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Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by ChristKid1: 7:13pm On May 16, 2013
I came across this so i decided to share. I guess this is the right section to post it since it's addressing non muslims.
Let’s face it—most of us don’t exactly dig Islam. According to a recent Gallup Poll over fifty percent of Americans consider Islam a ‘critical’ threat, with similar numbers reported in France and Germany . Turn on the TV or pick up newspaper and you’ll be confronted with horror stories about honor killings, terrorist attacks and sharia law taking over Western Cities Pretty scary, huh—or is it? Turns out a lot of our fears may be ill-informed at best, completely made up at worst. I’m talking stuff like:

10)

Sharia Law

As a legal system, Sharia Law is the very definition of ‘insanity’. Instead of things like fines or imprisonment, it advocates whipping, amputations, blinding and the death penalty for crimes as dumb as wearing pants.[/b] And, according to our TV pundits, it’s as Islamic as flowing beards and going to Mecca.

Except of course it isn’t. Out of the fifty or so majority-Muslim countries, guess how many implement full Sharia? Ten. But they’re probably the big ones, right? Nope—only Pakistan has both Sharia Law and a population of over 100 million. Four of the five most populous Muslim nations on Earth (Indonesia, India, Bangladeshand Egypt) either use a watered-down version or don’t use Sharia atall. Globally, more than 50 percent of Muslim-majority legal systems have no basis in Sharia whatsoever. Oh, and those rumors about Sharia Law being forced on Western cities? Well, a 2009 Britishpoll found 79 percent of Muslims thought Christianity should dictate UK law . That’s a higher percentage than Christians themselves.

9)
Honor Killings

Make no mistake, honor killings area real problem. Because some idiots have a warped sense of priority, anywhere between five thousand and twenty thousand women are killed each year by relatives. But, despite what you hear, the problem is far from an Islamic one. In Turkey and Pakistan , cases of Christian honor killings are frequently reported, while India has seen a stratospheric rise among the Hindu population. According to some women’s rights groups, Jordan’s Christian community is even responsible for more killings per capita than the Muslim majority. Yet the perceptionstill somehow remains that this is something only Muslims do, despite there being no mention of honor killings in either the Koran or Hadith.

8.)
Population

To be fair, not everyone voicing concerns about Islam is expecting violent takeover and Sharia Law. Some are simply worried about thelevel of immigration, which would be fair enough if it weren’t so unbelievably tiny. Thanks to historic links with Morocco and Algeria, France is likely the country with the biggest Muslim population in Western Europe. Know the percentage of French citizens who identify as Muslim? Seven. That’s less than the number of Americans who think they’ve seen a flying saucer . Even our most pessimistic estimates put the likely number of European Muslims by 2030 at eightpercent of the population—and even then only if you include the Balkan states that already have Islamic majorities. For comparison, the populations of traditionally-Islamic Egypt, Syria and Indonesia are all over ten percent Christian.

7)
Intolerance
Thanks to its association with Sharia Law, Islam is seen by most as a pretty intolerant religion. I mean, the Koran hates gay people and advocates persecuting Christians. Who’d want to be a minority in a Muslim country?

Well, it depends on the country. See, despite its track record of homophobia, the Iranian government—for example—not only recognizes transsexuals, it facilitates more sex-change operations than any other country bar Thailand. Post-op trans-people are given all the rights of their new gender and even allowed to marry, making Iran more progressive with trans-rights than Illinois, Texas or Ohio. As for religious persecution, it’s true that passages of the Koran are pretty anti-Christian—just as other passages warn against forcibly converting people. Like the Bible, it’s down to interpretation—which is why you get stories like that of the militia-targeted Iraqi Christian who was saved by his Muslim neighbors. And while we’re on the subject of acceptance, Indonesia is home to one of the world’s biggest gay pride events and Turkey is taking steps toward legally recognizing gay couples. Basically, assuming all Muslims are intolerant based on literal readings of the Koran is like claiming all Christians stone their neighbors for picking up sticks on Saturday.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by ChristKid1: 7:16pm On May 16, 2013
6
Science



We’re used to hearing that Islam is backward, intellectually-broken and about as open to science as David Icke. Never mind all the scientific, legal and mathematical advances made under the Islamic Golden Age—that was hundreds of years ago. Modern Islam and reason are incompatible, right?

Try telling that to Pakistan. Despite being an absolute basket-case, India’s belligerent neighbor churns out some of the best minds in Physics, Mathematics and Engineering anywhere in the world. In December, the minister for science and technology even pledged to allocate two percent of GDP to research and development by 2020. For comparison, the UK currently allocates around 1.7. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg: Turkey and Malaysia both have active space programs, while Saudi Arabia and Qatar are pouring billions into research universities. Even backward Iran invests hard enough in computer science to launch crippling cyber-attacks on US companies, despite being incapable of using Photoshop. It’s not Islam itself that hates science, just a handful of Idiõts who happen to be Islamic.

