vedaxcool:

Thank you oga, but please because of atheism STOP LYING, . . .,

seem your section is pretty dull nowadays. Those Zombies which cant use their brains or got dead brains are making life boring for ya huh? Get lost or stop derailing.

This section is for intellectual talk and not rant defending arabian imaginary god.

vedaxcool:

Maybe you are getting me, my point is Allah does what he wills, and in this case like any other he has provided men with the Qur'an as a form of guidance, a collection of what is expected of men, because God has given men a certain degree of freedom in their action and affairs, in the case of banu Q, they were trialed according to their own revealed scriptures by a judge of their own choosing now the point is the process follows what laws etc made for the benefit of men, men at the end of the day choose whether a certain law applies to a particular case etc! But my point remains if HE wanted them to live HE would easily done so, if HE had wanted them to die by a means of his own choosen HE would have easily done so because HIS WILL always prevails!

You not even sure of what you are saying. Why are you creating theories and lies for your god? He created some men to be killed, their wives to the forcefully married and their properties shared among mohamed soldiers? Is this Allah's will?

vedaxcool:

Lol! If I recall correctly, the banu quraiza where trial according to their own scriptures,by a judge of their own choosing! Any way I understand your question, which like thehommer is based on a false premise, you would understand thehommer entire arguement if your understand sectarianism in religion, hommer simply ignored tenants of the christians faith to make a case for murdering baby in the name of saving them for paradise, and that is how twisting of religion occurs an individual ignores basic commandments of his religion and invents his own meaning to religion, which I have clearly showed in this case tries inventing a will, God have never intended and supplanting such a will with THE Will God actually stated! To answer your question it sounds better but fails like the latter, why didn't Allah just willed them to death, because he just didn't! Simple! Why did you take coffee(assuming so) because you wanted to, why did you take an afternoon nap, because you wanted to, so also Allah does what he wants, and in this case he left Muhammad pbuh to deal with the issue, had Allah wanted a different outcome he would have intervened, e.g if God wanted to give "logic"boy a functional brain, HE simply does, regardless of whether I like it, you hate it, everybody dislike it, HE simply does what he wills, but as long as God decides not to give "l"b a functional brain, regardless of our prayers etc it will remain so, for as long as possible! And that my friend is how it works, you may as well ask why did he make you a muslim if he wanted humanity to worship him, well because HE have decided to create the world in such a way that HE deems fit!

So no faith, you atheists are not in a position to define God to a theist, since u have decided not to know God, rather we are to tell you based on our understanding of the scriptures we believe he gave us to, and in this case the hommer decided by the typical ignorance of atheism to ignore what christians believe to be God Will to them! So also your question ignores what Allah revealed to Muslims, He does what HE deems fit and in the case of banu Q, HE did what HE deemed fit!

I smell Taqiyya: Islamic doctrine of deceit to defend and promote Islam...

vedaxcool:

Is this a new set of question? As clearly your train of "thoughts" as conveyed by the OP has been thoroughly refuted and shown to be a train of banter!

No you haven't. You should have responded to my point about Abraham. Here it is again in a way I hope you can understand.

Should Abraham have followed your God's command to kill his son?

Mr anony:
I'll suppose you want us to talk about God from a Christian perspective. Bearing this in mind let us look at your argument.

First of all, let us look at your presuppositions here. What is your argument taking for granted?

1. You are granting that God (the ultimate creator of all things) exists and He loves people
2. You are granting that there is an afterlife where a person may have a better or worse lot than he/she currently has i.e. heaven and hell. (note that from a christian perspective, hell is punishment for sin while heaven is God's gift of grace)
3. You are granting also that since God loves people, naturally He wants to give them the gift of eternal life in Heaven.

If the above are true, then killing for God is not necessarily a bad thing regardless of the age especially if God is killing the person into heaven.

Okay. Your statement in bold says it all.

Mr anony:
Now let us look at your arguments


true


true. He has given heaven as a gift for all who will choose to accept it


I don't know this to be true. This view is not supported by the bible, besides it looks to me like an ad hoc rule sneaked in so as to enhance the shock value of baby killing which will come up later on (why 3? why not 4 or 20 or 67?).

Saying you don't know this to be true means that you think (like some Catholics did) that they maybe end up in Limbo. It is at three because at that age at the very least, they're considered as being innocent. i.e they're unable to actually sin.

Mr anony:
While this might sound true on the surface (especially if premise 3 were true). It has the problem of forcing people into heaven against their will.
If it is God who is doing the killing here, then He really hasn't given them heaven as a gift but rather has forced them into heaven. Maybe it is for the "greater good" but then it will mean that God will be doing a disservice to those whom He allows to live beyond age 3.

