You best see and not judge.

that applies more to you.

You know how it is with the log and the speck of dust.

Dont[b] judge [/b] those who are against raising an offering for a $20 million jet. Especially since you're not thinking of helping raise the money. And by your own admission, neither are you a member of the church.

last time I checked, there's such a thing as free speech. I hope the pastor you're so passionately worshipping, knows your name.

Back to Square one

See me thinking you had gained some knowledge.

Gamine:

Back to Square one

See me thinking you had gained some knowledge.

likewise.

mehn ten gbosas for una. . . .

we smart alecks are conversing.

LOLOL

oh my days.

i think i would post up a thread when im ready to buy my 20mill jet

lemme see how it would be taken.

buncha Judgists!!

which one is judgist?

i learnt something new today.

yeah, let us know when you buy your jet.  Or when your pastor gives you one. After all, you've been supportive enough- you should be rewarded for your non-judging ways.

lololol

hmph.

this is my own 2cents on the issue. . . . .

If we accept on a fundamental level that Nigeria is capitalist, and the coporation in question
conforms to all the requirements requested of the establishment of a coporate legal entity then
we should judge the decision to procure a jet for the 'G.O' to use in that regard.

But the case of Lord Conrad Black is instructive. The excesses of this said Black while managing Bollinger International
has resulted in not a few legal suits by shareholders.

The suit is however based on the lack of communication and the hidden manner in which this procurements were made
with company funds. Besides there is enough evidence to show that Black used these funds for things which were restricted
only for his own use.

I must also add though that legal commentators do not think this suits have any chance of success/

But then we come to the moral case against the procurement of this jet.

It is the tacit mission statement of these religious bodies to spread the word. I do not think it is in any way shape or form
antithetical to this mission statement the procurement of a jet, if we can prove that funds will be saved in the long run, because
of course money saved could also mean one more life saved.

And on thorough research by moi on prevailing inflationary pressures on airline ticket prices, compared to inflationary pressures on
the price of oil which would fuel this contraption, I will have to say your guess is as good as mine over the efficacy of this purchase.

So as far me and my brain are concerned, the yays and nays are locked in a draw.

2 cents??

more like 20 Mill Dollars!!!!

Gamine:

2 cents??

more like 20 Mill Dollars!!!!

I guess my attempt at sounding smart never paid off

Queenisha

Or is it Adeboye that made people jobless and hungry?

Yes, very much so by his mafia godfatherism style of giving "spiritual"(?) and "moral"(?) protection to the Looters-in-Power (LIPs) he associates with rather than admonish them publicly as Paul did to Peter on the issue of circumcised vs uncircumcised brethren.
These LIPs whose activity or rather inactivity is the cause of unemployment that creates mass poverty and leaves infrastructures in a dilapidated state, including health facilities that cannot perform rigorous diagnosis thus leaving room for greater attribution of sometimes inevitable diseases and deaths to witches and wizards and wild claims of unverifiable miracles.
Talk about a symbiotic relationship, rub-my-back-I-rub-yours: you politicians can make the people very poor and I will continue to give them false hope of Nigeria will be great, moving to the next level, miracles galore etc etc to keep them hypnotised and focused away from your thieving ways as I dey thief them dey go also with my unbiblical tithe guilt trap.

Just in case you have not read this.
-----------------------------------------------

The Trial of Pastor Enoch

As a sequel to my previous posts about the the mis-information being preached in our churches about tithesI hereby present a court scenario in which the good pastor stands before the Great Judge of all the earth, the Lord Jesus Christ, on this subject. I came across this post when i checked on a link supplied by one of the contributors to a previous thread. Enjoy the conversation:

Jesus: Enoch, you have been charged with multiple counts of extortion. Your crime spree covers 20 years and thousands of victims. You have defrauded people out of their money with fear and manipulation, telling them they had to tithe 10% of their income to your church and that God would bless them if they did. You also told them that if they didn’t tithe they would go to hell. How do you plead?

Pastor Enoch: I plead not guilty, sir. I have done nothing wrong. I have only preached what the Bible says. In the Bible Abraham tithed to Melchizedek and God blessed him for his faithful giving. The Bible even says he was rich in silver and gold.

