Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? - Religion (2) - Nairaland
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The Lord Has Shown Me Where Nigeria Next President Will Come From - Primate Ayo / That Silly Question - "Where Did God Come From" - Aseity Discussion. / Did Mohammed Write The Quran? (2) (3) (4)
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 10:57am On Aug 02, 2015 |
truthman2013:Mashallah bro, I've saved that post incase he tries to state contrary. My Allah bless you for the good work you're doing too 3 Likes |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by plainbibletruth: 7:19pm On Aug 02, 2015 |
Demmzy15: Mohammed's messages were transmitted orally for a very long time before being reduced to writing. Chances are that even those who eventually put his messages down in writing had to refer to other sources to fill in gaps that they needed to make their writings more credible. Cook and Patricia Crone in their extremely interesting and intellectually stimulating work Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World (1977) point out how both the literature of Islam - the Quran - and it's traditions and rituals were not only borrowed from other books but also other religions and their practices. In Slaves on Horses: The Evolution of the Islamic Polity (1980), Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam (1987), and later works Patricia Crone showed how Muslim traditions drew on a common pool of material fabricated by the storytellers. At the end of the day the books of Islam came out of an attempt to reconcile distortions arising from various allegiances within Islam such as those to a particular area, tribe, sect or school of thought, etc. |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Eratosthenes(m): 8:31pm On Aug 02, 2015 |
Plagiarism things.... |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by plainbibletruth: 11:06pm On Aug 02, 2015 |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 11:34pm On Aug 02, 2015 |
plainbibletruth: You're wrong @underlined, not only that the Quran was committed in the memory, it was also written down during the time of the Prophet Muhammad(sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam). "Zayd Ibn Thabit was the scribe of the Prophet. Others among his noble scribes were Ubayy ibn Ka’b, Ibn Mas’ud, Mu’awiyah ibn Abi-Sufyan, Khalid ibn Al-Waleed and Az-Zubayr ibn Al-Awwam. - Ibn Hajar al-’Asqalani, Al-Isabah fee Taymeez as-Sahabah, Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1978 "The verses were recorded on leather, parchment, scapulae (shoulder bones of animals) and the stalks of date palms." - Al-Harith al-Muhasabi, Kitab Fahm al-Sunan, cited in Suyuti, Al-Itqan fi ‘Uloom al-Quran, Vol.1, p.58. So I don't think you know what you're saying, studying the works of Patricia Crone is disastrous. I'll prefer you stay away from it. Chances are that even those who eventually put his messages down in writing had to refer to other sources to fill in gaps that they needed to make their writings more credible. [/b] Thank God you said "Chances", possibility doesn't necessarily mean probability. You need to know the difference. The Quran was revised with the Prophet every Ramadhan, so it's not possible. Even critics of Islam have admitted, it's not possible for the Prophet to plagiarize because there were no influence in Makkah and Medina as of that time. Cook and Patricia Crone in their extremely interesting and intellectually stimulating work Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World (1977) point out how both the literature of Islam - the Quran - and it's traditions and rituals were not only borrowed from other books but also other religions and their practices. I could throw this Patricia Crone and Cook's book into the thrash because they've disavowed the book. "In 1991, Patricia Crone and Michael Cook disavowed the views that they presented in this book."- Culled from Wikipedia She claimed Muslims and Jews joined forces or teamed up against Christians. What is surprising is that she claimed the Quran was written only until the late 7th century around the Caliph of AbdulMalik which is not true, the Qur'an was standardized during the time of Uthman many years before AbdulMalik. She also claimed that the religion of Islam was formed by Arabs and Jews in the year 690AD, when in fact the Prophet died in 632AD. A new Qur'an found as totally refuted Patricia's claim about the Qur'an of it written in the end of the 7th century(approximately 670-699AD) http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/world-oldest-quran-manuscripts-uk-150722110034399.html Moreover, the book was just speculating. No reasonable point was mentioned, worst of all is the misinformation of history. Even a right thinking person would know this book is irrational. In Slaves on Horses: The Evolution of the Islamic Polity (1980), Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam (1987), and later works Patricia Crone showed how Muslim traditions drew on a common pool of material fabricated by the storytellers. Mr. Man, please give me the page of this so-called fabrication in her book. I've read the full rebuttal to her book and nothing as such was mentioned. Download the pdf here http://www.sultan.org/books/Patricia_crone_english_reply.pdf&sa=U&ved=0CAoQFjAAahUKEwiDxYWvrYvHAhXDDSwKHSZVA1o&sig2=ZlpDLTO4yEO8XFdFdf6tSA&usg=AFQjCNGIqy6VoTwLCi0VYnhXs1UgbAqHRA [s] Ogbeni your story is too much, you've failed again. Even the Patricia Crone has denied you, so you're alone. You don't present anything tangible rather than speculations. Weren't dullards o 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by abduljabbar4(m): 12:00am On Aug 03, 2015 |
Demmzy15:May Allah bless you abundantly. Keep busting their lies. Keep it up |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by abduljabbar4(m): 12:09am On Aug 03, 2015 |
parisbookaddict:I smell "painment" here. Nice one demmzy15. |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by abduljabbar4(m): 12:19am On Aug 03, 2015 |
Demmzy15:You are making me proud mehn. Well done! 1 Like |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by abduljabbar4(m): 12:27am On Aug 03, 2015 |
truthman2012:Its like you dont have sense at all they keep on answerinh you but your hatred for the worlds fastest rising religion is affecting your comprehension ability. Smh 1 Like |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by abduljabbar4(m): 12:32am On Aug 03, 2015 |
truthman2013:I kept on reading his posts over and over again. So impressive. 2 Likes |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by plainbibletruth: 10:02am On Aug 03, 2015 |
Demmzy15 Like they say 'Talk is cheap'. It's easy for you to write anything. But be sure you're honest, ok? You're wrong @underlined, not only that the Quran was committed in the memory, it was also written down during the time of the Prophet Muhammad(sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam).What is clear is this (unless you want to re-write history in 2015): there was NO UNIFIED COPY of the Quran during Mohammed's lifetime. What was the Quran supposed to be? Was it not 'RECITATIONS'? And like you said they were on "leather, parchment, scapulae (shoulder bones of animals) and the stalks of date palms". And these were by DIFFERENT writers. right? Thank God you said "Chances", possibility doesn't necessarily mean probability. You need to know the difference. The Quran was revised with the Prophet every Ramadhan, so it's not possible. Even critics of Islam have admitted, it's not possible for the Prophet to plagiarize because there were no influence in Makkah and Medina as of that time.Patricia Crone was a professor of Islamic history so you can't just dismiss her works as 'speculating' and 'irrational'. 'Irrational'? Whao! She knows her onions. Unless you would prefer a different yardstick is used in examining the Quran and Islam than is used for other historical documents. She didn't just write one book or one article but several. You are quoting a 1991 post about a disclaim. See a 2008 position: In an article: What do we actually know about Mohammed? 10 June 2008 in openDemocracy this is what she wrote: "One explanation for these features would be that the prophet formulated his message in the liturgical language current in the religious community in which he grew up, adapting and/or imitating ancient texts such as hymns, recitations, and prayers, which had been translated or adapted from another Semitic language in their turn." This is clear enough or do you need it to be simplified? Ok, in simple language it's that Mohammed borrowed from other writings. Can you honestly prove that "The Quran was revised with the Prophet every Ramadhan"? Can you honestly prove that "there were no influence in Makkah and Medina as of that time"? So only people of one culture, one religion and one language were in these places at that time? Really? Mr. Man, please give me the page of this so-called fabrication in her book. I've read the full rebuttal to her book and nothing as such was mentioned. Download the pdf here http://www.sultan.org/books/Patricia_crone_english_reply.pdf&sa=U&ved=0CAoQFjAAahUKEwiDxYWvrYvHAhXDDSwKHSZVA1o&sig2=ZlpDLTO4yEO8XFdFdf6tSA&usg=AFQjCNGIqy6VoTwLCi0VYnhXs1UgbAqHRAWhen you are bringing up issues OUTSIDE the focus of discussion what you are doing is muddling up matters. What we are looking at here is: Where did Mohammed's stories come from? Not dates in history. Any student or reader of history knows that dating may not be precise. New information can always lead to revision of dates. Different dating systems can lead to differences. So, your attempt to use differences in dates to disprove Patricia Crone holds no water. It's not even our main issue here. |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 1:25pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