Do children have a will? You're saying if God does it that's fine but if people do it, it isn't. How about if God commands people to do it? Is that fine?

Mr anony:
(note however God still reserves the right to do this as their creator)

This argument raises the question of whether he really does this since when you say you're not sure they'll get into heaven, it means that you think God may be sending them somewhere else.

Mr anony:
If all your premises were true, then a person (and I'm assuming a person other than God here) who kills 3 year olds with the intention of forcing them into heaven will not be an altruist because he is forcing them to go to heaven against their will in much the same way as a person forcing gold coins into your pockets against your will is not an altruist.

Actually, such a person is an altruist since they're sending people who don't know better into paradise without caring for the fact that they'll end up in hell themselves. i.e they're helping people get the "ultimate reward" while they themselves get the "ultimate punishment". If that isn't altruism in the Christian worldview, then nothing is.

How is someone helping another person out not an altruist? Maybe you're mistaking the meaning of altruism for something else.

Mr anony:
(also he/she doesn't have the right to take a life he/she neither creates nor sustains)

Does anyone other than God have this right? How exactly does God even come to have this right? Such things must be resolved before declaring absolutely that he does have this right otherwise it simply sounds like special pleading.

Mr anony:
I honestly don't see how your argument does any kind of job against God.

It does the job that the writers of the Old Testament didn't foresee and you've further revealed this problem by saying that killing for God isn't wrong. Saying this means that it is possible that when we hear of even a modern genocide, those people may just be doing God's work so who are you to criticize them or say otherwise?

thehomer: As I said before, I have a counter argument for you (Mr Anony) which I think does a better job against God.

i am not sure you do......

thehomer:
Premise 1: God exists and cares about humans.

exactly...Thats why created them in thefirst place

thehomer: Premise 2: God would prefer it if most or all humans go to heaven.

Yes he would....but not all humans will and can go to heaven.....the better way to say it is:: if God would prefer all humans gaining everlasting life....the answer is YES...

thehomer: Premise 3: All children who die below the age of three years will go to heaven.

Nope,,,the scriptures does not say..besides little children arent candidates for heaven...what would they gothere to do??

thehomer:
Conclusion: It would be right to kill all children below the age of three years until the human species goes extinct. Following from this, the person who does this is the ultimate altruist.

the question is who is or should be doing the killing?,.....

thehomer:
The God here is a variant of the Christian God. And you may assume that people go on living in some form after their death.

until persons are ressurected i dont believe in persons living in some form after death......and God remains the same...

thehomer:
In fact, this reasoning has been used as a justification of God's command to commit genocide.

God never committed genocide to start with.....we as humans do not have the right to say the creator ever committed genocide,.....

ijawkid:

i am not sure you do......

Really? Let's take a look shall we?

ijawkid:
exactly...Thats why created them in thefirst place

Okay.

ijawkid:
Yes he would....but not all humans will and can go to heaven.....the better way to say it is:: if God would prefer all humans gaining everlasting life....the answer is YES...

Okay.

ijawkid:
Nope,,,the scriptures does not say..besides little children arent candidates for heaven...what would they gothere to do??

Are you saying that children don't go to heaven when they die? If so, then where do those children that died of diseases and other acts of God go?

ijawkid:
the question is who is or should be doing the killing?,.....

I'm making the argument that assuming these children go to heaven and the person who does this killing goes to hell, then that person isn't evil, but is an altruist.

ijawkid:
until persons are ressurected i dont believe in persons living in some form after death......and God remains the same...

Resurrection is life after death isn't it?

ijawkid:
God never committed genocide to start with.....we as humans do not have the right to say the creator ever committed genocide,.....

His attack on Sodom and Gomorrah was indiscriminate. He also commanded people to commit genocide so your claim there is wrong. Genocide has a certain meaning that has to apply once the causative agent is sapient. Saying otherwise simply commits the fallacy of special pleading.

thehomer:


Are you saying that children don't go to heaven when they die? If so, then where do those children that died of diseases and other acts of God go?

Those kids who have died are in Gods memory waiting until they are ressurected..........what are children going to heaven to do??......heaven isn't a place for children.....

thehomer:


I'm making the argument that assuming these children go to heaven and the person who does this killing goes to hell, then that person isn't evil, but is an altruist.

We've got to consider on what basis the supposed person carried out the act........

thehomer:

Resurrection is life after death isn't it?