Jesus: Is it not true, Enoch, that in Genesis chapter 13 verse 2 the Bible says Abraham was rich with livestock, silver and gold?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, you are exactly right, that’s what I just told you.

Jesus: Ok, we read about Abraham being a rich man in chapter 13. But it is not until Genesis chapter 14 that we read about Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek. So Abraham was already a rich man before he tithed to Melchizedek, wasn’t he?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, I suppose you are right.

Jesus: So his riches were not the result of his tithe to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: No.

Jesus: Enoch, you also say God blessed him for his faithful giving. How many times is it recorded that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: Well, just once.

Jesus: So the Bible never said that he gave week after week?

Pastor Enoch: No it does not.

Jesus: Where did Abraham get the things that he gave to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: Well, the Bible says it was from the plunders of war?

Jesus: So you are telling me that he gave from the plunders of war?

Pastor Enoch: Yes that’s what the Bible says.

Jesus: So he basically took things that were not really his in the first place and gave them as the tithe?

Pastor Enoch: That is what the scripture seems to indicate.

Jesus: Is it recorded that he ever took anything from his own possessions and tithed them to Melchizedek or anyone else?

Pastor Enoch: I guess not

Jesus: You guess not! You pastor one of the largest denominations and you are only guessing? Is it or is it not written that he ever gave any of his own possessions as a tithe to anyone?

Pastor Enoch: No; it is not written anywhere that I have seen.

Jesus: Is it recorded as to what exactly Abraham did give Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: I believe it says plunder?

Jesus: So plunder could be any number of things?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, I suppose

Judge: It could have been food, cattle, sheep, the people’s possessions or any number of things. It does not say it was all money correct?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; sir. You are correct; it does not say just money.

Jesus: As a matter of fact, money is never mentioned in that account at all; is that correct, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, sir; money is never mentioned; just goods and food and people.

Jesus: So there is no way you can say with any certainty that Abraham in fact gave Melchizedek any money at all?

Pastor Enoch: That is right.

Jesus: I only have one last question for you, Enoch. Did God command Abraham to give this plunder as tithe to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: No; it appears that he did this voluntarily.

Jesus: So are you trying to tell me that because of this voluntary, one time gift by Abraham, that may not have even consisted of money, all Christians everywhere are obligated to bring 10% of their weekly paycheck to a local church?

Jesus: Considering all the evidence, I would say you are beyond any shadow of a doubt guilty of deliberately trying to make the scriptures says things they have not said for financial gain.

Pastor Enoch: Sir, I can see how foolish I was to try and use the story of Melchizedeck to try and get the people to tithe money. But there are many other verses that will support my belief on tithing. Jacob said he would give God 10% of everything. I think we should follow his example.

Jesus: Let’s see what Jacob said. Please read the verse you are talking about for me, Enoch.

Pastor Enoch: In Genesis chapter 28, starting at verse 20 it says, ‘Jacob vowed a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and clothing to put on, so that I come again to my father’s house in peace, and Yahweh will be my God, then this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, will be God’s house. Of all that you will give me I will surely give the tenth to you.”‘

Jesus: You said people should follow Jacobs’s example, is that right, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; that is right. He vowed to give a tenth and we should too.

Jesus: Let me point out one thing for you, Enoch. Jacob said he would Give God a tenth, ONLY if He blessed him first. So as you said previously, we should follow Jacob’s example and tell God that we will only give him a tenth if he blesses us first. Is that right?

Pastor Enoch: That is not what I meant.

Jesus: What did you mean then?

Pastor Enoch: That we should give God a tenth also.

Jesus: There you go again, trying to make the scripture say what you want it to say for your benefit. I would also like you to tell me the scriptures that say that Jacob kept his vow with God. I would also like to know where he gave the tenth to because there was no temple or levites to give it to at that time.

Pastor Enoch: I can not think of any scriptures that say where or if he ever tithed after his vow.

Jesus: It is obvious that Jacob made a voluntary and conditional vow to God. This in no way can be used as a reason to demand others to bring their income to you or any other place.