plainbibletruth: You're the one who's not honest here, you're saying things that are unreasonable and irrational. What is clear is this (unless you want to re-write history in 2015): there was NO UNIFIED COPY of the Quran during Mohammed's lifetime. What was the Quran supposed to be? Was it not 'RECITATIONS'? And like you said they were on "leather, parchment, scapulae (shoulder bones of animals) and the stalks of date palms". And these were by DIFFERENT writers. right? If you indeed settled down and read my post you won't be confused. The Prophet had his own scribes, not everyone was a scribe. I presented a link in which you didn't click, an act of dishonesty on your part http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/world-oldest-quran-manuscripts-uk-150722110034399.html Patricia Crone was a Patricia Crone is no Professor but a scholar, historian. What is shocking is that this historian claimed Makkah is South of Arabian Peninsula(wrong), she claimed Muslims migrated(hijrah) to Palestine(wrong) and so many errors. No historian would miss these simple points, even a re'tard would know. She knows her onions. No be only onions na garlic, ogbeni you've lost jor. Unless you would prefer a different yardstick is used in examining the Quran and Islam than is used for other historical documents. She didn't just write one book or one article but several. She's not a scholar on Islam, so I don't need her books to prove Islam is true. All her points are just hypothesis You are quoting a 1991 post about a disclaim. See a 2008 position: The article you're talking about was written in 2008,but the quote she made below was made in 2004. In an article: What do we actually know about Mohammed? 10 June 2008 in openDemocracy this is what she wrote: Patricia Crone's main recent work is Medieval Islamic Political Thought (Edinburgh University Press, 2004); published in the United States as God's Rule: Government and Islam [Columbia University Press, 2004]). This is taken from the same site you referenced to, assuming the article you would have noticed. "One explanation for these features would be that the prophet formulated his message in the liturgical language current in the religious community in which he grew up, adapting and/or imitating ancient texts such as hymns, recitations, and prayers, which had been translated or adapted from another Semitic language in their turn." If indeed you read the article down, she was merely presenting an hypothesis. It's unproven. She later stated: "...The attempt to relate the linguistic and stylistic features of the Qur'an to those of earlier religious texts calls for a mastery of Semitic languages and literature that few today possess, and those who do so tend to work on other things. This is sensible, perhaps, given that the field has become highly charged politically..." Moreover something tells me that Patricia Crone was practicing takkiyah. Dr. Ali Khan is a professor of law at Washburn University School of Law in Topeka, Kansas. He wrote an article, “The Externalist Scholarship on Islamic Law”, which will be published in Michigan State Law Review. [size=14pt]"[/size] However, what distinguishes this book is the fact that its authors, Michael Cook and Patricia Crone, no longer subscribe to its critical findings. On April 3, 2006, I had a phone conversation with Michael Cook and we talked about Hagarism. He said to me the following, which he later confirmed by means of an email: “The central thesis of that book was, I now think, mistaken. Over the years, I have gradually come to think that the evidence we had to support the thesis was not sufficient or internally consistent enough.” On April 6, 2006, I interviewed Patricia Crone, as well, to see what she now thinks about the book. She was even more candid in repudiating the central thesis of the book. She agrees with the critics that the book was “a graduate essay.” The book was published in 1977 when the authors lived in England. “We were young, and we did not know anything. The book was just a [size=14pt]hypothesis,[/size] not a conclusive finding,” said Crone. “I do not think that the book’s thesis is valid.[size=14pt]"[/size] Hope you've seen it with your very own eyes, this article was written 2years after her article. [s]This is clear enough or do you need it to be simplified? Ok, in simple language it's that Mohammed borrowed from other writings.[/s] This nonsense is coming from a guy whose book has up to 24,000 manuscripts but only 66/72 was chosen. What is shocking is that these books were chosen about 900years after the Prophet Muhammad(sallallaahu alayhi wasallam). The bible claimed in Revelations that anyone who adds or subtract from the scriptures would dealt with by God, but unfortunately we don't know who added or subtracted "Catholics or Protestants"?! Who's God's wrath upon?! You should be thinking about this rather than struggling with the Quran which is none of your business. Can you honestly prove that "The Quran was revised with the Prophet every Ramadhan"? Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) was the most generous of all the people, and he used to become more generous in the month of Ramadan when Gabriel met him. Gabriel used to meet him every night during Ramadan to revise the Quran with him. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) used to recite the Quran to Gabriel. When Gabriel met him, he used to become more generous than the fast wind (which causes rain and welfare, more generous than the strong uncontrollable wind in readiness and haste to do charitable deeds)." [Bukhari 1:1:5; 3:31:126; 4:54:443; 4:56:754; 6:61:519] Can you honestly prove that "there were no influence in Makkah and Medina as of that time"? Sorry to say, you're an "amateur", are you seriously asking me to prove? You made a proclamation that Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) plagiarized from the "Samaritans" and I asked you to prove that they had influence in Arabia and you dare throw the question back?!  Go clinic abeg, the onus is left for you to prove that they had influence in Arabia When you are bringing up issues OUTSIDE the focus of discussion what you are doing is muddling up matters. You're the one making things difficult by running to Patricia Crone's works, if you didn't I wouldn't have done contrary. So blame yourself not me! What we are looking at here is: Where did Mohammed's stories come from? I answered it came from Allah alone, the All Majesty, All knowing. Not dates in history. Off point! Any student or reader of history knows that dating may not be precise. New information can always lead to revision of dates. Different dating systems can lead to differences. Even if some dating vary, it's very important. In this case of ours, you're wrong about datings. Without datings, histology isn't complete. If datings aren't important, I wonder why Christians claim Jesus died 2000 years ago or why you have birth certificate?Nonsense! [s]So, your attempt to use differences in dates to disprove Patricia Crone holds no water. It's not even our main issue here.[/s] See this funny guy o, well don't worry you'll defend the pagan origins of the bible soon. If they born you well, put down dates. Nonsense, even Patricia has admitted she's wrong, but your stronghead won't allow you think. 2 Likes |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 2:14pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
abduljabbar4: abduljabbar4: abduljabbar4:Thank you very much bro, May Allah bless you too. 1 Like |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by plainbibletruth: 2:54pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Demmzy15:You are yet to show that Patricia Crone denied her 2008 statement that: "One explanation for these features would be that the prophet formulated his message in the liturgical language current in the religious community in which he grew up, adapting and/or imitating ancient texts such as hymns, recitations, and prayers, which had been translated or adapted from another Semitic language in their turn." What was the CENTRAL THESIS of their 1977 book? Certainly not what I quoted above. You are the one trying to use your takkiyah to confuse people. Nothing Dr Ali Khan said in what you quoted refutes the fact that Mohammed relied on other sources for the content of his Quran. Unless you want to lie, the 2008 article was very objective, so this statement in it is surely Patricia Crone's findings on this matter. You cannot attempt to disprove it by going back in time to other unrelated issues. You went back to an incident of 2006 to dispute a 2008 article? Clap for yourself!! Where in this 2008 article did she admit she was wrong? Can we even trust a Muslim apologist statement of a conversation with her? When you make such statements as above - Patricia Crone is not .... .... Dr. Ali Khan is .... .... do you know what that tells about you? Stick to the main issue. Mohammed's stories were influenced by other writings. Admit it and let's move on. 1 Like |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 3:04pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
