@~Lady~:

well if i believe in allah, i will certainly go to hell, one because i am black, two because i am a woman and i lead men to sin. so i guess there's no hope for me wither way huh. no thanks I will stay in love.

You should realise that Qur'an calls women believers, too. The name is muminina. Its different from the Bible who says that you are permanently a sinner and that you will also suffer through childbearing as punishment!

And in Islam, color and gender, and othr artificial barriers are not prerequisites for paradise or hellfire. Piety and god consciousness are.

and why didn't you comment on everything else that i wrote

Am busy.

Jesus is not a mortal as you view him. Thanks. Now go learn the truth and stop listening to the man that condemns women for the wrong done them.

She wants to tell me about the immortality of a man you claim from your own mouth died. I am telling you that his death is reserved for later, InshaAllah.


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Yee paripa!!  Lady abeg give us citations because these we will have to look into a bit deeper.  Are black people really condemned to hell in the koran?
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Oh boy, leave ~Lady~ alone. She is just playing around. I wished she is serious about all the promises. By now she should be covered from head to toes. And she aint nun!

Honestly I was contemplating letting you and david know of a book that I am reading.
I know how you two feel about catholics bur trust me you want to read this book.

If you both want I can send you the title of the book to your e-mails and you can read it. It not only talks about what i mentioned above but addresses a lot of issues dealing with islam and it truly shows that muhamad copied from Christianity and Judaism.

And Allah says yet the Qur'an is a different tongue (Language). In another verse, He say the revelation in pure Arabic.





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The feeling that I get from quran and reading brother Olabowale's post is that the whole religion is a reaction towards christianity, like it defines itself by contrasting itself to christianity.  Hence the consistent battering on about trinity and the oneness of God.   It seems that if there was no christianity then Islam  wouldn't know what to do with itself
[/quote]

Your assumption is wrong. If I were not dialoguing with Christians here, I will not be thinking about trinity. I a only think about it because its the centerpiece of your Christian religion. Didn't paul says that if trinity and death and resurrection is blown apart, Christianity is dead?

Islam however deals with the worship of one God. Do I have to remind you of the 5 Pillars?

It is true, Islam cannot address an issue with Jesus unless it comes from the Gospel. Islam is heavily reliant on Christianity.

There is a lot of material in the Qur'an where Jesus spoke and nothing like it in the Bible. Search for it. In Surah Al Maidah, he said to his people that if they associate anything with God, God has already forbidden Paradise for such a person, who will burn in hellfire. He also petitioned God to bring food from heaven to him, so that his followers may eat, as a sign of his prophethood to them.

Allah spoke about the dialogue between Him and Jesus for mankind to see, on the day of Judgement. A thing of the future that must happen. What Jesus will say, exactly is recorded in this chapter. Then in Surah saffa, Jesus proclaimed to his people about the coming of a prophet whose name is Ahmad. Now tell me which of these you have in the Bible?

I will have to get you the source for black people. I don't have the books with me on campus.

I await the reading of the same information.

@~Lady~

YET AGAIN YOU ADD YOUR OWN BELIEF IN IT. WHAT DOES WHAT KUNLE SAID HAVE TO DO WITH TRINITY. HOW CAN A BELIEF IN TRUE RELIGION BE DIFFERENT FROM TRINITY OR DID YOU NOT READ THE QUOTE AGAIN? DID IT MENTION THAT THE TRINITY IS NOT A PART OF TRUE RELIGION.

True religion is given its limits, its boundaries. Trinity is not one of it. Read it again. You must have to study some business law; What ever there is no law against, it is legal. In this case as the definition of true religion only comprises a list of information, the definition is restrected to it. Trinity, again, is not part of it.

IF YOU TRULY WANT US TO VISIT GENUINITY IN RELIGION WE CAN LOOK AT THE FACT THAT WOMEN ARE BLAMED FOR THE SINS OF MEN, HOW GENUINE IS THAT?
OR IS IT THAT WOMEN ARE NOT PROMISED ANYTHING IN HEAVEN, BUT ARE INFACT TOLD THAT THEY WILL BE IN HELL?
OR IS IT THAT BLACKS ARE CURSED AND CONDEMNED TO HELL?
AREN'T YOU A BLACK MAN? WHY ARE YOU WORSHIPPING A GOD THAT CONDEMNS YOU ALREADY NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO OR HOW GOOD YOU ARE, YOU ARE CONDEMNED BY THE COLOUR OF YOUR SKIN?

All of the above, none is in islam. maybe you are reading Judaism or christianity.

yet what god prohibits on earth he permits in heaven. So doesn't that mean that in heaven you will be able to murder, lie, and the virgins promised to men (seeing that women are not mentioned to make it to heaven) will run around naked, and you don't have to wash your privates before praying or you will be permitted to yawn and all. abi.

In heaven, unlike the earth, the worship is not like salah, sawm, etc. The earth is a test. The heaven is the accounting for it; where you get ypur rewards.

What kind of god permits sin in heaven but not on earth?
This is allah's plan "if you don't sin in earth, you will be permitted to sin in heaven"

Sex is a sin? Well if alcohol is a sin, a lot of catholic are committing it right here on earth. I will wait till heaven, after i have been admitted to paradise to get into my own drinking.

the devil can claim to be your best friend o. don't forget he was able to deceive adam and eve.

And they were forgiven. Oh, I remember you still carry the residue of their sins. I on the other hand dont.

you're getting close to the immaculate conception, one more reason why i still say muhamad copied from the christian and jewish religion.

What about about the other parts that neither the jew nor the christian has anything to do with; eg the body of Fir'awn thrown out by the sea, after drowning. The same body later found, as predicted in the Qur'an, to serve as a sign for later generation?

What I have done is to show by this example that i do not agree with you at all, in your claim of copying Jews ad or Christians. Funny that the jews do not even mention Jesus nor any immaculate conception. While the Christians believe that God overshadowed mary, as when an entity mounts another, we in Islam say that he was only commanded to exist by a simple single word: Be! We are very different from you. Now it is clear when Allah says Jews and christians are friend of each other against you. That is very clear here. And i alsways thought you are my friend. I guess i am wrong.






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yet never in the Bible did it mention Jesus being under control of the devil. He didn't go to the wildreness on the prompting of the devil, he went there to fast. at the end of his fasting the devil attempted to tempt him and Jesus triumphed as the true Son of God that he is.
[/quote]

If I show you where Jesus is driven into the wilderness by the devil, what will you give me? Rather will you become muslim, right away? I wanna see you all covered up!

While John preached in the wilderness, Jesus is driven into the wilderness. Of course you are not disputing the 3 temptations from that accursed Devil. Or are you, too?

if Jesus was a mere man, this shouldn't be an exception for him. yet again proving his divinity.

A man who has an orchard, without a single mango tree and the man who have a mango tree that does not fruit can say to a friend, lets go to my orchard and pluck some mangoes. Can he? Jesus not having a jinn/genie and Muhammad having a powerless genie/jinn, both do not have any genie/jinn trying to influence them. They are both unlike you and me with active minds, where we struggle to remain right with God, avoiding as much evil as we can. Isn't ironic that even the mother of jesus did not have any genie/jinn. Was she devine, too? I am asking the wrong wman. She is a catholic. She prays to her!







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yet he still sinned and was still under the control of the devil when he inserted that the three daughters of allah can be worshipped too and used as intercessors.
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The same way your Bible spoke about the devil tempting Jesus, 3 times! Then he drove him into the wilderness. Didn't the Bible also recorded that jesus said, get back from me, satan? About worshipping your so called daughters above and acting as intercessors, please let us know where we can find them in the Qur'an or in the hadith. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the allegation.







