basille: The hypocrisy: I visited the church today with a relative who happens to be a staunch catholic, We got to the adoration room (the adoration room houses a crucifix-like item called ‘The holy sacrament’. People came there to pray and adore) then my relative genuflected and bowed.
I (being an unbeliever of such things) started reflecting towards his actions.

My thoughts were;
The average Nigerian Catholic Christian refers to traditional worshippers as idol worshippers yet they bow down, adore, and worship man-made ornaments.
Christians worship and pray to a man nailed on a cross.
Catholics make use of rosaries and statues while praying, the picture of unknown people been used as Jesus Christ & Mary without sufficient evidence of its authenticity and statutes of their revered deities, is being adorned on altars and prayed to and yet christians claim traditional worshippers serve idols?

Christians, Most especially Catholics might argue that their worship items are a symbolic representation of their deities, shouldn’t the same mind-set be applied to the Traditional worshippers without their idols and worship items been seen as evil?

What so ever being regarded by a party as bad, is bad, irrespective of the situation and devoid of sentiments.
If the average Nigerian Christian (catholic) refers to traditional worshippers idols ( which represent their Almighty deity and performs the same symbolic functions of that of the catholics ornaments) as Evil or bad, then the catholic rosaries, arch-angel Michael statues, unauthenticated pictures and statues of Jesus and Mary, even the crucifix’s hung on the walls of churches are equally bad and evil! since they all perform the same Evil function of representing their respective deities!

Misunderstanding a culture’s symbols is a common root of prejudice – Dan brown.
(N.B: i was born and brought up a Catholic).
Before the foreign missionaries brought Christianity to Nigeria, Our Ancestors existed and worshipped their respective deities just fine…….(To be continued)
Source: http://c321./2014/06/28/hypocrisy-of-the-nigerian-christian-catholic/

.

GOD is a spirit and worshipping Him must be in spirit and in truth. Not via ornamentals, etc.

you are on point

Is that all u have to say? Well we have heard it years years back. Think abt your soul; you need Christ Jesus. God bless u.

Op, go and study your bible, you will understand why Catholic remains the true church of God on earth.
For the last time I checked Catholics don't worship those statues, read Numbers 21 vs 4 - 9 (God restoring life to Isrealites beaten by serpent using brozen serpent), which was expantiated by Jesus in his discussion with Nicodemus as recorded in John 3 vs 14, read also John 9 vs 1- 12 (Jesus healing a blind man with mud made from his saliva). Also in Acts 5 vs 15 - 16, Peter's shadow healed a lot of sick people.
Also in Paul's missionary journey, he performed a lot of miracle with his hankerchief.
From the few instances above, it can be deducted that God is not againt the use of sacrementals or statues but only frown at is worshipping them as God which I know that the Catholics don't do.

What your friend bowed to at the chapel is the body of Christ, which He Christ instituted at the night He was to be betrayed, He broke the unleaven bread and gave to the disciples saying "this is my body", he did not say this looks like my body. He went ahead and instruct them to do that in memory of him (1Cor 11 vs 17 - 33, Luke 22 vs 14 - 23 etc.).
So your friend bowing before the unleaven bread in the chapel, did that to worship Christ who gave us His body and blood in form of bread and wine.

Jesus saves !!!

Oh! Now I know why each catholic has to pray to the image of Mary

if you're so curious why not just google up the facts. Central to Catholic faith is that the Eucharist is Jesus's body and blood, soul and divinity. I.e Jesus is present bodily, where there is the Eucharist. Your relative isn't kneeling to the Gold monstrance, but to the Eucharist.

larrymoore: Oh! Now I know why each catholic has to pray to the image of Mary

No you don't. If you did, you wouldn't write PRAY TO the image of Mary.

