its quite unplesant people giving bad impression about we muslims. several times castigation av been place on us, even friends do make so many falacies about us , some we say they are bad, fundamenatlist, extremist, i found it obnoxious all this allegation, even they would we re beligerent, we get angry easily . these are tough statement that is too strong to categorize a set of people that are meant to serve their God deligently. somehow if a young cool muslim is seen , they would say " You don't look like a muslim" for God sake how should a muslim look like ? dirty, poor and unkept, is taht what they thin k we should look like . this is quite embarasing someone was telling me yestaerday that we have copied christian doctrine talking about night vigil ,i know siance av been 5 years old av ben attending tahjud(night vigil) thou they might not be as pronouncd as todays. we muslinms are wonderful set of people until u move close to us then u understand us. i remebered a christian girl friend of a muslim friend who before she gained admmisin to university had been fed with bad tales about muslims that she sould not get close to them util she met my friend they se realized that those statemmnt are falacious indeed, soon they wil be getting married.

Muslim are we bad as they says?

@m4malik, You have hit the nail on the head

i wont deny those things that u raised m4malik but i want to point out that issues of terrorism ang gangsterism by th so call muslims are the work of devilishminded people want to use islam an a front of propagating their evil tendecies. thats y saddam could been killing muslims in iraq in the name of muslims and the polical office of kano state governor was destroyed . their so many instance where the northern oligachy use gualibility  of the alimajiris to cause havoc in the country. Av heard it several times by those people who av ben to the north that most of the attrocities cause in  the north were carried out by the nigerians who had poverty reprogrammed their thinking . a normal muslim would not do all such things ,the holy quran strongly goes against taken the lives of fellow human beign and even causing problems within a state.

@wholex,

I understand your concerns, but when moderate contemporary Muslims blame the atrocities of their fellow Muslims on excuses like "the work of devilishminded people. . .and . . . gualibility of the alimajiris," I'm forced to shake my head in disagreement because these same people get their inspiration both from the Qur'an and the example of Muhammad in the hadith.

Let's take a singular example - the killing of a Muslim convert to other religions, this is what the Qur'an says:

Q.4:89 - "They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

And from the Hadith:

Hadith Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57

Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

So, you can see that the bellicose nature of these 'real' Muslims is not a tangential spin-off of demented minds, but rather they're following the authentic belief of Muhammad's religion, and those Muslims who believe that "the holy quran strongly goes against taken the lives of fellow human beign" are regarded by the 'real Qur'an-believing' Muslims as munafiq.

I don't see you as one of those who makes us wonder at the grey areas of Islam; but you really would have a tough task convincing the world otherwise than that Islam creates a people who know nothing like peace and will go to any length to deny others of the same.

m4malik:

Islam creates a people who know nothing like peace and will go to any length to deny others of the same.

Very strong statement there. On the one hand, not all muslims would follow the tenets of Islam's holy book about some grey areas; on the other hand, that most Muslims would promote some of those tenets like killing a Muslim convert to other religions is a very distrubing trend indeed.

: m4malik, kenshin , Both of you are good examples of what wholex is talking about.
At the rate things are going many Muslims have to even fear to give their kids Islam names.
Ones we were watching football , i think it was African cup, Nigeria against ? and one foolish woman shouted Jesus is stronger than Mohammad.
We feel it in every day life . I feel it and am not even a Muslim. A very good friend has 8 kids people say "because her husband is a Muslim he is forcing her to have them , thats not true, she is the one that wants them.
The only thing i here is those Muslims them here those Muslims there.
Islam is a book of peace and an unbeliever is not a non Muslim.
I admit that some go too far in there religion.
But even here on this forum there are a lot of fanatics. and am talking about Christian fanatics.
Every second someone here is calling on Gods name.
What dose god have to do with a forum.

Even i have received insults here for supporting Muslims and on this forum.

@mamput
it is quite unfortunate that u dont understand wh y xtian call on the name of God
well the bible says it plainly " the name of the Lord is a strong tower and the rightoues run to it and they are safe"
safe fromthe likes of bin ladin and those mallams

The Muslims do not have that right??

@mamaput,

mamaput:

: m4malik, kenshin , Both of you are good examples of what wholex is talking about.
At the rate things are going many Muslims have to even fear to give their kids Islam names.
Ones we were watching football , i think it was African cup, Nigeria against ? and one foolish woman shouted Jesus is stronger than Mohammad.
We feel it in every day life . I feel it and am not even a Muslim. A very good friend has 8 kids people say "because her husband is a Muslim he is forcing her to have them , thats not true, she is the one that wants them.
The only thing i here is those Muslims them here those Muslims there.
Islam is a book of peace and an unbeliever is not a non Muslim.
I admit that some go too far in there religion.
But even here on this forum there are a lot of fanatics. and am talking about Christian fanatics.
Every second someone here is calling on Gods name.
What dose god have to do with a forum.