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For a wise mind this story would show just how out of line of the prophets that muhamad is. never did any of the prophets try to commit a sin because they didn't receive a revelation when they wanted to, they submitted to the will of God and never questioned why they didn't receive revelation at a time they wanted to.
[/quote]

Dont copy my style. Bt then thats okay. You may copy me into Islam. I will be very grateful to God almighty Allah when that happens. When the christians/Jews claim that King David who was given the Psalm committed adultery and murder of the innocent husband, one should not count either as a sin? When you say that Solomon worshpped the idol of the land he conquered, even with his unmatched wisdom, that too, is not a sin? I remember one young woman of old on nairaland was saying that Moses was a sinner and God was trying to kill him! What about Aaron for making the golden calf? lol.






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never once did any of the prophets of old try to comprise the will of God. God's will does not conform to man's will. Basically here allah bowed down to the quraysh.
[/quote]

Muhammad did not bow. He exercise patience. God is always with the patient. I do not want to remind you of the one you call king, who could not speak up and claim his title or kingdom, in the presence of Herod! Baby, stop making me remind you things about christianity. How about the person who should be happy to be the willing lamb, but then yelled out, my God, my God, why had thou forgavened me? Is tht compromising to the Will of God? I think not!






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and yet he already did.
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If he did, will they be forcing me? Common, woman. lol.





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Never did satan succeed over any of the prophets of old. never did satan deceive a prophet of old to insert something against God in a book that is supposed to contain God's words. Infact to even suggest that is to suggest that satan can have power over God's word.
[/quote]

If a statement that, a verse that was to qualify as you said, then what do you make of the numerous statements, verse coming from paul, which contradicted what your son god said? How about the seven headed or six headed monster/beast of revelations, and other parts of the Bible spewing with devilsh inuendos?

@PastorAIO:

So what should the religion be called? Jehovahism? Or Yahwehity? Christians are so called because they are followers of Christ.

Olojooro! My question was not about name and title. It was simple about who is being worshipped? Don't the Christian worship Jesus, since he is god? What agod, unless he is worshipped? If he is not worshipped then he is no god! Now approach the question, again. This time correctly with sincerity.

What is Christ? Christ is greek for messiah which in hebrew means the anointed one, or the chosen one. In the same bible that word messiah is used for a number of other characters. King Saul was a christ, and so was king David. They were all anointed and therefore messiahs. Even a rock was anointed in the bible and it is called Bethel which means the house of God.

No one asked about definition. But if you produce one, and you refused to answer my question about Jesus being worshipped by Pastor AIO, davidylan, ~Lady~, etc, it shows deception from you.

Now I have stated before that the human life is an appropriated thing. We have been chosen to live the lives that we are to live. To adhere to and follow such appropriation is to be a christian. And such is the only true worship that is acceptable to God.

Much story, but no answer to my question. Do you worship god Jesus or not? If the answer is no, then he is no god by your own admission that he is not worth worshipping! If the answer is yes, then you worship him and father god as well. Thats 2 gods, hence you are a multiple gods worshipper!





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Let me shock you further and tell you that I too am a god, as is every christian. You too are potentially a god.
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I say that you sir, are a liar! I am not god. No muslim is a god. If you are a god, maybe in the same calibre as what you made Jesus to be? Why isn't any Christian worshipping you? Pastor, Oje ti poju.

For we all share in divine nature and divinity is a part of us. There are many divinities, ie beings partaking of divine nature. That is not to claim equality with God but rather to say that we share in common certain aspects of God's essence.

Pastor, wa bo sihin, wa bo soun, in the same way Fela said to ba rojo sihin, to rojo soun, to roju tu e, oro di un. When you know that you will be trapped for saying that you are devine, you began to back pedal out of a terrible statement like that!

What kind of devine being are you? The one who uses the bathroom, gets tired, eats because of a hunger, the one who gets sick, etc? You sound just like the fake divinity that you ascribe to Jesus! I love Prophet Jesus son of Mary!

How did the sticks of the magicians of Egypt became and looked like snake to all, including Moses? Now that should be sufficient as an answer for you. I will leave the miracles of Jesus alone, until I need to use any of it as an ace card.

so the egyptians worshipped the sticks?

And how do you stop an alcoholic or sustance abuser to stop, except you make them go through 12 steps program. It is a gradual process. No one stops cold turkey. I will also leave it alone so that you can go out and make a research for yourself.

So it is alright for allah to lay down a law and then change his mind because his people cannot handle it. Hmm sounds like allah is going according to the will of man. so much for the almighty eh.

First God the Almighty Allah says in many verses and Chapter 112 speaks that His name is Allah. Then He says that He begets none. And then He says He was not begottened. How you therefore got your begotten son beats every rational mind.

Finally, the Al Qur'an is complete and the chapter and opportunity of any Messenger or even a prophet is closed with Muhammad. All your suppositions are just that. Allah has spoken.

Well allah says that he can abrogate whatever he wants because he's allah and he shouldn't be questioned so it won't be a lie to say that he can change his mind and speak again and he can send another prophet if he wants and he can change his name from allah to chitty chitty bang bang. he can cange his mind and say that he is begotten.
I mean seriously allah can abrogate everything in the quran as he wishes, and it is not up to you to question.
so you just told a big fat lie saying that allah won't send another prophet, and that he won't say that he is begotten, because he can do whatever he wants and he can change his mind on what's written in the quran. so much for a reliable god. How can a god be so untrustworthy?

All this shows is that If allah himself is not immutable or unchangeable, or even loyal to the truth, then he meant very little or nothing of what he says about himself or his prophets and books, for this information is subject to revision or outright nullification.

your god does not adhere to the truth, he is a liar.

So how do you take up Jesus then, when he even said this Allah who you think is mangod is his Lord God? Read Mark 12 Verse 29, again. Its from the mouth of Jesus, directly. Thats what your Bible says about it. Unless the Bible is skiddish about this verse, too.

You know what I'm going to go ahead and post what Mark 12 says so that everyone will see that you are either a liar or illiterate in the english language.
28 one of the scribes, when he came forward and heard them disputing and saw how well he had answered them, asked him, "Which is the first of all the commandments?"
29 Jesus replied, "The first is this: 'Hear, O Isreal! The Lord our God is God alone!

So where in there does it say that Jesus was calling someone else God? He was repeating what was in the law as it is written in the law, he did not change it to first person, but left it in the third person, we do know that people do speak in the third person, so if one speaks in the third person, how then are they different from themselves.

But it's not only that, I have already told you that Christ is the Word of God as existed with him from the beginning. It is through this Word that the world was created. Now if you will please explain to me how it is that God existed without his word, oh yeah don't forget the Spirit too.

In all that you said you will appreciate that you did not give any example to buttress your point. In my abrogation, I gave the example of intosticants; alcohol to illustrate how it was allowed at the beginning. Then as their faith increases, it was frowned upon. Then finally as their faith matured and unshakeable, it was forbidden. Think about it. Then present your own example. Am waiting.

First of all I will address your abrogation.
If allah allowed the consumption of alcohol in the beginning and then as their faith increased he prohibited it, does it mean that muslim beginners can consume alcohol and then as their faith increases they can't? If so, won't that mean that they are going against what the quran says?
Or was this only applicable to those living in those days. And if so, why is it still in the quran as law, and which ones are to be used today, wouldn't that mean that there are revelations for each time of people and that muslims will convert i batches so that the law for that particular batch would be revealed and then the law for the next batch would be revealed in their own time.
Do you see how ridiculous your god is?