Pastor Enoch: I do have a few more scriptures that I believe will show that we are supposed to tithe.

Jesus: So far, all you have done is taken scripture and misapplied it to your beliefs and for your gain. But in order to be fair to you I will allow you to present more evidence.

Pastor Enoch: In the book of Malachi chapter 3 starting at verse 8 it says, “Will a man rob God? yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, In what have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now with this, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” So you see sir, we are commanded to bring the tithes into the storehouse or God will curse us.

Jesus: Answer me this, Enoch, were you aware that I never required anyone to tithe money?

Pastor Enoch: No I didn’t know that.

Jesus: The tithe spoken of here was always edible products never money.

Pastor Enoch: Sir, that is because they didn’t have money at the time so God had them tithe food instead.

Jesus: Not true, money is first mentioned in Genesis - and Malachi was written hundreds of years later. God had them bring food in so that the levites, the fatherless and widows may eat and be satisfied. The tithe was used mainly to take care of people. Also notice it says in the verse you quoted, that there may be food in my house. How do you completely overlook the word food in those verses?

Pastor Enoch: I don’t know

Jesus: I also want you to know that these verses speak to people under the Old Testament law. As you may or may not know, I fulfilled the law while I was on earth. The Law is no longer binding. Tithing was part of that law that has been abolished.

Jesus: And once again, you have tried to completely take a scripture out of context and apply it to others for your benefit. Can you give me a single scripture where God changed the tithe from food to money?

Pastor Enoch: I do not know of any.

Jesus: So if God never changed it from food to money who did?

Pastor Enoch: Man must have.

Jesus: So far all you have done, Enoch, is take Old Testament scriptures out of context and try to apply it to believers under the New Covenant. Is this all the proof you have?

Pastor Enoch: I do have a New Testament scripture that will show that You told us to tithe.

Jesus: Ok let me hear it.

Pastor Enoch: You said in Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.” Surely, You were saying there that we should be tithing.

Jesus: Let me ask you a question, who was I talking to?

Pastor Enoch: The scripture says the scribes and Pharisees.

Jesus: Are you and your members scribes or Pharisees?

Pastor Enoch: No sir; God forbid!.

Jesus: I also said in that passage, “You have left undone the weightier matters of the law“. Are we under the law, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: No.

Jesus: Why not?

Pastor Enoch: Because You fulfilled it, and it passed away.

Jesus: When did I fulfill the law?

Pastor Enoch: When You were crucified.

Jesus: So the law was still in effect until My death?

Pastor Enoch: That is correct sir.

Jesus: I think you know where I am going with this; don’t you?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; sir. Since You had not yet been crucified and the law was still binding, the Pharisees were required to tithe because it was part of the law. Once the law ended, tithing ended also.

Jesus: I want you to take a look at that verse again. Also tell me, what were they tithing?

Pastor Enoch: The scripture says it was mint, dill and cumin.

Jesus: Was money mentioned there?

Pastor Enoch: No sir; it was not.

Jesus: Once again it was edible products that they were tithing, not money. Do you have anything else you would like to say?

Pastor Enoch: If people only tithed edible products like the scripture says, then how would the church survive? We had to build that million-seater cathedral to accomodate the people who come for Holy Ghost Festival yearly, the salaries of other pastors have to be paid. So many other things. We depend on the money from the people.

Jesus: The need does not justify the means. In other words, just because you have all these debts does not give you the right to twist and manipulate scripture and cause people to give under fear of being cursed by God to meet your needs. Not to mention that all those items you listed are problems you created for yourelves. They are not My agenda.

Jesus: Now to the more greivous consequences of your enforcing the tithe on believer. What did Paul write in Galatians 5:4 about attempting to follow the Law?

Pastor Enoch: That if they obeyed any part of the old Jewish law, including the law of circumcision, in order to be right (justified) with God, they have fallen from grace, or lost their salvation.

Jesus: Do you admit that like circumcision, tithing was part of the law?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, sir.

Jesus: Now if obeying the law of circumcision would cause gentile Christians of Paul’s day to “fall from grace”, one would have to conclude that obeying another old law; “The law of tithing” would have the same results on them today; that is to say, it will cause them to fall away from the grace of God.