Yes.......but not life in between death and ressurection.....

thehomer:

His attack on Sodom and Gomorrah was indiscriminate. He also commanded people to commit genocide so your claim there is wrong. Genocide has a certain meaning that has to apply once the causative agent is sapient. Saying otherwise simply commits the fallacy of special pleading.

You are judging Gods act on sodom as a genocide?............But no it isn't .....how would you describe natos suPport of the libyan rebels against gadaffi and his cohorts??......

thehomer:
Okay. Your statement in bold says it all.

That's is what your argument advocates.

Saying you don't know this to be true means that you think (like some Catholics did) that they maybe end up in Limbo.

Don't put words in my mouth or suggest what I have not affirmed.

It is at three because at that age at the very least, they're considered as being innocent. i.e they're unable to actually sin.

ok

Do children have a will?

Do you think that they don't?

You're saying if God does it that's fine but if people do it, it isn't. How about if God commands people to do it? Is that fine?

If the government arrests a man, that's fine. If you arrest a man by yourself (kidnapping), it isn't. How about if the Government gives you the authority to arrest the man. Is that fine?

This argument raises the question of whether he really does this since when you say you're not sure they'll get into heaven, it means that you think God may be sending them somewhere else.

Again putting words in my mouth. You are not in a position to know what I think. What I said is that God as their creator reserves the right to end a person's life irrespective of the age

Actually, such a person is an altruist since they're sending people who don't know better into paradise without caring for the fact that they'll end up in hell themselves. i.e they're helping people get the "ultimate reward" while they themselves get the "ultimate punishment". If that isn't altruism in the Christian worldview, then nothing is.

How is someone helping another person out not an altruist? Maybe you're mistaking the meaning of altruism for something else.

As I said earlier, the bible does not tell him that heaven is an automatic for three year olds. He is killing them for his own personal reasons of what he thinks the bible ought to say. That is not altruism in the Christian worldview.

Does anyone other than God have this right? How exactly does God even come to have this right? Such things must be resolved before declaring absolutely that he does have this right otherwise it simply sounds like special pleading.

That's like saying it is special pleading that the police car has the right to go over the speed limit while you don't.
In the case of God here, it is not special pleading in the sense that He created the life and sustains it. The life is his property hence God can choose to stop sustaining it whenever He so wishes.

Man neither creates the life nor sustains it and hence lacks the right to take it.

It does the job that the writers of the Old Testament didn't foresee and you've further revealed this problem by saying that killing for God isn't wrong. Saying this means that it is possible that when we hear of even a modern genocide, those people may just be doing God's work so who are you to criticize them or say otherwise?

Lol, was this what you were trying to get at all along?
The problem for you here is your poor understanding of Christian theology.
God owns and has every right to do what he wants with his creation.

Does this mean that a modern genocide is people carrying out God's work? No, the bible teaches us that God in this dispensation of grace has allowed the wicked until the last day for their judgment. He doesn't give anyone the right to carry out His judgment for Him.

No Christian led by the Holy Spirit will kill a man (whether into heaven or out of heaven) because that will be contrary to what Christ commands. It is impossible to serve God by disobeying Him.

Our commission is to preach the gospel until Jesus returns or until we die (whichever happens first).

The man who "kills for God" is not a Christian. Plain and simple.

thehomer:

No you haven't. You should have responded to my point about Abraham. Here it is again in a way I hope you can understand.

Should Abraham have followed your God's command to kill his son?

Yes I have, and u are yet to respond to what I wrote, is this a new set of questions? Coz apparently your OP failed woefully, and to me your new question seem nothing more than a SAVE MY FACE question, any way let me be merciful to you, Abraham followed the commandment of God to sacrifice his son, which his son consented to, and that's is historical fact, Abraham action gets my vote any day! But off course this has nothing to do with your OP which I have shown to be poorly reasoned!

vedaxcool:

Yes I have, and u are yet to respond to what I wrote, is this a new set of questions? Coz apparently your OP failed woefully, and to me your new question seem nothing more than a SAVE MY FACE question, any way let me be merciful to you, Abraham followed the commandment of God to sacrifice his son, which his son consented to, and that's is historical fact, Abraham action gets my vote any day! But off course this has nothing to do with your OP which I have shown to be poorly reasoned!

Wow. This is why people like you are a menace. If you cannot see the problem with a man ready to murder his own son for the sake of voices or visions, then I really don't think arguments can help you.

Good luck to you and yours. You surely need it.

Mr anony:
That's is what your argument advocates.

Yes that is the conclusion of that argument.

Mr anony:
Don't put words in my mouth or suggest what I have not affirmed.