But since you want to prove that abrogations are ok, then why does it say this in the quran: sura 48:23 "such was the ways of allah in days gone by: and you shall find no change in the ways of allah"

so if allah does not change how come he changes as he wishes. if allah did permit alcohol why did he change and decide to prohibit it when he already shows that he doesn't change.

or is it sura 6:115 "perfected are the words of your lord in truth and justice. none can change his words"
or is it sura 17:77 "such were our ways with the apostles whom we sent before you. you shall find no change in our way"
and a hadith clearly states that allah said "my word does not change"

if allah is truth then his words won't change. but clearly it does.

I am also highly puzzled that if allah is all knowing why does he need to change a word, if he is so perfect why did he need to reveal better or similar ayahs. and wouldn't that limit allah to time and space or better place. if allah was for all people at all time, why the need for change at times.

and um if allah finds somethng better and can change his law to a better law, how then can he claim that muhamad is his last prophet and that his revelations are done.

what also amazes me is how allah would allow something that is from satan: sura 5:93 "O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, - of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."

and if it is truly from the devil how is it that it can have some benefit?
sura 2:219 "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider"
Why would the devil benefit man?

One would have to wonder how satan was able to drive your own god into the wilderness and then put him under temptations 3 times, afterwards? That figures. lol. Hey baby, are you alright?

lol, am just fine, just blessed and very loved by God. Now I have to wonder who's been lying to you telling you that the devil drove Jesus to the wilderness, maybe I should give you the real deal of what the Bible says.
Luke 4
1. Filled with the holy Spirit, Jesus was returned from the Jordan was led by the Spirit into the desert.

So as you see the devil didn't drive him to the desert at least not in the Bible anyway, and I know that's where you got the story from, so if the Bible didn't say it, then you must be a liar.

Oh yeah about the temptation, se you missed the part about him dismissing the devil eh. you must have missed that part.

Temporary over a prophet's tongue. And finally he was victorious. The first was in Makka. The victory was demostrated in Madina era. Remember the humiliation that satan suffered because he was making effort to distract the prophet in the salah. Thats victory, babe.

Yeah the devil never had an influence over the prophets of old or Jesus. Jesus never spoke anything from the devil. It should never have been temporary. Hearing Jesus voice the demons tremble let alone to even try to speak through him.

You should realise that Qur'an calls women believers, too. The name is muminina. Its different from the Bible who says that you are permanently a sinner and that you will also suffer through childbearing as punishment!

yeah see this is what the prophet said about my womanhood: "Once allah's apostle went out to the musalla to offer the prayer of 'id-al-adha or al-fitr prayer. the he passed by the women and said, 'o women! give alms, as i have seen that the majority of the dwellers of hellfire were you women, you curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. i have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. a cautious sensible man could be led astry by some of you.

i cannot stand a religion that thinks i am less intelligent than a man.

Well about the sinner issue, um hello we are all sinners, either you are desperate or are really hypocritical. about childbearing hey i guess that's the punishment for sinning eh.

i'd rather get punished for my own sins and sinful nature than for a man's.

And in Islam, color and gender, and othr artificial barriers are not prerequisites for paradise or hellfire. Piety and god consciousness are.

You're either a liar or blind to the truth of your own religion. Here's what the prophet had to say about black people.

"Muhammad said 'when allah createdadam, he hit adam on the right shoulder and the white race sprang out, while the black race came from the left shoulder. allah said to those of the right hand to paradise you are and to the left to hell you go" mishkat al-messabih vol. 1, no. 119
muhammad got it from the quran in sura 3:106 which says "on the day when some faces will be white, and some faces will be black will be said: 'did ye reject the faith after accepting it? taste then the penalty for rejecting faith.'"

well as for the women issue well let's see some more: "Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise" sra 2:28

not to talk of the fact that men are alloed to beat their wives. yeah lightly, but women are not children to be spanked.

i also can't live with the fact that my husband can pump his penis into another woman's vagina when he wants to and the come to me. absolutely dreadful. infact he will loose his penis.

that's another thing, one minute women are good, the next they are the reasons men sin and they suffer for the sins of men.

She wants to tell me about the immortality of a man you claim from your own mouth died. I am telling you that his death is reserved for later, InshaAllah.

and i am telling you that he resurrected from his own power.

Oh boy, leave ~Lady~ alone. She is just playing around. I wished she is serious about all the promises. By now she should be covered from head to toes. And she aint nun

i mentioned it above. u should be ashamed of yourself, following a religion that says you will go to hell.

And Allah says yet the Qur'an is a different tongue (Language). In another verse, He say the revelation in pure Arabic

clarify your english please and how it relates to what you're commenting on.

There is a lot of material in the Qur'an where Jesus spoke and nothing like it in the Bible. Search for it. In Surah Al Maidah, he said to his people that if they associate anything with God, God has already forbidden Paradise for such a person, who will burn in hellfire. He also petitioned God to bring food from heaven to him, so that his followers may eat, as a sign of his prophethood to them.

actually the baby Jesus did mention that he would die and rise again, infact let's address that. why would Jesus say that he would die if he were not going to die, and then rise again.
here's another contradiction in islam: sura 3:55 "Jesus i will cause you to die and exalt you to my presence, and clear ou of those who disbelieve and make those who follow ou above those who disbelieve till the day of judgment"

and then according to the hadith "he will fight the people for the cause of islam. he will break the cross, kill the swine, and abolish jizyah. allah will perish all religions excep islam. he will destroy the antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die."

so will he die twice?

Allah spoke about the dialogue between Him and Jesus for mankind to see, on the day of Judgement. A thing of the future that must happen. What Jesus will say, exactly is recorded in this chapter. Then in Surah saffa, Jesus proclaimed to his people about the coming of a prophet whose name is Ahmad. Now tell me which of these you have in the Bible?

God doesn't lie so no need for lies in it.

True religion is given its limits, its boundaries. Trinity is not one of it. Read it again. You must have to study some business law; What ever there is no law against, it is legal. In this case as the definition of true religion only comprises a list of information, the definition is restrected to it. Trinity, again, is not part of it.

you know what you wrote here would actually make some sense if you were actually talking about the topic. you still haven't explained how you figured the trinity in what kunle said.

All of the above, none is in islam. maybe you are reading Judaism or christianity.

then you know nothing of your own religion.

In heaven, unlike the earth, the worship is not like salah, sawm, etc. The earth is a test. The heaven is the accounting for it; where you get ypur rewards.

how can God permit you to sin in heaven? If God doesn't like something he won't prohibit it and then turn around and say that he likes it.
So the question still remains, will you be allowed to murder in heaven, lie in heaven, fornicate in heaven, or what?

Sex is a sin? Well if alcohol is a sin, a lot of catholic are committing it right here on earth. I will wait till heaven, after i have been admitted to paradise to get into my own drinking

I am only commenting on the sins in islam, don't bring it to Christianity. No one says alcohol in Christianity is a sin.

And they were forgiven. Oh, I remember you still carry the residue of their sins. I on the other hand don't.

oh I am soo glad you brought this up.

1. If God forgave adam and eve why did he drive them out of the garden.?
why does the same story in the hadith have adam bearing responsibility of humanity's exile from paradise. "allah's apostle said 'adam and moses met, and moses said to adam "you are the one who made people miserable and turned them out of paradise.'"

why would you forgive and still punish, i guess that leaves you with little hope that even after you sin and you're forgiven, you will still go to hell. so what's the point?

2. adam and eve were nked after they sinned. they realised their unclothedness and covered it. but if allah had forgiven adam, why did he still feel guilty?

once forgiven adam and eve should have been able to walk in the complet innocence they had before the fall. but the quran shows that mankind was not restored to innocence after the fall of adam and eve, once again leading us to believe that the muhammad copied from the christians.

