vooks:

You said perfect refers to complete revelation of God in 'completed' scripture. At the point of writing Corinthians, we never had NT. so it is obvious to everyone reading that that you are talking about NT. if you were not, please clarify what you meant by that statement and I will duly apologize

Please talk for yourself and leave what everyone think out, you don't know what they think so don't assume. Moreover, the question you should have asked for clarity before inferring is what you are asking now.

Paul never sat the church down to teach them about the Torah, he never taught them about what Jesus did during his ministry because he was not there at the time. He birthed the church on the news of the death, burial and ascension(1 cor 15:1-4) of Christ. Even what he taught at the time was not officially documented so he needed faithful men to carry on the cause to avoid extinction.

2 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, [size=20pt]the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others [/size]also.

Paul hinted on the importance of the Old Testament and this include the four gospels for a broader understanding of God and how it all started.
Romans 15
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

So when I say 'perfect' refers to the complete revelation of God's will and ways, it isn't just the epistles, it is the entire bible because they intricately add and compliment the main and primary message to the church.

vooks:
Please stop reading your fantasies into the text. Did John the Baptist ever say 'thus saith the Lord'? What about Nahum? Who said 'thus saith the Lord' is the mark of OT prophets?

I am not saying they all have to say 'thus says the Lord', c'mon vooks. what I meant was that they had a subjective message from God which is hid to the rest. A prophet is a carrier of a message that is secretly revealed to him by God.

vooks, as I've read you in the past saying "...I need to look it up..." or something in that line or to that effect, I thought, you, like the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, would receive the below URL link with great eagerness and examine the contents & especially the commentaries (i.e. do justice to them)
- the answer(s) to your query(ies) is/are in it
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-12.htm

Have you at all managed to go over the link yet vooks?

PS: What caught my eyes in it all, partly are the areas about "glass(es)" - the clear and the dark glass(es) and then "the doctrines of grace and truth" etcetera

Stop skirting around your ignorance. Look at the highlighted in blue.
If maturity means God's word documented in a book, then ANYTHING BEFORE that is immaturity. At the point of writing Corinthians, they only had OT. And it follows that maturity was attained as soon as the entire NT was penned.

Next, we are full grown because we have the 'complete word'. This means BEFORE the 'complete word' we are not full grown. Again, the complete word is NT and OT. this means we grew up the moment NT was completed.

So perfect coming to you means New Testament writing. Why are you ashamed of your beliefs?

Please note that in the NT, we have two clear cases of prophets, Agabus and Philip's daughters. We don't know what the daughters said. We have Agabus in action. You have no grounds for claiming that Agabus was ANY DIFFERENT from other NT prophets because you don't have any NT prophet's message to compare it with Agabus'

Prophets don't necessarily carry something hid from the rest. Please study Agabus (Acts 21) He told Paul EXACTLY what others and Holy Spirit had told him

shdemidemi:


Maturity or growth does not mean we will all come to agree the same thing. Maturity of the faith means we have God's mind documented in a book for our collective edification.

The church had no bible like we have it today. There was nothing like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John at the time, people who were gifted at the time speak/prophesy to the church in line with what the Apostle had taught them. Today we have a complete guide, a sure word of prophecy collated and canonized from the works of those who God used as the foundation of christianity.

We are fully grown as a body today because we have the complete Word. Our growth has nothing to do with our individual or sectional volition to follow or not to follow the infallible Word.

shdemidemi:


Please talk for yourself and leave what everyone think out, you don't know what they think so don't assume. Moreover, the question you should have asked for clarity before inferring is what you are asking now.

Paul never sat the church down to teach them about the Torah, he never taught them about what Jesus did during his ministry because he was not there at the time. He birthed the church on the news of the death, burial and ascension(1 cor 15:1-4) of Christ. Even what he taught at the time was not officially documented so he needed faithful men to carry on the cause to avoid extinction.

2 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, [size=20pt]the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others [/size]also.

Paul hinted on the importance of the Old Testament and this include the four gospels for a broader understanding of God and how it all started.
Romans 15
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

So when I say 'perfect' refers to the complete revelation of God's will and ways, it isn't just the epistles, it is the entire bible because they intricately add and compliment the main and primary message to the church.





I am not saying they all have to say 'thus says the Lord', c'mon vooks. what I meant was that they had a subjective message from God which is hid to the rest. A prophet is a carrier of a message that is secretly revealed to him by God.

vooks, just shut your trap and keep your folly beliefs.^^^

I have got nothing more to say to you on this matter.

shdemidemi:
vooks, just shut your trap and keep your folly beliefs.^^^

I have got nothing more to say to you on this matter.

^^^ LOL, your patience got worn thin, has it?

You want to see the "itu" (i.e. confused.com) Femi Aribisala just scatter for ground on the now FP thread
https://www.nairaland.com/2022218/christians-must-choose-between-apostle

BabaGnoni:

LOL, your patience got worn thin, has it?

dopey arguments irritate me bro..I need more patience.

shdemidemi:
dopey arguments irritate me bro..I need more patience.

^^^

LOL, His grace is sufficient for you, what you need is a thick skin and body armour, one like the above

BabaGnoni:

^^

You want to see the "itun" (i.e. confused.com) Femi Aribisala just scatter for ground on the now FP thread

Bwahaahahaha... The man won't stop this travesty, would he?

If we are ever in doubt of God's patience and long suffering, I think this man's messages is a living testimony to the fact.

Typical of overheating puny brains.

shdemidemi:
vooks, just shut your trap and keep your folly beliefs.^^^

I have got nothing more to say to you on this matter.

Thank you my brother,
Am poring through the commentaries. Please allow me to respond as soon as am done.

BabaGnoni:
vooks, as I've read you in the past saying "...I need to look it up..." or something in that line or to that effect, I thought, you, like the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, would receive the below URL link with great eagerness and examine the contents & especially the commentaries (i.e. do justice to them)
- the answer(s) to your query(ies) is/are in it
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-12.htm

Have you at all managed to go over the link yet vooks?

PS: What caught my eyes in it all, partly are the areas about "glass(es)" - the clear and the dark glass(es) and then "the doctrines of grace and truth" etcetera

Just drop bloviating garbage and we will be cool. How do you call Agabus OT prophet?

shdemidemi:


dopey arguments irritate me bro..I need more patience.

SALIENT POINTS FROM R C SPROUL MESSAGE

1. Pentecostalism began at the break of the 20th century and was not part of main stream churches until a lot later.
2. The overarching belief of Pentecostalism was that there was a need for a second blessing after conversion - a baptism in the Holy Spirit. This is the view that need be corrected bc it essentially renders a low view of Pentecost to the church.
3. The significance of a baptism in the Holy Spirit is for empowerment for ministry.
4. We see the workings of the Spirit in selective individuals in the OT, particularly Moses.
5. The incidence that led to 70 elders receiving of Moses Spirit, Joshua's protestation and Moses desire that all of God's people will be prophets, is a prophetic pointer to the NT when God will pour his Spirit on all Christians.
6. This was further buttressed by Joel 2:28 and found fulfillment in Acts 2.
7. "And so the apostolic interpretation of the Day of Pentecost in the first instance was that it was a fulfillment of that prophetic utterance by Joel."
8. The Pentecost event was part of God's redemptive history for man and not a stereotyped event of first believing and then receive Holy Ghost later. It was a momentous event in church history and after that one, there was no other.
9. The book of Acts also follows a literal format according to Jesus command to the disciples to preach in Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and all the world. "Mini" Pentecost experiences also followed this order.
10. Also at this point in the redemptive history of the Jews, there were four distinct groups: the Jews, the God fearers, Samaritans and the gentiles.
11. So what we read in Acts is not one Pentecost but four that will affect these distinct groups one after the other.
12. Acts 2 records the Pentecost with the Jews. Acts 8 records Pentecost with the Samaritans, Acts 10 see Pentecost with the God fearers, Cornelius. And Acts 19 records Pentecost with the gentiles.
13. Here is the significance of these four events:

After he talked about different gifts that are distributed by the Holy Spirit, he says in verse 12 of 1 Cor12 “For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body being many are one body so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” So we are not many, we are not one member, but many. And here Paul again speaks of the universality of the Spirit’s empowering of every believer. That’s the significance of Pentecost.

