Eri8: Can you give me names of ethnic groups that are black in North Africa? I just want to read up on them. And are the Nubians considered black?

KidStranglehold:

'Black' North African ethic groups:
Tuareg's
Siwa Berbers
Tissint Berbers
Tamegroute/Zarogoza Berbers

And more...

Yes Nubians consider themselves black. Like these Nubian men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvJ0F299kFQ&list=FLOi5yL1B9aLEWSTjyIwcWLw

KidStranglehold: @Eri8

And also...This should be of interest to you.

COLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.
Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.
Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”
“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”
Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.
“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”
During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.
Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.
Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.
Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.
Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.
The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.
Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.
So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.
“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”
Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.
The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.
Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.
“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.
While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.
Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.
“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa.”
Source:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/09/over-one-million-european-christians-kidnapped-and-enslaved-by-muslims.html

The Greeks and Romans called the Natives of North Africa Mauros meaning black...
This is NOT BLACK thus not native..(Result of Slavery and white Greek/Vandal invasions):

[img]http://matoub.kabylie.free.fr/images/vetement-kabyle.jpg[/img]

The Modern Kabyle are 40% Eurasian male and nearly 75% Eurasian female.

Yet their African Y chromosome E3b originates in East Africa..(Like the Original Berbers-see the Siwa)..

890 –“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.





Slavers:

KidStranglehold: @Eri8

Look at the people of the Maghreb(North Africa) Y-DNA...



^^^Notice how they carry high frequencies of African E1b1b and note that is the coastal part of North Africa, where many non Africans settled.

somalia9: On the European continent it has the highest concentration in north-west Greece, Albania and Kosovo, then fading around the Balkans, the rest of Greece and Western Turkey. Outside Europe, it is also found in most of the Middle East, northern and eastern Africa, especially in Morocco, Libya, Egypt Yemen, Somalia, Ethiopia and South Africa.


E1b1b, which is the most common Y Haplogroup among Ethiopians, Somalis, Eritreans and North African Berbers and Arabs, is the third most common Haplogroup in Europe. It is also common in the Near East, from where it spread into the Balkans and the rest of Europe. E1b1b has three common subclades: M78, M81, and M34.

morpheus24:

You just explained why E1b1b is the progenitor of a majority of eastern Africans including many male ancestors of many North Africans and middle easterners. E and its derivatives is an African haplo group.

^^^Note it was proven that King Ramses III was E1b1a which is mainly found in West-Central Africans.

*Kails*:
@kid you said this about ramses III



how is that possible?
you have any proof?

KidStranglehold: It was originally posted on bmj...But bmj has a 7 day limit and you have to pay a subscription to read the whole article. It was lead by Zahi Hawass though.
http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268

But here is what was said in the article. I still have the quotes...
Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a. The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker (table 2⇓). Although the mummy of Ramesses III’s wife Tiy was not available for testing, the identical Y chromosomal DNA and autosomal half allele sharing of the two male mummies strongly suggest a father-son relationship.

*Kails*:


[size=18pt]LOL@ HAWASS FINALLY ADMITTING WHAT HE'S BEEN TRYING TO HIDE FOR DECADES! [/size]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5wLCVpBjhk

i will comment on your other notes above..i gotta run and take care of something.

but check out the video i posted..!! Hawass is dirty mudasucka..

KidStranglehold:

LOL. I have that video as a favorite. But you really cant hate Hawass. The ONLY thing I respect about him is that he has ambitiously tried to preserve the things the Ancient Egyptians left behind. That is what I respect about him, other than that...Nothing else.

KidStranglehold: Also keep in mind that because the great dessication of North Africa caused much population upheaval and migratory dispersions, this created a chain reaction of migrations like a domino affect... For so long people have only been focusing on West African connections to Egypt via the Central Sahara, but forgot that there were various pre-Bantu even pre-Benue groups and peoples living in the Central Sahara during the Holocene Wetness as well as early Nilotic groups. Some of these groups migrated further south before the dessication perhaps due to population expansions since North Africa at that time was rich in food supply and resources. When the dessication happened they were pushed further south and/or mixed with groups escaping desertification. Of course the Bantu language expansion took place well after these events which is why many Bantu-speaking people in South Africa today carry indigenous lineages to the region instead of West-Central African lineages associated with Bantu which again shows the difference between bio-genesis and ethnogenesis. And let's not forget the various Nilotic peoples who inhabited much of central and eastern Africa before Bantus as well.

^^^Remember Modern day West Africans did not always live in that area and they are not one monolithic group....

Also...

The Benin haplotype HbS persists in Egyptian population today, whereas it is all but absent in the African Horn.