5
Women’s Rights



Let’s be blunt: growing up poor and female in Afghanistan or Pakistan is a bad situation to be in. However, things are no better in Christian D.R. Congo and only slightly in secular India. According to this report commissioned in 2011, only three of the top five worst countries in the world for women were Islamic—with two of those being open war zones. Similar polls regularly list non-Islamic Chad, Nepal, Guatemala and Russia right at the bottom, alongside places like Yemen and Saudi Arabia. And while Pakistan may have little respect for women’s rights, it still found time to elect a female leader—as did Indonesia, Bangladesh, Kyrgyzstan and Turkey. But what about the Burka, symbol of female oppression? Again, a handful of crappy countries do require it by law, but they’re vastly outnumbered by those that don’t—Turkey, Bangladesh, Tunisia and Syria even banned it from public places.

4
Integration


On the subject of the burka, most of you have probably heard about Europe’s recent infatuation with banning it. Given that people are so riled up about the issue, it stands to reason there must be a problem with Muslim integration, right?

Not exactly. Know how many people the Netherlands burka ban affected? Less than 100. That’s about 0.0006 percent of the population. In France, the number was 367—a percentage so small you’d be better off simply writing ‘zero’. Additionally, half of those who wore the burka were found to be young white converts—suggesting it’s less a failure of integration than the latest phase of adolescent rebellion. As for Muslim immigrants refusing to adopt their new home’s values and traditions; a British study found that eighty three percent of Muslims were proud to be British, compared to seventy nine percent of the general public. Even crazier, while eighty two percent of Muslims wanted to live in diverse, integrated neighborhoods, only sixty three percent of Brits did. Turns out the myth of Muslim non-integration is exactly that: a myth.

3
Media Image


We all know by now that you can’t trust the media. When they’re not busy hounding innocent people to suicide, they’re making up stories or just generally being dicks. But we still kind of expect their reports to have at least some basis in fact. So it may come as a shock to discover they objectively don’t.

According to a report commissioned for a UK government inquiry into press ethics, stories on British Muslims were “unsatisfactory… sloppy and sometimes stereotypical” and often “false and racist”. The study found nine out of ten stories mentioning Muslims were negative, while an overview of eight years’ worth of papers concluded two thirds of them reported Islam as a threat, with references to ‘radical Muslims’ outnumbering any other kind by seventeen to one. A further study from the University of Ottawa added that British news outlets go out of their way to associate Islam with terrorism. America fared little better, with bad and stereotypical coverage of terrorism being largely blamed for a rise on racist attacks against Sikhs.

2
Anti-Semitism


One of the most damaging beliefs about Islam is that it’s inherently anti-Semitic. Do a random sample of a group of Iranians or Palestinians and you’ll almost certainly find an undercurrent of racism so thick it has to be measured in Mel Gibsons. But, equally, guess what you’ll find if you do a survey of the Israeli army? That’s right: Muslims.

According to this BBC report, there are thousands of Muslims who serve in the IDF—literally giving their lives for the Jewish State. And it’s not something forced on them either: Israeli Muslims aren’t required to do military service. Some do it to get access to benefits, some to improve their employment prospects, and some— like this guy—simply do it for a love of Israel. Because the Koran includes the story of Moses, Islamic scholars since the ninth century have argued that God gave Israel to the Jewish people, a bit of history we missed here in the West. Even in the present a minority of Muslims still identify as Zionists. Since this includes the former president of Indonesia, whose voting public consists of around 200 million Muslims, anti-Semitism is apparently nowhere near as rife as we think.

1
Terrorism


A 2006 study found people in Nigeria were more supportive of terrorism than anywhere else in the world. shocked Want to guess who ranked second? Iraqis? Saudis? Maybe Pakistanis?

Nope, it was Americans. When asked whether “bombings and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians” were ever justifiable, only forty six percent of US residents said no. To put that in perspective, eighty six percent of Pakistani’s responded that hurting civilians was “never justifiable”. Even weirder, of the remaining Pakistani’s who did support terrorism; seventy nine percent of them also supported American humanitarian intervention. While it seems counterintuitive at first, you gotta remember that most terrorist attacks take place in Muslim countries and kill mostly Muslims. When researchers crunched the figures for 2006-08, they found non-Westerners were thirty eight times more likely to be killed in a terrorist attack than Westerners. When active combat zones were removed from the statistics, the share of non-Westerns killed by Al-Qaida was ninety-nine percent. That’s not a typo—all but a handful of people blown up by Bin Laden’s goons last decade were Muslims themselves. So while, yes, there are Muslims who think being a terrorist is a noble goal, they’re vastly outnumbered by those who think being a terrorist is kind of a dickish thing to do.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by ChristKid1: 7:20pm On May 16, 2013
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by PastorKun(m): 7:48pm On May 16, 2013
Is dat all
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by ChristKid1: 8:48pm On May 16, 2013
^ Pastor troll you have anything reasonable to add to the topic?
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by truthman2012(m): 9:22pm On May 16, 2013
@ op