3. muhammad taught that "every human is a sinner by nature, and the best among the sinners are those who repent." if every human being is a sinner by nature, did allah create adam's offspring as sinners or was there some kind of fall?

some verses of the quran seem to denigrae llh himself by stating tht man's imperfection comes from how he was created: "indeed, man was created impatient" sura 70:19. either allah did hasty work in creating man or he instilled a native defect.

why would allah create imperfection? i thought he only created good and not bad, unless allah is bad too or evil or imperfect.

4 why was muhammd a sinner?

i guess the apex and seal of the prophets was a sinner for according to islamic teaching only Mary and Jesus was were exempt from the touch of satan at birth. But why would allah allow satan to touch muhammad and all other human beings? this notion only makes sense in light of the Christian understanding of thefall, muhammad alo said, "satan circulates in the body of adam's offspring as his blood circulates in it. the fact that muslims beliee that Mary and Jeus were born sinless is the most telling indication of all that the quran's teachings about adam and eve, and about sin in general, are garbled representations of Christian teaching.

What about about the other parts that neither the jew nor the christian has anything to do with; eg the body of Fir'awn thrown out by the sea, after drowning. The same body later found, as predicted in the Qur'an, to serve as a sign for later generation?

so which pharoah is it? there were plenty of them you know. provide dna too to let us know that the same one that drowned was found

or maybe we should talk about the other saying in the quran that pharoah repented and worshipped allah: "we took the children of isreal across the sea: pharoah and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. at length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: 'i believe that there is no god except him whom the children of isreal believe in: i am of those who submit to allah in islam.' it was said of him: 'ah now! but a while before, wast thou in rebellion! and thou didst mischief and violence!
this day shall we save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of our signs!" sura 89-92

now i can see where the whole preservation of the body comes from, so it leads me to ask again, does allah forgive and if he does then is his reward a punishment?
if indeed the pharaoh repented then why was he punished for repenting? to be a sign to others? um if so then he wasn't forgiven.
so the question still remains, will you be punished when you're forgiven? is that your reward?

but let me finish here's the other part that contradicts this part.

"moses said, 'thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and i consider thee indeed, o pharaoh to be doomed to destruction! so he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but we did drown him and all who were with him." sura 17:102-103

so why the punishment for conversion?

What I have done is to show by this example that i do not agree with you at all, in your claim of copying Jews ad or Christians. Funny that the jews do not even mention Jesus nor any immaculate conception. While the Christians believe that God overshadowed mary, as when an entity mounts another, we in Islam say that he was only commanded to exist by a simple single word: Be! We are very different from you. Now it is clear when Allah says Jews and christians are friend of each other against you. That is very clear here.

you have only shown how islam is copied from christianity.
um hello where have you been? Christians have been saying it all along that the jews don't believe in Christ as the messiah, os what are you trying to prove that we are telling the truth? are you now on our side?
Christianity has never hidden anything even its flaws. we've always acknoeledged the truth even if we are at fault. we have no need to hide anything.
You yourself don't even make sense, how can you be trying to show how different Christians and Jews are and how they disagree and then move to show them to be alike and friends of each other.
In case you haven't realised Jews and Christians never really got along. especially in the time of muhammad. christians were still being persecuted by jews.
seriosuly are you thinking about what you write?

And i alsways thought you are my friend. I guess i am wrong.

is this supposed to make me feel guilty? because it doesn't. i have plenty of friends and won't lack. don't for one second mistake me to be one of your muslim sisters who are less intelligent than the men and the reason why they sin.
it may work in islam to make women feel inferior and indeed they do and blame themselves for everything that men do, but i am not that. learn it right now, if ever you wish to have any dealings with me, i am not inferior to you.

If I show you where Jesus is driven into the wilderness by the devil, what will you give me? Rather will you become muslim, right away? I want to see you all covered up!

While John preached in the wilderness, Jesus is driven into the wilderness. Of course you are not disputing the 3 temptations from that accursed Devil. Or are you, too?

YES, I WANT YOU TO SHOW ME!!!!
IF YOU CAN'T WILL YOU BECOME A CHRISTIAN? Sorry Christianity comes from the heart and is not by force or by bargain.

Nope I am not disputing it, infact I stand strongly behind it to show that never once did satan have control over Jesus. Never did satan put words into Jesus' mouth as he did with muhammad. satan was subjective to Jesus and his word.

Jesus not having a jinn/genie and Muhammad having a powerless genie/jinn, both do not have any genie/jinn trying to influence them.

now you're lying because you clearly have been trying to prove how the devil temporarily had influence over muhammad and then the angel corrected muhammad and then muhammad didn't allow the devil influence him again, so how now is it that a powerless jinn actually had power over muhammad for a while?

Isn't ironic that even the mother of jesus did not have any genie/jinn. Was she devine, too? I am asking the wrong wman. She is a catholic. She prays to her!

r u asking me to answer a belief of islam? you do know that i am not muslim right?

About worshipping your so called daughters above and acting as intercessors, please let us know where we can find them in the Qur'an or in the hadith. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the allegation.

ok.
now we know that it is not in the quran because you already admitted that muhammad removed it after the jibril intervened does this seem familiar?

Further, you will see that the verses that you deemed Satanic, occurred when the idol worhippers were around the prophet (AS).

You will also realise that the idols were mentioned by names and referred to as flying like the crane birds. The idolators of Makka bowed at the place in the Qur'an where the Muslims bowed as commanded in the Qur'an.

Immediately after that 'satanic verses," Jibril came down to intervene. The issue was again without allowing for compromise.

or maybe this

Temporary over a prophet's tongue

When the christians/Jews claim that King David who was given the Psalm committed adultery and murder of the innocent husband, one should not count either as a sin?

WHAT? WHEN DID CHRISTIANS EVER SAY THAT IT ISN'T A SIN? PROVE IT!!!!

When you say that Solomon worshpped the idol of the land he conquered, even with his unmatched wisdom, that too, is not a sin?

OYA PROVE IT!!!!

I remember one young woman of old on nairaland was saying that Moses was a sinner and God was trying to kill him! What about Aaron for making the golden calf? lol

ONCE AGAIN PROVE IT!!!!!!!!
I thought allah didn't approve of lying. Why are you lying?

NOTICE THAT YOU DIDN'T ADDRESS THE ISSUE BUT CHANGED THE SUBJECT INTO LIES. I JUST LOST ALL RESPECT FOR YOU. THAT YOU EVEN WENT SO FAR AS TO LIE!!!! OLABOWALE I HAVE LOST ALL RESPECT FOR YOU!!!!!!

Muhammad did not bow.

Yeah i didn't say muhammad i said god, unless muhammad is your god, which i am beginning to believe because he came up with a human book.

He exercise patience. God is always with the patient.

except that wasn't patience but compromise. God doesn't compromise. He is not subject to man. he compromised and you yourself informed me that he compromised.

I do not want to remind you of the one you call king, who could not speak up and claim his title or kingdom, in the presence of Herod! Baby, stop making me remind you things about christianity

hahaha um please remind me.

How about the person who should be happy to be the willing lamb, but then yelled out, my God, my God, why had thou forgavened me? Is that compromising to the Will of God? I think not!

ok seriosuly are you sure you know what sacrifice is? and then are you sure you actually pay attention to what you write?