The Apostles' Creed
I believe in GOD Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth of all things visible and invisible:
* And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord and Saviour:
* Who was conceived by the incarnate of the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary:
* He Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, died and buried:
He descended into the underworld(grave):
* On the third day He rose again from the dead:
* He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of His Father, GOD Almighty:
* From there, He shall come again in Glory to judge the living and the dead:
* I believe in the Holy Spirit:
* I believe in the Holy Catholic Church and the Apostolic Church: and the Communion of saints:
* I believe in the forgiveness of sins:
* The resurrection of the body:
* And the everlasting life to come.
Amen.

Macelliot: The Apostles' Creed
I believe in GOD Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth of all things visible and invisible:
* And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord and Saviour:
* Who was conceived by the incarnate of the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary:
* He Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, died and buried:
He descended into the underworld(grave):
* On the third day He rose again from the dead:
* He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of His Father, GOD Almighty:
* From there, He shall come again in Glory to judge the living and the dead:
* I believe in the Holy Spirit:
* I believe in the Holy Catholic Church and the Apostolic Church: and the Communion of saints:
* I believe in the forgiveness of sins:
* The resurrection of the body:
* And the everlasting life to come.
Amen.

u beleieve in all these things and yet u cannot define the trinity well, u can also not to belive if in ur catholic church as if to pray with the rosary and bow down to the image of a cartoonic mary, u are really a confused christian, macelliot

Profbrian: u beleieve in all these things and yet u cannot define the trinity well, u can also not to belive if in ur catholic church as if to pray with the rosary and bow down to the image of a cartoonic mary, u are really a confused christian, macelliot

Thanks alot! Hw is this monday morning? Hope all is well! Nice meeting you...... Can I know you more?

Profbrian: u beleieve in all these things and yet u cannot define the trinity well, u can also not to belive if in ur catholic church as if to pray with the rosary and bow down to the image of a cartoonic mary, u are really a confused christian, macelliot

nawaaa!

Alright, catholicism 101
The Athanasian Creed

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

I didn't even source this from a catholic website, and yet it tells you to hold to the catholic faith
http://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/creeds/athanasian-creed


Trinity 101 in diagramatic form

basille: Y'all commenting above me are ignorant mofos, the point of the post is not about if Catholics worship those ornaments or whatever (i honestly don't care if they do). It's about how most Christians condemn traditional worshippers on usage of worship items and ornaments as being evil, whereas they also make use of worship items.

Moral of the post: Anybody is free to practise whatsoever religion that pleases him or her, christianity and traditional worship are no different, so let christians stop the condenmation of TW practises and the 'holier than thou' bs.

learn to value your own indigenous religion not some white-man cooked fiction
P:S i believe in neither of the religions!

the points of the comments is that catholics do not worship those "ornaments" and so no body is permitted to worship idols.

I believe than every man has the GOD GIVEN previlege of following his conscience even in matters of religion, i also believe that each man has the same previlege to spead to others the good he has found, and condemn the percieved evil he sees.

basille: Y'all commenting above me are ignorant mofos, the point of the post is not about if Catholics worship those ornaments or whatever (i honestly don't care if they do). It's about how most Christians condemn traditional worshippers on usage of worship items and ornaments as being evil, whereas they also make use of worship items.

Moral of the post: Anybody is free to practise whatsoever religion that pleases him or her, christianity and traditional worship are no different, so let christians stop the condenmation of TW practises and the 'holier than thou' bs.

learn to value your own indigenous religion not some white-man cooked fiction
P:S i believe in neither of the religions!

Catholicism differs greatly from the treaditional religions in that, while the traditionalists make images and worship those images as gods, catholics make paintings and stautes which remind us of the one true God and of other Holy people. NEVER do we worship these images, or bow down TO them. We may bow in their direction, we may kneel when around them, but never do we bow TO them or KNEEL for them. This is similar to how the muslims face mecca when praying, and bow in the direction of the qabaa (I think that's what it's called), but they never worship the qabaa.

Catholics are not able to see the hypocrisy of which you speak.