plainbibletruth:Looks like you have nothing to do, read and digest the my earlier post. You're fond of this nonsense, you presented nothing tangible. If she claimed he imitated ancient hymns, recitation, etc mention them. You can't tell me because she said so then I must accept. No one is fool, if you have something reasonable to say mention or quote. You're just wasting my time here! You're quick to dismiss Dr. Ali Khan, but you want me to accept Patricia Crone  ? I think you must be sick! 2 Likes |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 3:28pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Like I said, you'll have to deal with the pagan origins of the bible. -Genesis and the Babylonic Pagan myth(Enuma Elish) 1.Genesis 1st day the creation of light Enuma Elish Light emanates from the gods 2. Genesis 2nd day the dome of the sky is created Enuma Elish creation of the firmament (dome 3. Genesis 3rd day creation of dry land Enuma Elish creation of dry land 4. Genesis 4th day creation of heavenly lights Enuma Elish creation of heavenly lights 5. Genesis 5th day creation of animals --------------- 6. Genesis 6th day creation of man Enuma Elish creation of man 7. Genesis God rests and sanctifies the sabbath Enuma Elish the gods rest and celebrate with a banquet http://www.skeptically.org/oldtestament/id14.html, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enuma_Elish -The flood story (Genesis 6-  and Atrahasis and Gilgameshhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology) -Book of Proverbs (22:17-24:22) and the Instruction of Amenemope [b](Proverbs 22:17-18):"Incline thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, And apply thine heart to my doctrine; For it is pleasant if thou keep them in thy belly, that they may be established together upon thy lips" (Amenemope, ch. 1):"Give thine ear, and hear what I say, And apply thine heart to apprehend; It is good for thee to place them in thine heart, let them rest in the casket of thy belly; That they may act as a peg upon thy tongue" (Proverbs 22:22):"Rob not the poor, for he is poor, neither oppress (or crush) the lowly in the gate." (Amenemope, ch. 2):"Beware of robbing the poor, and oppressing the afflicted." (Proverbs 23:4-5):"Toil not to become rich, And cease from dishonest gain; For wealth maketh to itself wings, Like an eagle that flieth heavenwards" (Amenemope, ch. 7):"Toil not after riches; If stolen goods are brought to thee, they remain not over night with thee. They have made themselves wings like geese. And have flown into the heavens." (Proverbs 23:10): "Remove not the widows landmark; And enter not into the field of the fatherless." (Amenemope, ch. 6): "Remove not the landmark from the bounds of the field...and violate not the widows boundary"[/b] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructions_of_Amenemopet, http://newunderthesun..com/2008/03/knockoffs-part-2.html?m=1 Plainbibletruth this what we call plagiarism, not by mere claiming "the pagans and others influenced him...bla bla bla bla..." Hope it's clear and don't dare refute with dating because you said they carry no weight. 2 Likes |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Rilwayne001: 5:12pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
^ Its like you want to kill plainbibletruth if you are to delve into the pagan origins of the bible. I was about introducing the pagan origins of the Trinity doctrine before you brought the above up. But my friend plainbible truth, cannot stand such arguement, as, he has always been running away whenever he is summoned for it. As per the above, it is either he run away as usual of find a flimsy excuse to evade it. I'll be watching from here. 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by plainbibletruth: 8:20pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Demmzy15 Don't be mischievous by misquoting me. What I said was that "dating may not be precise". I never said "they carry no weight". The two are not the same. Is this how you guys carry on your deception? What a pitiable attempt at gaining points. Maybe you gave that misleading representation of what i stated because you want to twist things. That is deception. Moses' record predates the other. So which is likely to have borrowed from the other? The answer should be obvious but in case you miss it - Moses' is the authentic one. Apply the same to any other such material you come across. |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by basilico: 8:44pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Demmzy15: I'll challenge you on three issues -The Quran was committed to memory? What happened to Ibn Sarb who used to rewrite verses Allah revealed to his prophet and who wanted him dead after recapturing Mecca -The stoning verse eaten by a goat under Aisha bed? Had anyone memorized this one? -Caliph Uthman recompiled the Quran 30years later after that criminal died discarding parts of the quran Quran is pure then ??1 Like |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 9:51pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
