somebody told me Hell Fire on and burning now, and that people that has died sinners are in Hell Fire. But The Devil is in the world, tempting and decisiving people, As we know from the Bible, Hell is meant for the devil and his agents, then why would the devil be in the world why people will be in Hell fire surffering.

Who get answer?

after the final judgement the devil will finally be cast into hell.there are some of this things that defy common reasonig. watch ur ways . u re made for heaven not hell. but the choice is all urs.

@Post

Good question u raised there. . .

According to scriptures, those who die still sleeps till the end of the age when judgement will take place.

After the judgement, those whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the Lake of fire along with the devil and his cohorts.

Scriptures;

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

@naomijt,

naomijt:

According to scriptures, those who die still sleeps till the end of the age when judgement will take place.

Thank you for your brief but packed answers.

Gotta love Revelations.

A book that almost got thrown out of the Bible and refers to the Fall of the Roman Empire is still used by people today as a basis for fear.

webpro:

somebody told me Hell Fire on and burning now, and that people that has died sinners are in Hell Fire. . . then why would the devil be in the world why people will be in Hell fire surffering.

Nobody is in Hell fire at the moment. Shocked? Okay, that's my understanding, so no heart-attacks.

The thing is that according to the Revelation 19-20, if we follow the chronology of events, this is how the judgement is laid out:

1. the false prophet and the beast are first cast in -- Revelation 19:20

2. then the devil is next cast in, where (1) above has taken place -- Revelation 20:10

       the Great White Throne judgement ensues (Rev. 20:11)

3. next, death and hell are cast in -- Revelation 20:14

4. then all the wicked are next cast in -- Revelation 20:15.

But why "hell" in Rev. 20:14 - is that to say that "hell" is cast into "Hell Fire"? Lol, no. The "hell" in Rev. 20:14 is "hades", a sphere that holds the wicked dead - it is different from the final place of judgement known as the Lake of Fire (which we commonly call "Hell Fire". This 'Lake of Fire' points to the very figure of judgement Jesus spoke about in the Gospels with the term "Gehenna" (or 'γέεννα', geenna - Mark 9:47).

Hades and Gehenna are not the same, for Revelation 20:14 shows that it was hades which is cast into Gehenna. Those who refuse to repent and die in that condition will be held in hades until that day - and that is why I said that no one is in Hell Fire (Gehenna) at the moment. It is only when Judgement takes place that Gehenna becomes operative for the wicked dead. May our hearts and minds trust Jesus Christ while we are alive.

Regards.

Nobody is in Hell-fire simply because it doesn't exist. It's a Christian scare-story invented to frighten people.

Early Christians believed that they were living through the end-times. The whole book of Revelations is about Roman oppression and what is supposed to happen when the Empire falls. It's already supposed to have happened. Get over it.

Nobody has to quarrel about the Revelation, and if fear is the only thing that some people see in that Book, good for them - it simple shows they see nothing else there, which again does not mean that divine judgement was never preached by other prophets.

Is hell a physical entity or a metaphoric one? Just a thought.

When Jesus said "Today, you shall be with me in paradise", I suppose he meant it. What would the bandit have understood by that statement?

Is the bandit now in paradise waiting for the judgment day?

Is he in the company of Moses, Abraham, Joshua, Alijah, Paul, James, etc, etc?

Is there a difference between paradise and heaven?

@ pilgrim

what about all the christains that have claimed to have been to hell? what have you got to say about them? what about all of OLAADEGBU stories of people who he claims have been to hell? if there is no one in hell right now how does his storeis add up? not that i believe in hell but there are so many christains out there and moslems too who have claimed to have been to hell are you now saying they are all lying?

The only hell that exist is poverty,ignorance, close mindedness and illetracy. . . . . . . hell is only an imagination. . . .