If he did, will they be forcing me? Common, woman. lol.

ofcourse they're not forcing you, you're just, well i don't want to say it, it would be rude of me.
wait, wait, wait, so because you are not being forced then it means that it must be the truth?
um hello am i being forced to believe in what i believe? are we measuring truth by the amount of force? because if we are we see clearly that isalm is false because it was spread on the sword, you do remember "choose islam or death"

If a statement that, a verse that was to qualify as you said, then what do you make of the numerous statements, verse coming from paul, which contradicted what your son god said? How about the seven headed or six headed monster/beast of revelations, and other parts of the Bible spewing with devilsh inuendos?

ok now you're going to have to be very specific. what did paul say that contradicted Jesus? and then can you clarify what you're trying to say about the revelations or apocalypse.
i mean how does that show that the apostles were being influenced by the devil? i mean what words were put in by the devil? oya start clarifying.

this is gonna be so good.

No one asked about definition. But if you produce one, and you refused to answer my question about Jesus being worshipped by Pastor AIO, davidylan, ~Lady~, etc, it shows deception from you.

why are you including me in what pastor said. note i am not saying that i am disagreeing or agreeing with him, but would like to know why you would quote me on what i didn't say. thanks.

~Lady~:


Honestly I was contemplating letting you and david know of a book that I am reading.
I know how you two feel about catholics bur trust me you want to read this book.

No Lady. You don't know how I feel about catholics. You know what I've written on this forum about catholicism. What conclusions you then formed from that I don't know.

When it comes to God's word satan should not even have any bit of influence, unless God is not all powerful in his word.

The one that is doing me here is the fact that a seasoned and veteran 'prophet' like Mohammed could not tell God from Devil. Since he was incapable of making the distinction that leaves me wondering how much more of the koran is also Satanic. Maybe it is the abrogation that is SAtanic too. Without a rule or a measure there is just no telling.

olabowale:

@PastorAIO:
Olojooro! My question was not about name and title. It was simple about who is being worshipped? Don't the Christian worship Jesus, since he is god? What agod, unless he is worshipped? If he is not worshipped then he is no god! Now approach the question, again. This time correctly with sincerity.

I thought you were suggesting that worshippers of buddha were called buddhist  etc correlating the name of a religion with the entity worshipped.  That was why I gave an explanation of Christianity.  I must have misunderstood your question.  To be honest I've noticed recently that it is getting harder to understand you.  Your post and the reasoning in them seem to be soo convoluted. 
You seem to define a God as a entity that is worshipped.  By that reasoning then if I were to worship a table then that table would be a God.  I don't agree.  If no one in the world worshipped God, ie if they all became atheist, God will still be God.  Divinity is not defined by whether or not you are worshipped. 

I say that you sir, are a liar! I am not god. No muslim is a god. If you are a god, maybe in the same calibre as what you made Jesus to be? Why isn't any Christian worshipping you? Pastor, Oje ti poju.

To be a god does not necessarily mean that you have to be worshipped.  Only the Creator is worthy of worship.  Even that word worship, I have not got a straight answer from anybody on Nairaland about what is meant by worship.  Is it prayer?  Don't we pray (petition) to our bank manager when we want to get a loan?  Is it praise?  Don't we praise Didier Drogba when he scores a fantastic goal for Chelsea Football Club. 
No, none of the above are worship.  To worship the creator is to conduct yourself according to the rules and laws that he laid down at your creation.  To fulfill your nature and your virtue as he intended it. Only this is acceptable as worship.  You see, only a Creator can be worshipped, because worship is to fulfill the intention of the creator.   Obedience will always supercede all forms of rituals and sacrifices and salahs and pillars and whatnots.
Honour and respect, on the other hand is something that we ought to extend all to each other.

Pastor, wa bo sihin, wa bo soun, in the same way Fela said to ba rojo sihin, to rojo soun, to roju tu e, oro di un. When you know that you will be trapped for saying that you are devine, you began to back pedal out of a terrible statement like that!

Back pedal ke!  When did I back pedal.  I repeat to you that I am divine.  The bible backs me up on this:

THE BOOK OF
PSALMS
PSALM 82
Thus saith the Lord: Ye are gods and children of the Most High.
A PSALM OF ASAPH.
  1 God astandeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
  2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the apersons of the wicked? Selah.
  3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do ajustice to the afflicted and needy.
  4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
  5 They know not, neither will they understand; they awalk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
  6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are achildren of the most High.
  7 But ye shall adie like men, and fall like one of the princes.
  8 Arise, O God, ajudge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

And this from John 10

  31 Then the Jews took up astones again to stone him.
  32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
  33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for ablasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself bGod.
  34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are agods?
  35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
  36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath asanctified, and bsent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the cSon of God?


So maybe it's time for your own 'Oro' to 'di un'. Then let the word of God flow into your heart. loose the chains, set you free from captivity. Become divine, an authority in this world. Let him lift the yoke. The yoke of ostensible religiousity, the yoke of inferiority, the yoke of barbarity and all those other yokes that you know better than me.

What kind of devine being are you? The one who uses the bathroom, gets tired, eats because of a hunger, the one who gets sick, etc? You sound just like the fake divinity that you ascribe to Jesus! I love Prophet Jesus son of Mary!

So yes, I'll answer you yet again, that I am indeed divine, A god.  And you are quite right, I am a god that uses the bathroom and toilet and I get hungry.  God even said that though I am divine I will die and fall like one of the human princes.  Even the gods will face judgement.  We have been given authority and we will be judged on how we use the authority.  Have we favoured wicked persons?  Have we failed to do justice to the afflicted and the needy?  Each of us have been appropriated a part of God's administration and we will be judged on how we use the authority conferred on us. 

I hope you understand me.

Pastor AIO:

I hope you understand me.

Olabowale can never ever ever understand you the good news of christianity is just beyond his myopic muslim orientation.

@PastorAIO:

The one that is doing me here is the fact that a seasoned and veteran 'prophet' like Mohammed could not tell God from Devil.  Since he was incapable of making the distinction that leaves me wondering how much more of the koran is also Satanic.  Maybe it is the abrogation that is SAtanic too.  Without a rule or a measure there is just no telling.

If a dinner table is spread and contains many dishes. If several plates of bits and pieces of mean are put in them. I do not eat Turkey for example, but upon taking a pice from a plate and chew it, then discovered that it to be turkey. And i never take a bit of anything that looks like a bird, just to be safe. Can any of the dinner guest thereby assumed that I love Turkey, since i from the time of my discovery only eat beef, etc and not bird? Can I also assume that the rest of the bird-looking flesh is Turkey, unless i ask the the dinner host or the cooks?

Pastor, this is your case. What is doing you is many, but you don't know it yet. One of them is assumption without any supporting reasons and the other is probably deceiption or the typical pastor game process of conversation with unbelievers like the muslims. If you know what you call the satanic verses, you will know that they are in Surah Najm! But considering that there are many verses in that Surah, the influence of Satan in twisting the tongue was a temporary test from God Almighty Allah.

Then you do know that there are over 6000 verses in the Qur'an, and 114 chapters. In the same Qur'an one is instructed about how to get ride of an influence of Satan, at all time. And the recitation of Qur'an is began, always with Audu billahi minal shaitani rajim, meaning I seek refuge in God against the devil who is deprived any blessing, therefore cursed. You should be at least be honest in dialogue.

And when we write about the Bible, we point to you only your deficient understanding of your own Book. I am confident that you can somehow understand that, but may not want to admit it.

I thought you were suggesting that worshippers of buddha were called buddhist  etc correlating the name of a religion with the entity worshipped.  That was why I gave an explanation of Christianity.  I must have misunderstood your question.  To be honest I've noticed recently that it is getting harder to understand you.  Your post and the reasoning in them seem to be soo convoluted.  