There is a message for you in Genesis 16. It is only 16 verses.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by truthman2012(m): 9:25pm On May 16, 2013
@ op

There is a message for you in Genesis 16. It is only 16 verses. Pay serious attention to verse 12.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by proo212(m): 10:12pm On May 16, 2013
Disarming the gullible.....
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by ChristKid1: 11:07pm On May 16, 2013
truthman2012: @ op

There is a message for you in Genesis 16. It is only 16 verses. Pay serious attention to verse 12.
Stick to the topic, can you do that?
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by ChristKid1: 11:08pm On May 16, 2013
proo212: Disarming the gullible.....
And the gullible here is?
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by wiegraf: 12:07am On May 17, 2013
Chris†Kid:
^ Pastor troll you have anything reasonable to add to the topic?

Though I agree the article flimsy with him probably for different reasons, be fair, it's poorly written and lenghty therefore it's trollish. Only one or two valid points in there. I might not be able to go through them all, time.


10)

Sharia Law

As a legal system, Sharia Law is the very definition of ‘insanity’. Instead of things like fines or imprisonment, it advocates whipping, amputations, blinding and the death penalty for crimes as dumb as wearing pants.[/b] And, according to our TV pundits, it’s as Islamic as flowing beards and going to Mecca.

Except of course it isn’t. Out of the fifty or so majority-Muslim countries, guess how many implement full Sharia? Ten. But they’re probably the big ones, right? Nope—only Pakistan has both Sharia Law and a population of over 100 million. Four of the five most populous Muslim nations on Earth (Indonesia, India, Bangladeshand Egypt) either use a watered-down version or don’t use Sharia atall. Globally, more than 50 percent of Muslim-majority legal systems have no basis in Sharia whatsoever. Oh, and those rumors about Sharia Law being forced on Western cities? Well, a 2009 Britishpoll found 79 percent of Muslims thought Christianity should dictate UK law . That’s a higher percentage than Christians themselves.

And why is religion even a factor when making laws in a secular society? Watered down shariah? Why is shariah even being mentioned? How is it a good thing that muslims support a marriage of church and state even more so than xtians?

Marriage of church and state is the problem. This point could bear (very little) weight only if all the people complaining were xtians with an agenda to mix church and state, and they're not.

Two wrongs don't make a right as well, something we'll encounter time and again with these 'points'



9)
Honor Killings

Make no mistake, honor killings area real problem. Because some idiots have a warped sense of priority, anywhere between five thousand and twenty thousand women are killed each year by relatives. But, despite what you hear, the problem is far from an Islamic one. In Turkey and Pakistan , cases of Christian honor killings are frequently reported, while India has seen a stratospheric rise among the Hindu population. According to some women’s rights groups, Jordan’s Christian community is even responsible for more killings per capita than the Muslim majority. Yet the perceptionstill somehow remains that this is something only Muslims do, despite there being no mention of honor killings in either the Koran or Hadith.

And the fear is of this people bringing their culture along with them, not just religion. Xtians bringing such a culture would rightly be condemned as well, no?

The above alone is enough, but there's the issue of cherry picking which cultural bits are islamic and which ones are not. Like noted, islam is a complete 'way of life', even bringing along with it a legal code; shariah. Now, the koran/hadiths surely couldn't cover all legal conditions, can they? (Especially as they were made 1400 years ago, no?) So, where do they look to then when the lines are blurry and there's no clear cut solution in core islamic text? That's right, the culture.

We now have people marrying 13 year olds, some say it's islamic, others no. We ourselves have tossed various bits of our own culture to slavishly subscribe to our arabic slave master's ones. I don't think the west is foolish enough to let that happen to themselves, especially of ones as egregious as honor killings, they want to be/were/are slave masters themselves.


8.)
Population

To be fair, not everyone voicing concerns about Islam is expecting violent takeover and Sharia Law. Some are simply worried about thelevel of immigration, which would be fair enough if it weren’t so unbelievably tiny. Thanks to historic links with Morocco and Algeria, France is likely the country with the biggest Muslim population in Western Europe. Know the percentage of French citizens who identify as Muslim? Seven. That’s less than the number of Americans who think they’ve seen a flying saucer . Even our most pessimistic estimates put the likely number of European Muslims by 2030 at eightpercent of the population—and even then only if you include the Balkan states that already have Islamic majorities. For comparison, the populations of traditionally-Islamic Egypt, Syria and Indonesia are all over ten percent Christian.

Yes, they are afraid of it going from unbelievably thin to unbelievably fat. With good reason, seeing as how shariah robs one of rights, mixes church and state, etc. Or that various bits of their cultures are questionable. etc.


7)
Intolerance
Thanks to its association with Sharia Law, Islam is seen by most as a pretty intolerant religion. I mean, the Koran hates gay people and advocates persecuting Christians. Who’d want to be a minority in a Muslim country?