plainbibletruth: blabbing as usual, if I misquoted you I'm sorry. It won't happen again!  Moses' record predates the other. So which is likely to have borrowed from the other? Wrong!! The supposed writers plagiarized, I doubt if indeed Moses wrote them. The answer should be obvious but in case you miss it - Moses' is the authentic one. - Enuma Elish and Genesis "The Enûma Eliš exists in various copies from Babylon and Assyria. The version from Ashurbanipal's library dates to the 7th century BCE. The composition of the text probably dates to the Bronze Age, to the time of Hammurabi or perhaps the early Kassite era (roughly 18th to 16th centuries BCE), although some scholars favour a later date of c. 1100 BCE" Bernard Frank Batto, Slaying the dragon: mythmaking in the biblical tradition, Westminster John Knox Press, 1992, ISBN 978-0-664-25353-0, p. 35. -Genesis "Dated Between 250 BC and 70 AD.(Dead Sea Scrolls)" Timothy Lim, The Dead Sea Scrolls: A Very Short Introduction, Oxford University Press, 2005, Dating the Scrolls From the above, we can conclude that The writer of Genesis copied from Enuma Elish because Enuma Elish was written probably 1600-1800 years Before Christ, some scholars say 1100 years Before Christ while Genesis was written 250years Before Christ. Some claimed it was written during the time of David/Solomon. Even though for the sake of argument we agree Moses wrote(it's a lie tho) it, still the Enuma Elish is still older because Moses wrote it around 1445-1405 years Before Christ. Checkmate! -Atrahasis and Gilgamesh flood Story and Genesis flood Story Atrahasis and Gilgamesh "Atra-Hasis ("exceedingly wise"  is the protagonist of an 18th-century BCE Akkadian epic recorded in various versions on clay tablets. The Atra-Hasis tablets include both a creation myth and a flood account, which is one of three surviving Babylonian deluge stories." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atra-Hasis Genesis flood story, I showed earlier Genesis was written around 250years Before Christ. The Atrahasis and Gil games flood story predates Genesis even if Moses wrote. So according to the above the writer of Genesis plagiarized from the pagans because the Atrahasis and Gilgamesh was written 1600-1800 years Before Christ. Checkmate! -Book of Proverbs (22:17-24:22) and the Instruction of Amenemope Books Of Proverbs "Some old material from the ancient sages, some later material from the 6th century BCE or later, some material borrowed from the ancient Egyptian text called the Instructions of Amenemopet" Miller, Patrick D., "Deuteronomy" (John Knox Press, 1990) pp.2–3 Instructions Of Amenemope "Instruction of Amenemope (also called Instructions of Amenemopet, Wisdom of Amenemopet) is a literary work composed in Ancient Egypt, most likely during the Ramesside Period (ca. 1300–1075 BCE); it contains thirty chapters of advice for successful living, ostensibly written by the scribe Amenemope son of Kanakht as a legacy for his son." Lichtheim 1976, 146-149 Again the writer of Books Of Proverbs plagiarized from Instructions Of Amenemope because Proverbs was written 600years or later Before Christ and Instructions Of Amenemope was written 1300—1075 years Before Christ Again Checkmate! Apply the same to any other such material you come across. **yawns** The bible is clearly plagiarized, this is just the beginning. Wait let truthman2013 present the pagan origins of Trinity, wallahi you melt! 2 Likes |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by plainbibletruth: 7:11pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
Demmzy15:Looks like we are back to dates! You're lumping too many things together and confusing yourself. So you are trying to argue that if the Bible was supposedly copied from other works it's ok for the Quran to plagiarize. In other words you are saying that it doesn't matter that the Quran copied from other materials. Which means the Quran cannot claim originality. Interesting. |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 7:53pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
plainbibletruth: Oya lemme allow you use dating to refute. I'm waiting o You're lumping too many things together and confusing yourself. Lmaooooo is that the strategy you want to use and run?! So you are trying to argue that if the Bible was supposedly copied from other works it's ok for the Quran to plagiarize. In other words you are saying that it doesn't matter that the Quran copied from other materials. Which means the Quran cannot claim originality. Empty speculations as usual, you've failed to prove anything. I've said it from beginning, Islam didn't plagiarized but everything came from Allah, The All Knowing. I know you're trying to save yourself from humiliation, but that's too late. Any reasonable person reading surely knows you've failed. Go get a lif 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by plainbibletruth: 9:52pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
Demmzy15:If the stories found in the Quran already exist in some other writings and you still claim that "Islam didn't plagiarized but everything came from Allah" what can we say except to tell you that you have the right to believe whatever you can. Wherever that leads you is your ultimate responsibility. |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by truthman2013: 10:16pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