They offer prayers to a dead Jewish woman yet are convinced that they do not engage in idolatry.

They pray to saints (they have statues too) and yet they do not see their hypocrisy.

In the same way that those who engage in ancestral worship are convinced that they can communicate with dead people so too are Catholics, some of whom believe that saints are intercessors between themselves and their god.

Of course none of these people have any proof for any of this and thus each belief is as valid as the other...

mmsen: Catholics are not able to see the hypocrisy of which you speak.

They offer prayers to a dead Jewish woman yet are convinced that they do not engage in idolatry.

They pray to saints (they have statues too) and yet they do not see their hypocrisy.

In the same way that those who engage in ancestral worship are convinced that they can communicate with dead people so to are Catholics, some of whom believe that saints are intercessors between themselves and their god.

Of course none of these people have any proof for any of this and thus each belief is as valid as the other...

You've called aspects of catholic faith which are not related to the topic hypocritic without explaining how they're hypocritic. The Jewish woman you say is dead, I assume to be Mary. Mary never died, she was assumed into Heaven; honoured above all women by God himself, and we honour her as best we can ourselves. As someone in heaven we ask her to pray for us. The same thing we ask of the saints. We don't PRAY TO them. This fact can be seen in any Litany of Mary or of the Saints.

So you are wrong on three accounts, please stop falsifying my religion.

MOBJECTIVE:

You've called aspects of catholic faith which are not related to the topic hypocritic without explaining how they're hypocritic. The Jewish woman you say is dead, I assume to be Mary. Mary never died, she was assumed into Heaven; honoured above all women by God himself, and we honour her as best we can ourselves. As someone in heaven we ask her to pray for us. The same thing we ask of the saints. We don't PRAY TO them. This fact can be seen in any Litany of Mary or of the Saints.

So you are wrong on three accounts, please stop falsifying my religion.

1. The points raised are to do with idolatry - that is very much the topic.

2. Please read the first line of my post.

Thank you.

mmsen:

1. The points raised are to do with idolatry - that is very much the topic.

2. Please read the first line of my post.

Thank you.

1. Yes, the topic is about Idolatory. but you raised points about prayer to supposed dead people & failed to explain what this has to do with the type of idolatory presented in the topic, as it's not immediately obvious to dumb people like myself.

2. If i were to say: non-catholics are never able to see they are wrong in everything they say and do, I have expressed my opinion until i can prove this opinion to be true.

Thank you

3. Following from 2, the best way to prove the first sentence of your post is to show that my initial reply to your post is either wrong, or the content of my reply describes idolatory. Otherwise, keep your opinion as an opinion and not a statement of fact.

MOBJECTIVE:

1. Yes, the topic is about Idolatory. but you raised points about prayer to supposed dead people & failed to explain what this has to do with the type of idolatory presented in the topic, as it's not immediately obvious to dumb people like myself.

2. If i were to say: non-catholics are never able to see they are wrong in everything they say and do, I have expressed my opinion until i can prove this opinion to be true.

Thank you

3. Following from 2, the best way to prove the first sentence of your post is to show that my initial reply to your post is either wrong, or the content of my reply describes idolatory. Otherwise, keep your opinion as an opinion and not a statement of fact.

Is there a fundamental difference between praying to dead people or statues...

Do the statues not represent some former living (breathing) being?

mmsen: Catholics are not able to see the hypocrisy of which you speak.

They offer prayers to a dead Jewish woman yet are convinced that they do not engage in idolatry.

They pray to saints (they have statues too) and yet they do not see their hypocrisy.

In the same way that those who engage in ancestral worship are convinced that they can communicate with dead people so too are Catholics, some of whom believe that saints are intercessors between themselves and their god.

Of course none of these people have any proof for any of this and thus each belief is as valid as the other...

if not for the loss of data i was hoping this kind of comparism would have ended in the other thread.

mmsen:

Is there a fundamental difference between praying to dead people or statues...