I write Yoruba english. And for you a Yoruba man, there is no reason for your complaint, unless something hard is doing you. PastorAIO, you make me laugh. When people want to hide behind their finger, they suddenly dont understand.

You seem to define a God as a entity that is worshipped.  By that reasoning then if I were to worship a table then that table would be a God.  I don't agree.  If no one in the world worshipped God, ie if they all became atheist, God will still be God.  Divinity is not defined by whether or not you are worshipped.

If your definition is different from the mainstream Christians, then i wonder whether you really a christian. maybe you have your own religion and just call yourself Christian. And we are talking about Jesus, here. So restrict yourself to that. If Jesus is claimed to be devine, and also god and worshipped, in praises, thanks and supplication, I do not know any other way of classifying him, except what the christians say about him. If it walks, and quacks like a duck, it usually is.  

And just because somebody thinks he is worshipping something does not make that thing a true God! And just somebody says something is devine, does not make that thing trul denive. This is the case of Jesus god and devinity as claimed by Christianity.







[Quote]
To be a god does not necessarily mean that you have to be worshipped.  Only the Creator is worthy of worship.  Even that word worship, I have not got a straight answer from anybody on Nairaland about what is meant by worship.  Is it prayer?  Don't we pray (petition) to our bank manager when we want to get a loan?  Is it praise?  Don't we praise Didier Drogba when he scores a fantastic goal for Chelsea Football Club.  
[/quote]

Worship means, make prescribed prayers. It included praising, supplicating, petitioning, remembering and keeping the laws and commandments, etc. Do you do all of the above, etc, having Jesus as the object of your worship, aduring him? If the answer is yes, then he is also your god, since God is God anyhow, even if no one is worshipping Him. If you worship Jesus, then at least you now have more than one god, making him a partner with God who has the right of worship.

No, none of the above are worship.  To worship the creator is to conduct yourself according to the rules and laws that he laid down at your creation.  To fulfill your nature and your virtue as he intended it. Only this is acceptable as worship.  You see, only a Creator can be worshipped, because worship is to fulfill the intention of the creator.   Obedience will always supercede all forms of rituals and sacrifices and salahs and pillars and whatnots.
Honour and respect, on the other hand is something that we ought to extend all to each other.

I used to share an apartment with somebody in the Theater, over a decade ago, in NYC. This person was a buhhdist. They have a cubical framed structure with and probably nothing more with it. I did not pay too much attention to it, so i can't accurately describe it. But they will beat a gong and rhymmically hum to it. This structure was the object of worship. The Aborishas or the onishongos or the Abooguns have their own structures. Yet most believed that there is god, too. Just like you. You worship Jesus and you also worship God, however you choose, calling Him a name that pleases you. No wonder you say god the father, a statement that is untrue.







[Quote]
Back pedal ke!  When did I back pedal.  
[/quote]

At least I like your style. You are not overly sensitive. You are funny, robustly jovial.

I repeat to you that I am divine.  The bible backs me up on this:

THE BOOK OF
PSALMS
PSALM 82
Thus saith the Lord: Ye are gods and children of the Most High.
A PSALM OF ASAPH.
 1 God astandeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the apersons of the wicked? Selah.
 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do ajustice to the afflicted and needy.
 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they awalk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are achildren of the most High.
 7 But ye shall adie like men, and fall like one of the princes.
 8 Arise, O God, ajudge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

And this from John 10

 31 Then the Jews took up astones again to stone him.
 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for ablasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself bGod.
 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are agods?
 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath asanctified, and bsent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the cSon of God?

You see the many types and hues of gods that your Bible hue together? male and female gods. Even inanimated ones, eg stones, trees, etc. Orishi rishi lonshele sie, ala fela Anikulapo. And it is this you want us belief in? Abeg o.






[Quote]
So yes, I'll answer you yet again, that I am indeed divine, A god.  And you are quite right, I am a god that uses the bathroom and toilet and I get hungry.  God even said that though I am divine I will die and fall like one of the human princes.  Even the gods will face judgement.  
[/quote]

Omoya, you are too flippant with the word god. It does not mean anything or this much a space between two finger tips pressesd together. Unfortunately, your god that does die or did die is not a God. You just called him god, out of your own desires. The reality is different. Just like Baal, the gods will be punished, except that they were not willing gods.

We have been given authority and we will be judged on how we use the authority.  Have we favoured wicked persons?  Have we failed to do justice to the afflicted and the needy?  Each of us have been appropriated a part of God's administration and we will be judged on how we use the authority conferred on us.

There is something in the architecture called a house within ahouse. it simple means a complete apartment with a house that is not designed for multiple dwellings. In this case the house within the main house can not exist and it is not truly a house of its own, except that it is under the main house. All those qualities that you have which has caused you to ascribe , though wrongly, godship to yourself, they are incomplete qualities and under the complete Universal coverage quality of God.

Its like having small umbrellas carried by individuals to shield themselves from the elements, yet they are under an umbrella type structure that covers all of them and still have room left for more, except that there is no one else to come. Which Umbrella is covering the individual in the true sense? It has to be the Big umbrella. This is the case of your being a god versus God the Almighty.

I hope you understand me.

I understand you alright. you are terrible. Now, do you understand me? Ma se bi awon onishongo o!





@Jagoon: She jagun niyen? Okare. You know my myopicism well. Just dont die si gifa, as keferi. Ko ra e sowun. lol.

If any prophet told me that my simple post on true Christianity will turn into what I have read so far, I would have dismissed his prophecy.

Please, the post is not meant to argue over the nature of God, but as simple as the beginning of the thread.

The thread is not about the Holy Trinity or Islam.


My father was not a Christian and my grandparents were not Christians and my ancestors were not Christians.
God revealed the Truth to me and the Truth is made manifest in Jesus Christ as he said that He is the way,  the the truth and the life and no one can come to God, except through him.
I do not argue with that and anyone who refuses to accept that should be ready for the future of all those who reject the Truth.

As far as I am concerened from all the researches I have done both in all relgions and metaphysics which my father taught me, JESUS CHRIST is the Truth, anything contrary is a LIE.


To separate the Truth from the Lie, simply place the life of Jesus Christ side by side with that of the founders of the other dissenting religions and examine what they preached and compare with what they practiced.
Facts do not lie.

Jesus Christ never  killed anyone.
He did not even ask his disciples to wage holy war against those who tortured and crucified him.

He never lied to marry and have sex with a 9 year old girl or lied to one of his 13 wives to send her on an errand so  that he would sleep with her pretty housemaid.

Jesus Christ never beheaded anyone and abducted the wives of those he killed.

He never promised any fanatic 72 virgins if the fanatic went on a killing rampage of "infidels".

Jesus Christ never forced anyone to follow him.
He used the Word and never used the sword.

Jesus Christ was honest and transparent.


Jesus Christ is the only one I know is the same yesterday, today and forever.

I will not argue with anyone.

My choice to be a Christian is signed and sealed.


May God help us all.

I hereby close my case.

Orikinla:

If any prophet tols me that my simple post on true Christianity will turn into what I have read so far, I would have dismissed his prophecy.

Please, the post is not meant to argue over the nature of God, but as simple as the beginning of the thread.

The thread is not about the Holy Trinity or Islam.


My father was not a Christian and my grandparents were not Christians and my ancestors were not Christians.
God revealed the Truth to me and the Truth is made manifest in Jesus Christ as he said that He is the way,  the the truth and the life and no one can come to God, except through him.
I do not argue with that and anyone who refuses to accept that should be ready for the future of all those who reject the Truth.

As far as I am concerened from all the researches I have done both in all relgions and metaphysics which my father taught me, JESUS CHRIST is the Truth, any contrary is a LIE.


