Although I can't say for certain when the war between the Igbos and Yorubas started, I know it's been ongoing long before I was born. While it’s not a full-fledged war, with fighting and whatnot, there is no doubt that the two Nigerian tribes are constantly at war. From the subtle, to the “in your face” insults they throw at each other. It is even difficult for each to refer to the other by their tribe. While the Igbos refer to the Yorubas as “Ndi Ofe mmanu”, which means “Oily soup people”, the Yorubas call the Igbos, “Ajeokuta ma mu omi”.This literally means “To eat a stone and not drink water.” This is because the Igbo people are known for eating eba and/or akpu (both cassava meals), which though not necessarily made hard, are not as soft as how the Yoruba people make theirs.

We are so accustomed to pointing out the differences between the two tribes that we fail to recognize the similarities that they share. While the two cultures and languages differ, there are similarities in the languages, even though little. For instance while the Yoruba word for mouth is “ẹnu”, the Igbos refer to it as “ọnụ’'. Other similar words are:

English: Ear
Yoruba: Eti
Igbo: Ntị


English: Nose
Yoruba: imú
Igbo: Imi

English: Stone
Yoruba: Okuta
Igbo: Okute

English: Amen
Yoruba: Ase
Igbo: Ise

English: A Twin
Yoruba: Ejire
Igbo: Ejime/Ejima

English: What
Yoruba: Kini
Igbo: Gini

English: He/she said
Yoruba: Oso
Igbo: Osi

 

We humans tend to focus on what makes us different from our neighbours, friends, family and even foes. Making the effort to see the similarities we share with others requires almost no energy and it leaves little room for criticism of those who are not like us. When we focus on differences, we tend to become judgmental; measuring others against us, our culture, traditions and standards. Nigeria is a multi-cultural nation, which is hard enough as it is. Instead of focusing on the different things that we think make us superior to our neighbours, why not focus on the similarities that make us one nation? We should shun prejudice, embrace our similarities and make Nigeria a better place.


http://www.daintysworld..nl/2015/09/igbos-vs-yorubas-simililarities-in.html?m=1

Nice efforts OP, lalasticlala, ishilove, fulaman, bigfrancis, radoillo, take this to homepage, although those homepage boys likes disfacing Lagos and every good thread. I have confidence in you, lalasticlala, eze ndi nairalandi. Bianu le, oyin oma ndioke Mod, omu chineke!

following

following

absoluteSuccess:
Nice efforts OP, lalasticlala, ishilove, fulaman, bigfrancis, radoillo, take this to homepage, although those homepage boys likes disfacing Lagos and every good thread. I have confidence in you, lalasticlala, eze ndi nairalandi. Bianu le, oyin oma ndioke Mod, omu chineke!

Radoillo cannot take threads to homepage na. He's not a mod.


On the topic: Yea, it has been a well-known fact in linguistic circles for a very long time now - that Igbo and Yoruba are 'cousin' languages. Not that long ago, a book about it came out, 'How Igbo and Yoruba Became Different Languages' by Bolaji Aremo.

absoluteSuccess:
Nice efforts OP, lalasticlala, ishilove, fulaman, bigfrancis, radoillo, take this to homepage, although those homepage boys likes disfacing Lagos and every good thread. I have confidence in you, lalasticlala, eze ndi nairalandi. Bianu le, oyin oma ndioke Mod, omu chineke!

Bia nwoke m, who taught you how to speak Igbo?

That was some good Igbo up there. Though it was sounding like Ikwerre Igbo...'omu Chineke' (umu chineke)!

It is very likely Yoruba language developed out from a spin-off dialect of Igbo long time ago, along the linguistic developmental line of Igbo to Igala to Olukwumi to Yoruba during an upward-westward migration of peoples from East towards the West. There is a reason olukwumi, aka old Yoruba language, isn't found anywhere in modern Yoruba land but right in Igbo land indicating a development of the proto-dialect within Igbo land and a likely migration of the speakers out to modern day Yoruba land where the language evolved to what it is today. This is even more plausible given the fact that Igbo civilization (Igbo Ukwu) is older than the earliest Yoruba civilization (Ife).