13. Pentecost occurred to all four to point to the unity of faith regardless of race.
14. A point further buttressed by Ephesians 2:14-22.
15. Pentecostals give a low view of Pentecost when they limit it to a second blessing. The true implication of Pentecost was unity of faith regardless of race.

BabaGnoni:

You want to see the "itu" (i.e. confused.com) Femi Aribisala just scatter for ground on the now FP thread
https://www.nairaland.com/2022218/christians-must-choose-between-apostle

Aribasala has finally lost it.

WinsomeX:


Aribasala has finally lost it.

hmmm,we are on same page.that is something to celebrate o

[size=16pt]CALVIN'S CRITIQUE OF CHARISMATIC CALVANISTS by Steve Lawson[/size]
I was going to do this by video but I decided to come in person.  So…I don’t do well flat.  No, it’s a privilege to be here, I want to thank Dr. John MacArthur and the ministry at Grace To You which has had a significant influence on my life over the years, for the opportunity to be able to minister at this conference.

I think in many ways I have been shaped in how to preach by listening to the radio, listening to Grace to You, and listening to John MacArthur in the formative years of my ministry as a young man coming out of seminary at 10:30 there in Little Rock, Arkansas, listening to Grace to You day after day after day, listening how the Word of God is opened up by Dr. MacArthur, his explanation, cross references, word studies, historical back ground, the implication of the text, the outlining of the passage, the introductions, etc.  I am very much a product of Grace to You and I’m so thankful for its extended ministry around the world.

I was searching for a text from which to speak at this conference.  I will also speak tomorrow night.  And I emailed the staff at Grace to You and said, “Give me some help. Give me some direction as to what you think would most hit the target.  I’ve only got two silver bullets to fire at this conference, I don’t have any just to fire up into the sky and waste and not hit a target.  Well what two silver bullets would you have me fire such that you who have come to this conference would be most helped?”

And for the message for this afternoon, it came back, “Would I speak on Calvin’s Critique of the Charismatic Calvinists?”  Calvin’s critique, what would John Calvin have to say about the present-day Calvinist who are open but cautious, or who do fully embrace the Charismatic Movement to one degree or another and yet are Calvinistic?

Those of us who are Reformed in our theology, are enormously grateful for the revival of Reformed Theology that has swept through the body of Christ over these last years.  In fact, Time Magazine, a couple of years ago, posted the top ten ideas that are changing the world right now.  And high on that list it was shocking to see the New Calvinism that even the world has to acknowledge that there is a resurgence of Calvinistic Reformed theology that is taking place. In fact, Dr. MacArthur has said, “If you’re not reformed right now, you are basically irrelevant.”  I would add to that, “You’re wrong.”  But there has been a ground swell and it has been spread far and wide to this Reformed resurgence to mainline denominations, to independent churches, to Baptist churches, and there’s been a host of gifted teachers who have led this parade.  Martyn Lloyd-Jones, J.I. Packer, James Montgomery Boice, R.C. Sproul, John Piper and our host for this conference, John MacArthur has really, these men have been standard bearers in this line of godly men and this generation and we all have been under the influence of these men, if not all of these men.  And highly visible ministries have carried this torch of Reformed truth from Grace to You, to Ligonier Ministries, Desiring God, Nine Marks.  And then other publishing houses, the Banner of Truth, Crossway, Presbyterian and Reformed, Reformation Heritage, Reformation Trust.  And the result has been a phenomenon in our days that has been identified as young, restless and reformed.  In fact, there is a book that is entitled Young Restless and Reformed, and this generation is now young people in their twenties and in their thirties, they are wide-eyed to a Calvinistic world view and to a Reformed theology proper, and soteriology, and Christology, and pneumatology. 

[b]And, however, with this resurgence, there has come a strange merging of two streams into one river.  One stream is the flow of historic, biblical Calvinism and the other is an unexpected tributary, that of Calvinistic theology in spiritual experience. And the result is a new high bred, a strange high-bred known as the Charismatic Calvinist that holds strong reformed soteriology in one hand, but Calvinistic experiences and worship styles in the other hands. And this one surging river now has a swift current that has pulled in from far and wide an entire generation of many people who are now Reformed but speaking in tongues, having prophetic utterances, claiming new revelations, having supposedly words of knowledge and miraculous healings.  The leader of one popular Reformed ministry, writes, “I start…I start getting prophetic dreams. God is showing me the future.  A gift of discernment kind of comes to the fore for me, not all the time, but I can see someone and I just know their story.  Upon occasion when I get up to preach, I can see just like a screen in front of me and I see someone get raped, or abused, and then I will track them down and say, ‘Look, I’ve had this vision, let me tell you about it.’”  He claims it’s all true.

These theological positions of merging Reformed Theology with Charismatic theology have gone virtually ignored and unaddressed within the Reformed community.  And we have welcomed these men without fully addressing their position regarding the Holy Spirit.  I believe that there is none better to address these Charismatic Calvinists than John Calvin himself.[/b]

So what I want to do is I want to first begin with the crisis that Calvin faced because Calvin faced a Charismatic crisis in his own day of people who were claiming to have dreams and visions and speaking new revelations. And then I want to see how Calvin addressed it in his own day from his own commentaries from his institutes but also a treatise that he wrote, the treatise against the Libertines.

So let’s begin with the crisis Calvin faced. There’s nothing new under the sun, and the crisis that we are facing this day that has already been outlined by Dr. MacArthur is a crisis much like what John Calvin and the Reformers faced in the sixteenth century.  As the leading Reformer, whatever faced the church, confronted John Calvin because John Calvin was the chief Reformer.  He had the dominant voice.  People looked to Calvin for his addressing issues. And so in his own Geneva ministry, Calvin faced the Charismatic issue with two separate groups.  One is the Anabaptists, the other is the Libertines.  And I want to talk just for a second about these two groups.

continued

The Anabaptist is a complex, wide, divergence of many different sub-groups. Some of them very good. As some of them would hold to truths just like you and I hold to that the church should be comprised of regenerated believers in Jesus Christ, that there should be a separation between church and state, that baptism is for believers, adult baptism. They got many things right but they got many things wrong as well.  And there were elements of the Anabaptist group that began to drift into an inner word and an inner witness of the Holy Spirit, and they began to seek dreams and visions and ecstatic experiences and private revelations, emotional accesses, mystical encounters, prophetic manifestations, physical contortions and miraculous accounts.  And John Calvin would have to address this in his own day.

And then there were the Libertines. [b]The Libertines were perhaps under the umbrella, the broad umbrella of the Anabaptists but as their name indicates, the Libertines were antinomians.  They abused any Christian liberty, suffice to say for the most part, I would venture to say they were unconverted and did not know the Lord.  But they removed all restrictions from what is right and wrong and Calvin called them a sec ton, or 100 times more dangerous than the Roman Catholic Church itself.  They were led by fleshly impulses and new revelations. They believe the Holy Spirit is addressing, or is adding new revelation to the Scripture. And they grew discontent with the Bible itself and with the simplicity of the gospel.