To separate the Truth from the Lie, simply place the life of Jesus Christ side by side with that of the founder of the other dissenting religions and examine what they preached and compare with what they practiced.

Jesus Christ never shed killed anyone.
He never lied to marry and have sex with a 9 year old girl or lied to one of his 13 wives to send her on an errand so  that he would sleep with her pretty housemaid.

Jesus Christ never beheaded anyone and abducted the wives of those he killed.

He never promised any fanatic 72 virgins if the fanatic went on a killing rampage of "infidels".

Jesus Christ never forced anyone to follow.

Jesus Christ was honest and transparent.


Jesus Christ is the only one I know is the same yesterday, today and forever.

I will not argue with anyone.

My choice to be a Christian is a signed and sealed.


May God help us all.

I hereby close my case.

olabowale:

Can any of the dinner guest thereby assumed that I love Turkey, since i from the time of my discovery only eat beef, etc and not bird?

Me too I like Turkey, I can't wait for the opportunity to visit Istanbul.  But what exactly are you saying here.

Pastor, this is your case. What is doing you is many, but you don't know it yet. One of them is assumption without any supporting reasons and the other is probably deceiption or the typical pastor game process of conversation with unbelievers like the muslims. If you know what you call the satanic verses, you will know that they are in Surah Najm! But considering that there are many verses in that Surah, the influence of Satan in twisting the tongue was a temporary test from God Almighty Allah.

How do you know that the entire edifice of Islam is not a test from the almighty to see if you will be swayed away from the truth of christianity?

I write Yoruba english. And for you a Yoruba man, there is no reason for your complaint, unless something hard is doing you. PastorAIO, you make me laugh. When people want to hide behind their finger, they suddenly don't understand.

Yoruba English!  My brother, the yoruba are noted for their expert use of many rhetorical devices, especially the use of proverbs.  To the extent that we say that if the idea is lost (ie it is hard to grasp) then proverbs will find it (make it graspable).  Proverbs are the vehicle for ideas.  Owe ni eshin oro.
Now while I wouldn't claim to be an agbedegbeyo by any stretch of the imagination I feel the need to advice you to suspend the use of allegories when you are discussing.  Your use of Allegory is just so terrible.  You are better off just saying what you want to say directly.  Dinner tables?  Turkeys?   But you want to avoid bird because You didn't know Turkey was turkey.  Are you saying that Mohammed didn't know that the satanic verses were Turkey and he thought he was eating beef, but after he realised he decided to ask the host before he ate another bird.  Dear o dear o dear.  I don't know where to start with all of that.

Perhaps if . . . hmmm, I don't know whether you like this idea. . . . But if you really want to learn the proper use of allegory you will never find a better model to follow than Jesus Christ himself.  Check out any of the parables.  The message in them hits you loud and clear.  Straight to the heart.  Your spirit will respond to it.  The striking thing about them is their simplicity.  None of that Turkeys and dinner tables full of many dishes contorted scenarios.  meat beaf and whatnot. 

If your definition is different from the mainstream Christians, then i wonder whether you really a christian. maybe you have your own religion and just call yourself Christian. And we are talking about Jesus, here. So restrict yourself to that. If Jesus is claimed to be devine, and also god and worshipped, in praises, thanks and supplication, I do not know any other way of classifying him, except what the christians say about him. If it walks, and quacks like a duck, it usually is.  

You know what?  I have seriously considered giving up the term Christian because I feel it is almost a meaningless term now with the amount of people using it.  I am what I am.  A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. 

And just because somebody thinks he is worshipping something does not make that thing a true God! And just somebody says something is devine, does not make that thing trul denive. This is the case of Jesus god and devinity as claimed by Christianity.

Thank you.  This is what I said.  To be worshipped does not make you a god.  To be a god does not mean that you are worthy of worship.  The two are not as intrinsically linked as you seem to think.

Worship means, make prescribed prayers. It included praising, supplicating, petitioning, remembering and keeping the laws and commandments, etc. Do you do all of the above, etc, having Jesus as the object of your worship, aduring him? If the answer is yes, then he is also your god, since God is God anyhow, even if no one is worshipping Him. If you worship Jesus, then at least you now have more than one god, making him a partner with God who has the right of worship

.

My brother if that is your definition of worship then I worship my mother.  Yes, I praise my mother, I supplicate her, I petition her, I keep her memory in my heart always whether she is near me or far, and I do my best to keep the injunctions that she instilled into me from my youth.  By your definition I worship my mother.  And I am damn proud to say that I do. 

I used to share an apartment with somebody in the Theater, over a decade ago, in NYC. This person was a buhhdist. They have a cubical framed structure with and probably nothing more with it. I did not pay too much attention to it, so i can't accurately describe it. But they will beat a gong and rhymmically hum to it. This structure was the object of worship. The Aborishas or the onishongos or the Abooguns have their own structures. Yet most believed that there is god, too. Just like you. You worship Jesus and you also worship God, however you choose, calling Him a name that pleases you. No wonder you say god the father, a statement that is untrue.

They are called nichiren Buddhist and the structure is called the gonzho and the chant is Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.  I've engaged many of them in conversation and even gone to their meetings.  However it is not my place to speak for them.  Nor for the onishangos.  However if you Ogbeni (Mr) Olabowale were to do me a good turn, I swear to you that I will honour you before anyone that asks me of you.  I will praise you and if I were to see you coming down the street from afar, I would quickly go and hire the best Ayans that my money can afford to start beating your oriki to match your footsteps.  What ever the oriki of that quarter of Owo that you hail from I will make sure that they beat everything note for note. 
Would I have placed you next to God in worship? 

At least I like your style. You are not overly sensitive. You are funny, robustly jovial.

It feels good to be appreciated.  At least you don't think I'm a miserable kuffur who deserves nothing but to feel the slice of an islamic scimitar. 

Omoya, you are too flippant with the word god. It does not mean anything or this much a space between two finger tips pressesd together. Unfortunately, your god that does die or did die is not a God. You just called him god, out of your own desires. The reality is different. Just like Baal, the gods will be punished, except that they were not willing gods

.

If you say so.

There is something in the architecture called a house within ahouse. it simple means a complete apartment with a house that is not designed for multiple dwellings. In this case the house within the main house can not exist and it is not truly a house of its own, except that it is under the main house. All those qualities that you have which has caused you to ascribe , though wrongly, godship to yourself, they are incomplete qualities and under the complete Universal coverage quality of God.

Its like having small umbrellas carried by individuals to shield themselves from the elements, yet they are under an umbrella type structure that covers all of them and still have room left for more, except that there is no one else to come. Which Umbrella is covering the individual in the true sense? It has to be the Big umbrella. This is the case of your being a god versus God the Almighty.[quote][/quote]

Omo iya, You and I have one nourisher and sustainer in the whole world.  The Creator who is also our protector.  Yet when I was born, my mother fed me.  She taught me, she protected me.  If she is nothing but a small umbrella under a bigger umbrella then so be it. Me I just know that without my mother I will not be where I am today.  I accept that ultimately it is God that has placed me where I am today but he has used my mother by appropriating for her a role to play.  This is part of God's plan.  To suggest that I don't need my mother because I've got God tells me that you have no idea of God's plan and how God has ordered his administration of the world.  We are all here in service of one another.  There are gods that serve as lieutenants to God almighty and I am glad to be counted amongst them.

@PastorAIO:

Me too I like Turkey, I can't wait for the opportunity to visit Istanbul. But what exactly are you saying here.

Unfortunately, you betray your dishonesty by your response. Note that I said "eat." Do you eat the country Turkey? Come on, man.