@OP...you forgot to include in your list 'abeokuta' which carries a similar meaning in igbo as 'ebe okwute' meaning 'place of rock', indicating a possibility of initial Olukwumi-Igbo settlers that settled in the area coming fresh from Igboland (most likely delta Igbo region) and speaking the oldest version of olukwumi still laced with Igbo words and pronunciations, which changed over time as the speakers lost direct contact with their kith and kin in the east over the years. Some theories say the Olukwumi in delta state were escapees from Ondo or is it Osun state during some war that took place at that time. Even if this were to be true, there must have been a reason these escapees chose to head back east (Igbo land) rather than to other Yoruba-speaking areas they would have easily assimilated into. I guess they chose to return to the land of their ancestors they had originated from where they were most assured of their safety. There could be other possibilities explaining the presence of Olukwumi in Delta Igbo, one of which I have just mentioned, which further research needs to be carried out on.

Another strong fact backing this suggestion is the fact that a deep introspection of similar Igbo and Yoruba words show an often easier or peppered down quality in Yoruba words than Igbo words and it is often known that children languages that evolve from a parent language are often easier to pronounce, speak, spell and/or learn. Take Spanish, Portuguese, Italian etc. (children languages) and their parent language, Latin, for example. During medieval times, Latin happened to be the language of class and the rich. It was a mark of grandeur which only the elite of the society spoke properly well. They had the privilege of going to school where they had Latin teachers teach them how to speak the language properly. However, the low-class and peasants of the society, however, could not speak proper Latin and often spoke bad Latin aka Pidgin Latin such that variants of this Pidgin Latin developed to Spanish, French, Portuguese, Italian, Romanian etc. that we have today. Latin words, when compared with words from its children languages, tend to be longer, deeper and albeit more complicated in pronunciation and writing. Of course old English (early language of the angles, Saxons and jutes) is more complicated than modern English. In the same respect, similar Igbo vs Yoruba words exhibiting the characteristics of Latin vs Spanish/French etc are Egwugwu vs Egungun (a type of masquerade), Ogwu vs Ogun (charm), Mmiri vs Omi (water), Okwute vs Okuta etc. Notice the dropping of the quite difficult to pronounce 'gw' and 'kw' consonants in Yoruba and replacement with letters 'g' and 'k' only and addition of the nasal feature of 'n', thus making the word pronunciation easier. Yoruba language is often said to be easier to learn than Igbo and Igbo is characterized by double consonants such as 'gw', 'kw', 'ch', 'gh', etc. many of which are lacking in Yoruba language but interestingly found in Igala language (Yoruboid), which is a boundary language between the Yorubas to the West and Igbos to the South.

I would love to think of Yoruba as a likely language off-shoot of a very divergent archaic Igbo dialect. Some people may not like what I wrote but we need to start taking at things from a different point of view.

Abeokuta means 'Under the Rock' and not 'Place of Rock'.
I believe the Igbo would be 'Okpuru Okwute', not 'Ebe Okwute'.

Wulfruna:
Abeokuta means 'Under the Rock' and not 'Place of Rock'.
I believe the Igbo would be 'Okpuru Okwute', not 'Ebe Okwute'.

Thanks. It is possible that the meaning of 'abe' in Yoruba may have changed over time as the meaning of words in languages tend to change with time. Ekwensu which is readily interpreted as 'devil' in Igbo language today did not mean 'Satan' in the past before the advent of Christianity.

bigfrancis21:
It is very likely Yoruba language developed out from a spin-off dialect of Igbo long time ago, along the linguistic developmental line of Igbo to Igala to Olukwumi to Yoruba during an upward-westward migration of peoples from East towards the West. There is a reason olukwumi, aka old yoruba language, isn't found anywhere in modern yoruba land but right in igbo land indicating a development of the proto-dialect within Igbo land and a likely migration of the speakers out to modern day yoruba land where the language evolved to what it is today. This is even more plausible given the fact that Igbo civilization is older than the earliest Yoruba civilization (Ife).