And so because of their setting aside the Scripture, and wanting to follow the inner impulses that they believed was the Holy Spirit, they lived in blatant antinomianism which simply means they were against the law or any commandments of God that would regulate their Christian life. They lived in immorality, to put it bluntly.  They lived in open licentiousness.  And they withdrew distinctions between good and bad. They were known for their…their vulgarities. They were known for their crassness, for their crudeness, for their earthiness, for their…for their profanity. They gloried in being raw in their so-called Christianity. Some of their leaders among the Libertines dressed in torn robes and wanted a grunge look.  I feel like I just stepped on something.[/b]

It was kind of a hyper, spiritual, medieval reach back look. They wanted an easy moral path, without having to fight against sin, without having to resist temptation, without having to pursue holiness.  And John Calvin was just the man to begin to speak to this particular issue.  The other Reformers, they’re in Switzerland, began to write to…I almost said MacArthur…to, yeah, well him, too, “Charismatic Chaos, the 1536 edition…no, they began to write to John Calvin and Calvin was just the man.

I know when you’re laughing with me and when you’re laughing at me, okay?  How are we going to have a relationship when you’re…all right.

[b]It was Benjamin Breckenridge Warfield who identified Calvin as quote: “The theologian of the Holy Spirit,” close quote.  For all of our thinking about Calvin of election and predestination and the eternal decree of God and the death of Christ, he is known most as “The Theologian of the Holy Spirit.”  And Warfield, the great Princetonian scholar said, “It is probably that Calvin’s greatest contribution to theological science lies in the rich development in which he was the first to give to the doctrine of the work of the Holy Spirit.”

At the institutes, referring to his magnum opus, the institutes of the Christian religion, Warfield writes, “The institutes is just a treatise on the work of God the Holy Spirit and making God scathingly known to sinful man.”  And so, what may surprise us is the Charismatic crisis and chaos today is nothing new and it was prevalent in abuses and accesses in the sixteenth century, as we will talk about tomorrow night, also in the seventeenth century with the Puritans with what they were confronted with.[/b]

So John Calvin was not silent on the abuse of the ministry of the Holy Spirit.  Many of today’s Reformed leaders who are open to Charismatic practices would do well to sit at the feet of Calvin and to be taught by him.

I want to now come to the correction that Calvin issued.  Towering over the centuries of church history, John Calvin stands as THE one most imminent figure of monumental importance.  He was so strong that Philipp Melanchthon called him simply THE theologian, meaning he was THE theologian God gave to the church.  He was a theological genius behind the Reformation.  Philip Shaff(?) writes, “Calvin was an exegetical genius of the first order.  His commentaries are unsurpassed for originality, depth, perspicuity, soundness and permanent value.  Calvin was the king of the commentators.” 

John Murray, former professor and president of Westminster Seminary succinctly stated, “Calvin was the exegete, he was THE exegete of the Reformation and in the first rank of biblical exegetes of all time.”  Now what would be John Calvin’s critique of this new high-bred, the Charismatic Calvinist?

What I want to do is walk through his commentaries with you, and I want to walk through his institutes.  And I want to look at his treatise to the Libertines, and the screen is down behind me and it…I came to the realization it would be more helpful to you if I could put some of these quotes visually up before you as I read them. But I want to address these one issue at a time. 

I want to begin with the office of Apostle.  In Calvin’s commentaries on Matthew 10 and verse 1, Calvin very clearly states that the office of Apostle was a temporary office, restricted to the first century.  It is not a perpetual or continual office.

Now some of the claims being made today by Calvinistic Charismatics is that they are Apostles and that they continue in an Apostleship and that simply is not true.  God gave the Apostles to the church in order that they would be the foundation for the church, that the church would be built upon them, but you only lay the foundation one time in a building project, and that is at the very beginning. And the entire rest of the edifice rests upon that foundation.  You don’t re-lay the foundation at the second floor and then the third floor, and then the fifth floor, and then put another foundation for the roof.  No, it’s only laid one time, at the beginning.  And Calvin understood that and that was the role of the Apostle.  And he understood that God gave the gift of miracles to the Apostles to authenticate them as unique messengers from God who were bringing revelation directly from God and that they had authority over the church by virtue of this revelation that they were bringing.  That’s why Paul begins his letters, “Paul, an Apostle of Christ Jesus,” so that they will know that what is recorded in this letter has divine apostolic authority over all churches in all places in all times.

continued:

So Calvin…thank you for that one clap…(laughter)…no, no, no, no, no.  I know when you’re just making up, okay?  Okay.  That was one of my students wanting a better grade.

[b]So Matthew 10, verse 1, John Calvin…I want you to hear this in Calvin’s own words.  I trust it’s being or will be put up, maybe you’ll have a word of knowledge here in a moment and all right, I’m going to read it anyway.  “The calling of the apostles is here described to us, it is proper to observe, however, that Jesus is not as He…does not speak of perpetual Apostleship but only of temporary preaching.”  And then he goes on to describe the place of miracles as seals upon the doctrine of the Apostles.  So Calvin early on in his Harmony of the Gospels, and by the way, he died preaching a harmony of the gospels, was convinced that the Apostle, the office thereof, was restricted to the first century and he will argue, therefore miracles are restricted to the first century as validations of the new message that they are bringing.  Now Calvin would address the receiving of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2, and verse 38, in his commentaries.  He writes, “We do not receive it…referring to the gift of the Spirit…we do not receive it that we may speak with tongues, that we may be prophets, that we may cure the sick, that we may work miracles.  Yet it is given us for a better use that we may believe with the heart and a righteousness and that our tongues may be framed unto true confession.

His argument is, we have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the gift of the Holy Spirit, to speak in tongues, we have been given it that the one tongue we have will confess that Jesus is Lord.  (Amen-applause)  And so he lays his case. We come to the gift of miracles which he believes is a ceased gift and from the outset of Calvin’s public ministry, he believed that the gift of miracles had ceased during the apostolic age.  In his Institutes, the 1536 edition, and I mention that edition.  There were five versions of Calvin’s Institutes the last being 1559.  His 1536 was his first edition and what is interesting is, he has only been a Christian for no more than two years.  He is 26 years old and he writes his Magnum Opus, he was a giant walking the land.[/b]

And as he writes in his first Institutes, he writes those miraculous powers and manifest workings which were dispensed by the laying on of hands have ceased.  He was a cessationist. And they have rightly lasted only for a time, for it was fitting that the new preaching of the gospel and the new Kingdom of Christ should be illuminated and magnified by unheard of and extraordinary miracles.  When the Lord ceased from these, he did not utterly forsake His church, but declared that the magnificence of His Kingdom and the dignity of His Word had been excellently enough disclosed.

So, like a rocket ship being launched off the launching pad, and then it drops the bottom engine and goes through space more effortlessly, he is arguing that the gift of miracles and these extraordinary sign gifts were a part of the rocket launch of the church in the first century. But once it cleared the earth’s atmosphere, it dropped that engine and now there’s the primacy of the written Word of God and the centrality of the preaching of that written Word.  That’s at the beginning of Calvin’s ministry.

We fast forward to the end to his last version, or edition of the Institutes in his prefacatory address, which means his preface at the beginning, he wrote five years before his death.  [b]He writes, “In demanding miracles of us,” referring to Rome, and referring to other aberrant groups, fringe groups, “they act dishonestly, for we’re not forging some new gospel, but are retaining that very gospel whose truth all the miracles that Jesus Christ and His disciples ever wrought serve to conform.”

Now understand Calvin’s thinking on this.  These miracles accompanied the unveiling of the Musterion that Dr. Sproul spoke of, the unveiling of the mystery of Christ.  And once that was made known, there was no further need for miracles to confirm the uniqueness of this revelation. And what Calvin will argue, if you expect me to perform miracles or any of the Reformers to be in the healing ministry or the speaking in tongues ministry, we would have to come up with an entirely new gospel.  We would have to have an entirely new revelation from God otherwise there will be no spectacular display because we have the same old message.  And that same old message is the power of God unto salvation in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Calvin said, “They allege miracles…in the last sentence…which can disturb a mind otherwise at rest.” They are so foolish and ridiculous, so vain and false.  He comes in his commentaries to Mark 16 and verse 17, that portion at the end of Mark’s gospel that most of us do not believe were a part of the original text of Scripture and Calvin did not have the advantage that we now have, 500 years later, of greater textual criticism, but what is important is what Calvin has to say about the issues that are found in Mark 16 and verse 17 which reads, “These signs will accompany those who have believed they will speak with new tongues.”