Then what do you affirm? Where do these children go? The Bible seems to indicate that people with childlike minds get to go to heaven. Who has more childlike minds than children?

Mr anony:
ok

Do you think that they don't?

No I don't think they do since they're unable to exhibit the sort of judgement that would make them liable for their actions. Now can you please tell me whether or not you think they do have a will?

Mr anony:
If the government arrests a man, that's fine. If you arrest a man by yourself (kidnapping), it isn't. How about if the Government gives you the authority to arrest the man. Is that fine?

Kidnapping isn't arrest. In fact, there's an idea of the citizen's arrest. Besides, as I'm sure you'll quickly say if someone else tried to compare your God to the government, you would say God isn't like the government won't you? You're yet to answer the question I raised there. Here it is again.

If God commands people to commit a genocide, is that fine?

Mr anony:
Again putting words in my mouth. You are not in a position to know what I think. What I said is that God as their creator reserves the right to end a person's life irrespective of the age

That isn't my question. My question is: where do they go after their lives have been ended by God or at his command?

Mr anony:
As I said earlier, the bible does not tell him that heaven is an automatic for three year olds. He is killing them for his own personal reasons of what he thinks the bible ought to say. That is not altruism in the Christian worldview.

Where do you think the Bible says they go? Unless you can actually answer this, then you're in no position to determine whether or not it is altruism.

Mr anony:
That's like saying it is special pleading that the police car has the right to go over the speed limit while you don't.
In the case of God here, it is not special pleading in the sense that He created the life and sustains it. The life is his property hence God can choose to stop sustaining it whenever He so wishes.

Actually, it is only with the right justification that the police car can go over the speed limit. You can also go over the speed limit in your own car if you have the right justification. Declaring that God can do whatever he likes makes the God an arbitrary God. Is the Christian God an arbitrary God?

Mr anony:
Man neither creates the life nor sustains it and hence lacks the right to take it.

So, since you didn't create the Salmonella that has infected you means that you don't have the right to take antibiotics to kill it.

Mr anony:
Lol, was this what you were trying to get at all along?
The problem for you here is your poor understanding of Christian theology.
God owns and has every right to do what he wants with his creation.

Actually, you need to show that I have a poor understanding of Christian theology because there are multiple strains of it some of which are contradictory.
You've just implied that the Christian God may as well be arbitrary and if he is, then he is unworthy of worship. Now you see why you should be careful to consider the justification for an action or entity before endorsing it.

Mr anony:
Does this mean that a modern genocide is people carrying out God's work? No, the bible teaches us that God in this dispensation of grace has allowed the wicked until the last day for their judgment. He doesn't give anyone the right to carry out His judgment for Him.

Since you've implied that God can be arbitrary (which you've done over and over again), how do you know he hasn't decided to update the Bible that is if the Bible even teaches that he no longer permits genocide?

Mr anony:
No Christian led by the Holy Spirit will kill a man (whether into heaven or out of heaven) because that will be contrary to what Christ commands. It is impossible to serve God by disobeying Him.

Our commission is to preach the gospel until Jesus returns or until we die (whichever happens first).

The man who "kills for God" is not a Christian. Plain and simple.

I'm not saying that one who does this is a Christian, I'm saying that one who does this is an altruist in the Christian worldview because such a person has paid the ultimate price to grant others the ultimate reward.

ijawkid:
Those kids who have died are in Gods memory waiting until they are ressurected..........what are children going to heaven to do??......heaven isn't a place for children.....

Who is heaven for?

ijawkid:
We've got to consider on what basis the supposed person carried out the act........

The person carried it out on the basis that children who die below that age go to heaven.

ijawkid:
Yes.......but not life in between death and ressurection.....

When these children are resurrected, where do they go?

ijawkid:
You are judging Gods act on sodom as a genocide?............But no it isn't .....how would you describe natos suPport of the libyan rebels against gadaffi and his cohorts??......

I don't care about NATO and Gaddafi and I don't see what bearing that has here since I know people can commit genocide.

Yes God's act fits the definition of genocide. Unless you want to redefine genocide.

thehomer:

Who is heaven for?

For the matured persons.....and those persons have special assignments which ofcourse a child below 3 yrs can't fit into......heaven isn't a K.G class.....

thehomer:

The person carried it out on the basis that children who die below that age go to heaven.

What if the person does not even know why he is doing it??.....

thehomer:

When these children are resurrected, where do they go?

They stay right on this earth which is there original Home...chikena....!!!........

thehomer:

I don't care about NATO and Gaddafi and I don't see what bearing that has here since I know people can commit genocide.