LOL. Fear isn't an issue in Revelation? The whole book is riddled with it. Please Pilgrim, belittling the amount of fear that the book exudes to those who read it is very, very misleading. It was written by a bitter, exiled Christian (not John) who had one hell of a big axe to grind against the Roman Empire. And like I said, a lot of people agreed that it shouldn't even be in the Bible.
But it's relevance is what I'm mainly referring to:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

The historical-critical approach, which has become dominant among scholars of religion since the end of the 18th century, attempts to understand Revelation in its first century historical context within the genre of Jewish and Christian apocalyptic literature. This approach considers the text as an address to seven historical communities in Asia Minor. Under this view, assertions that "the time is near" are to be taken literally by those communities. Consequently the work is viewed as a warning not to conform to contemporary Greco-Roman society which John "unveils" as beastly, demonic and subject to divine judgment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/texts/revelation.shtml

So it seems that the Book of Revelation is not prophesising the end of the world but is a polemic against the Roman Empire.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5b.htm

Most of the events in Revelation have already happened, perhaps during the persecution of Christians during the reign of Emperors Nero or Domitian before Christianity was tolerated early in the 4th century CE.

And let's not forget:

The seer of Patmos, identified with the apostle, is granted a series of visions meant to reassure the Christians of Asia amid the persecutions and trials of the end of the first century." - Pope Benedict XVI, 23 August 2006

Not only does he recognise that it's a text for the first century but he doesn't even bother kidding himself that John wrote it.

@huxley,

huxley:

Is hell a physical entity or a metaphoric one? Just a thought.

The question should rather be one of reality, not just a dichotomy between "physical" and metaphorical - reality is not limited to physical plane. Hell is a real sphere, regardless the interpretations one argues about it. The argument some people have advanced aaginst this is to hold the world only in terms of physical experiences - and that is why they do not see anything other than that.

huxley:

When Jesus said "Today, you shall be with me in paradise", I suppose he meant it. What would the bandit have understood by that statement?

Agreed that He meant it - whether or not the bandit understood its import lucidly. We cannot interpret for him his own perception for him as we cannot force ideas into people's minds until they declare them themselves. But in consonance to the fact that Christ meant precisely what He meant, no one who carefully reads that verse in connection with other verses on the subject would fail to see its significance.

huxley:

Is the bandit now in paradise waiting for the judgment day?

Dear huxley, people are not lumped into one general group to face the same judgement - that is not what the Bible teaches. Paradise is a sphere that no wicked person will experience - it is never used once in the Bible as a place that holds the wicked dead. Rather, the wicked dead are held in hades, and not in παράδεισος ('paradeisos').

huxley:

Is he in the company of Moses, Abraham, Joshua, Alijah, Paul, James, etc, etc?

Is there a difference between paradise and heaven?

There is a difference between paradise and heaven - either of them referring to differing spheres.

Regards.

But why stop there?
We've heard from the boss of the Catholic Church, but what about the others?

Protestant founder Martin Luther at first considered Revelation to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it", and placed it in his Antilegomena. John Calvin believed the book to be canonical, yet it was the only New Testament book on which he did not write a commentary.

In the 4th century, Gregory of Nazianzus and other bishops argued against including this book in the New Testament canon, chiefly because of the difficulties of interpreting it and the danger for abuse. Christians in Syria also reject it because of the Montanists' heavy reliance on it. In the 9th century, it was included with the Apocalypse of Peter among "disputed" books in the Stichometry of St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople. In the end it was included in the accepted canon, although it remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Bastage:

And let's not forget:

Not only does he recognise that it's a text for the first century but he doesn't even bother kidding himself that John wrote it.

And according to one reading, only 144000 are suppose to go to heaven. Given that there are more that 30 billions humans have ever existed, your chances of being amongst the 144000 is infinitesimal.

your chances of being amongst the 144000 is infinitesimal.

Not unless your name is pilgrim.1!!! 

@mazaje,

mazaje:

@ pilgrim

what about all the christains that have claimed to have been to hell? what have you got to say about them? what about all of OLAADEGBU stories of people who he claims have been to hell? if there is no one in hell right now how does his storeis add up? not that i believe in hell but there are so many christains out there and moslems too who have claimed to have been to hell are you now saying they are all lying?