This is what Calvin says in explaining that.  Although Christ does not expressly say whether He intends this gift, referring to miracle working, to be temporary or to remain perpetually in His church, yet it is more probably that miracles were promised only for a time in order to give luster to the gospel while it is new…while it was new and in a state of obscurity.  I think that the true design for which miracles were appointed was that nothing which was necessary for providing the doctrine of the gospel should be wanting at its commencement.  Notice his words. They’re all talking about at the beginning, at the commencement, only for a while, only for a time.  He understood that they were bestowed by the Holy Spirit on the church only at the commencement of the building of the church.  At the end of his quote, “Yet those who came after them that they might not follow it to be suppose that they were entirely destitute of miracles were led by foolish aberrance or ambition to forge for themselves miracles which had no reality.  Calvin is saying the claims that they are making for miracles have no reality to them whatsoever, that they are just foolishness.[/b]

He goes on to say in this same text in Mark 16 and verse 17, “Thus…referring to these who are claiming among the Anabaptists, among the Libertines, that they could perform miracles…thus was the door open for the impostors of Satan.”  In other words, a door is swung open for all kinds of counterfeit doctrines and counterfeit experiences.

continued:

Not only that delusions might be substituted for truth, but that under the pretense of miracles, the simple might be led astray from the true faith.  It is silly. That which is advanced by those who object to our doctrine, that it wants the aid of miracles.  Calvin just writes it off as silliness. And he would say to those Reformed leaders today who are dabbling in Charismatic experiences and doctrine, he would say to them, “You are opening Pandora’s Box for your church and for those who are following your ministry. And so oftentimes a leader will go running up to the edge of a cliff and stop and those who are following will just keep on running over the edge of the cliff to their destruction. And Calvin is sending a sobering warning that the door of Satan’s delusions are open as you are distracting people from the truth and they are now being caught up in that which is not authored by the Holy Spirit.

[b]In Acts 14 and verse 3, Calvin gives very specific teaching on this.  Acts 14:3 says, “The Lord was granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands. In Calvin’s commentary, Calvin says, “The Lord gave witness to the gospel in miracles for it shows the true use of miracles.”  He says that’s the true use.  It was to bring validation and authentication to the message that was being brought by the apostolic messengers.  He says, “Unless they be drawn unto abuse and corruption, God does never suffer them to be separated from His Word.”

Now that’s a key sentence and he will develop it more fully in just a moment, but here is Calvin’s brilliant theological mind at work. Calvin says that the Word of God, the written Word of God, and the Spirit of God can never be separated.  What the Holy Spirit is doing in the world, He is always doing it in mutual bond with the written Word of God.  You will never have the Holy Spirit over here doing a work independent of the written Word of God. The Holy Spirit…(applause)…the Holy Spirit who is the author of the Word of God, the Holy Spirit who is the teacher of the Word of God is the one who works in perfect partnership with the very word that He Himself has authored.  And so Calvin says, “Unless they be drawn unto abuse and corruption, God does never suffer them to be separated from His Word,” and the “them” refers to the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit in Acts 14.  For if miracles were wrought at any time without His Word, first it was very seldom, second, very small fruit. [/b]

Benjamin Warfield, just to quote him one other time, says, “It is reasonable to ask miracles…says Calvin…or to find them where there is no new gospel.   By as much as the one gospel suffices for all lands and all peoples and all times.”

What Warfield is saying, Calvin understood that what God confirmed in the first century in Jerusalem, in Judea, in Samaria and then in the Gentile world as Dr. Sproul so wonderfully laid out for us, it is sufficient now for all times, all lands, all places and all generations.  The gospel does not need to be re…re validated.

[b]Concerning speaking in tongues, Calvin states very clearly that the gift of tongues has ceased in the first century.  Writing in his commentary on Acts 10 and verse 44, Calvin writes, “The gift of tongues and other such like things are ceased long ago in the church. But the Spirit of understanding and of regeneration is a force and shall always be a force.”

What he is saying is that the Holy Spirit in the first century gave the gift of tongues, that has long since ceased, but the Holy Spirit is still at work in the world through the new birth.  And now Calvin gives his greatest attention to the issue of receiving new revelation, of receiving prophecies. And in Isaiah 30 verse 1 in his commentaries, Calvin writes, “Let it be observed that two things are here connected…the Word and the Spirit of God…in opposition to the fanatics who aim at oracles and hidden revelations—that means private…private revelations without the Word, referring to the written Word.”  What Calvin is saying, God has joined together the Spirit and the Word, the fanatics, referring to the Anabaptists and the Libertines, they separate the Spirit and the Word and, in fact, they elevate the Spirit above the Word.  In fact, I’ve been in churches where if the pastor gets into the pulpit and says, “Take your Bibles and turn with me to Matthew, Mark, Luke or John,” the people are almost yawning.  But if he gets in the pulpit and says, “You know, as I was driving to church today, God spoke to me,” there can’t be enough mole skins open and people want to write it down.  And Calvin says no, that is not how God works in His church and in this world, in this hour of redemptive history.  And his commentary on Acts 21 verse 9, the same issue of revelations, Calvin says, “By this means—referring to revelatory prophecy…let me make this footnote. Calvin understands prophecy in two levels, as John MacArthur does, that there is foretelling, and there is forth telling.  Forth telling would be the gift of preaching, proclaiming what is already been revealed in Scripture, but foretelling is receiving new revelation.[/b]

Now Calvin says, “By this means—referring to revelatory prophecy—the Lord meant to beautify the first beginnings of the gospel, when he raised up men and women to foretell things to come.  Prophecies had now almost ceased, referring to the end of the Old Testament economy, 400 years before the coming of Christ.  Prophecies had now almost ceased many years among the Jews to the end, they might be more attentive and desirous to hear the new voice of the gospel, it—revelatory prophecy—should last but for a short time.  That’s a reference to the first century.  Lest the faithful should always wait for some farther thing.

In other words, if you tell people revelation is still being given, they’re going to be discontent with Romans and the gospel of John, they want what is new. And Calvin is saying if it’s new, it’s not true.  Calvin goes on to say, “It is revelatory prophecy should last but for a short time lest the faithful should always wait for some farther thing, or lest the curious wits might have occasion given to seek or invent some new thing every now and then, for we know that when that ability and skill was taken away, there was not withstanding many brain-sick fellows who did boast that they were prophets.”  Calvin says that’s what they are.  They’re just brain sick.

God, by taking away prophecies, he means new revelation, did testify that the end in perfection was present in Christ.  That’s a very insightful sentence because what Calvin is arguing is that the fullness of revelation that God has for His church came in and through the Lord Jesus Christ and the disciples whom He sent out to be His Apostles and the fullness of what God wants us to know has now been given to us.  And we know have the faith once and for all delivered to the saints.

[b]In Romans 12 and verse 6, as he continues to write on this, prophecy at this day in the Christian church is hardly anything else than the right understanding of Scripture and the peculiar faculty of explaining it. That’s the forth-telling, the gift of preaching, to understand the Scripture and to explain it.  Inasmuch as all the ancient prophecies and all the oracles of God have been completed in Christ and in His gospel.  He sees Christ, the revelation that came through Christ and His Apostles as the consummation of revelation that God has for His church. And it does not appear that Paul intended here to mention those miraculous graces by which Christ had first rendered illustrious His gospel, but on the contrary, we find that He refers only to ordinary gifts such as were to continual perpetuate. So he’s saying, ordinary spiritual gifts like helps and administration and teaching and mercy and things like that, those will continue throughout the church, the church age.  But not these miraculous gifts.[/b]

BabaGnoni:
^^^ LOL, your patience got worn thin, has it?