Yes God's act fits the definition of genocide. Unless you want to redefine genocide.

You should care bro...I really want to know wether the word genocide is all encompassing or if we humans just decide to call every killing genocide............

And like anony said you can't use our limited human knowledge to judge Gods actions...he is the source and giver of all life, so he knows how (and has the right) to act justly which in our eyes might seem to be unjust.........that is why I'm asking if the extermination of gadaffi and his cohorts(a group) carried out by the libyan insurgents supported by NATO was a genocidal act......

ijawkid:
For the matured persons.....and those persons have special assignments which ofcourse a child below 3 yrs can't fit into......heaven isn't a K.G class.....

Okay so not everyone goes to heaven. Does that mean most people who are good according to your Christian worldview would remain on earth?

ijawkid:
What if the person does not even know why he is doing it??.....

That isn't the argument I'm making.

ijawkid:
They stay right on this earth which is there original Home...chikena....!!!........

Okay. Are you talking about reincarnation or some earth in which it's all unicorns and rainbows where children play with lions?

ijawkid:
You should care bro...I really want to know wether the word genocide is all encompassing or if we humans just decide to call every killing genocide............

My point was that it had no bearing on this argument.

ijawkid:
And like anony said you can't use our limited human knowledge to judge Gods actions...he is the source and giver of all life, so he knows how (and has the right) to act justly which in our eyes might seem to be unjust.........that is why I'm asking if the extermination of gadaffi and his cohorts(a group) carried out by the libyan insurgents supported by NATO was a genocidal act......

In that case, you cannot tell whether or not God is actually good or evil because it may just be that those acts that seem in our eyes to be unjust are actually unjust and he enjoys watching people suffer. And if God is arbitrary, I see no point in bothering with him.

thehomer:
Then what do you affirm? Where do these children go? The Bible seems to indicate that people with childlike minds get to go to heaven. Who has more childlike minds than children?

I affirm nothing. I have not come across anything in the bible about the eternal fate of babies. You mistake "childlike faith" with "childlike mind".

No I don't think they do since they're unable to exhibit the sort of judgement that would make them liable for their actions. Now can you please tell me whether or not you think they do have a will?

I think three year olds have a will because they can make choices however I don't think they know the full moral consequences of their choices. The preceding is merely what I think.

Kidnapping isn't arrest. In fact, there's an idea of the citizen's arrest. Besides, as I'm sure you'll quickly say if someone else tried to compare your God to the government, you would say God isn't like the government won't you? You're yet to answer the question I raised there. Here it is again.

and once again, you conveniently miss the point of the analogy which is about authority.

If God commands people to commit a genocide, is that fine?

It is not genocide when you destroy something that you have created and have absolute authority over.

That isn't my question. My question is: where do they go after their lives have been ended by God or at his command?

The bible doesn't say

Where do you think the Bible says they go? Unless you can actually answer this, then you're in no position to determine whether or not it is altruism.

In the same way you are in no position to determine whether or not it is altruism in the Christian worldview

Actually, it is only with the right justification that the police car can go over the speed limit. You can also go over the speed limit in your own car if you have the right justification. Declaring that God can do whatever he likes makes the God an arbitrary God. Is the Christian God an arbitrary God?

If by arbitrary you mean that God has unlimited power and authority, then yes He is. But if by arbitrary you mean God does things on a whim, then no He isn't arbitrary as He has a fixed character. Which do you mean?

So, since you didn't create the Salmonella that has infected you means that you don't have the right to take antibiotics to kill it.

Are you equating human life to that of the salmonella? Secondly, are you saying that you lack the right to defend yourself against an attacker?

Actually, you need to show that I have a poor understanding of Christian theology because there are multiple strains of it some of which are contradictory.
You've just implied that the Christian God may as well be arbitrary and if he is, then he is unworthy of worship. Now you see why you should be careful to consider the justification for an action or entity before endorsing it.

If God is all powerful and all knowing and good, then in order to contest the goodness of His decisions you must know as much or more than He does about the case case you wish to contest. As men, we don't have that ability.

I'll give you an analogy:- Assuming the the government orders you as a junior police officer to arrest a Mr Okon who is relaxing at home with his family on charges of armed robbery. From where you stand, you don't know that he is guilty, all you know is that he is a happy family man. The only way you can legitimately contest the decision of the government is if you have more information than they do about Mr Okon.

Since you've implied that God can be arbitrary (which you've done over and over again), how do you know he hasn't decided to update the Bible that is if the Bible even teaches that he no longer permits genocide?

You have not even shown that the bible teaches that God permits genocide, you have only assumed it.