@OP...you forgot to include in your list 'abeokuta' which carries a similar meaning in igbo as 'ebe okwute' meaning 'place of rock', indicating a possibility of initial Olukwumi-Igbo settlers that settled in the area coming fresh from Igboland (most likely delta Igbo region) and speaking the oldest version of olukwumi still laced with Igbo words and pronunciations, which changed over time as the speakers lost direct contact with their kith and kins in the east over the years. Some theories say the olukwumi in delta state were escapees from Ondo or is it Osun state during some war that took place at that time. Even if this were to be true, there must have been a reason these escapees chose to head back east (Igbo land) rather than to other Yoruba-speaking areas they would have easily assimilated into. I guess they chose to possibly return to the land of their ancestors where they had originated from where they were most assured of their safety. However, there could be other possibilities explaining the presence of Olukwumi in Delta Igbo, one of which i have just mentioned, which one need to look deeper into.

Another strong fact backing this suggestion is the fact that a deep introspection of similar Igbo and Yoruba words show an often easier or peppered down quality in Yoruba words than Igbo words and it is often known that children languages that evolve from a parent language are often easier to pronounce, speak, spelll and/or learn. Take spanish, portuguese, italian etc. (children languages) and their parent language, Latin, for example. During the medieval times, Latin happened to be the language of class and the rich. It was a mark of grandeur which only the elite of the society spoke properly well. The low-class and peasants of the society, however, could not speak the language properly and often spoke bad Latin aka Pidgin Latin such that variants of this Pidgin Latin developed to Spanish, French, Portuguese, Italian, Romanian etc. that we have today. Latin words, when compared with words from its children languages, tend to be longer, deeper and albeit more complicated in pronunciation and writing. Of course old English (early language of the angles, saxons and jutes) is more complicated than modern English. In the same respect, similar Igbo vs Yoruba words exhibiting the characteristics of Latin vs Spanish/French etc are Egwugwu vs Egungun (a type of masquerade), Ogwu vs Ogun (charm), Mmiri vs Omi (water) etc. Notice the dropping of the quite difficult to pronounce 'gw' consonant in Yoruba and replacement with letter 'g' only and addition of the nasal feature of 'n', thus making the word pronunciation easier.

I would love to think of Yoruba as a likely language off-shoot of a very divergent archaic Igbo dialect. Some people may not like what I wrote but we need to start taking at things from a different point of view.

Well, this is one heck of a speculation. The linguistic evidence doesn't quite support this. What linguistic evidence suggests is that Igbo and Yoruba (plus Idoma, Nupe, Edo, etc) are sister languages that diverged from a common ancestor-language, i.e., one sister language did not grow out of the other (Igbo did not grow out Yoruba, Nupe did not grow out of Idoma, etc, but all sprang apart from this common linguistic ancestor.)

Illustrating with an European example: French, Spanish, Italian and Romanian are also sister-languages that developed out of one proto-language. This doesn't mean that Italian grew out of Spanish, or that Romanian is a 'spin-off' of archaic French. They all separately grew out of one proto-language.

Radoillo:


Well, this is one heck of a speculation. The linguistic evidence doesn't quite support this. What linguistic evidence suggests is that Igbo and Yoruba (plus Idoma, Nupe, Edo, etc) are sister languages that diverged from a common ancestor-language, i.e., one sister language did not grow out of the other (Igbo did not grow out Yoruba, Nupe did not grow out of Idoma, etc, but all sprang apart from this common linguistic ancestor.)