Demmzy15: ...I already told you that he won't address your post. He is such a featherhead that knows nothing about the faith he profess. With his moniker, one would think that he is such a compos mentis when it comes to the bible. Alas, a featherhead. I'll surely bring up my arguement whenever he is done playing hide and seek. ..truthman.. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by plainbibletruth: 10:57pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
The King Solomon and Queen of Sheba Story Only those who want to be distractive and deceptive will deny the fact that Mohammed lived in a heterogeneous setting in Arabia, with Christians, Jews and others living together. Mohammed’s references to these people in the Quran should at least silence any overzealous apologist of Islam who would want to claim that there couldn’t have been any influence of other religions and their materials on Mohammed. An example of Jewish influence is that of a story in sura 27:27-44 related by Mohammed that tells how King Solomon met with the Queen of Sheba. This story in the Quran is based on the ‘Targum’, a paraphrase of the Old Testament based on oral translations of Jewish history and scripture. The conspicuous similarity between the stories of the Quran and a targum written nearly 1,000 years earlier leaves one in no doubt as to where the Quran (Mohammed) got his plot from. No doubt Mohammed, or whatever his source was, trusted extra-canonical books, materials and stories more than the authentic ones such that books written centuries later than the originals were relied upon much more than the original ones. Mohammed therefore relied on other sources for the content of his Quran. |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 10:58pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
plainbibletruth:Thrash!  |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 11:18pm On Aug 04, 2015 |
plainbibletruth:Mr. Man you've failed again. The Jewish Encyclopedia states: "The First Targum, The Antwerp and Paris polyglots give a different and longer text than the London. The best edition is by De Lagarde (reprinted from the first Venice Bible) in "Hagiographa Chaldaice," Leipsic, 1873. The date of the first Targum is about 700AD Targum Sheni (the second [Targum]: date about 800AD), containing material not germane to the Esther story. This may be characterized as a genuine and exuberant midrash." "Esther", The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1905, Volume V, Funk & Wagnalls Company, p. 234. So from the above we can conclude that "Targum Sheni" was written some 150-200years after the Prophet Muhammad(sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam), so I hope you clearly know who copied. Also; "Outstanding among the stories interwoven into the Targum Sheni is the variegated description of Solomon's throne (1:2)..... Some of these motifs are also found in the Koran (27:20-40), and it has been suggested that the author [of Targum Sheni] also made use of Arabic sources." "Targum Sheni" , Encyclopaedia Judaica (CD-ROM Edition). You're seeing what a Jewish source says ba? Guy go and refute the plagiarism in your Bible. You can't just discredit the Qur'an, it's not possible. You hypocrisy has no boundary, imagine you claiming "targum written nearly 1,000 years earlier". You actually think I'm a dunce who would accept anything without durable facts? Smh! To read more http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBsheba.html 1 Like |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by plainbibletruth: 7:32am On Aug 05, 2015 |
Demmzy15: So you're quoting an Islamic source to make people accept their skewed position? Targum is not just one or two items but many. It forms part of the Jewish traditional literature, and is said to have originated as early as the time of the Second Temple. This is well before Christ. Maybe your dates may be for the Targums you have conveniently chosen but certainly not for all. |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 1:12pm On Aug 05, 2015 |
plainbibletruth:Truthman2013 this hypocrite said Encyclopedia Judaica is a Muslim work , What's your say on this?! Plainbibletruth you don't know anything, you're confused! 1 Like |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by truthman2013: 1:55pm On Aug 05, 2015 |
Demmzy15: ...I already told you that he won't address your post. He is such a featherhead that knows nothing about the faith he profess. With his moniker, one would think that he is such a compos mentis when it comes to the bible. Alas, a featherhead. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by plainbibletruth: 7:11am On Aug 06, 2015 |
