Hello peeps,

The past two weeks here on NL has seen a flurry of activities (nothing really new) targeting certain religions and ways of life.

So in the spirit of sparking an intellectual and spiritual discussion I am raising this thread so we can air our views.

Do you feel like what you believe in is the right thing and that all others are wrong or damned?   

In Ken Wilber's book, "A Brief History of Everything" he outlines three basic ethical/spiritual developmental stages that he outlines.

Egocentric - the viewpoint of the child. They are narcissistic. The most basic or immature way of relating to the world. Egocentric does not mean that these people think only about themselves, but they are incapable of thinking about themselves. This individual is unable to differentiate self from the rest of the world. Their lives are impulse driven. They feel that their pain, pleasure, perspectives are shared by all persons.

Sociocentric/Ethnocentric - My reality is shaped by the way I fit with the roles, scripts, rules, games, ideology, mythology of my peer group. If you are a member of my tribe, church, race, club, country then you are OK. You are acceptable. You are saved. If not, you be damned.

Worldcentric/Global - Another moving away from narcissism. This is the mature ego. A transcendence of self. The ability for critical thinking. You want to know what is right and fair, not just for yourself, but for all peoples. You espouse equal opportunity regardless of creed, sex, race, or other ways we classify human beings. Universal pluralism is embraced. This is a very recent development in human cultural evolution.

Why is your religion better than others?

maybe you shld start by telling us why atheism as a religion is better than other religions.

davidylan:

maybe you shld start by telling us why atheism as a religion is better than other religions.

don't you have to argue why atheism is a religion first?[quote][/quote]

Religions vary in their degree of idiocy,
but I reject them all.(so do i)
-Gene Roddenberry

bawomolo:

don't you have to argue why atheism is a religion first?

i dont need to, it already is unless you're living in denial.

davidylan:

i dont need to, it already is unless you're living in denial.

educate me about this atheist religion. What are the tenets of this religion? any holy places or prophets?

bawomolo:

educate me about this atheist religion. What are the tenets of this religion? any holy places or prophets?

you're living in denial, not all religions have holy places or prophets.

davidylan:

you're living in denial, not all religions have holy places or prophets.

really you mean there are no spiritual teachers?

anyway where is your religion better than others.

bawomolo:

really you mean there are no spiritual teachers?

anyway where is your religion better than others.

after you tell me why secularism is better than religion.

David can you give us a working definition of religion.

[b]A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.[/b]Religion is age old since the civilization came into existence. It began when human’s brain advanced to realize to have faith, and worship the systems of the society. Human lived in small groups, regulations and systems were formed to maintain discipline in the group. All small groups had own ideology that were obligatory to all group members. As they were too small in groups, system differed from group (society) to group. In order to initiate members to worship the system, an icon was formed that harmonized the ideology. Rituals were essential part that to be carried in occasions for rejuvenation. During this period their rituals were for natural resources icons like sun, moon, river, fire etc; spirits icons like group gods and character icon (idols) like devil or angel.


As I feel, ritual is a practice to follow the ideology and its inscription, Those who have faith in bible inscription are Christian and who have faith in Quoran are Muslims and have faith in veda are hindus. So Christianity is the system (religion) and Christians are society, bible is inscription and Jesus Christ is icon. A difference of opinion in society split up from Jews to Christianity or branches like Roman Catholic, Protestants, Orthodox Christians, Pentecostal or others.


So religion is a system of belief in society. A ritual is main part of religion that builds citizens of the society to trust, respect the ideology of the society. Each religion has its own inscription for its group. When number of followers grew and opted to join the group that resulted to expansion of particular religion. On the other hand in many cases conversion method by force or temptation was/ is also adopted to expand its wings

Chris, use google.

davidylan:

maybe you shld start by telling us why atheism as a religion is better than other religions.

How can Atheism be a religion? Religions worship imaginary Gods. Atheists don't believe in any God.

manmustwac:

How can Atheism be a religion? Religions worship imaginary Gods. Atheists don't believe in any God.

1. Please pay attention to the following application of simple logic.

2. Unbelief is itself still a form of Belief once that Unbelief or Belief is based solely on an unprovable assumption.

3. For example, If there are only two possible options (e.g. A and B),  then an unprovable Unbelieve in option [b]A automatically implies a believe in option B and vice versa.  Hence either way, Atheism inherently implies a believe in the non-existence of a Creator, since the existence or non existence of a Creator cannot be scientifically proven.