Illustrating with an European example: French, Spanish, Italian and Romanian are also sister-languages that developed out of one proto-language. This doesn't mean that Italian grew out of Spanish, or that Romanian is a 'spin-off' of archaic French. They all separately grew out of one proto-language.

I wouldn't regard what I have written as mere speculation. Just because it may not have been commonly heard of till now does not mean it might not be the truth. A lot has taken place in the past which have been lost in the annals of history because our ancestors barely kept written records of events and modern-day peoples are forced to get a tiny bit glimpse of the past from oral records which are known to be garnished with half-truths as they pass down from generation to generation.

You made mention of a proto-language, could you come up with evidence of what this proto language from whence Igbo, Yoruba, Igala, Idoma etc likely developed from? Where are the speakers of such language existing currently? What happened to this language? Or are you just limiting your theories to just what someone else has written? I still maintain that it is possible Yoruba language developed from Igbo language or developed at a later time after Igbo did from a very archaic Igbo dialect given that Igbo civilization is 300 years older than the first Yoruba civilization of Ife. I used the example of Latin vs Spanish/French/Italian languages etc. to buttress my point that the children languages developed from a parent language, which sadly is a dead language today with no native speakers and only kept alive by the Catholic church.

A good example of a language that developed from Igbo language would be the Ekpeye language which is quite Igboid but very different on its own to be classified as an Igbo dialect. Given the lack of decent mutuality between Ekpeye and regular Igbo dialects, Ekpeye stands as a language of its own.

Until you come up with evidence of this so-called proto-language for Igbo, Yoruba language etc, I would regard that as mere theory devoid of tangible proof. At least evidence of a parent language for Spanish, French etc exists.

I think Africans need to start thinking outside the box to a world of different possibilities out there.

Big Francis, there are Yoruba dialects with the Gw, Gh, Kw sounds like Okun, Owo etc
And Igala is not a border language. It is in my opinion a South Western Yoruba dialect that had developed in Isolation.

The amala-eaters did not originate from the akpu-eaters. Its impossible. While the amala-eaters built huge civilization centuries before the advent of the Europeans, the akpu-eaters were living in dug up holes all across South East Nigeria. In fact, the Oyo Empire created by the amala-eaters is considered one of the biggest pre-colonial civilizations in Africa. The amala people's language is far more comprehensive and far more detailed than akpu people's language for it to be an off-shoot of it. The Most of the akpu-people originated from president day Cameroun they are actually descendants of present day Efiks/Ibibios. The rest of them originated from Benin via the Onitsha axis. All those so called Delta Igbos are actually descendants of Benin. The so called Olunkunmis are brothers of Itshekiris who originated from Ondo State - they are NOT akpu-eaters. The amala people MOSTLY came into present day Nigeria via Benin Republic and Northern Nigerian through Kwara. Kwara used to be Hausa-speaking until the Oyo-empire invaded and colonized it. Most of the Amala-eaters in Kwara, Kogi, Northern Oyo used to be Hausa speakers before the advent of the Oyo Empire.

scholes0:
Big Francis, there are Yoruba dialects with the Gw, Gh, Kw sounds like Okun, Owo etc
And Igala is not a border language. It is in my opinion a South Western Yoruba dialect that had developed in Isolation.

I want you to consider this: why does the occurrence of the gw, gh and kw consonants disappear gradually as one moves away from the east towards the west? Why are these consonants nearly absent on the extreme western flank of the Igbo to Yoruba continuum? Can you imagine this from a vantage point of view?

Those consonants you mentioned as present in Okun and Owo dialects are however not considered in the official Yoruba alphabet. Those consonants may have most likely been adopted by the speakers of those dialects from neighbouring non-yoruba dialects that had them. Or better still, the consonants were dropped as early proto-yoruba speakers expanded and migrated westwards between the 8th and 10th centuries.