Well, it depends on the country. See, despite its track record of homophobia, the Iranian government—for example—not only recognizes transsexuals, it facilitates more sex-change operations than any other country bar Thailand. Post-op trans-people are given all the rights of their new gender and even allowed to marry, making Iran more progressive with trans-rights than Illinois, Texas or Ohio. As for religious persecution, it’s true that passages of the Koran are pretty anti-Christian—just as other passages warn against forcibly converting people. Like the Bible, it’s down to interpretation—which is why you get stories like that of the militia-targeted Iraqi Christian who was saved by his Muslim neighbors. And while we’re on the subject of acceptance, Indonesia is home to one of the world’s biggest gay pride events and Turkey is taking steps toward legally recognizing gay couples. Basically, assuming all Muslims are intolerant based on literal readings of the Koran is like claiming all Christians stone their neighbors for picking up sticks on Saturday.


Depends on the country? What is shariah's general stance on homosexuality? What of kaffirs?

Has Iran hanged people for the so terrible crime of being gay in recent times or not? Again, why is this even an issue in which religion has a say?

Two wrongs, again, don't make a right.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by EatmyShorts: 12:12am On May 17, 2013
I love Jesus.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by wiegraf: 12:36am On May 17, 2013
op:
Science

We’re used to hearing that Islam is backward, intellectually-broken and about as open to science as David Icke. Never mind all the scientific, legal and mathematical advances made under the Islamic Golden Age—that was hundreds of years ago. Modern Islam and reason are incompatible, right?

Try telling that to Pakistan. Despite being an absolute basket-case, India’s belligerent neighbor churns out some of the best minds in Physics, Mathematics and Engineering anywhere in the world. In December, the minister for science and technology even pledged to allocate two percent of GDP to research and development by 2020. For comparison, the UK currently allocates around 1.7. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg: Turkey and Malaysia both have active space programs, while Saudi Arabia and Qatar are pouring billions into research universities. Even backward Iran invests hard enough in computer science to launch crippling cyber-attacks on US companies, despite being incapable of using Photoshop. It’s not Islam itself that hates science, just a handful of Idiõts who happen to be Islamic.

By a Pakistani Physicist

http://ptonline.aip.org/journals/doc/PHTOAD-ft/vol_60/iss_8/49_1.shtml?bypassSSO=1


pakistani physicist:
Scientific output

A useful, if imperfect, indicator of scientific output is the number of published scientific research papers, together with the citations to them. Table 1 shows the output of the seven most scientifically productive Muslim countries for physics papers, over the period from 1 January 1997 to 28 February 2007, together with the total number of publications in all scientific fields. A comparison with Brazil, India, China, and the US reveals significantly smaller numbers. A study by academics at the International Islamic University Malaysia2 showed that OIC countries have 8.5 scientists, engineers, and technicians per 1000 population, compared with a world average of 40.7, and 139.3 for countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. (For more on the OECD, see http://www.oecd.org.) Forty-six Muslim countries contributed 1.17% of the world's science literature, whereas 1.66% came from India alone and 1.48% from Spain. Twenty Arab countries contributed 0.55%, compared with 0.89% by Israel alone. The US NSF records that of the 28 lowest producers of scientific articles in 2003, half belong to the OIC.

Malaysia—a rather atypical Muslim country with a 40% non-Muslim minority—is much smaller than neighboring Indonesia but is nevertheless more productive. Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the UAE, and other states that have many foreign scientists are scientifically far ahead of other Arab states.



Why? Lots more in that article. Read when you have the time then make up your mind.

Spain translates more books into Spanish yearly than the Arabic world has through time. Discussed here

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-368796.html


op:
5
Women’s Rights

Let’s be blunt: growing up poor and female in Afghanistan or Pakistan is a bad situation to be in. However, things are no better in Christian D.R. Congo and only slightly in secular India. According to this report commissioned in 2011, only three of the top five worst countries in the world for women were Islamic—with two of those being open war zones. Similar polls regularly list non-Islamic Chad, Nepal, Guatemala and Russia right at the bottom, alongside places like Yemen and Saudi Arabia. And while Pakistan may have little respect for women’s rights, it still found time to elect a female leader—as did Indonesia, Bangladesh, Kyrgyzstan and Turkey. But what about the Burka, symbol of female oppression? Again, a handful of crappy countries do require it by law, but they’re vastly outnumbered by those that don’t—Turkey, Bangladesh, Tunisia and Syria even banned it from public places.

As above, culture. Two wrongs don't make a right. He rather amazingly breezes through their legal rights as well. Incredible. 2 women = 1 man in court?!

op:
4
Integration

On the subject of the burka, most of you have probably heard about Europe’s recent infatuation with banning it. Given that people are so riled up about the issue, it stands to reason there must be a problem with Muslim integration, right?

