERS. Some MOGs are in this category.

It all depends on two things-population and financial status of the congregation.once,you have huge congregation paying an average of 100grand per person each month...bingo! In 2 years,u will be cruising a Bombardier