Mr_Anony:
Lol, don't mind them....Plaetton is the one that amuses me the most. When showed that his interpretation was wrong he resorted to calling everyone in the chapter a liar. I can't tell you how much I laughed when I read that post.

I guess you did not get the joke.
Big laugh.
The statement was actually a rhetorical one on whether your yahweh was a liar.
So far you have done a brilliant job of proving him so.

plaetton:

I guess you did not get the joke.
Big laugh.
The statement was actually a rhetorical one on whether your yahweh was a liar.
So far you have done a brilliant job of proving him so.

Lol, Oh so you were joking then? Ok, perhaps I didn't get the joke as you had intended but rest assured, I still got a good laugh out of it anyway.

Reyginus: Before we go further, I'd like to understand the problem you are out to establish. I would also like us to be consistent in all our arguements.
Are you positing that yahweh is not God, or that He's too malevolent to be God? I really want to know the heart of the thread.

I'm positing both plus more. Look, the very idea that the Creator of the universes actually comes here and chooses a special people and sends 'his son' to be killed etc etc. is just pure fantasy. We grossly and comically overestimate our importance in the universe. Forget the bible for a second. Take a look at this picture.





Do you see where we are? In fact that arrow is wayyy too big, because our planet is really totally invisible in that picture. And that's just our galaxy on display. There are over 200 BILLION galaxies. Think about that. We're less visible than a speck of dust in our own galaxy. And there are over 200 BILLION galaxies in the universe.

And.. wait for this, there is growing evidence that we live in a MULTIVERSE, with an INFINITE NUMBER of universes.

http://phys.org/news/2010-12-scientists-evidence-universes.html


Trillions of Universes.


Yet you think the Intelligence that created THAT actually decided one day to send his 'only son' (whatever the hell that means) to EARTH to be slaughtered, and comes to EARTH to order all sorts of atrocities, including ra.pe and looting, and genocide, as claimed in the bible? Endorsing slavery, animal abuse, being ''jealous'' as to whom we - ON THIS INVISIBLE SPECK OF DUST EVEN WITHIN OUR OWN GALAXY - were ''worshipping''.

Tell me. If YOU created a mansion, would you care who an ant in the spacious back garden of the mansion was ''worshipping''?

Would you choose a colony of ants as your ''chosen ants'' to terrorize other ants hanging in some obscure corner of the garden?

Would you reserve an eternal burning furnace of torture for any of the ants who refused to 'worship' you?

I mean what is wrong with you guys?

THINK.

In fact the ant analogy is too kind to us. If you look at the scale outlined above, we're far less than ants to this Intelligence.

By your beliefs, you're basically ascribing extreme madness to the Creator.

Our ancestors were far more sophisticated in their conceptualization of the Cosmos. The idea of the Creator being physically involved in what we do here on earth was viewed as utter lunacy. ''His will is too great to be known''. AND THEY WERE RIGHT. 1000% SPOT ON. Of course as conscious beings we are spiritually connected to God, the oversoul, being conscious aspects of him, like droplets of a river. But only in a spiritual sense.

Don't tell me the Almighty appeared in person and shared dinner with Isaiah and Jacob, and 'commanded' some band of nomadic herders in the middle eastern plains to go killing and looting, and ra.ping. You christians/muslims - all you do is BLASPHEME the Intelligence that made this multiverse. PLEASE STOP.

Rossikk:

I'm positing both plus more. Look, the very idea that the Creator of the universes actually comes here and chooses a special people and sends 'his son' to be killed etc etc. is just pure fantasy. We grossly and comically overestimate our importance in the universe. Forget the bible for a second. Take a look at this picture.





Do you see where we are? In fact that arrow is wayyy too big, because our planet is really totally invisible in that picture. And that's just our galaxy on display. There are over 200 BILLION galaxies. Think about that. We're less visible than a speck of dust in our own galaxy. And there are over 200 BILLION galaxies in the universe.

And.. wait for this, there is growing evidence that we live in a MULTIVERSE, with an INFINITE NUMBER of universes.

http://phys.org/news/2010-12-scientists-evidence-universes.html


Trillions of Universes.