Not exactly. Know how many people the Netherlands burka ban affected? Less than 100. That’s about 0.0006 percent of the population. In France, the number was 367—a percentage so small you’d be better off simply writing ‘zero’. Additionally, half of those who wore the burka were found to be young white converts—suggesting it’s less a failure of integration than the latest phase of adolescent rebellion. As for Muslim immigrants refusing to adopt their new home’s values and traditions; a British study found that eighty three percent of Muslims were proud to be British, compared to seventy nine percent of the general public. Even crazier, while eighty two percent of Muslims wanted to live in diverse, integrated neighborhoods, only sixty three percent of Brits did. Turns out the myth of Muslim non-integration is exactly that: a myth.

Again, the fear is of them suddenly gaining the numbers to be able to dictate policy and ultimately, infringe on rights.

op:
3
Media Image

We all know by now that you can’t trust the media. When they’re not busy hounding innocent people to suicide, they’re making up stories or just generally being Joysticks. But we still kind of expect their reports to have at least some basis in fact. So it may come as a shock to discover they objectively don’t.

According to a report commissioned for a UK government inquiry into press ethics, stories on British Muslims were “unsatisfactory… sloppy and sometimes stereotypical” and often “false and racist”. The study found nine out of ten stories mentioning Muslims were negative, while an overview of eight years’ worth of papers concluded two thirds of them reported Islam as a threat, with references to ‘radical Muslims’ outnumbering any other kind by seventeen to one. A further study from the University of Ottawa added that British news outlets go out of their way to associate Islam with terrorism. America fared little better, with bad and stereotypical coverage of terrorism being largely blamed for a rise on racist attacks against Sikhs.

This, at least, is a somewhat valid criticism. Also, obviously, they're not all bad. But do note, these 'moderates' seem to conveniently not like making their voices heard. (Until they do that, they don't deserve to be taken seriously, but that's another issue)

op:
2
Anti-Semitism

One of the most damaging beliefs about Islam is that it’s inherently anti-Semitic. Do a random sample of a group of Iranians or Palestinians and you’ll almost certainly find an undercurrent of racism so thick it has to be measured in Mel Gibsons. But, equally, guess what you’ll find if you do a survey of the Israeli army? That’s right: Muslims.

According to this BBC report, there are thousands of Muslims who serve in the IDF—literally giving their lives for the Jewish State. And it’s not something forced on them either: Israeli Muslims aren’t required to do military service. Some do it to get access to benefits, some to improve their employment prospects, and some— like this guy—simply do it for a love of Israel. Because the Koran includes the story of Moses, Islamic scholars since the ninth century have argued that God gave Israel to the Jewish people, a bit of history we missed here in the West. Even in the present a minority of Muslims still identify as Zionists. Since this includes the former president of Indonesia, whose voting public consists of around 200 million Muslims, anti-Semitism is apparently nowhere near as rife as we think.

Yes, two wrongs make a right, excellent. And you have noticed the fair amount of criticism Israel garners as well, yes?

op:
1
Terrorism

A 2006 study found people in Nigeria were more supportive of terrorism than anywhere else in the world. shocked Want to guess who ranked second? Iraqis? Saudis? Maybe Pakistanis?

Nope, it was Americans. When asked whether “bombings and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians” were ever justifiable, only forty six percent of US residents said no. To put that in perspective, eighty six percent of Pakistani’s responded that hurting civilians was “never justifiable”. Even weirder, of the remaining Pakistani’s who did support terrorism; seventy nine percent of them also supported American humanitarian intervention. While it seems counterintuitive at first, you gotta remember that most terrorist attacks take place in Muslim countries and kill mostly Muslims. When researchers crunched the figures for 2006-08, they found non-Westerners were thirty eight times more likely to be killed in a terrorist attack than Westerners. When active combat zones were removed from the statistics, the share of non-Westerns killed by Al-Qaida was ninety-nine percent. That’s not a typo—all but a handful of people blown up by Bin Laden’s goons last decade were Muslims themselves. So while, yes, there are Muslims who think being a terrorist is a noble goal, they’re vastly outnumbered by those who think being a terrorist is kind of a dickish thing to do.

So, they're against terrorism because they are victims? They had to bomb themselves before they could figure out it was somehow wrong? This author is a joke, how does this help the muslim's plight?

Anyways, like he notes here, regardless of people's opinions or what they may actually say to your face, they happen to be the ones who actually perpetuate most acts of terrorism. That's why they are (apparently) against it even. And this is why they have the reputation they have.

This is not to say the west is sinless, mind you. But again, two wrongs....
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by ChristKid1: 2:52am On May 17, 2013
wiegraf:

Though I agree the article flimsy with him probably for different reasons, be fair, it's poorly written and lenghty therefore it's trollish. Only one or two valid points in there. I might not be able to go through them all, time.
Everything is trollish to you. Coming from someone makes lenghty posts all the time i don't know why you are complaining.


And why is religion even a factor when making laws in a secular society? Watered down shariah? Why is shariah even being mentioned? How is it a good thing that muslims support a marriage of church and state even more so than xtians?

Marriage of church and state is the problem. This point could bear (very little) weight only if all the people complaining were xtians with an agenda to mix church and state, and they're not.