I'm not saying that one who does this is a Christian, I'm saying that one who does this is an altruist in the Christian worldview because such a person has paid the ultimate price to grant others the ultimate reward.

And how do you know this without knowing what Christianity says about the matter?

thehomer:

Wow. This is why people like you are a menace. If you cannot see the problem with a man ready to murder his own son for the sake of voices or visions, then I really don't think arguments can help you.

Good luck to you and yours. You surely need it.

Desperation, you silly OP which every fool in the street can refute, now u brought a totally unconnected issue, which underscores how foolish your op was, now u first post was God now vioces and vision, the fact remains, Abraham followed God command, which u clearly expressed, murder is one thing, Abraham son willingly sacrificed himself by even urging his father to follow God's commandment, but at the end no sacrifice occured! So what point like I indicated, the Abraham question was a SAVE MY FACE question having quashed your poorly reasoned OP! The funny thing is people like u rationalize murder and killings in the name of secualrity, and then turn around and say collateral damage! any way keep making dull ops like the above, it is always a source of entertainment for me and a sign of your unrivaled psuedo-intelligence!

Interesting thread, It's good to have Mr Anony back again. Im loving this discourse



Quick advice for thehomer:

Pls stop feeding the trolls.

Mr anony:
I affirm nothing. I have not come across anything in the bible about the eternal fate of babies. You mistake "childlike faith" with "childlike mind".

So you're sitting on the fence? Really? Who better than a child with a childlike mind can have childlike faith?

Mr anony:
I think three year olds have a will because they can make choices however I don't think they know the full moral consequences of their choices. The preceding is merely what I think.

Let me go with something even simpler. How about one year olds?

Mr anony:
and once again, you conveniently miss the point of the analogy which is about authority.

The mere presence of God doesn't grant him authority.

Mr anony:
It is not genocide when you destroy something that you have created and have absolute authority over.

Genocide has a certain meaning. Unless you wish to redefine it, I think we should stick to well known meaning in English. So, are you saying it isn't genocide when God commands people to commit what is defined as genocide?

Mr anony:
The bible doesn't say

And many theologians and Christians would disagree with you. Now who is ignorant about Christianity?

Mr anony:
In the same way you are in no position to determine whether or not it is altruism in the Christian worldview

Again, my assessment (and that of many other Christian theologians) is that those children go to heaven. Now if you don't know, then you're not qualified to participate in the debate until you do know.

Mr anony:
If by arbitrary you mean that God has unlimited power and authority, then yes He is. But if by arbitrary you mean God does things on a whim, then no He isn't arbitrary as He has a fixed character. Which do you mean?

By arbitrary, I mean what you mean with your examples of people just destroying whatever they create without justification basically on a whim. If he had a fixed character, then he cannot be permitting genocide on the one hand and according to you, now disallowing it on the other.

Mr anony:
Are you equating human life to that of the salmonella? Secondly, are you saying that you lack the right to defend yourself against an attacker?

No I'm not, you seem to be when you say that since man cannot create some life, they don't have a right to destroy it. I'm not saying that either. In fact, what I said before was the opposite of that. Now, do you think man has the right to kill?

Mr anony:
If God is all powerful and all knowing and good, then in order to contest the goodness of His decisions you must know as much or more than He does about the case case you wish to contest. As men, we don't have that ability.

If men don't have that ability, then how do you know he is good? Or even all knowing? I don't have to know as much as he does to know that allowing children to die of malaria, when he can do something about it, isn't a sign of goodness.

Mr anony:
I'll give you an analogy:- Assuming the the government orders you as a junior police officer to arrest a Mr Okon who is relaxing at home with his family on charges of armed robbery. From where you stand, you don't know that he is guilty, all you know is that he is a happy family man. The only way you can legitimately contest the decision of the government is if you have more information than they do about Mr Okon.

I don't think the government or the police works that way unless of course it is a very corrupt system. In which case, you cannot contest what they say or you too will be punished. I don't think you want to make that comparison with a corrupt system otherwise, one can simply say that it is exactly how your God is arbitrary. He claims authority because he thinks might makes right but obviously we as humans disagree.

Mr anony:
You have not even shown that the bible teaches that God permits genocide, you have only assumed it.

God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide.

Mr anony:
And how do you know this without knowing what Christianity says about the matter?

In my OP, I stated that it was a variant of the Christian God. Now since you claim to be ignorant of the fate of those children, I don't think you're qualified then to participate in the argument until their fate is sorted out.

cyrexx: Interesting thread, It's good to have Mr Anony back again. Im loving this discourse



Quick advice for thehomer:

Pls stop feeding the trolls.