You sound so very confused because you haven't read the inputs on the Forum.

What is wolex really talking about? And how much of the Qur'an have you read to declare that propagandist hoo-ha that "Islam is a book of peace"? (Not to even mention that Islam is a religion and not a book!). I really don't mind you making noise on the Forum, but you'll do well to make sense out of your misdirected noise!

You are only succeeding in proving me right.
You are nothing more than a racist.
OK my thoughts were faster than my writhing Islam is a way of life and a peaceful way of life.
And the Koran is not better or worse than the bible,
The bible too is full of blood shading

An other good example all over the world people carry their flags.
This year was the first time since the world war that Germans could do this too with out being called Nazis.
Any german that say he is proud to be a German is called a Nazi.
Thats just wht is happening with the Muslims today.
many working at the airport have lost their jobs just like that.No not their jobs the costums just took their ID from them and without it they cannot work.

m4malik:

@mamaput,

You sound so very confused because you haven't read the inputs on the Forum.

What is wolex really talking about? And how much of the Qur'an have you read to declare that propagandist hoo-ha that "Islam is a book of peace"? (Not to even mention that Islam is a religion and not a book!). I really don't mind you making noise on the Forum, but you'll do well to make sense out of your misdirected noise!

Just for the record the second insult here and we are only on a forum.

@mamaput,

I haven't proven you right in anything other than the noise you're making. Find out the meaning of 'racism' before you go off convincing us further that you really don't know what you're saying. The only thing you could have done is proven me wrong on my inputs, not taking a cheap applause for what you know nothing about. And please, did you mean 'shedding' instead of 'shading'?

What have Germans being called Nazis got to do with religion? You don't just spin off topic and start off accusing people especially where you haven't taken the time to read through the posts.

mamaput:

Just for the record the second insult here and we are only on a forum.

Stop being so childish, mamaput. What did I do or say to have merited your insult of calling me a racist - a word you neither know in meaning or proper use? And when you started off accusing me directly in your first entry here, what did that make you?

My use of the germans is just an other example.
That i call you a racist is not an insult it is a fact.
racist tribalism what ever.

I'm not so sure what you're attempting here, but have you given deep thought to those issues of strongly held and undeniable beliefs in Islam? While I don't equate all Muslims as the same, what are we to make of those very disturbing trends today that most Muslims are parading to the world about Islam? Sample these -

I ask myself were you get your starstictics from.
What % are most Muslims to you ??

mamaput:

My use of the germans is just an other example.

Another example of what exactly?

mamaput:

That i call you a racist is not an insult it is a fact.
racist tribalism what ever.

Thanks - that says so much about you.

mamaput:

I ask myself were you get your starstictics from.
What % are most Muslims to you ??

Just proves that you haven't read the various threads where I've made inputs on this again and again.

Example of a malicious racial campain.

Great. You proved nothing other than what you had from the onset - noise!

Samething happened to the Japanese in the second world war
samething to the Jews the ond world war
same to the curds in Tucky
same thing in Rhonda
Now the muslims.
People have to make noise and not look away the way they have been looking away.

mamaput:

People have to make noise and not look away the way they have been looking away.

That's all that needed to have been said - "not look away the way they have been looking away", which is precisely what we have been attempting to do by bringing these very disturbing trends to the frontdoor of our Muslim friends. We are asking them to do more than passively shrug their shoulders when things happen that make the world grimace about the sad occurences in Islam. Let me remind you of what I said earlier -

m4malik:

I think Muslims should do more to convince the world that Islam is not what we're seeing it being practised today - to convince us with tolerance and not suicide bombers and terrorists; with openness and a willingness to confront these issues rather than the hypocricies so characteristic of the leaders in Islam.

So, you can see that you either misunderstood the issue altogether and supposed that those who refuse to look away are the real enemies.

Looks like you have cooled down a bit.
Well i have read through some of your posts.
I wounder what you are trying to do.
I really do.
But do not forget it is not war against Islam but war against terror.

Dear mamaput, I have always tried to cool down and maintain a consistent posture. It may seem that I'm hot-headed from my previous post, which is rather unfortunate, if that's how people want to read me. I would rather be misread and misunderstood than be passive and silent in the face of what confronts us all. Whatever could be adduced from my posts, one thing I've tried to do is present issues and create an awareness for people to see what we many times take for granted.