Do the statues not represent some former living (breathing) being?

I don't know. which is why I asked you to please explain.

I know it is generally accepted that to worship a physical thing such as money, carved images, a person, etc is idolatry. but you simply assumed that praying to dead people is idolatry and from that asumption you went on to wrongly accuse Catholics of being idolators (or whatever it is called) because you thought they prayed to dead people.

Well, even if praying to dead people is idolatry, Catholics DO NOT PRAY TO dead people and so ARE NOT idol worshippers (whatever it is called), therefore, the accusation of hypocrisy should be dropped because:

while the traditionalists do, we do not:
*worship carved images, or any images at all.

*pray to dead people, or any being other than God; the only Divine being.

so we cannot be said to be hypocrites as we do not practise ourselves what we say to others are bad.

MOBJECTIVE:

I don't know. which is why I asked you to please explain.

I know it is generally accepted that to worship a physical thing such as money, carved images, a person, etc is idolatry. but you simply assumed that praying to dead people is idolatry and from that asumption you went on to wrongly accuse Catholics of being idolators (or whatever it is called) because you thought they prayed to dead people.

Well, even if praying to dead people is idolatry, Catholics DO NOT PRAY TO dead people and so ARE NOT idol worshippers (whatever it is called), therefore, the accusation of hypocrisy should be dropped because:

while the traditionalists do, we do not:
*worship carved images, or any images at all.

*pray to dead people, or any being other than God; the only Divine being.

so we cannot be said to be hypocrites as we do not practise ourselves what we say to others are bad.

So prayers are not offered to Mary?

To the various saints?

What is this?:


Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.


I can very easily pull up a number of prayers offered to St Anthony and whoever else I choose to search for.

You don't have a leg to stand on. Remember, the first rung of the ladder of hypocrisy is dishonesty.

mmsen:

So prayers are not offered to Mary?

To the various saints?

Show me these prayers and we can answer your questions.
perhaps you can show us what we say in the Hail Mary or in the Litanny of the blessed virgin mary. It's a simple matter of looking at these prayers and checking if we are PRAYING TO Mary or asking her to PRAY FOR US. Then maybe you can compare with how we pray TO God. the litanny of the blessed virgin Mary is enough to check these.

mmsen:

So prayers are not offered to Mary?

To the various saints?

What is this?:


Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.


I can very easily pull up a number of prayers offered to St Anthony and whoever else I choose to search for.

You don't have a leg to stand on. Remember, the first rung of the ladder of hypocrisy is dishonesty.

please do so. in the mean time, lets compare that prayer with the OUR FATHER

Our Father,
Who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom Come.
Thy will be done on earth,
As it is in Heaven.
Give us this day,
Our daily bread.
and forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Amen.


In the Hail Mary, we simply repeat what Mary herself said in the Magnificat in the Gospel according to Luke. at the end, we ask her to pray for us. we do not ask her of anything which a divine being does.

compare this to the Our father. we give him his due glory and praise, we ask him for forgiveness and sustenance and for his will to be done, among other things. All things a divine being can do, and very different from what we ask of Mary.


It is also important to note how when we say the Hail Mary, we praise God with the same words Mary herself used to praise God. In essence, you will not find a single Catholic prayer that gives praise or worship or Glory to any other being other than God. the most you will ever find is us asking a saint or Angel or Mary to pray for us. If you find one, then it is NOT Catholic.

[b]Unfailing Prayer to St. Anthony

"Blessed be God in His angels and in His saints."

O Holy St. Anthony, gentlest of Saints, you love for God and Charity for His creatures, made you worthy, when on earth, to possess miraculous powers. Miracles waited on your word, which you were ever ready to speak for those in trouble or anxiety. Encouraged by this thought, I implore of you to obtain for me (state request here). The answer to my prayer may require a miracle, even so, you are the Saint of Miracles.