Yet you think the Intelligence that created THAT actually decided one day to send his 'only son' (whatever the hell that means) to EARTH to be slaughtered, and comes to EARTH to order all sorts of atrocities, including ra.pe and looting, and genocide, as claimed in the bible? Endorsing slavery, animal abuse, being ''jealous'' as to whom we - ON THIS INVISIBLE SPECK OF DUST EVEN WITHIN OUR OWN GALAXY - were ''worshipping''.

Tell me. If YOU created a mansion, would you care who an ant in the spacious back garden of the mansion was ''worshipping''?

Would you choose a colony of ants as your ''chosen ants'' to terrorize other ants hanging in some obscure corner of the garden?

Would you reserve an eternal burning furnace of torture for any of the ants who refused to 'worship' you?

I mean what is wrong with you guys?

THINK.

In fact the ant analogy is too kind to us. If you look at the scale outlined above, we're far less than ants to this Intelligence.

By your beliefs, you're basically ascribing madness to the Creator.

Wow! I like the sciences too. I'm yet to understand how all these relate with your op. Seriously. Okay o.
The problem for you is not that God is not almighty, but that yahweh is not God. In other words you believe God is almighty. Clarify me if I'm wrong. We'll come to yahweh later. Let's understand each other before building further.
You know, the problem with making such assertions arise when proper defense are not made to back them up. If I call you an incompetent man, I must go on to show why you are incompetent. Otherwise, I am the deluded one.
Sincerely, what you wrote has nothing to do with the original topic. I don't make nor allow unnecessary digressions in an arguement. I'm still holding unto your op. I really want to get where you stand.
Your op is what I'm more concerned about.
If you want to argue based on your topic title, let it be. If you want to be inconsistent, bringing yahweh, God, universe, multiverse, etc, even when your op never made mention, you'll have to change your thread title.

Reyginus: Wow! I like the sciences too. I'm yet to understand how all these relate with your op. Seriously. Okay o.
The problem for you is not that God is not almighty, but that yahweh is not God. In other words you believe God is almighty. Clarify me if I'm wrong. We'll come to yahweh later. Let's understand each other before building further.
You know, the problem with making such assertions arise when proper defense are not made to back them up. If I say call you an incompetent man, I must go on to show why you are incompetent. Otherwise, I am the deluded one.
Sincerely, what you wrote has nothing to do with the original topic. I don't make nor allow unnecessary digressions in an arguement. I'm still holding unto your op. I really want to get where you stand.
Your op is what I more concerned about.
If you want to argue based on your topic title, let it be. If you want to be inconsistent, bringing yahweh, God, universe, multiverse, etc, even when your op never made mention, you'll have to change your thread title.

The best threads are those that lead to all sorts of unexpected places. What is there to debate about the original post? Most versions use the term His Elders. You've offered no proof it means anything else than what it says, apart from quoting some obscure verse supposedly debunking it, and quoting conveniently foggy renditions of the verse.

So we simply agree to disagree and move on to the more fundamental issue raised by the thread title, which has to do with the authenticity of the Yahweh as God concept.

As per your earlier question, yes I accept there is an Intelligence responsible for Creation.

I do not accept that the bible has anything at all to do with that Intelligence. The very suggestion is absurd.

Rossikk:

The best threads are those that lead to all sorts of unexpected places. What is there to debate about the original topic? Most versions use the term His Elders. You've offered no proof it means anything else than what it says, apart from quoting some obscure verse supposedly debunking it, and quoting conveniently foggy renditions of the verse.

So we simply agree to disagree and move on to the more fundamental issue raised by the thread title, which has to do with the authenticity of the Yahweh as God concept.


As per your earlier question, yes I accept there is an Intelligence responsible for Creation.

I do not accept that the bible has anything at all to do with that Intelligence. The very suggestion is absurd.

I believe what Reyginus really wants you to do is to define the terms of your debate so that he can engage you properly. You are throwing up too many unnecessary red herrings.

Secondly, I would like you to note before you start your arguments: "I think X is absurd, therefore it is absurd" is not a valid argument.

Mr_Anony:
I believe what Reyginus really wants you to do is to define the terms of your debate so that he can engage you properly. You are throwing up too many unnecessary red herrings.

Secondly, I would like you to note before you start your arguments: "I think X is absurd, therefore it is absurd" is not a valid argument.

The authenticity of the Yahweh as God concept comprises the 'terms of the debate'. He can pick one or all of the points raised and have a go. Don't try to dictate how a thread should flow. Deal with it as you see it.. As for your little quote there, I have stated some pretty clear reasons why Yahweh cannot possibly be God. Reasons you should be busy addressing instead of talking off point about 'red herrings'..