The story of Jesus' Birth The Quran in sura 19:29-30 mentions that Jesus spoke when he was still in the cradle. This story is not found in the Bible. It was plagiarized by the writers of the Quran from an apocryphal fable written in the first or second century AD titled "The First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ". In the fable it states that: "Jesus spake even when he was in the cradle, and said I am Jesus the son of God. That word which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel Gabriel to thee... ..." The Quran however changed "son of God" to "slave (or servant) of Allah". Of course the 'switch' was done to fall in line with islam's rejection of Jesus as the Son of God. The plagiarism is nevertheless still evident. |
| Re: Where Did Mohammed’s Stories Come From? by Demmzy15(m): 3:00pm On Aug 18, 2015 |
plainbibletruth: What happened to it? The Quran in sura 19:29-30 mentions that Jesus spoke when he was still in the cradle. This story is not found in the Bible. Yes the Qur'an mentioned that, Jesus spoke to the crowd when they unjustly accused Mary. He vindicated his mother which is one of the greatest miracles Allah performed through Jesus. It was I warned you to stop using the phrase "plagiarized" When referring to the Qur'an. The bible clearly copied from pagans and remember you've not refuted that fact. Before you can claim the Qur'an copied from the infancy Gospel we have to know more this Gospel. Wikipedia states: Although this Gospel is thought to have originated from Syriac sources dating back to the fifth or sixth century, it has become known to European readers by way of an Arabic version published by Henry Sike in 1697 together with a Latin translation. The earliest known mention of the Gospel was by Isho'dad of Merv, a ninth-century Syrian church father, in his biblical commentary concerning the Gospel of Matthew. Notice the emphasis, we can conclude that: 1. It was written around the 5th-6th century. 2. It was written in Syraic not Arabic the language of Prophet Muhammad. 3. It was later translated to Arabic after the death of Prophet Muhammad to help Europeans. This three points has clearly refuted your nonsense. Even though this points has clearly refuted you, I want to add more "jara". You might counter my points by claiming the Infancy Gospel got to the Prophet Muhammad through oral transmission from his contact with a Coptic Christian who was one of his wives. The wife of Prophet Muhammad who's a known Copt who would have known this Infancy gospel can't teach him because the verse concerning Jesus speaking in the cradle is a Makkan verse. Mary-the Copt was sent to the Prophet in the seventh year of Hijrah and by that time this verse was already revealed! So this document predating Islam doesn't necessarily mean the Qur'an copied from it. Moreover the Catholic Encyclopedia states: The Hijaz [Arabian peninsula] had not been touched by Christian preaching. Hence organisation of the Christian church was neither to be expected nor found. New Catholic Encyclopaedia, The Catholic University of America, Washington D C, 1967, Vol. 1, pp. 721-722. Therefore my friend, you have to come up with something better. The Prophet Muhammad never and didn't plagiarize. In the fable it states that: "Jesus spake even when he was in the cradle, and said I am Jesus the son of God. That word which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel Gabriel to thee... ..." Then she pointed to him. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" "He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;" "And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salat (prayer), and Zakat, as long as I live." "And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest. "And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!" Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute). Qur'an 19:29-34 The version you presented above is the Arabic version of the the Infancy Gospel which was likely written after the death of Prophet Muhammad. Nevertheless, hope you can see the difference. [s]The Quran however changed "son of God" to "slave (or servant) of Allah". Of course the 'switch' was done to fall in line with islam's rejection of Jesus as the Son of God. The plagiarism is nevertheless still evident.[/s]Trash! Please the pagan origins of the bible is still hanging. You've been exposed once again. Compare the garbage you tried to compare the Qur'an with to the case of your Bible: (Proverbs 22:17-18):"Incline thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, And apply thine heart to my doctrine; For it is pleasant if thou keep them in thy belly, that they may be established together upon thy lips" (Amenemope, ch. 1):"Give thine ear, and hear what I say, And apply thine heart to apprehend; It is good for thee to place them in thine heart, let them rest in the casket of thy belly; That they may act as a peg upon thy tongue" This what you outright plagiarism. In fact this photocopying is of the first order. 1 Like 1 Share |
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