O gentle and loving St. Anthony, whose heart was ever full of human sympathy, whisper my petition into the eaars of the Sweet Infant Jesus, who loved to be folded in your arms; and the gratitude of my heart will ever be yours. Amen.


Seeking a Lost Article

Dear St. Anthony, you are the patron of the poor and the helper of all who seek lost articles. Help me to find the object I have lost so that I will be able to make better use of the time that I will gain for God's greater honor and glory. Grant your gracious aid to all people who seek what they have lost---especially those who seek to regain God's grace. Amen.[/b]

The simple fact is that Catholics offer prayers to dead people.

They statues are a part of their prayers and worship.

That is idolatry.

mmsen: [b]Unfailing Prayer to St. Anthony

"Blessed be God in His angels and in His saints."

O Holy St. Anthony, gentlest of Saints, you love for God and Charity for His creatures, made you worthy, when on earth, to possess miraculous powers. Miracles waited on your word, which you were ever ready to speak for those in trouble or anxiety. Encouraged by this thought, I implore of you to obtain for me (state request here). The answer to my prayer may require a miracle, even so, you are the Saint of Miracles.

O gentle and loving St. Anthony, whose heart was ever full of human sympathy, whisper my petition into the eaars of the Sweet Infant Jesus, who loved to be folded in your arms; and the gratitude of my heart will ever be yours. Amen.


Seeking a Lost Article

Dear St. Anthony, you are the patron of the poor and the helper of all who seek lost articles. Help me to find the object I have lost so that I will be able to make better use of the time that I will gain for God's greater honor and glory. Grant your gracious aid to all people who seek what they have lost---especially those who seek to regain God's grace. Amen.[/b]

The simple fact is that Catholics offer prayers to dead people.

They statues are a part of their prayers and worship.

That is idolatry.

The only fact you've shown is that Catholics Pray.and Any one who takes even a minute to read any of our prayers will clearly see that their aim is Always God. their centrality is always God. their reason is always for God. In the prayers you've shown us this is the case, and will continue to be the the case.

I have shown that Catholics pray to dead intercessors.

That is no different from idolatry.

The very first point that I made is very much true.

mmsen: I have shown that Catholics pray to dead intercessors.

That is no different from idolatry.

The very first point that I made is very much true.

you've failed to show how these prayers are prayers to dead people. The above are prayers, where in them do we pray to these dead people?

MOBJECTIVE:

you've failed to show how these prayers are prayers to dead people. The above are prayers, where in them do we pray to these dead people?

The prayers are addressed to the dead people.

Your insistence that they are not is incredibly dishonest.

I've heard of apologetics but this is ridiculous.

mmsen:

The prayers are addressed to the dead people.

Your insistence that they are not is incredibly dishonest.

I've heard of apologetics but this is ridiculous.

I think this is a misunderstanding. For one minute, empty your mind and read these prayers and what it means to pray to someone.

then answer the question: Think of all the things you could ask of God when praying to him. whilst saying these prayers, have we prayed to the saint ?
if you feel you have prayed to the saint them the prayer is unacceptable and it is not Catholic. However i can see straight away that the prayers you've shown us are acceptable and are Catholic even though i now see why it would be difficult for you to understand.

MOBJECTIVE:

I think this is a misunderstanding. For one minute, empty your mind and read these prayers and what it means to pray to someone.

then answer the question: Think of all the things you could ask of God when praying to him. whilst saying these prayers, have we prayed to the saint ?
if you feel you have prayed to the saint them the prayer is unacceptable and it is not Catholic. However i can see straight away that the prayers you've shown us are acceptable and are Catholic even though i now see why it would be difficult for you to understand.

What you have just said is that the prayers should be looked at objectively.

I was not raised Catholic as such my impression of the Catholic doctrine is not clouded by dogma.

I would suggest that you follow your own advice and read those prayers and your Bible with an open and honest mind.