Pastor Adeboye: [Swallows hard] I suppose so.

Jesus: In other words, you are admitting that your teaching the tithe is actually sending people down the road to hell?

Pastor Enoch: That was not what I intended, sir.

Jesus: Nevertheless, that is the result of your actions - your ministry. How many of those one billion members (not counting the non-members who heard you and believed you) do you suppose have been turned aside unknowingly this way?

Pastor Enoch: [Swallows hard] I have no idea, sir.

Pastor Enoch: I never realized all these things, I have always been taught that we had to tithe money to the local church and that is what I have always taught. Yes I am guilty. I will not teach this error anymore. Infact, I will go and take my words back. As many people as possible must hear this.

THE END

Source: : http://www.yomisays.com/?p=927

U STARTED THIS POST AGAIN ABI, I GUESS THIS POST HIS UR HIT POST ,

I will call seun and Mukina to close this one better don't get on my nerves

Let's even assume that the jet is genuinely needed (even though i can't see how) i am aware you can get a very decent toks private Jet for as little as $2million, i wonder why they have to be going for a $20 million one.

Did u see the jet?

i posted the link, its the best money can buy.

why should u go the mediocre route when the best can be gotten.

@gamine i will order for the close of this thread now , ok

this religion section is for edification not condeminations.ok

@Kunle Oshob

Some Private Jets costs more than $40m, While some costs as low as $50,000, Yet they are all private Jets. If Papa Adeboye have to go for evangelism worldwide say U.S.A, CHINA, BRAZil etc, He will need a Jet that cost that much. The ones you are talking about have short Range I.e cant travel far, they are usually Btw 1000 - 2500KM  which cannot Go farther Beyond Liberia/Niger So you seee,you cannot compare it to a Jet that can go to U.S non-stop.

check this links www.gulfstream.com
                          Bombadier Challenger 605, 604 (Search)
                        www.citationX.cessna.com
                         www.boeing.com -- Business Jets
                         www.eclipseaviation.com

femo2000:

@Kunle Oshob

Some Private Jets costs more than $40m, While some costs as low as $50,000, Yet they are all private Jets. If Papa Adeboye have to go for evangelism worldwide say USA, CHINA, BRAZil etc, He will need a Jet that cost that much. The ones you are talking about have short Range I.e can't travel far, they are usually Btw 1000 - 2500KM which cannot Go farther Beyond Liberia/Niger So you seee,you cannot compare it to a Jet that can go to US non-stop.

check this links www.gulfstream.com
Bombadier Challenger 605, 604 (Search)
www.citationX.cessna.com
www.boeing.com -- Business Jets
www.eclipseaviation.com

Bros if you read my post well, you would observe i said "toks jet" and i am quite certain that you can get a toks Gulfstream in very good condition that can go intercontinental for $2million. I also know that a boeing buiness Jet could cost up to $100 million depending on the configuration, but that is not the issue here. It is about the morality of using church funds which is meant to take care of the needy to fund such a project. I know a lot of people assume church collections is meant to be use to run the church but they are wrong. Church collections by the early christian was mainly used to help the needy, somewhere along the line the church leadership highjacked these funds.

@gamine
what is mediocre about a $2million jet?

jayon:

@gamine i will order for the close of this thread now , ok

this religion section is for edification not condeminations.ok

Shame on you.

You condemn M'uslims for getting upset when someone insults Mohammed or Allah.I remember there was a great uproar when the admin decided Islam bashing was not allowed and people comlpained about loss of freedom of speech. Now your religion and leader( Not Jesus- an imam equivalent) is under scrutiny and you do the same thing you speak against.

Jayon, ma worry ke

wetin dey do u, what has angry smiley gat to do with this

@Kunle, it is mediocre for the purpose at hand.
The citation X cessna is great for it.

like someone said before there are jets that cost more.

jayon, you don miss road, for real.

The only thread you're getting heated up about in the religion section is one where your favorite pastor/reverend is being scrutinized.