The only hell that exist is poverty,ignorance, close mindedness and illetracy. . . . . . . hell is only an imagination. . . .

Hell is not an imagination - and that is why I knew that as soon as I posted any responses, so many people would inundate this thread with remarks and wise-cracks.

In the first place, I set clearly the difference between hades and gehenna - they are not the same spheres. Those who have shared their experiences about having been to "hell" and back are more likely speaking about "hades" and not Gehenna. Let me remind you with a verse from the Bible to show the difference:

           Luke 16:23 -
           And in hell (ᾅδης - hadēs) he lift up his eyes,
           being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,
           and Lazarus in his bosom.

Notice something here: "hadēs" is a place of torment as well for the wicked dead; but it is not to be confused for the final place of judgement; because those who are held in that sphere (hadēs), will be delivered out of it to stand before the Great White Throne judgement (Revelation 20:13); and that time, this same sphere known as "hadēs" will be cast along with death into the "lake of fire" (v. 14). Could I outline them again? Here:

    ●   "hadēs"  -- Luke 16:23

    ●   "Gehenna" -- Mark 9:47

    ●   "Lake of Fire" (or "Hell Fire" - Rev. 20:14-15

The place where those folks have visited with descriptions of souls screaming from "torments" answers to Hades and not Gehenna - for Gehenna is the place the book of Revelation calls "the Lake of Fire".

Cheers.



hadēs

Bastage:

Not unless your name is pilgrim.1!!!

Thanks for the teasing - but it is really unnecessary, unless you're reacting to something that makes you unable to contain yourself.

@huxley,

huxley:

And according to one reading, only 144000 are suppose to go to heaven. Given that there are more that 30 billions humans have ever existed, your chances of being amongst the 144000 is infinitesimal.

That is not true, huxley - and when people react like this, it is because they do so out of a passion to ignore the issues they should have read in all simplicity. Could I ask you to quote the reference and see things for yourself? if not, then I could oblige you - but it doesn't help to keep making these false statements just to palcate yourself.

Hell is not an imagination - and that is why I knew that as soon as I posted any responses, so many people would inundate this thread with remarks and wise-cracks.

Up on that soap-box again, Pilgrim?

Shall I tell you something about Hell? Here are your words:

It is only when Judgement takes place that Gehenna becomes operative for the wicked dead. May our hearts and minds trust Jesus Christ while we are alive.

Trust in Jesus so we don't go to Hell? Worship so we aren't punished? Then on the other hand, there's Heaven. Trust in Jesus so we're rewarded? That's not worshipping for the sake of God. That's called "Service to Self". Do you know who you're really worshipping when you partake in "Service to Self"? Go away and have a think about it.

If there is a Hell - so what?
If there is a Heaven - so what?

They are totally and utterly irrelevant. One is a carrot and one is a stick. Get rid of them. You don't need them. It's what is behind that carrot and stick that is relevant.

If Hell exists, you will never be able to avoid it by trying to avoid it. If Heaven exists, you will never get there by trying to get there. You're working too hard and all you're doing is digging yourself in deeper. Give it up. Believe in your god. That's all you need to do. Why do you think He died for you?

@huxley,

Okay, you went offline. Let me help you:

huxley:

And according to one reading, only 144000 are suppose to go to heaven.

Not true. Let me refer you to that same passage where many people fail to see beyond the verse you are stopping at:

    Revelation 7

    ●  The 144, 000 were from the Tribe of Israel  -  verse 4

        And I heard the number of them which were sealed:
        and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand
        of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

        (Then verses 5 to 8 shows 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes)

    ●  Afterwards, there were a huge number of believers from all the world:
        (verse 9)

        After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could numb[/b]er,
        of [b]all nations,
        and kindreds,
        and people,
        and tongues,
        stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes,
        and palms in their hands;

Many people only stop at either verse 4 or 8 - they never go on to verse 9 to see the huge number of people from all over the world who shall rejoice in the same blessings of that chapter. This is the reason why those who feel that the Book of Revelation is only about fear - good for them: such people make wild statements because they only stop at particular verses and no further than that.