This thread is all over the place ..nothing or little really is achieved when focus or energy is scattered all over the place...the message is lost or misinterpreted when there is a lot of noise coming from the medium...

@ Rossikk I think what you really trying or want to convey is that the true nature of Yahweh as depicted in the bible is false because the bible contains both truths and false..

Rossikk:
What is there to debate about the original post? Most versions use the term His Elders. .

Really? If it is not worth debating, then the thread is a truth which must be accepted, no?
And now to the main issue, the 24 elders. To start with, have you read the passage recommended you ?

greatgenius: This thread is all over the place ..nothing or little really is achieved when focus or energy is scattered all over the place...the message is lost or misinterpreted when there is a lot of noise coming from the medium...

@ Rossikk I think what you really trying or want to convey is that the true nature of Yahweh as depicted in the bible is false because the bible contains both truths and false..

You're very funny. You say the thread is all over the place yet you end with a pretty accurate summation of exactly what the thread is about!!

In other words, it's NOT ''all over the place'' at all. It's very much apparent what we're discussing. It's only some folks who are unable to deal with the issue that are are pretending they don't understand what the thread is about. You don't need to pander to them. Yahweh cannot possibly be God is what I'm saying.

Reyginus: Really? If it worth debating, then the thread is a truth which must be accepted, no?
And now to the main issue, the 24 elders. To start with, have you read the passage recommended you ?

Don't 'recommend' any passage to me. QUOTE IT DIRECTLY and explain how it contradicts the original quote.

Rossikk:

Don't 'recommend' any passage to me. QUOTE IT DIRECTLY and explain how it contradicts what was earlier posted.

Lolol. Seriously? I didn't make the claim that the bible contradicts God. You did, and should tell us how it contradicts yahweh. You want me to do your work for you?

Reyginus: Lolol. Seriously? I didn't make the claim that the bible contradicts God. You did, and should tell us how it contradicts yahweh. You want me to do your work for you?

Do you believe that the Creator of this mighty multiverse as elaborated on above, ordered a chosen group of humans on earth to go on rap.ing sprees of their neighbours, committed infanticide by ordering the death of all first-borns in Egypt, afflicted a man named Job with all sorts of suffering to test his love, promises to torture earthlings in eternal fire for ''failing to worship him'' and other such biblical claims?

I think those bible claims 'contradict God' as you put it.

Not just contradict God, but BLASPHEME God.

Rossikk:

Do you believe that the Creator of this mighty multiverse as elaborated on above, ordered a chosen group of humans on earth to go on rap.ing sprees of their neighbours, committed infanticide by ordering the death of all first-borns in Egypt, afflicted a man named Job with all sorts of suffering to test his love, promises to torture earthlings in eternal fire for ''failing to worship him'' and other such biblical claims?

I think those bible claims 'contradict God' as you put it.

Not just contradict God, but BLASPHEME God.

You even need to learn how to understand. What is hard in arguing from the already established premises?
You can open another thread for these new inputs.
For now, let's focus on our 24 elders. Is that too much to ask?

Rossikk:

You're very funny. You say the thread is all over the place yet you end with a pretty accurate summation of exactly what the thread is about!!

In other words, it's NOT ''all over the place'' at all. It's very much apparent what we're discussing. It's only some folks who are unable to deal with the issue that are are pretending they don't understand what the thread is about. You don't need to pander to them. Yahweh cannot possibly be God is what I'm saying.

well you didn't understand me. Yes I could pick out what you were but obviously some people didn't . And as the op is your duty to make the people you're discussing with to understand your message ...My point was your argument was all over the place after establishing the premise( the title which btw does not agree with the content you posted )...

@ bolded not true.. Yahweh is God and your creator.. btw why do you really think he is not the almighty God...

And you don't even have to answer because I know exactly what you are saying.. to you the Yahweh of Christianity can't possibly be the creator and you are right if one is to go by everything in the bible..

But once you learn to discern and separate lies from the truth ,the chaff from the wheat (which seems to be hard for most of humanity ) you will begin to understand the bible and pick out the truths from it..

But if you cent then my advice is to stay as far away from the bible or religion as you can and follow your heart..