You want to see the "itu" (i.e. confused.com) Femi Aribisala just scatter for ground on the now FP thread
https://www.nairaland.com/2022218/christians-must-choose-between-apostle

shdemidemi:
Bwahaahahaha... The man won't stop this travesty, would he?

If we are ever in doubt of God's patience and long suffering, I think this man's messages is a living testimony to the fact.

WinsomeX:
Aribasala has finally lost it.

Gombs:
hmmm,we are on same page.that is something to celebrate o

With Femi Aribisala, just eat the fish and spit out the bones
http://www.femiaribisala.com/articles-listing

Femi Aribisala most times, or has he occasionally does, can be on point with some remarkable articles
(e.g. Money Is Not Valuable, Seeing God's Kingdom, The Keys Of The Kingdom of Heaven, The Gospel Of Tithes And Offerings, "Daddy G.O." Pastors Are Thieves And Robbers, Pastors Are Jesus Killers, Loving God And Hating My Wife etcetera)
but when he decides to play confused, he turns into a nightmare, and a monstrosity
and whenever he decides to be controversial, he switches into a demagogue and become a minefield, dangerous

continued:

He will say the same in Hebrews 1 verses 1 and 2, “When God speaks at the last times He intimates that there is no longer any reason to expect any new revelation.  For it was not a Word in part that Christ brought but the final conclusion.”  He is saying, “If you expect new revelation from God, you are saying that what Jesus brought was only a partial message, that there is something lacking in the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ. And what Jesus commanded His Apostles to teach all nations that there were holes in that message that now need to be filled up.”  That would be the only conclusion to which you could come.  And Calvin says no.  There was the full revelation given in His Son who came as the greatest prophet, the greatest expositor who spoke all the words that the Father gave Him to speak and He taught them to His disciples and He commissioned them out and there is nothing else to be said.

[b]When we come to Calvin’s Institutes under this same subject, in book 1 chapter 9, section 1, Calvin has a section that he calls, “The fanatics wrongly appeal to the Holy Spirit.”  And Calvin calls them spiritual light weights, those who having forsaken Scripture.  And the reason they forsake Scripture is because all they want is for God to tell me what I need to know. They don’t want to study, they don’t want to dig it out. They don’t want to exposit the Word of God and put their mind to it and be diligent to present themselves unto God as a workman who does not be ashamed. They’re not willing to put in the heavy lifting. They simply want God to just zap them and give them what needs to be said.  Those who have forsaken Scripture imagine some way or other of reaching God ought to be thought of not so much gripped by error as being carried away with frenzy, for of light certain giddy men, referring to the Libertines, and giddy men are just those who do not take God and His Word seriously, have arisen, who have great haughtiness.  And the reason they have haughtiness is they will not put themselves under the perfection of the Word of God, they want to be out from under the Word of God so that they can say and do their own thing.  Exalting the teaching office of the Spirit, they despise all reading and laugh at the simplicity of those who as they express it still followed the dead in killing letter.

Two sections later in this same part of his institutes, is really the most significant quote that Calvin has on this subject.  It’s a section entitled, “Word and Spirit belong inseparably together.”  If you take anything from what Calvin is saying, take this.  By a kind of mutual bond, the Lord has joined together the certainty of His Word and of His Spirit so that the perfect religion of the Word may abide in our minds when the Spirit shines and that we in turn may embrace the Spirit with no fear of being deceived, when we recognize Him in His own image, namely in the Word.  He is saying that God sent the Spirit to conform…to confirm His Word by miracles and to produce the written Word within us and God has nothing further to say.[/b]

In book 2 he says, “This, however, remains certain the perfect doctrine He has brought has made an end to all prophecies,” referring to forth-telling a new revelation.  All those then who are not content with the gospel, patch it with something extraneous to it, distract from Christ’s authority, it is not lawful to go beyond the simplicity of the gospel.  He is saying they go beyond the gospel.

There’s many other quotes and I think time would be best served for me to come to what I want to say in conclusion.  I think the point has been established.  [b]I would refer you to his treatise against the Anabaptists, in his treaties against the Libertines in which Calvin has excoriating words and one might ask, “Well, why can’t you just leave the Libertines alone?  Why do you have to make a publish issue out of this?  Why can’t you just leave the Anabaptists alone?”

And Calvin said, “Even a dog barks if he sees someone assault his master.”  (Applause)  He said, “How could I be silent if God’s truth is assailed?  He had to speak out.  He had to cast his influence and spread it over the church at large so the spiritual health of the church would be preserved and protected.

Well I think you understand what Calvin had to say, that his critique of the Charismatic abuses in his day, to summarize, in his own words, is foolish, ridiculous, vain and false.  It has no reality.  It opens doors for the impostures of Satan.  It substitutes truth for delusions.  It leads the simple astray from the truth. It is silly. It separates the mutual bond of the Spirit and the Word.  It is deadly doting’s.  It invents an erroneous and wandering spirit in people. It goes beyond the Word of God. It arouses God’s wrath, he says, and provokes him and leads people beyond the limits of Scripture to follow their own imaginations.  For Calvin, a Charismatic Calvinist is an oxymoron, is a contradiction in terms like freezer burn, jumbo shrimp, you like…dead Live Oak, Baptist scholar (laughter) saved Methodist, sober…no, never mind.[/b]

All right, let me bring this to conclusion.  I want to end with convictions Calvin asserted, and I want to leave you with three convictions.  I just gave you a mass of quotations and I probably gave you more information and more readings than you were able to take in. But I want to end this in a very simple way.

[b]What would Calvin say to this present generation?  And the answer to that is the same that he has already said to his own generation.  Number one, the exclusivity of biblical authority. It all boils down to this.  Understand this.  Either there is only one stream of revelation and that is the Bible, or there are two streams of revelation, that would be the Bible and these miraculous gifts. Either it is sola scriptura, only one stream of revelation, or there are two streams and Calvin faced it on both sides.  On the one hand with the Catholics, they wanted two streams…they wanted the written Word of God and they wanted their church tradition and ecclesiastical councils and Papal authority. The Catholics had two streams of revelation on one side, they Charismatics had two streams of revelation on the other side, there is the written Word of God and the gift of prophecy, and speaking in tongues, and word of knowledge, and, and, and, and.  And Calvin said, “No, there is only one stream of revelation for his church through the church age, after the first century, and it is sola scriptura, it is the written Word of God.  (applause)[/b]

Calvin asserted, “We ought to a stain that substantial Word, the source of all revelations.  It is the highest value to ask nothing beyond the Word of God.  God begets and multiplies His church only by the means of His written Word.  That’s the first thing Calvin would say today to the Charismatic Calvinists.  There are not two streams of revelation.  There is only one and it is the written Word of God.

Second, he would say to this generation, the priority of biblical preaching.  Calvin understood to whatever extent one looks to two streams of revelation.  There is a diminishing of the pulpit. Calvin believed that only one stream of revelation, the Bible, mandates biblical preaching.  However he discerned that two streams deludes biblical preaching.  Two streams of revelation…that is one’s position, it waters down biblical preaching. It washes away biblical preaching.  It erodes biblical preaching. It submerges biblical preaching.  There will only be the priority of biblical, expository preaching in the fullest sense when one is committed that there is only one stream by which revelation is coming to us and it is in the written Word of God.

concluded:

And third, and finally, Calvin would say to this present generation of Charismatic Calvinists, he would say to them the unity of Spirit and Word. We’ve already talked about this.  But Calvin was convinced that only one stream of revelation which is the Bible, joins together the Spirit and the Word in their tightest bond and in their most powerful working in the world.  Two streams of revelation severs and separates Word from Spirit and Spirit from Word.  Two streams of revelation divides and distances the Word from the Spirit and the Spirit from the Word.  It drives a wedge between them.  But the Spirit is at work only where the written Word of God is being taught, is being preached, is being counseled, it is being shared, is being disseminated, the Spirit works through the written Word.