4. Bible believers cannot scientifically prove the existence of a creator, likewise Atheists cannot scientifically prove the non-existence of a Creator. That is why evolutionist/atheist try to avoid the issue about the origin of life, time,matter,reality and existence (how everything all began) ,  as trying to answer such a question implies an atheist "must" make an initial assumption of either the existence or non-existence of a Creator.  Unfortunately for the Atheist, making such an assumption automatically creates a burden of scientific proof for existence or non-existence of a Creator being to true or false accordingly.

5. Therefore my Atheist friends, that is the reason why Atheism itself is inherently a "faith based" secular religion.

@david
In an effort not to derail this thread I asked you for a definition so we can both be on the same page, what tenets of atheism makes it a religion?
And just to answer your question I don't really practice anything so I cannot say my religion is better than yours, I respect though that your personal experiences have made you the person you are, I know that if you were brought up some other way you would see things differently and that where I sit.
In summary we are a sum total of our environment and life experiences, I do not feel you are damned but yes I feel at times that you deny the obvious.
Those are my thoughts, over to you now, why do you think what you practice is better than mine?

@No2atheism
Hi,
I disagree with your sense of logic, what part of the scientific method entails proving a negative?
For instance I have to first assert that something exists and come up with scientific methods to prove my assertions before a scientific method can be used to prove that the negative is the case!
If you say out of intuition that a God exists then you have to give room for anyone with as much as a hunch to refute that claim! That will be applying logic in the right way.
For now though the issue on the thread is, why is what you believe better than what others believe?

Chrisbenogor:

@david
In an effort not to derail this thread I asked you for a definition so we can both be on the same page, what tenets of atheism makes it a religion?
And just to answer your question I don't really practice anything so I cannot say my religion is better than yours, I respect though that your personal experiences have made you the person you are, I know that if you were brought up some other way you would see things differently and that where I sit.
In summary we are a sum total of our environment and life experiences, I do not feel you are damned but yes I feel at times that you deny the obvious.
Those are my thoughts, over to you now, why do you think what you practice is better than mine?

I dont practice a religion Chris . . . i have repeated that a dozen times now. Christianity is NOT a religion but a personal relationship with Christ. I dont "practice" religion, i live a life in Christ Jesus . . . those are not one and the same thing.
I dont think it makes sense to say that christianity is better than unbelief . . . every man to himself.

daviddyjan:
I dont practice a religion Chris, i have repeated that a dozen times now. Christianity is NOT a religion but a personal relationship with Christ. I dont "practice" religion, i live a life in Christ Jesus, those are not one and the same thing.
I dont think it makes sense to say that christianity is better than unbelief, every man to himself.

Thank you for making it clearer.
Cheers.

@No2Atheism
Is the unbelief in the existence of the flying spaghetti monster a 'religion'?

2. Unbelief is itself still a form of Belief once that Unbelief or Belief is based solely on an unprovable assumption.

if unbelief is a form of belief then a bald head is an hairstyle.

A trick of most religious people is to claim they are not practicing a religion but a "way of life". Terms such as religion and myth are usually reserved for opposing religions. Hindu's belief they are practicing a philosophy and not a religion etc.


Secularism is not a religion by the way. Secularism encompasses many religions and atheism

Why is your religion better than others?

Because I am "The Emperor of Ice-Cream".

flying spaghetti monster,  , l like that one, muhaaahhhaaaahaaaa,  .

more like spongebob square pants ,

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Back to the explanation at hand, I really hate repeating myself when something is so fucking obvious.

All the same let me repeat myself since it seems the simple scientific and mental logic being explained by me seems to be too simple for your genius IQs to understand.


1. Science can be used to prove the existence or lack of existence of something ,  provided there is a valid scientific proof.


2. Something cannot exist and not exist at the same time, only one option can be true.


3. Hence assuming we have options A and B ,


4. Let's assume there is a scientific proof called "TEST" that can be used to test for the existence of the items A or B.


5. Assume there is a group of people who accept existence of A as true, i.e. they believe existence of A is true, even before it is scientifically proved to exist.


6. Also Assume there is another group of people who accept existence of B as true, i.e. they believe existence of B is true, even before it is scientifically proved to exist.


7. Now assume an unbiased person applies the scientific proof called TEST to both A and B, and also assume that the TEST proves that only B exists, then it means.


8. Assume that despite the result of the TEST, there are still small groups of people who still believe in the existence of A, then it means that:

-  Existence of B is always going to be both fact based and proof based.

-  It is scientifically proofed that A does not exist.