You know me too well. I'm done with that troll. He really cannot see the problems with someone being willing to kill their child for some God. To paraphrase Ingersoll, if God can give such a command, what would the devil do?
Can the devil do worse than that?

thehomer:

Okay so not everyone goes to heaven. Does that mean most people who are good according to your Christian worldview would remain on earth?

Exactly my point.......

thehomer:

That isn't the argument I'm making.

I understand your argument,I'm just giving a counter question...

thehomer:

Okay. Are you talking about reincarnation or some earth in which it's all unicorns and rainbows where children play with lions?

Nope my bro...I'm talking about ressurection.......I don't believe in re-incarnation......

thehomer:

My point was that it had no bearing on this argument.

It does have a bearing my bro.....you can't just sit there and judge God that he is genocidal

thehomer:

In that case, you cannot tell whether or not God is actually good or evil because it may just be that those acts that seem in our eyes to be unjust are actually unjust and he enjoys watching people suffer. And if God is arbitrary, I see no point in bothering with him.

Why can't I tell if God is good or evil..??.....

God is all powerful and can do what he wants to accomplish his purposes which at the end of the day is for our own good........

What happened at sodom and gomorah was for the greater good....


You still haven't answered clearly if the rebel groups/NATO carried out a genocide on gadaffi and his cohorts.....

@thehomer
The christian god and allah is without doubt an arbitrary god, like they will tell you "the lord works in mysterious ways"

ijawkid:
Exactly my point.......

Okay that is yet another Christian view. In fact, it is one of the points of agreement with Jehovah's Witnesses.

ijawkid:
I understand your argument,I'm just giving a counter question...

Okay. If the person doesn't know, they may be insane, mentally deficient or controlled by God.

ijawkid:
Nope my bro...I'm talking about ressurection.......I don't believe in re-incarnation......

So is it the earth where children play around with lions?

ijawkid:
It does have a bearing my bro.....you can't just sit there and judge God that he is genocidal

Hey if the cap fits . . . . The thing is that what he's done meets the definition of genocide.

ijawkid:
Why can't I tell if God is good or evil..??.....

Because you do not have enough information to determine whether or not he is good.

ijawkid:
God is all powerful and can do what he wants to accomplish his purposes which at the end of the day is for our own good........

You don't know that it is for our own good. It may be for the good of the modern Jews or for the good of the aliens 50 light-years away who will need to eat or use humans for their own ends. You simply don't know that.

ijawkid:
What happened at sodom and gomorah was for the greater good....

What greater good? Couldn't he have separated the adults from the children? You said he is all powerful didn't you? Or is God now limited to consequentialism?

ijawkid:
You still haven't answered clearly if the rebel groups/NATO carried out a genocide on gadaffi and his cohorts.....

Again I don't see what bearing this will have. e.g If I say yes, then you've simply shown that people still commit genocide. If I say no, then it means non-combatants weren't being targeted neither was the aim to wipe out a tribe.

thehomer:

Okay that is yet another Christian view. In fact, it is one of the points of agreement with Jehovah's Witnesses.

It is what the scriptures teaches....

thehomer:

Okay. If the person doesn't know, they may be insane, mentally deficient or controlled by God.

I take the bolded......

thehomer:

So is it the earth where children play around with lions?

If you say so.......it is the earth where all wickedness and madness is a thing of the past........

thehomer:

Hey if the cap fits . . . . The thing is that what he's done meets the definition of genocide.

The human definition of genocide which ofcourse isn't Gods view.....abi??......

thehomer:

Because you do not have enough information to determine whether or not he is good.

....

.....I have the scriptures to feed me with that information......all In all God is just and knows what's best for mankind......

thehomer:

You don't know that it is for our own good. It may be for the good of the modern Jews or for the good of the aliens 50 light-years away who will need to eat or use humans for their own ends. You simply don't know that.

Lol....I do know bro........because it is far from God to act unjustly.......

Gods actions were for the good of all living back then.......the city of sodom and gomorrah was as good as gone....

thehomer:

what God did was indeed
What greater good? Couldn't he have separated the adults from the children? You said he is all powerful didn't you? Or is God now limited to consequentialism?

Can you please explain how God could have done that??......God through his faithful servant had warned the people about there misconducts........besides the scriptures says
It was the wicked that was destroyed...you might just be the one forcing the notion that there were kids amongst those who were destroyed....maybe God miraculously made it that the sodomites never had kids who were below the age of independence.....

I know you never thought of the bolded...