Two wrongs don't make a right as well, something we'll encounter time and again with these 'points'

The article didnt mention anything about religion being a factor in making laws in a secular society. If anything it's trying to prove otherwise. As clearly stated in the article all rumors of forcing shariah down westerners throat are just what it is _ rumors when majority muslim countries themselves dont even practice it themselves how much more them?

And yes its a good thing they support marriage of church and state. Nobody is forcing shariah down westerners throat except of course occasional rants from few fanatics. Thats all there is to it.
'two wrongs dont make a right' doesnt even apply here.


And the fear is of this people bringing their culture along with them, not just religion. Xtians bringing such a culture would rightly be condemned as well, no?

The above alone is enough, but there's the issue of cherry picking which cultural bits are islamic and which ones are not. Like noted, islam is a complete 'way of life', even bringing along with it a legal code; shariah. Now, the koran/hadiths surely couldn't cover all legal conditions, can they? (Especially as they were made 1400 years ago, no?) So, where do they look to then when the lines are blurry and there's no clear cut solution in core islamic text? That's right, the culture.

We now have people marrying 13 year olds, some say it's islamic, others no. We ourselves have tossed various bits of our own culture to slavishly subscribe to our arabic slave master's ones. I don't think the west is foolish enough to let that happen to themselves, especially of ones as egregious as honor killings, they want to be/were/are slave masters themselves.

The point made here is quite clear, honor killings carried out by both christians, muslims even hindus have no basis in their religious texts.
Its clearly a cultural problem that needs to be addressed and put an end to. So when it comes to honor killings its not an islamic problem.

Yes, they are afraid of it going from unbelievably thin to unbelievably fat. With good reason, seeing as how shariah robs one of rights, mixes church and state, etc. Or that various bits of their cultures are questionable. etc.
going from unbelievable thin to unbelievable fat is all in your mind. Just as we've cases of those that embraced burka we've had those that dropped it as well. Its all in your head.


Depends on the country? What is shariah's general stance on homosexuality? What of kaffirs?

Has Iran hanged people for the so terrible crime of being gay in recent times or not? Again, why is this even an issue in which religion has a say?

Two wrongs, again, don't make a right.

it does have an anti gay stance as all religions (at least abrahamic ones) do. But you have to be highly tolerant to facilate sex change for transeexuals, given full rights and be home to world's biggest gay pride event.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by ChristKid1: 2:53am On May 17, 2013
wiegraf:

By a Pakistani Physicist

http://ptonline.aip.org/journals/doc/PHTOAD-ft/vol_60/iss_8/49_1.shtml?bypassSSO=1




Why? Lots more in that article. Read when you have the time then make up your mind.

Spain translates more books into Spanish yearly than the Arabic world has through time. Discussed here

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-368796.html
they may have their shortcomings in scientific field. It still doesnt negate the progress they've made in that area given the amount of energy and resources invested.



As above, culture. Two wrongs don't make a right. He rather amazingly breezes through their legal rights as well. Incredible. 2 women = 1 man in court?!

hmm i dont know about that.


Again, the fear is of them suddenly gaining the numbers to be able to dictate policy and ultimately, infringe on rights.

again the fear is in your head.




This, at least, is a somewhat valid criticism. Also, obviously, they're not all bad. But do note, these 'moderates' seem to conveniently not like making their voices heard. (Until they do that, they don't deserve to be taken seriously, but that's another issue)
OK

So, they're against terrorism because they are victims? They had to bomb themselves before they could figure out it was somehow wrong? This author is a joke, how does this help the muslim's plight?

And somehow you think they control the actions of minority extremist among them right?
Just like saying atheists wouldnt be against stalin even though they're victims of his terrorists acts.

Anyways, like he notes here, regardless of people's opinions or what they may actually say to your face, they happen to be the ones who actually perpetuate most acts of terrorism. That's why they are (apparently) against it even. And this is why they have the reputation they have.

This is not to say the west is sinless, mind you. But again, two wrongs....
dont make right. Yes. Just that condemnation for the west is not just as loud.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by deols(f): 6:22am On May 17, 2013
Everything said on here has always been known to be so. It is good hearing someone else say them.

That the Op posted it is surprising. It is quite heart warming to seea part of the populace not being bigots.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by Nobody: 6:52am On May 17, 2013
deols: Everything said on here gas always been known to be so. It is good hearing someone else aay them.

That the Op posted it us surprising. It is quite heart warming to c a part of the populace not being bigots.


And this is a mod?

Ready to call people bigots for no just reason? So if someone doesnt agree to this flawed article, the person is a bigot?


This article that uses one wrong to justify another? Mtchew

1 Like

Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by ChristKid1: 8:31am On May 17, 2013
deols: Everything said on here gas always been known to be so. It is good hearing someone else aay them.