This is what John Calvin has said and continues to speak through his written Word.  I do believe that Calvin towers over church history as the most substantial theologian that has been given to the church, its most powerful influence and we would do well to hear from our older brother.  I will let John Calvin have the final word.

“Let the pastors boldly dare all things by the written Word of God by which they are constituted administrators.  Let them constrain all the power, glory and excellence of the world to give place to and to obey the divine majesty of this Word. Let them enjoin everyone by it, from the highest to the lowest.  Let them edify the body of Christ.  Let them devastate Satan’s reign.  Let them pasture the sheep.  Let them kill the wolves, instruct and exhort the rebellious.  Let them bind and loose, let them thunder, let them lightning, but let them do all things in accordance to the Word of God.  (Applause)  If we are to see a new Reformation in this day, if we are to see this resurgence of reformed truth that has now begun in these last decades, continue to expand its borders and push out its fences into greater influence in the church and in the world, we must be exclusively committed to the written Word of God.  (Applause)   Amen.

Let us close in a word of prayer.

Our Father in heaven, how we thank You for this treasure of Your written Word that You have given to us. We thank You for the full record of it from Genesis to Revelation, the 66 books of the canon of Scripture breathed out by You through human authors some 40-plus human authors on three different continents in three different languages from all walks of life, and yet You so perfectly presided over this entire process that there is one body of truth, that there is one way of salvation, that there is one plan for the ages, that there is one standard for morality, that there are no contradictions in Your Word, that it is the pure, unvarnished, unadulterated truth to us and to all who hear it.  I pray that You would set a flame our one tongue that we might confess Christ, preach Christ, exalt Christ and magnify Christ in this world.  And I pray, God, that You would continue the work that You have begun in these days. We pray this in the name of Jesus Christ, our sovereign Lord and Savior. 

Amen.

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/TM13-4/calvins-critique-of-charismatic-calvinists-steve-lawson

Winsomex,
This guy's basic point is Calvin was a cessassionist and he'd do treatises on charismatic Calvinists the same way he did one on the Libertines as he'd regard them as perverting the truth.

Is it possible to get us Calvin's commentary on the cessationism 'proof texts' such as 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? Am interested in seeing if John Calvin believed that Paul was talking about the NT Canon here.

Thanks bro

vooks:
Winsomex,
This guy's basic point is Calvin was a cessassionist and he'd do treatises on charismatic Calvinists the same way he did one on the Libertines as he'd regard them as perverting the truth.
Is it possible to get us Calvin's commentary on the cessationism 'proof texts' such as 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? Am interested in seeing if John Calvin believed that Paul was talking about the NT Canon here.
Thanks bro

With the help of Google, I came across this text of Calvin on 1 Cor 13:

www.biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/1_corinthians/13.htm

I am sure their are others that might be more elaborate.

What Calvin said on Charismata is not what is in dispute in the text by Lawson; Lawson was only trying to ask the true disciples of Calvin to be faithful to John Calvin's thinking all round.

While the Strange Fire Conference focused on the ills of the Charismatic movement, their main audience were not Pentecostals, who will not listen to them anyway; but fellow Reformed Calvinist and Evangelicals. They were saying to their fellow colleagues, like John Piper and Wayne Grudem, if you truly call yourselves Calvinist, see what Calvin said of the Charismatics and tell us how it lines up with your thinking.

Calvin's position, like the cessationist, was that God's Holy Spirit will follow and bring Christlike result from a faithful adherence to and teaching of God's word, the bible. The Word of God is the centrality of the Christian faith and not the Holy Spirit, though the Spirit will always accompany the Word. This extends to the point that manifestations of spiritual phenumenons are not proof of the working of the Holy Spirit since faith in the word of God does not necessarily translate to what we must see.

Cessationism is basically saying that the gift of apostles and prophet with accompanying gifts of revelations has ceased since there is no more need to add to scriptures.

However, my personal deviation from what I might call extreme cessationism is that though the canon of scripture is complete, apostles and prophets are no more, revelatory gifts have ceased; BUT it might please God to reach humanity with the supernatural whenever he pleases. A belief in cessationism should not shut him out, rather their should be liberty for such expression of the Spirit, though with God's people judging it according to scriptures. Now, no matter how accurate the revelation or real the miracle, these are simply expressions of God's goodness through fallible men. They are not additions to scriptures and they are not the apostolic gifts, which were perfect, consistent and verifiable.

My cessationism says God has ceased to work as he worked through the apostles but a sovereign God has perfect liberty to do whatever he pleases in his church and in his world, and may God grant we recognize his works in the midst of a perverse generation.

Thank you,
The prophetic gift both in NT and OT was never primarily used for recording scriptures. What I cant wrap around my head is why these gifts are automatically deemed to fly in the face of Sola Scriptura doctrine. Can't I operate revelatory gifts without attempting to add to the canon?
It appears like a scare tactic. You see a continuist and you shout, 'hey, he is adding to the canon!'

Look at Agabus prophecy over Paul and draught. Very specific messages which are inspired and are in no way adding to the canon.

WinsomeX:


With the help of Google, I came across this text of Calvin on 1 Cor 13:

www.biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/1_corinthians/13.htm

I am sure their are others that might be more elaborate.

What Calvin said on Charismata is not what is in dispute in the text by Lawson; Lawson was only trying to ask the true disciples of Calvin to be faithful to John Calvin's thinking all round.

While the Strange Fire Conference focused on the ills of the Charismatic movement, their main audience were not Pentecostals, who will not listen to them anyway; but fellow Reformed Calvinist and Evangelicals. They were saying to their fellow colleagues, like John Piper and Wayne Grudem, if you truly call yourselves Calvinist, see what Calvin said of the Charismatics and tell us how it lines up with your thinking.

Calvin's position, like the cessationist, was that God's Holy Spirit will follow and bring Christlike result from a faithful adherence to and teaching of God's word, the bible. The Word of God is the centrality of the Christian faith and not the Holy Spirit, though the Spirit will always accompany the Word. This extends to the point that manifestations of spiritual phenumenons are not proof of the working of the Holy Spirit since faith in the word of God does not necessarily translate to what we must see.

Cessationism is basically saying that the gift of apostles and prophet with accompanying gifts of revelations has ceased since there is no more need to add to scriptures.

However, my personal deviation from what I might call extreme cessationism is that though the canon of scripture is complete, apostles and prophets are no more, revelatory gifts have ceased; BUT it might please God to reach humanity with the supernatural whenever he pleases. A belief in cessationism should not shut him out, rather their should be liberty for such expression of the Spirit, though with God's people judging it according to scriptures. Now, no matter how accurate the revelation or real the miracle, these are simply expressions of God's goodness through fallible men. They are not additions to scriptures and they are not the apostolic gifts, which were perfect, consistent and verifiable.

My cessationism says God has ceased to work as he worked through the apostles but a sovereign God has perfect liberty to do whatever he pleases in his church and in his world, and may God grant we recognize his works in the midst of a perverse generation.

vooks, you have raised pertinent issues. I will attempt them later today, along with putting forth the summary of Lawson text and the post/message for today.

vooks:
Thank you,
The prophetic gift both in NT and OT was never primarily used for recording scriptures. What I cant wrap around my head is why these gifts are automatically deemed to fly in the face of Sola Scriptura doctrine. Can't I operate revelatory gifts without attempting to add to the canon?
It appears like a scare tactic. You see a continuist and you shout, 'hey, he is adding to the canon!'
Look at Agabus prophecy over Paul and draught. Very specific messages which are inspired and are in no way adding to the canon.