-  Existence of A is not fact based, is not proof based but it is faith based


9. Now assume there another scenario in which there is no scientific proof at all that can be used to proof existence of either A or B, then it means that:

-  It can never be scientifically proofed that A exists or not.

-  Existence of A is not fact based, is not proof based but it is faith based

-  It can never be scientifically proofed that B exists or not.

-  Existence of B is not fact based, is not proof based but it is faith based



10. Finally assume that:

      -        A ==  Non-existence of a Creator  == Atheism

      -        B ==  Existence of a Creator == Creationism

      -        There is no scientific method to proof whether or not A is true or not or whether B is true or not.


Therefore in this last scenario, it becomes easy to see that:


- Existence of Creator is faith based.
- Non-Existence of Creator is also faith based.

such that since there is no scientific proof that can be used in this case, then

Lack of faith in Existence of Creator = Presence of faith in the Non-existence of a Creator

and

Lack of faith in Non-Existence of a Creator = Presence of faith in the Existence of a Creator


Thus that is why I said that:


Belief in a Creator == Unbelief in Atheism == Faith based system.

Unbelief in a Creator == Belief in Atheism == Faith based system.


I HOPE THIS FINALY SIMPLE EXPLANATION OF THE LOGIC HAS BEEN ENOUGH FOR THE GENIUSES OF BAWOMOLO, MANTRAA AND CHRISBENOGOR.

@No2atheism
It is funny that you cannot see the mighty flaws in your logic. I did not even bother reading past number one of your post because that statement is flawed.

1. Science can be used to prove the existence or lack of existence of something, provided there is a valid scientific proof.

This is a very wrong logical statement and that is the reason you are getting flawed answers. How can you prove the existence of something you do not know? Can you not see the gaping hole there?
If we are to test a sample for the existence of a compound say Nacl for instance we first have to know what Nacl is, what its attributes are and what lack of Nacl will be like, capeesh?
Science cannot be used to prove the existence or non existence of something that cannot be explained scientifically!
So can you give us something better than kindergarten logic?

No2Atheism:

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Back to the explanation at hand, I really hate repeating myself when something is so fucking obvious.

All the same let me repeat myself since it seems the simple scientific and mental logic being explained by me seems to be too simple for your genius IQs to understand.


1. Science can be used to prove the existence or lack of existence of something ,  provided there is a valid scientific proof.

That's not quite right. Science isn't used to prove. It falsifies, yes. Not prove.

2. Something cannot exist and not exist at the same time, only one option can be true.

Um, not quite either. Particles can be in a state of indeterminacy.

You might have to revise your over all argument, as two of the premises you postulated aren't right, and that will affect anything built on them.

I HOPE THIS FINALY SIMPLE EXPLANATION OF THE LOGIC HAS BEEN ENOUGH FOR THE GENIUSES OF BAWOMOLO, MANTRAA AND CHRISBENOGOR.

No, really, you need to revise your "simple explanation of logic".

KAG (how u dey, , did u miss me, yes i missed you too) and Chrisbenogor are just having a play on words ,

I give up , I can't make my explanations any simpler ,

So let's just call it a day while u continue to believe that you do not beleive in in the "flying sphagetti monster",

Adios for now, i have to get some high level mathemetics study done,

Hmmmmmmmmm. Lord show us the way and guide us to follow it aright.

.

Yall got me all mixed up!
Why cant we all be free thinkers?

Man & woman or Adam & Eve started life not knowing what their potentials were. They were eating already made foods from trees and they had this notion that everything in life is free and given to them by a divine being i.e. God. So when the foods from trees started running out they felt the giver is no more happy with them, so they moved on searching for foods else. The bible account told us that their were other people in the land of the nod or north, so the bible is a mythological tales of the people of Israel, just like the ones from Oyo, Benin empires etc. I believe God exist and that mankind is always in search for things in a wrong way, just a few could really get it right. In the spiritual plane all paths leads to damnation but the only path that leads to God is narrow and always hidden hence people search the wrong places looking for it, not knowing that it is hidden in you. When you believe this, you are above religion and all the attendant distractions of this world. The straight and narrow path was discovered by great men in the QURAN, BIBLE, ECKANKAR, BUDDHISM etc,. and they preached according to what they were given. The problem is not always the founders but it is in the followers who cannot truly fathom the message he received without aspiring to get to the source of the messages, for ALL religion says "LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THY SELF". There is nothing wrong in beleiving (AS LONG AS it is between you and what you believed in) but there is everything wrong in beleiving that what you beleived in, is better. That is PRIDE.

Every human culture has theology but only Christianity and Islam insist they are the only way.