Regards.

Bastage:

If Hell exists, you will never be able to avoid it by trying to avoid it. If Heaven exists, you will never get there by trying to get there. You're working too hard and all you're doing is digging yourself in deeper. Give it up. Believe in your god. That's all you need to do. Why do you think He died for you?

@Bastage, I'm not in the mood for your jokes, please. I have not shown anywhere that I was "trying" to avoid hell - it is not a matter of "trying", and I think it does not serve you anything to push these ideas unjustifiably. I've responded to those who offered a few questions - mazaje, huxley and others, and I have not asked them to "try" to avoid anything. their choice if they want to go there either way; but I don't see why that should help anyone be projecting assertions that are not true - which was whatr I just pointed out to huxley above.

It's not a joke. Why be so defensive? Seriously?

I'll ask you a question then and we can take it from there. If you don't want to answer it then fine. I'm not asking for a long answer or a rebuttal that says I'm not being serious. If you don't want to answer then just say "It's none of your business".

Here's the question.

"Why do you believe in God?"

This is Revelations 14:

1 Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of mighty ocean waves or the rolling of loud thunder. It was like the sound of many harpists playing together.
3 This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. No one could learn this song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 They have kept themselves as pure as virgins,[a] following the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been purchased from among the people on the earth as a special offering[b] to God and to the Lamb. 5 They have told no lies; they are without blame.


6 And I saw another angel flying through the sky, carrying the eternal Good News to proclaim to the people who belong to this world—to every nation, tribe, language, and people. 7 “Fear God,” he shouted. “Give glory to him. For the time has come when he will sit as judge. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all the springs of water.”
8 Then another angel followed him through the sky, shouting, “Babylon is fallen—that great city is fallen—because she made all the nations of the world drink the wine of her passionate immorality.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand 10 must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”

12 This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they are blessed indeed, for they will rest from their hard work; for their good deeds follow them!”

How are we to understand the above?

Bastage:

It's not a joke. Why be so defensive? Seriously?

I'm not being defensive - unless you deliberately wanted to read me so. I simply asked what your benefit was in the jokes and why makes statements that I never stated in my rejoinders and then attribute them to me?

Bastage:

"Why do you believe in God?"

I have answered that question in another thread when I shared my testimony on the forum. It is not my style to keep entertaining issues that are not addressing a particular topic of a thread - and I simply allowed you guys to follow the same approach after what you concluded in the previous discussions. If you don't believe in God, I have no problem with that.

@huxley,

huxley:

This is Revelations 14:

1 Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of mighty ocean waves or the rolling of loud thunder. It was like the sound of many harpists playing together.
3 This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. No one could learn this song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 They have kept themselves as pure as virgins,[a] following the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been purchased from among the people on the earth as a special offering to God and to the Lamb. 5 They have told no lies; they are without blame.


6 And I saw another angel flying through the sky, carrying the eternal Good News to proclaim to the people who belong to this world—to every nation, tribe, language, and people. 7 “Fear God,” he shouted. “Give glory to him. For the time has come when he will sit as judge. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all the springs of water.”
8 Then another angel followed him through the sky, shouting, “Babylon is fallen—that great city is fallen—because she made all the nations of the world drink the wine of her passionate immorality.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand 10 must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”

12 This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they are blessed indeed, for they will rest from their hard work; for their good deeds follow them!”

How are we to understand the above?

I already addressed the question of 144,000 above in reference to your statement:[list]

huxley:

And according to one reading, only 144000 are suppose to go to heaven.

Even Revelation 14 does not say that only 144,000 are to go to heaven, does it?

Now, supposing the 144000 were meant as those from the House of Israel.  Does this number also represent ;

1)  Jewish Jews

2)  Jewish Christians

The Jewish population today can be estimated to be about 20 - 30 million.  The number of Jews that have ever lived could be about 200 - 350 million.