We can look at Agabus prophecy from two point of views. First, Agabus made his prophecy at a time scripture was not complete. It was a time God sent words of authority through men when the sure word of prophecy had not been complete. With scriptures complete such prophecy will no longer be needed.

But Agabus was not an apostle, so why did God use him? Well, this is where I depart from strict cessationism; though scripture is complete and we no longer need human apostolic or prophetic validation, God still speaks to the church through prophetic words. Jesus promised that the Spirit will show us things to come. I have many examples of non Pentecostals who had clear prophetic words from God. I do not believe this is totally out of place.

The reason Sola Scriptura is a solid position in Christendom is because it will keep the flock of God safe. Even when a prophetic word comes, the spirit of the prophecy can be tested against scriptures.

What was the spirit of prophecy of Agabus? It meant the church must prepare. Sending relief to the poor. Love. Help. However when the prophecy is such that it will benefit only one man's stomach, you can be sure such is not from God. And most of the prophetic utterances in churches today are designed to benefit the greedy.

Thank you Winsomex.
Agabus is actually the ONLY NT prophet we have record of in action. Let's dwell on him a bit.

When you look at his prophecy of famine or Paul's suffering, would it have made ANY difference if he had uttered those words today with the NT complete? I don't think so. No amount of NT writings helps you see a famine coming over a specific place on earth nor the suffering Paul will undergo in Jerusalem.

I therefore can't understand how the NT canon would do away with such a practical use of the prophetic.
Same case with tongues. We know they aid a believer's prayer life. Now we are telling them, 'hey, you have scriptures, you don't need no aid in prayer, you have all you need'

My point is, when you subscribe to cessationism,and peg it to completion of NT canon, you inevitably end up with some logical absurdities. This is why even Calvin maintained that some gifts were operational while others ceased. Ephesians 4 talk of the so-called Fivefold ministries. How do you discard Apostles and Prophets while you maintain Pastors and Teachers? It's arbitrary.
Cessassionists need to come up with a more convincing justification for cessation or admit the gifts haven't ceased.

I have no problem with Sola Scriptura, but imagining Charismatic Movement as adversarial to it,I can't understand. I think we can retain an abused doctrine by correcting it just as Paul did in Corinth instead of throwing the baby away with the bath water.

I also observed an almost unholy reverence for Calvin. The man was fallible. Just because he said so don't make it right

WinsomeX:


We can look at Agabus prophecy from two point of views. First, Agabus made his prophecy at a time scripture was not complete. It was a time God sent words of authority through men when the sure word of prophecy had not been complete. With scriptures complete such prophecy will no longer be needed.

But Agabus was not an apostle, so why did God use him? Well, this is where I depart from strict cessationism; though scripture is complete and we no longer need human apostolic or prophetic validation, God still speaks to the church through prophetic words. Jesus promised that the Spirit will show us things to come. I have many examples of non Pentecostals who had clear prophetic words from God. I do not believe this is totally out of place.

The reason Sola Scriptura is a solid position in Christendom is because it will keep the flock of God safe. Even when a prophetic word comes, the spirit of the prophecy can be tested against scriptures.

What was the spirit of prophecy of Agabus? It meant the church must prepare. Sending relief to the poor. Love. Help. However when the prophecy is such that it will benefit only one man's stomach, you can be sure such is not from God. And most of the prophetic utterances in churches today are designed to benefit the greedy.

.

There are too many sick folk out there and nobody is healing them so there is no power to heal?
You are one step away from wondering how Jesus will not save everyone. Why can't he stop the sinners from perishing in their sin? Is he impotent?

shdemidemi:
The continuist idea can get painfully irritating some times, some people just seem to block their thinking faculty on the issue. While doing kids school runs today something just struck my spirit(mind) and I started thinking about the whole idea of the unreasonable claims of so many ignorant and some times deluded folks who claim to have this ingrained ability to perform the super natural wonders recorded in the Holy Book.

It is so disturbing that these people sit behind their computers to claim to possess the power while some big shots who make profit from the claims stand behind pulpits on sundays to make same similar claims (It is apparent that we hear them aver these things than the real show of wonders) while diseases, viruses ravage the world.

If these continuists aren't heartless, do they not see kids in places like Great Ormond street where kids with acute illnesses have to wait months to be allotted bed space in the hospitals. Some parents don't have a life of theirs any more, they wake up as early as 4am and leave the hospital at 11pm to see their kids who are lucky enough to have beds. Some people actually raised the idea and try to pass a bill to the government to allow sick people who are in inexplicable pain and agony a right to end their own lives with medical help.

If these 'Apostles wanna be' charlatans are not bare faced liars or a confused bunch, why do they need people to come to them before getting help? Jesus or the Apostles never made adverts or have a miracle venue, they got popular through people who got healed. Most times Jesus will tell these people to keep the miracle to themselves and not make it public, I believe he did this so people don't get the wrong idea that he came to the world to make everyone well. But these people kept sharing the news of a healer, sure these news rippled far and wide and people will always get healed as Jesus go about his main job of apostleship.

It is either you have the power or you don't, if you do visit LUTH, wake the dead, raise the lame you wouldn't need all the radio, t.v, newspaper, www or door to door adverts. By the time you empty Chris Hani Baragwanath Academic Hospital the entire world will stand still. Get up or shut up. Headache, back ache and random unverifiable guess works don't count, get on the field do what Peter did, do what Paul did, do what Jesus did or shut your trap.

The continuist idea can get painfully irritating some times, some people just seem to block their thinking faculty on the issue. While doing kids school runs today something just struck my spirit(mind) and I started thinking about the whole idea of the unreasonable claims of so many ignorant and some times deluded folks who claim to have this ingrained ability to perform the super natural wonders recorded in the Holy Book.

It is so disturbing that these people sit behind their computers to claim to possess the power while some big shots who make profit from the claims stand behind pulpits on sundays to make same claims (It is apparent that we hear them aver these things than the real show of wonders) while diseases, viruses ravage the world.

If these continuists aren't heartless, do they not see kids in places like Great Ormond street where kids with acute illnesses have to wait months to be allotted bed space in the hospitals. Some parents don't have a life of theirs any more, they wake up as early as 4am and leave the hospital at 11pm to see their kids who are lucky enough to have beds. Some people actually raised the idea and try to pass a bill to allow sick people who are in inexplicable pain and agony a right to end their own lives with medical help.

If these 'Apostles wanna be' charlatans are not bare faced liars or a confused bunch, why do they need people to come to them before getting help? Jesus or the Apostles never made adverts or have a miracle venue, they got popular through people who got healed. Most times Jesus will tell these people to keep the miracle to themselves and not make it public, I believe he did this so people don't get the wrong idea that he came to the world to make everyone well. But these people kept sharing the news of a healer, sure these news rippled far and wide and people will always get healed as Jesus go about his main job of apostleship.

It is either you have the power or you don't, if you do -visit LUTH, wake the dead, raise the lame you wouldn't need all the radio, t.v, newspaper, www or door to door adverts. By the time you empty Chris Hani Baragwanath Academic Hospital the entire world will stand still. Get up or shut up. Headache, back ache and other psychosomatic healing including random unverifiable guess prophecies don't count, get on the field do what Peter did, do what Paul did, do what Jesus did or shut your trap.

vooks:

Thank you Winsomex.
Agabus is actually the ONLY NT prophet we have record of in action. Let's dwell on him a bit.