Additionally, ties to African populations presently distant from Egypt should not puzzle anyone, since the core ancient Egyptian population would have ultimately drawn from a shared ancestral gene pool that crosscuts the different living African populations, aside from more recent common origins in the Saharan belt.

King Tut died of sickle cells.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/king-tut-died-from-sicklecell-disease-not-malaria-2010531.html

Also...

Keita found that the pre-dynastic Badarians mostly resembled the Teita (who themselves ultimately derive from Tanzania).
http://wysinger.homestead.com/badari.pdf

^^^^ However...Affinity doesn't really suggest origin/descent.

Am I saying the Ancient Egyptians were West Africans? Nope.

But that they share a common ancestry.

*Kails*:


true.
because i believe everything happens for a reason.
he doesn't know it but he has helped preserved more information that future generations will be able to accurately decipher and discover...and the truth will come out in full.

when people think they are getting away with doing wrong..they always forget about this chick named 'Karma' and her little sister 'destiny'.

*Kails*:


everything you have said...truth be told..i have said on this forum since forever...and was rediculed for it. but i won't go there...i will say though that it is a fact that all black africans originated from the area where ancient egyptians came from thus is the reason why the black egyptians have features that could be found in all parts of africa.

my confusion comes in with the whole Ea & Eb haplogroup issue.
how did e1b1b come about? are they simply mutations or were they always there...i never understood that. Im my opinion the first black africans looked something like present day Nilotes/Nubians.

Sudanese Nilote:



although she is E1B1A I see features from all of africa on her.

It will also explain why Andaman islanders kinda look like her as well being the first "black people" to leave the continent approx. 70,000 years ago.



(at this point i am only talking about looks)

"A content analysis of the treatment of ancient Egypt in selected secondary level world history textbooks"
by Mostafa Hefny ( Book )
1 edition published in 1995 in English and held by 1 library worldwide


Author: Mostafa Hefny
Dissertation: Thesis (Ph. D.)--Wayne State University, 1995.
Edition/Format: Thesis/dissertation : Thesis/dissertation : Manuscript Archival Material : English
OCLC Number: 35154607
Notes: Typescript.
Description: x, 214 leaves ; 29 cm.
Responsibility: by Mostafa Hefny.


Library Held Formats Distance
1. Wayne State University Detroit, MI 48202 United States Book *** miles

KidStranglehold:

Good post! But I think that Nilote women is Eb....

*Kails*:


nilotes eb? idk about that.
brb.

RandomAfricanAm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XUPZokMb6A

KidStranglehold:

I could have sworn that they are. Aren't they separate from West African groups?

Nilotic people have been investigated in studies of both autosomal DNA and Y-DNA and carry predominantly haplogroup E1b1.

Wood et al. (2005) tested samples of three Nilotic populations (Maasai from Kenya, Luo from Kenya, and Alur from the DRC) as part of a broad survey of human Y-chromosome DNA variation in Africa and found that the predominant Y-DNA haplogroup in each of the three populations was different, with E1b1b1-M35 being the most frequent among Maasai (13/26 = 50%, including 4/26 = 15% E1b1b1a-M78 and 9/26 = 35% E1b1b1-M35(xE1b1b1a-M78, E1b1b1b-M81)), E1b1a-P1 being the most frequent among Luo (6/9 = 67%, including 4/9 E1b1a7-M191 and 2/9 E1b1a-P1(xE1b1a7-M191)

KidStranglehold:

Good post! But I think that Nilote women is Eb...

Also remember that E1b1a originated in East Africa.

"with E1b1b1-M35 being the most frequent among Maasai (13/26 = 50%, including 4/26 = 15% E1b1b1a-M78 and 9/26 = 35% E1b1b1-M35(xE1b1b1a-M78, E1b1b1b-M81))"

*Kails*:


that's what i thought.
my bad...i'll do some research..i was watching the video you posted.

im still tripping off the white guy threatening the egyptian man's education because he publicly declared himself black!!

*Kails*:


yeah so anyway,
when we look @ nilotes..i believe we are looking @ the features of our distant ancestors.

here is an example of the Masai who are part of the nilotic group but they also have eb
ancestry..



[img]http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-42-24765450.jpg?size=67&uid=e504b1ed-f0e9-4075-bb1a-04d02d3bd1df[/img]

just as my source stated...



i still would like to know how eb came about.

KidStranglehold:

The video RAA posted I seen. There are a lot of Egyptians that consider themselves black or African.

*Kails*:


yeah. i know one egyptian girl who has never denied being black.
yet on her documents, sure enough she is listed as middle eastern.

which really there is nothing wrong with that because technically she is...
when you think of her nationality and culture..however her race is black.

oh well...