That the Op posted it us surprising. It is quite heart warming to c a part of the populace not being bigots.

is that why you were hiding my comments in your section because you prejudged me as a bigot?
Waka pass jor you are a bigot.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by ChristKid1: 8:35am On May 17, 2013
Logicboy03:


And this is a mod?

Ready to call people bigots for no just reason? So if someone doesnt agree to this flawed article, the person is a bigot?


This article that uses one wrong to justify another? Mtchew

Sharap illogicboy
the article is just clearing up some steroetypes against a particular religion.
I know you'd rather wallow in your ignorance.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by vedaxcool(m): 8:49am On May 17, 2013
Chris†Kid:


Sharap illogicboy
the article is just clearing up some steroetypes against a particular religion.
I know you'd rather wallow in your ignorance.

grin grin grin grin grin
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by wiegraf: 9:36am On May 17, 2013
Ah, xtian with fight? Where have you been?

Chris†Kid:

Everything is trollish to you. Coming from someone makes lenghty posts all the time i don't know why you are complaining.

The bold is wrong. Most of what I see here is illogical or downright stoopid. I hate illogical. I really, really do. I have little problem with trolling, I find it amusing most times. Foolishness though, genetically, I cannot stand.

As for the rest, thanks for making my point. I spend a lot of time here when I really should be doing other things. Solution? Cut down the time spent here. See?

Endeavor to limit the foolishness if you can please, it irks me.

Chris†Kid:

The article didnt mention anything about religion being a factor in making laws in a secular society. If anything it's trying to prove otherwise.

And what exactly is your understanding of shariah? Last I checked it was a legal code, is it not? The concern is about implementing shariah in the west, no?

You seem to be lost. To be clear, he is trying to prove it is not an issue (from this particular crowd, ie muslims) in the west - as of now. This isn't the problem most critics (myself included) have. The concern from critics is that it will (inevitably) become a problem in the future. Understand?

It's about preventing cancer, more or else. Both short term and long term. Consider all I've stated so far in this context.

I would have imagined this would be fairly obvious to just about anyone, this is why I consider this article flimsy and shallow. But it seems both you and the author have completely missed it. .


Chris†Kid:
As clearly stated in the article all rumors of forcing shariah down westerners throat are just what it is _ rumors when majority muslim countries themselves dont even practice it themselves how much more them?

And as he says, they still practice a watered down version, yes? I repeat, religion has NO place in government. Watered down, unadulterated, it matters not. The thought of even considering marrying religion and government should NOT be entertained, however ostensibly benign.

The bolded is for the most part true, again, - as of now. Again, the fear is they gain enough power to force it down peoples throats.

Chris†Kid:

And yes its a good thing they support marriage of church and state. Nobody is forcing shariah down westerners throat except of course occasional rants from few fanatics. Thats all there is to it.
'two wrongs dont make a right' doesnt even apply here.

If you don't have a problem with their support of combining church and state, why do you go through the trouble of stating they aren't forcing it down anyone's throats, that it's only "occasional rants from few fanatics"? If church and state were acceptable, what would be fanatical about insisting on it? Wouldn't it be a reasonable goal in such a scenario?

Anyways, please do take your family and make your way to Saudi. Where women can't drive, dress as they wish or take a walk alone because? Well, mostly because a book of fairy tales thinks poorly of them.

Or visit the Iran you seem to be a fan of and do try making out with another man consensually.

Supposing you think it's disgusting and unnatural, you'd never do that and you condone their stance on homosexuality. Cool. You would probably believe you have the right to make out with a female should you wish to as well, yes? If so, I would then ask you who the $%^# are you? Denying people rights you yourself enjoy because of your illogical, unsubstantiated claims (from said fairy-tale book)?

Simple situations which illustrate why we do not even entertain the idea of church and state, see?

Let's see who this 'occasional, ranting fanatics' are. Observe the title below, it says 40% in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

This site has a less than favorable view of muslims, but do feel free to look up their sources and spin it as you wish. Or simply take a look at Arab Spring countries. What exactly are they doing now with their new found freedoms?

Two wrongs clearly make a right here. If xtians want to mix church and state, that does not justify muslims wanting to do the same. Mixing church and state is wrong, period. We have to deal with xtians in the first place, don't need no cave dwellers exacerbating issues.

Obviously you can disagree about mixing church and state, that's your prerogative. You can enjoy your 'good thing' by marrying the two. But from the perspective of those calling for caution when dealing with Muslim immigration and their potential proliferation, the church and state combination is patently wrong. They are therefore right to be weary of groups like muslims who insist on doing just that. Note, many muslims would probably believe that they are mandated to whenever they can (depending on how they translate the laws), ie, if they find themselves in a condition where they are able to achieve that (even peacefully gained ones, like immigration).

If they want sharia they should stay in their countries, who forced them out? I'm sure all they're problems are West's fault, yes? (please note the sarcasm)


Chris†Kid:

The point made here is quite clear, honor killings carried out by both christians, muslims even hindus have no basis in their religious texts.
Its clearly a cultural problem that needs to be addressed and put an end to. So when it comes to honor killings its not an islamic problem.