[Quote]
Pastor, this is your case. What is doing you is many, but you don't know it yet. One of them is assumption without any supporting reasons and the other is probably deceiption or the typical pastor game process of conversation with unbelievers like the muslims. If you know what you call the satanic verses, you will know that they are in Surah Najm! But considering that there are many verses in that Surah, the influence of Satan in twisting the tongue was a temporary test from God Almighty Allah.

How do you know that the entire edifice of Islam is not a test from the almighty to see if you will be swayed away from the truth of christianity?
[/quote]

Christianity? Tell me exactly where Islam merges with Christianity, if only for a moment? The first verses revealed are not the beginning of Qur'an. Suratul Fatiah speaks about Christianity as the people astray. Christianity preached 3 gods. Islam is the antithesis of Christianity. Now tell me if you are truthful, where the test is? Your pastoral training is leaking all over the places. You remind me of that Yoruba guy in England. Some former Muslim pastor. Joshua is his name. He had the audacity to say that Muhammad practiced some form of christianity! I almost jumped. He was selling his lies to the gullible southern people of Atlanta. Is that you pastor, Joshua with a Yoruba last name?







[Quote]
Yoruba English! My brother, the yoruba are noted for their expert use of many rhetorical devices, especially the use of proverbs. To the extent that we say that if the idea is lost (ie it is hard to grasp) then proverbs will find it (make it graspable). Proverbs are the vehicle for ideas. Owe ni eshin oro.
Now while I wouldn't claim to be an agbedegbeyo by any stretch of the imagination I feel the need to advice you to suspend the use of allegories when you are discussing. Your use of Allegory is just so terrible.
[/quote]

I use similitude. Not allegory. But since you are a christian pastor, you are fond of interpretaition, no wonder my speech is terrible.

You are better off just saying what you want to say directly. Dinner tables? Turkeys? But you want to avoid bird because You didn't know Turkey was turkey.

See how plain your dishonesty is? Read my piece, again. About eating I made it clear that to assume that the whole bird fkesh could not therefore be assumed to be Turkey, unless you verify. Remember this was my response about your raising some doubt about how many more verses of the Qur'an may not have come come from Allah, since the Satan twisted some words on the tongue of the prophet.

Are you saying that Mohammed didn't know that the satanic verses were Turkey and he thought he was eating beef, but after he realised he decided to ask the host before he ate another bird. Dear o dear o dear. I don't know where to start with all of that.

Unfortunately, your jokes here fall flat! It simply shows dishonesty. I wonder what you will say about Jesus been driven into the wilderness by satan, then followed by 3 temptations? Or what knowledge is lacked when the fig tree is cursed because it did not have any fruit, out of the season of fig fruits?

Perhaps if . . . hmmm, I don't know whether you like this idea. . . . But if you really want to learn the proper use of allegory you will never find a better model to follow than Jesus Christ himself. Check out any of the parables. The message in them hits you loud and clear. Straight to the heart. Your spirit will respond to it. The striking thing about them is their simplicity. None of that Turkeys and dinner tables full of many dishes contorted scenarios. meat beaf and whatnot.

Perhaps you will now tell me what is allegorical about Mark 12 verse 29. Maybe you will interprete it for me. I need facts, man. Only the fact, not fat. I use similitude, and the allegory is left for the christians.





[Quote]
You know what? I have seriously considered giving up the term Christian because I feel it is almost a meaningless term now with the amount of people using it. I am what I am. A rose by any other name would smell just a sweet.
[/quote]

I dont know whats rosy about a dandilion that you call a rose. Whatever you adopt while discarding the label Christian, as long as you take the Bible as your religious textbook, yo will remain just that. Further a rose plant will be a weed, undesired in a field of Maize.






[Quote]
Thank you. This is what I said. To be worshipped does not make you a god. To be a god does not mean that you are worthy of worship. The two are not as intrinsically linked as you seem to think.
[/quote]

I guess that you agreed with me that Jesus was not worthy of worship, because he was not truly God. But you are too shy to admit it. Pride will lead many to the fire of hell.





[Quote]
My brother if that is your definition of worship then I worship my mother. Yes, I praise my mother, I supplicate her, I petition her, I keep her memory in my heart always whether she is near me or far, and I do my best to keep the injunctions that she instilled into me from my youth. By your definition I worship my mother. And I am damn proud to say that I do.
[/quote]

Then who does your mother worship? Rather who truly deserves th e worship of each one of you as you go back to the past, all the way reaching Adam, the father of mankind?







[Quote]
They are called nichiren Buddhist and the structure is called the gonzho and the chant is Nam Myoho Renge Kyo. I've engaged many of them in conversation and even gone to their meetings. However it is not my place to speak for them. Nor for the onishangos. However if you Ogbeni (Mr) Olabowale were to do me a good turn, I swear to you that I will honour you before anyone that asks me of you. I will praise you and if I were to see you coming down the street from afar, I would quickly go and hire the best Ayans that my money can afford to start beating your oriki to match your footsteps. What ever the oriki of that quarter of Owo that you hail from I will make sure that they beat everything note for note.
Would I have placed you next to God in worship?
[/quote]

With the way you place everything, who can predict how easily you raise the esteem of any person. In your case, you are like Mickey who eats everything. In your case you can worship anything, knowingly or unknowingly. The Owo thing is my mother's. Every child is from the father. I am therefore an Ijebu Ode boy.





[Quote]
It feels good to be appreciated. At least you don't think I'm a miserable kuffur who deserves nothing but to feel the slice of an islamic scimitar.
[/quote]

A kuffar is a kuffar, regardless.





[Quote]
If you say so.
[/quote]

I know you take after the Bible. naming everything god!





[Quote]
Omo iya, You and I have one nourisher and sustainer in the whole world. The Creator who is also our protector. Yet when I was born, my mother fed me. She taught me, she protected me. If she is nothing but a small umbrella under a bigger umbrella then so be it. Me I just know that without my mother I will not be where I am today. I accept that ultimately it is God that has placed me where I am today but he has used my mother by appropriating for her a role to play. This is part of God's plan. To suggest that I don't need my mother because I've got God tells me that you have no idea of God's plan and how God has ordered his administration of the world. We are all here in service of one another. There are gods that serve as lieutenants to God almighty and I am glad to be counted amongst them.
[/quote]

And Muhammad (AS) was what he was without his mother and his father, but God alone. So was Moses, who was raised by God as his archiest enemies became his babysitters.

No Lady. You don't know how I feel about catholics. You know what I've written on this forum about catholicism. What conclusions you then formed from that I don't know.

Honestly do I need to start saving conversations or sayings for people to remind them of the things they have said, cause too many people catch amnesia in this forum o.

Anyway do you want the book or not?

Lady pls i want the book. my email shld be on my profile. thanks

~Lady~:

Honestly do I need to start saving conversations or sayings for people to remind them of the things they have said, cause too many people catch amnesia in this forum o.

Anyway do you want the book or not?

My sister I want the book too o. You can find my details in my profile too. I actually save conversations myself. Or sometimes just the juicy bits of conversations.

Perhaps I've got amnesia but what I recall is discussing the history of the church on a thread and talking about the subject discussed in certain church councils. Then some guy called Imhotep came out of nowhere and started getting all aggressive and vitriolic. I might have fired a few rounds of put-downs in his direction but I never dissed the catholic church. Unless you consider stating historical facts about the church to be a diss.
I even remember comparing the catholic church favourably in contrast to the pentecostals because the priests don't own property and they still practice a form of the shared meal.

But anyhow . . . I would appreciate it if you can send me the book.

Many Thanks