That's true. OK, let's proceed.

vooks:

When you look at his prophecy of famine or Paul's suffering, would it have made ANY difference if he had uttered those words today with the NT complete? I don't think so. No amount of NT writings helps you see a famine coming over a specific place on earth nor the suffering Paul will undergo in Jerusalem.

It will make no difference. But certain minimums must be attained. We must be able to test the spirit behind the prophecy. The other part is that the prophecy of scripture cannot be compared to that of today. Scripture shows that if a prophet does not prophesy 100% accurate, he is not a prophet. We cannot therefore classify a man prophesying today a prophet because most prophecies from individuals are not accurate. So I will admit that there can be prophecy but the human fallibility renders them unable to take up the toga of a prophet. So there are prophecies but no prophets or apostles.

vooks:

I therefore can't understand how the NT canon would do away with such a practical use of the prophetic.
Same case with tongues. We know they aid a believer's prayer life. Now we are telling them, 'hey, you have scriptures, you don't need no aid in prayer, you have all you need.

The discussion on tongues, like tithes, will fall flat on its face when we locate their meanings. Tithes were agric products. Tongues are languages. Period. If tongues are languages, the simple question to anyone blowing tongues is "what are you saying?", what's the interpretation? That's what scripture asked us to use to test tongues. So the vast majority of tongues today are gibberish. I however believe that when it pleases God, he can give someone ability to speak a tongue, a language, which will have perfect sense to him or someone else, for a specific purpose. The aid we need in prayer is seeking God with all our hearts and in faith. That's all.

vooks:

My point is, when you subscribe to cessationism,and peg it to completion of NT canon, you inevitably end up with some logical absurdities. .... operational while others ceased. Ephesians 4 talk of the so-called Fivefold ministries. How do you discard Apostles and Prophets while you maintain Pastors and Teachers? It's arbitrary. Cessassionists need to come up with a more convincing justification for cessation or admit the gifts haven't ceased.

You should have seen by now that I'm not a strict cessationist. But I will rather go with one cessationist than a million charismatic bc I will be safe with him.

The cessationist argument is safe, even if it has its fallibility. All, and I mean, all the confusion in the Charismatic movement today is the result of extra biblical revelations. If people will be content with scripture, this charismatic chaos will be absent. If in the process of strict adherence to scripture, devotion and love to God, he transcends our orthodoxy and blesses us with a revelation, we will rejoice but still subordinate even that to scriptures. So the cessationist are not perfect but are light years ahead of the Charismatics in true spirituality.

vooks:

I have no problem with Sola Scriptura, but imagining Charismatic Movement as adversarial to it,I can't understand. I think we can retain an abused doctrine by correcting it just as Paul did in Corinth instead of throwing the baby away with the bath water.

There is a presentation on the issue of throwing the baby out of the bath water in this conference. You may go to the link there or wait till I upload it, it's an interesting discuss. Let me not preempt them.

vooks:
I also observed an almost unholy reverence for Calvin. The man was fallible. Just because he said so don't make it right

That's why I gave you the background in a previous post that the conference had an audience of Calvinists in view. If they were truly to be Calvinists, they must then remain true to Calvin and his beliefs. That's why that talk was titled after Calvin.

John Calvin will remain the greatest theologian this past 500 years. His teachings are the roots of the reformation reaching millions in Europe and around the world. Those who despise Calvin do it to their own detriment. This was a man sold out to the gospel, that at his death he had nothing; though he was controlling thousands of mission efforts around the world. Paul talks about imitating worthy men. One of such is John Calvin.

The disaster in Christendom today is bc names like Hagin, Kenyon, Idahosa, Oyakhilome, are replacing such worthy names. Imagine someone asking who is John MacArthur on this thread. That's why there is so much biblical illiteracy.

We will come out of it... Amen.

Excellent submission.
Supposing Agabus gave you the prophecy today, with the benefit of the entire Canon, how would you test that prophecy? You can't pick any verse saying Winsomex will not be imprisoned or there will not be famine in Judea. So you can only test the accuracy of the same and perhaps the character of the prophet and so forth.

False prophecies, Jesus said we would have those towards the end but I believe that just as false doctrines crept in even before all the apostles checked out, this has nothing to do with continuitionism. False doctrines arise because of the fallen nature of man.

About tongues, Paul made it clear that unless Holy Spirit gives the one exercising the gift interpretation, they don't understand what they are saying. You do understand that there are over 3000 languages and dialects in the world,not to mention extinct languages. Anything you don't understand is gibberish. Tongues are tested with interpretation the absence of which they should not be used publicly. tongues don't substitute any of the needs you have highlighted.

Extr and-Biblical revelations exist I agree but they are not necessarily produced by Charismatic. They stem from disregarding the Bible as the sole authority. For Catholicism, they appeal to papal Bulls and apocrypha not charismatic. In any case,like the tongues abuse in Corinthians,the solution is not to dismiss them but correct the usage. What would you have against a continuationist Sola Scriptura guy like me?

John Calvin remains a man whose work should be subjected to scriptures and we should not hesitate to discard what is amiss.

About the greatness of these men, Reformation was their finest hour. We can't possibly have anything close to that repeating itself. I find it sad that you compare Oyaks to Calvin. Why not compare Calvin to your IDEAL modern Calvinist scholar and man of influence. It almost sounds like these cessationists are bitter that Calvinism is not as appealing as it was back then

WinsomeX:


That's true. OK, let's proceed.



It will make no difference. But certain minimums must be attained. We must be able to test the spirit behind the prophecy. The other part is that the prophecy of scripture cannot be compared to that of today. Scripture shows that if a prophet does not prophesy 100% accurate, he is not a prophet. We cannot therefore classify a man prophesying today a prophet because most prophecies from individuals are not accurate. So I will admit that there can be prophecy but the human fallibility renders them unable to take up the toga of a prophet. So there are prophecies but no prophets or apostles.



The discussion on tongues, like tithes, will fall flat on its face when we locate their meanings. Tithes were agric products. Tongues are languages. Period. If tongues are languages, the simple question to anyone blowing tongues is "what are you saying?", what's the interpretation? That's what scripture asked us to use to test tongues. So the vast majority of tongues today are gibberish. I however believe that when it pleased God, he can give someone ability to speak a tongue, a language, which will have perfect sense to him or someone else, for a specific purpose. The aid we need in prayer is seeking God with all our hearts, in faith. That's all.



You should have seen by now that I'm not a strict cessationist. But I will rather go with one cessationist than a million charismatic bc I will be safe with him.

The cessationist argument is safe, even if it has its fallibility. All, and I mean, all the confusion in the Charismatic movement today is the result of extra biblical revelations. If people will be content with scripture, this charismatic chaos will be absent. If in the process of strict adherence to scripture, devotion and love to God, he transcends our orthodoxy and blesses us with a revelation, we will rejoice but still subordinate even that to scriptures. So the cessationist are not perfect but are light years ahead of the Charismatics in true spirituality.



There is a presentation on the issue of throwing the baby out of the bath water in this conference. You may go to the link there or wait till I upload it, it's an interesting discuss. Let me not preempt them.



That's why I gave you the background in a previous post that the conference had an audience of Calvinists in view. If they were truly to be Calvinists, they must then remain true to Calvin and his beliefs. That's why that talk was titled after Calvin.

John Calvin will remain the greatest theologian this past 500 years. His teachings are the roots of the reformation reaching millions in Europe and around the world. Those who despise Calvin do it to their own detriment. This was a man sold out to the gospel, that at his death he had nothing; though he was controlling thousands of mission efforts around the world. Paul talks about imitating worthy men. One of such is John Calvin.

The disaster in Christendom today is bc names like Hagin, Kenyon, Idahosa, Oyakhilome, replacing such worthy names. Imagine someone asking who is John MacArthur on this thread. That's why there is so much biblical illiteracy.

We will come out of it... Amen.