In all, I don't go out to be deliberately belligerent - not at all. People may not like my inputs, because truth hurts badly (I know because I've been there before). Where I have inadvertently said things unwarranted at all, I've always sought to register my apologies - which I don't hesitate to do here: please accept my apologies if you felt offended by any lines you read. However, I offer that people try and look at the issues raised than take it personally.

My idea of fighting terrorism is to expose the root cause of what produces it. Until people bring on these root-causes, it would be a never ending menace we'll perennially have to deal with.

Shalom.

have a nice day too

Thanks and God bless.

m4malik:

@mamaput,
(Not to even mention that Islam is a religion and not a book!).

well mamaput the major difference here is simle
christianity is could actually be clasified as a life style and not a religion.
cos when u accept christ into ur life u become a new creature old things are pass away every thing becomes new
new inwat sense u may ask? new in the sense that to luv ur enemies not just ur neighbours
to be at peace with allman at every time
for the holy spirt will give u guidance, comfort and insight into all things
"for we wresttle not against flesh and blood but against pricipalities and powers and rulers of dark ages" most likely u would be wondering how come when u moslems make so much noise we just look at at u and laugh cos u actually do not know wat ur doing
it is the devil that controls ur religion that makes u go to the extent of killing innocent children in northern nigeria over a cartoon in denmark. all in the name of kill the infidels?
wat average thinking human being after a round of murders would still say he is practising a religion of peace? are u trying to convince ur self that the killing is an act of peace? or most likely its just an irony
when black becoms white for us to convince our selves that we r right?

back to the question,
muslims are u bad? well ur worse actually. i would prefer to serve a God that fights for himself than for me to fight for him. if he cant defend himself why is he GOd? me i wonder oooo

wholex and all on this thread,this is a very important topic and the way we handle it matters.
Muslims are humans and so there are good ones and bad ones.
Like mamaput said,it would be wrong to see someone and hate and dislike them because they are Muslim.That is wrong.

Let us attempt to discuss in a calm manner why the teachings of Islam as written in their holybooks does not support the claims of peace.
Mamaput it would be necessary for us to quote from the teachings of Mohammed to support any claims why Islam cannot be a peaceful religion.
Remain openminded.

Wholex do you or any Muslims dispute my claim that true Islam calls for the killing of any Muslim convert to Christianity like my brother 4malik on this forum.
I need an answer please so that we can move on.

Muslims are not bad.

People are bad.

I am a christian, so i don't know anything about whats in the Quran. I would love to know whats in the Quran, but its not something i am going to read soon because i'm not done reading my bible.

I hope with this thread, the Muslims can teach us that don't know much about the Quran a little about it. First thing i would like to know is if the Quran has old and new testaments (categories, version, etc) just like the bible?


Christians are supposed to be followers of Christ, and sometimes the people that claim they are christians do things that are certainly not Christ like. And yet they have the guts to judge the Muslims (And we christians we know we are not supposed to judge).

i wonder why m4malik`s head has not yet been sauced for peppersoup. (laugh)
to your question babyosisi, yes muslim denies that monopolistic idea of killing muslim converts to xtian which you are quite aware that much light had been shed on it for your understanding by various muslim brothers on nairaland.
i read a story of an american lady who was may be by now is still a lover of songs, she was given a tape of one of the poetic recitation of the Holy Quran. unknown to her, she loved it and requested for the composer of the poem and she was given a copy of the Quran. well let me not go further to what actually happened at the end.
she made a statement which i want to share with every one on nairaland. she said if she had known muslims before her encounter with the Quran she would called it a bluff but rather vice versa was the case.
what am trying to point out from the above story is that you can never describe islam from the outside but instead you must  have a clearer knowledge of the Quran before you can definitely and conciously describe Islam as a religion of God.
let me give you my own idea of Islam, it is a mystrey which when you try to unfold you still find it mysterious, this  salvation thing is not what you get up morning and declare salvation for yourself, you really have to search for it and work for it. that was why God in the Quran emphasises a lot on the use of the gift of knowledge He has given to mankind. a mare teaching of the Quran by another person does not really make you understand it but your personal conviction of the message in the Quran. and in so many areas of the Quran, He declares that except ye be wise you will not understand the Quran.
so therefore my good friends on nairaland, you have done a great job trying to understand Islam but a further use of the wisdom God has given to you should be able to put you through.
i pray that may God Almighty directs you as you make another benefitting research on the religion called Islam.

peace

@topic:

Re: Musilms, Are We Bad?
« #1 on: August 12, 2006, 01:54 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not so sure what you're attempting here, but have you given deep thought to those issues of strongly held and undeniable beliefs in Islam? While I don't equate all Muslims as the same, what are we to make of those very disturbing trends today that most Muslims are parading to the world about Islam? Sample these -

¤ if a Muslim converts to another religion, kill him?