The religion section is full of topics dealing with all kinds of issues which I notice you've never posted in , since you probably don't have the faintest inkling of what they're about. The only thing you seem to understand in religion, is, according to you, a pastor must not be queried. The minister is above the law.

E be like say you want make your road jam- you need to get a grip on yourself.

I don't see you on this thread, for example:

Re: Check These 'words Of A Hindu' About Christianity

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-147470.0.html

or this one:

Re: Does Religion Impede Development?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-145770.0.html

and many more. I guess your own understanding of religion is when the pastor says jump, ask how high.

Go ahead and call for the thread to be closed. This is what happens when people humor childish mentality. The first one shouldnt even have been closed in the first place, and because it was, you're feeling so happy your wish is someone's command.

better wake up before your "pastor" wakes you up.

Gamine:


@Kunle, it is mediocre for the purpose at hand.

On the contrary for the purpose at hand it is not only excessive, it is wasteful. Millions of people have been spreading the gospel for hundreds of years and winning souls for christ succesfully with out the use of a Private jet or other unneccesary luxuries. And i can assure you that there are thousands of ways to utilising $20 million dollars to spread the gospel better than to using it to but a jet for the use of just one man and you would end up winning more sould for christ.

hen hen, For just one man? no oh, not just one man.

i worked in an airline for a while

and i know how much these pastors spend in travelling assuming they really have to travel

i do believe the jet will be cost-effective in the long run

@tpia why are u insulting me all the way, can't we talk about somethingelse, am not an RCCG Church member, don't even go for their conference attend fountain of life church, but how would u feel if u are been criticized in a site ,or by some group of people on something they are not really sure of about you, think tpia

i wonder why the sympathy for that [b]GO[/b]at called Adeboye. is nairaland now secular? the polls has also been manipulated in the [b]GO[/b]at"s favour. shio

Calling Someone a goat
apparently makes you feel better about yourself.

To make a point must you subject yourself to being ridiculous

jayon:

@tpia why are u insulting me all the way, can't we talk about somethingelse, am not an RCCG Church member, don't even go for their conference attend fountain of life church, but how would u feel if u are been criticized in a site ,or by some group of people on something they are not really sure of about you, think tpia

for goodness sake, why are you so sensitive?

Where did I insult you. Do you think your attitude is a mature one, if you so easily take panadol for your pastor's headache?

I repeat, you are very childish in your approach to issues.  Maybe thats what you're calling an insult. If I am actually insulting you, I wont be ambigous about it.

When someone is a public figure, in case you dont know, they are scrutinized by the public. Thats the price of fame, be it religious, govt or movie star fame. The fact that you dont see anything wrong in that jet doesnt mean everyone has to agree with you.


Now you're saying you also dont attend RCCG yet you want to go to war on behalf of RCCG. So you're also not donating money yet crying wolf here.

I tire for all of una religious almajiris. Just repeating phrases they have no understanding of.

@tpia lets have a good dialogue and i know u are the band leader of all this unbeliver,atheist insulting a man of God , ok i have accepted he might be wrong in ur own perceptive ,why don't you let us shutdown this thread or say something like , HOW HEAVEN WILL BE LIKE , HOW WE CAN CHANGE OUR WORLD WITH OUR FAITH AND BELIVES, LOVE TOWARDS OUR OTHER FAITH OR BRETHREN

jayon:

@tpia lets have a good dialogue and i know u are the band leader of all this unbeliver,atheist insulting a man of God , ok i have accepted he might be wrong in your own perceptive ,why don't you let us shutdown this thread or say something like , HOW HEAVEN WILL BE LIKE , HOW WE CAN CHANGE OUR WORLD WITH OUR FAITH AND BELIVES, LOVE TOWARDS OUR OTHER FAITH OR BRETHREN

once again: why are you so bothered by the thread?

Are you related to pastor Adeboye?

or do you collect your monthy salary from a religious institution? Most likely you're benefitting from church donations as well, hence your jitterbugging here.

why not start a thread on what heaven will be like or any of those other topics you mention. Of course there are plenty of threads here discussing those exact same things, but you cant contribute there because its of utmost importance to take up your sword and defend your pastor's riches honor.