When abraham had a discussion with God as regards sodom and gomorah before its destruction it was agreed that only the wicked would be destroyed........

thehomer:

Again I don't see what bearing this will have. e.g If I say yes, then you've simply shown that people still commit genocide. If I say no, then it means non-combatants weren't being targeted neither was the aim to wipe out a tribe.

Answer na ............remember we want to find out if the creator of every life and thing really committed genocide

cyrexx: Interesting thread, It's good to have Mr Anony back again. Im loving this discourse



Quick advice for thehomer:

Pls stop feeding the trolls.

Lol crier long time no see, I see u doing ur usual rounds of butt kissing, well carry on then!

thehomer:

You know me too well. I'm done with that troll. He really cannot see the problems with someone being willing to kill their child for some God. To paraphrase Ingersoll, if God can give such a command, what would the devil do?
Can the devil do worse than that?

Well the devil that lives in you would make sure the Abraham son had died, but we see God never allowed such! In addition the devil that lives in you makes killing people for secularity quiet ok as long as religion is suppressed!

nnofaith: @thehomer
The christian god and allah is without doubt an arbitrary god, like they will tell you "the lord works in mysterious ways"

What are u still doing here? I thought u were gone? Are u here for round 2? any way I see like hommer u are quite an ignorant man!

@ thehomer: There are 2 problems with the conclusion derived from premise 3. The first is that it doesn't logically follow from premise 3. The reason being that the morality of killing babies is not treated in any of your premises. It is simply assumed in the conclusion.
The second problem is that even if we assume your syllogism is valid the conclusion ignores factors such as the grief caused to parents, potential loss of latent talents of slain babies and the legal right of the child to life.
Given all that I've said I'll advise you go back to the drawing table and restructure your argument.

ijawkid:

It is what the scriptures teaches....

Yeah that is one strain of Christianity.

ijawkid:
I take the bolded......

Do you want to? That would mean God made that person kill the young children.

ijawkid:
If you say so.......it is the earth where all wickedness and madness is a thing of the past........

Okay. Would you say that world is infinitely better than this one?

ijawkid:
The human definition of genocide which ofcourse isn't Gods view.....abi??......

God's view isn't needed here just as it isn't needed to define what football is.

ijawkid:
....

.....I have the scriptures to feed me with that information......all In all God is just and knows what's best for mankind......

Is the Bible a good source of information? I mean it talks about a global flood, plants existing before the sun, talking animals, a person living in a big fish and zombies roaming a city.

ijawkid:
Lol....I do know bro........because it is far from God to act unjustly.......

Gods actions were for the good of all living back then.......the city of sodom and gomorrah was as good as gone....

You need to show some evidence that you actually know. The mere claim isn't good enough. Why was your God unable to save those children in Sodom and Gomorrah?

ijawkid:
Can you please explain how God could have done that??......God through his faithful servant had warned the people about there misconducts........besides the scriptures says
It was the wicked that was destroyed...you might just be the one forcing the notion that there were kids amongst those who were destroyed....maybe God miraculously made it that the sodomites never had kids who were below the age of independence.....

I know you never thought of the bolded...

When abraham had a discussion with God as regards sodom and gomorah before its destruction it was agreed that only the wicked would be destroyed........

God could have done it the same way he saved some people bitten by a snake from dying by looking at a bronze snake. I don't think they made that agreement.

ijawkid:
Answer na ............remember we want to find out if the creator of every life and thing really committed genocide

NATO isn't the supposed creator of every life now is it?

nnofaith: @thehomer
The christian god and allah is without doubt an arbitrary god, like they will tell you "the lord works in mysterious ways"

Let's hope they realize this quickly.

vedaxcool:

What are u still doing here? I thought u were gone? Are u here for round 2? any way I see like hommer u are quite an ignorant man!

your sentiments,bereft of intellect!

Uyi Iredia: @ thehomer: There are 2 problems with the conclusion derived from premise 3. The first is that it doesn't logically follow from premise 3. The reason being that the morality of killing babies is not treated in any of your premises. It is simply assumed in the conclusion.

Actually, premise 2 covers it. God's desires trump yours. Just ask Jonah.

Uyi Iredia:
The second problem is that even if we assume your syllogism is valid the conclusion ignores factors such as the grief caused to parents, potential loss of latent talents of slain babies and the legal right of the child to life.
Given all that I've said I'll advise you go back to the drawing table and restructure your argument.

Their grief isn't as important as God's will being done. Their talents aren't lost, they'll be able to express themselves in Heaven. Note that what I'm ultimately saying which is that one who does this is the ultimate altruist.