Even on this revised calculation, the chances of any one Jew of being saved are miniscule.

OK. I'll take that as you don't want to answer. But I'll also point out that what I had in mind was about as relevant to this topic as anything could be. I respect your wish not to tell me.

If you don't believe in God, I have no problem with that.

You're right. I don't believe in God. I don't have to "believe". I know there is a God. You don't have to believe something you know.

And I'll tell you why I know.
At the end of the day there is only one certainty apart from "I think, therefore I am" and that one certainty is God. God just IS. He is the only IS And that's why I worship him. He is the only Truth. So you see, when I was talking to you about Heaven and Hell and saying that they're irrelevant, I wasn't joking. There is only one IS. One Truth. Nothing else matters.

Too many times, we're blinded by the side issues and we can't see the wood for the trees.

Bastage:

OK. I'll take that as you don't want to answer. But I'll also point out that what I had in mind was about as relevant to this topic as anything could be. I respect your wish not to tell me.

I could tell you, but not in the atmosphere that you guys are often too reactionary. I mean, what was all that joke supposed to mean in reading things into my rejoinders that I never hinted about? Of course, I joke with people sometimes, but I often shy away when people demonstrate that the atmosphere is not really for a discussion bit rather for something else.

Although I could answer, my declining is not to mean that I don't want to answer simple because I don't see how that should br brought into this thread.

Bastage:

You're right. I don't believe in God. I don't have to "believe". I know there is a God. You don't have to believe something you know.

Okay.

Bastage:

And I'll tell you why I know.
At the end of the day there is only one certainty apart from "I think, therefore I am" and that one certainty is God. God just IS. He is the only IS And that's why I worship him. He is the only Truth. So you see, when I was talking to you about Heaven and Hell and saying that they're irrelevant, I wasn't joking. There is only one IS. One Truth. Nothing else matters.

Too many times, we're blinded by the side issues and we can't see the wood for the trees.

Okay.

Cheers.

@huxley,

Thank you again.

huxley:

Now, supposing the 144000 were meant as those from the House of Israel. Does this number also represent ;

1) Jewish Jews

2) Jewish Christians

The Jewish population today can be estimated to be about 20 - 30 million. The number of Jews that have ever lived could be about 200 - 350 million.

Even on this revised calculation, the chances of any one Jew of being saved are miniscule.

I understand where you're coming from. But one thing I need to ask is this: how does the above establish your idea that ONLY 144,000 will go to heave?

pilgrim.1:

@huxley,

Thank you again.

I understand where you're coming from. But one thing I need to ask is this: how does the above establish your idea that ONLY 144,000 will go to heave?

Strictly speaking, it DOESN'T. What is the point of giving these numbers? How would a 1st/2nd century reader have understood this?

Was it meant to be understood by the contemporaries of the writer?

I could tell you, but not in the atmosphere that you guys are often too reactionary. I mean, what was all that joke supposed to mean in reading things into my rejoinders that I never hinted about?

It wasn't meant as a joke. Seriously. With the greatest and utmost respect to you pilgrim, you're afraid. Maybe you won't admit it here, but if you look deep, deep down into yourself, you'll see fear there. Believe me, I'm not trying to insult you. I'm going on what I see in your words here in Nairaland. That's what Heaven and Hell does to you.
And it's just so damn hard to kick the habit of being afraid. But if you can kick it? Try. You don't have to throw the concepts of Heaven and Hell away, but try redefining their relevence. Don't get me wrong, I'm human too. I don't pretend to be something I'm not. I feel fear. But the first step is recognising it for what it is.

You want to see God, right? Do you think that fear is going to let you see Him?

The saying goes that "We have nothing to fear but fear itself". Do you know how true those words are?

So when I said to you "Why do you think He died for you?" The answer I was looking for was "So I don't have to be afraid any more". When I said "Heaven and Hell are irrelevant" I was saying "Cast out Fear".
If you can do that, all you're left with is God.