So?

You completely avoided my point. Muslims coming in bring their culture as well. Like he states, even in the west honor killings occur. Who's it done by? People from these regions, yes? They usually happen to be from islamic oriented cultures, no?

Whether it's islamic or not is up for debate. Moderate muslims would say no, and indeed they are likely right. But it's certainly an arabic (among others) thing, and these same 'moderate' muslims will conveniently pick up any arab cultural memes whenever they can in their bid to appear 'islamic'. These practices are tied to the islamic way of life so deeply they are often indistinguishable, interchangeable, synonymous. They would adopt them and pass them off as good and islamic. Islam can never be wrong.

The fear is that when people from these cultures (note: need not be arabs or muslims) come in they do not bring these heinous practices along. Just as muslims keep picking up memes like arabic naming conventions (which I'm assuming is not strictly an islamic thing, but an arab thing), the fear is that they don't do the same for practices like honor killing. For instance, if marrying young teens (or even 'ripe' preteens) is unislamic (as some very dubiously claim) that doesn't stop many, many people in Islamic countries practicing it, does it? In fact, proudly doing so, while pointing at uncle moh as the perfect role model. If he did it, why shouldn't I?

The fear is "arab slave masters do it, so why shouldn't I" is a danger, get it? Especially when respectable members of their societies, role models, engage in these acts.


Chris†Kid:

going from unbelievable thin to unbelievable fat is all in your mind. Just as we've cases of those that embraced burka we've had those that dropped it as well. Its all in your head.

Interesting, are you saying it isn't possible? That populations do not....increase? Via whatever means?


Chris†Kid:

it does have an anti gay stance as all religions (at least abrahamic ones) do. But you have to be highly tolerant to facilate sex change for transeexuals, given full rights and be home to world's biggest gay pride event.


What happened to the "two wrongs don't make a right" I mentioned? The other abrahamics support it therefore it's fine?

What's so special about Iran's record anyways? The fact they actually hang them

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/iran-blog/2013/mar/14/iran-official-homosexuality-illness

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iran

I'll give them credit for allowing the sex change operations though. At least a ray of hope



Oh boy, see time wastage..
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by wiegraf: 9:56am On May 17, 2013
Chris†Kid:

they may have their shortcomings in scientific field. It still doesnt negate the progress they've made in that area given the amount of energy and resources invested.

Read the article when you have time. It's more complicated than that.


Chris†Kid:

And somehow you think they control the actions of minority extremist among them right?
Just like saying atheists wouldnt be against stalin even though they're victims of his terrorists acts.

I say that where? My point there is that that is a silly reason to be against terrorism. So it's only when it occurs to you that it matters? If it weren't, you wouldn't care?

Chris†Kid:

dont make right. Yes. Just that condemnation for the west is not just as loud.

It is, from within even, you simply haven't noticed because it is ubiquitous so it does not come across as out of the ordinary. Simply sit down and listen to their political debates and you'll hear it loud and clear. You'll also note quite a few people trying to do something about it. For instance, this silly article could pass (in some contexts) as an attempt to criticize the west. Many liberals share these views.

And don't ignore my main points
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by Nobody: 1:23pm On May 17, 2013
Chris†Kid:


Sharap illogicboy
the article is just clearing up some steroetypes against a particular religion.
I know you'd rather wallow in your ignorance.



Your article that lies that Indonesia is home to one of the world's biggest gay pride rallies


HUGE LIE.....Indonesia is highly intolerant of gays.....even their public rallies have to be a little bit discrete to avoid conservative vigilantes.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by deols(f): 8:12pm On May 17, 2013
Logicboy03:


And this is a mod?

Ready to call people bigots for no just reason? So if someone doesnt agree to this flawed article, the person is a bigot

Comprehension problem, I see. I didn't justify bigotry and neither did I call anyone a bigot.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by deols(f): 8:14pm On May 17, 2013
Chris†Kid:


is that why you were hiding my comments in your section because you prejudged me as a bigot?
Waka pass jor you are a bigot.

Did I know you? LOL.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by deols(f): 8:16pm On May 17, 2013
But I have to say that Muslim nations allowing haram can never be justified.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by Nobody: 8:26pm On May 17, 2013
deols:

Comprehension problem, I see. I didn't justify bigotry and neither did I call anyone a bigot.


So you dont even think before typing? Kai....we need IQ tests for mods ooo cheesy


deols: Everything said on here has always been known to be so. It is good hearing someone else say them.

That the Op posted it is surprising. It is quite heart warming to seea part of the populace not being bigots.
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by wiegraf: 9:39pm On May 17, 2013
deols: But I have to say that Muslim nations allowing haram can never be justified.

Simple

I wish I had your way with words.

1 Like

Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by TarryFour: 1:27am On May 18, 2013
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by TarryFour: 1:28am On May 18, 2013
Re: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Fear Islam by TarryFour: 1:30am On May 18, 2013

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