¤ if people insult Islam, massacre them?

¤ if a cartoon is published somewhere in the Scandinavia, Muslims in Nigeria go on rampage and kill Christians in Nigeria.

¤ if some Muslims want to register their misgivings about the West, suicide bombers on assignment must leave passengers stranded at the airport for days.

¤

[b]the above is for the Zombi's or vampires, real educated  Muslim flees way from total sin. You might come from a muslim world but not be true to Islam.[/b]Islam means peace!

Remmzy:

the above is for the Zombi's or vampires, real educated Muslim flees way from total sin. You might come from a muslim world but not be true to Islam. Islam means peace!

You only succeeded in proving that since Muhammad did not flee from total sin, he was not a "real educated Muslim" and he was not true to Islam as he did not pursue "peace". Hence, your input is aptly suited to "Zombi's or vampires".

ISAHO:

i wonder why m4malik`s head has not yet been sauced for peppersoup. (laugh)

Now we both can laugh, because I'm not in a place where my head would have been stewed from the Islamic tenet of killing a Muslim convert to another religion.

ISAHO:

to your question babyosisi, yes muslim denies that monopolistic idea of killing muslim converts to xtian which you are quite aware that much light had been shed on it for your understanding by various muslim brothers on nairaland.

No light has been shed on the issue as long as the hadith still stands as referenced earlier in which Muhammad was believed to have said: 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'

ISAHO:

what am trying to point out from the above story is that you can never describe islam from the outside but instead you must have a clearer knowledge of the Quran before you can definitely and conciously describe Islam as a religion of God.

Precisely what I have been driving at - people should hold their ignorant opinions to themselves until they've read the Qur'an before ascribing euphemisms to Islam that it does not merit.

ISAHO:

let me give you my own idea of Islam, it is a mystrey which when you try to unfold you still find it mysterious,

Granted, particularly the mystery of killing atheists for not believing in God, killing Muslims for converting to other religions, and the immorality of the Prophet of Islam that one cannot gloss over.

ISAHO:

this salvation thing is not what you get up morning and declare salvation for yourself, you really have to search for it and work for it. that was why God in the Quran emphasises a lot on the use of the gift of knowledge He has given to mankind. a mare teaching of the Quran by another person does not really make you understand it but your personal conviction of the message in the Quran. and in so many areas of the Quran, He declares that except ye be wise you will not understand the Quran.

Searching and working for salvation will not make anyone closer to God if they continue to reject the grace that He offers in Jesus Christ. It's funny that man will seek a substitute for that which already was purported to have been "revealed" and "confirmed" - as is said of the Gospel of Jesus in the Qur'an; and after all the work is done, even the founder of such a substitute salvation declares that he did not know what *Allah* would do to him in that day. If there's no assurance at the end of one's career of searching and working for salvation, why even bother at the beginning?

ISAHO:

so therefore my good friends on nairaland, you have done a great job trying to understand Islam but a further use of the wisdom God has given to you should be able to put you through. i pray that may God Almighty directs you as you make another benefitting research on the religion called Islam.

Good - we're still researching on the explicit statements in the Qur'an and the hadiths that inform our concerns and posting the results for all to read on the Forum, in the hope that they may be directed to benefit on the findings by God's true mercy.

nilla:

Christians are supposed to be followers of Christ, and sometimes the people that claim they are christians do things that are certainly not Christ like. And yet they have the guts to judge the Muslims (And we christians we know we are not supposed to judge).

To be a follower of Christ does not mean such a person should keep silent at issues that concern everyone - including you. As long as Muslims are not doing enough to confront the hideous atrocities perpetrated by Muslims themselves who believe they are obeying the call of *Allah*, we owe it a duty to ourselves and to posterity to take these issues to the frontdoor of people who don't know what they're talking about until they've read both the Qur'an and the Bible.

As for judging, Jesus Himself said this: "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. . . Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:7 & 24). Need I make further comments?

@m4malik:guy, am by your statement you must be a politician in the making!.

@Remmzy,

No vex - apologies 1,000 times! I might have read you wrongly.