The so called Igbo-Ukwu civilization of the akpu-eating people was not really a civilization. All they found was a few pottery with decent intricate designs. That a civilization does not make. But nobody disputes the civilization of the amala-eaters. Even those of us who love to hate them admit that it was very substantial. A civilization that spread all the way to current day Ghana is not something to be minimized by claiming that akpu-eaters who were living inside dug up holes somehow spurn this people and culture. Again, the bulk of the amala-eaters have their original somewhere in Benin Republic, they carried the language (known today as Yoruba) into Nigeria from the WEST. The claim of an original from the SE of the akpu people is quite laughable to be honest.

IamAtribalist:
The amala-eaters did not originate from the akpu-eaters. Its impossible. While the amala-eaters built huge civilization centuries before the advent of the Europeans, the akpu-eaters were living in dug up holes all across South East Nigeria. In fact, the Oyo Empire created by the amala-eaters is considered one of the biggest pre-colonial civilizations in Africa. The amala people's language is far more comprehensive and far more detailed than akpu people's language for it to be an off-shoot of it. The Most of the akpu-people originated from president day Cameroun they are actually descendants of present day Efiks/Ibibios. The rest of them originated from Benin via the Onitsha axis. All those so called Delta Igbos are actually descendants of Benin. The so called Olunkunmis are brothers of Itshekiris who originated from Ondo State - they are NOT akpu-eaters. The amala people MOSTLY came into present day Nigeria via Benin Republic and Northern Nigerian through Kwara. Kwara used to be Hausa-speaking until the Oyo-empire invaded and colonized it. Most of the Amala-eaters in Kwara, Kogi, Northern Oyo used to be Hausa speakers before the advent of the Oyo Empire.

The first Igbo civilization of Igbo Ukwu came into fore in the 9th century when iron casting and bronze casting were flourishing and the Igbo-ukwu artworks were created, at a time when Europe was still in the dark ages with no visible progress, and of such great quality unrivalled by no European artwork of that time. The Igbos also built pyramids which no Yoruba tribe was documented to have built. Ife was to establish itself 300 years later.

When we speak of great African empires, the Bini empire comes readily into mind, with its influence stretching over thousand of miles, across some parts of Yoruba land to Lagos (Eko in Esan dialect). Oyo empire does not even come close to the Bini empire or the influence that it wielded.

IamAtribalist:
The so called Igbo-Ukwu civilization of the akpu-eating people was not really a civilization. All they found was a few pottery with decent intricate designs. That a civilization does not make. But nobody disputes the civilization of the amala-eaters. Even those of us who love to hate them admit that it was very substantial. A civilization that spread all the way to current day Ghana is not something to be minimized by claiming that akpu-eaters who were living inside dug up holes somehow spurn this people and culture. Again, the bulk of the amala-eaters have their original somewhere in Benin Republic, they carried the language (known today as Yoruba) into Nigeria from the WEST. The claim of an original from the SE of the akpu people is quite laughable to be honest.

When this becomes an established and published fact, maybe only then will you realize your folly.

bigfrancis21:


I want you to consider this: why does the occurrence of the gw, gh and kw consonants disappear gradually as one moves away from the east towards the west? Why are these consonants nearly absent on the extreme western flank of the Igbo to Yoruba continuum? Can you imagine this from a vantage point of view?

Those consonants you mentioned as present in Okun and Owo dialects are however not considered in the official Yoruba alphabet. Those consonants may have most likely been adopted by the speakers from neighbouring non-yoruba dialects that had them. Or better still, the consonants were dropped as early proto-yoruba speakers expanded and migrated westwards between the 8th and 10th centuries.

Many of these sounds are from Language contacts with neighboring groups, as opposed to being sounds that gradually appear or disappear across a dialect continuum (which is what you are suggesting ?)

bigfrancis21:


The first Igbo civilization of Igbo Ukwu came into fore in the 9th century when iron casting and bronze casting were flourishing and the Igbo-ukwu artworks were created, at a time when Europe was still in the dark ages with no visible progress, and of such great quality unrivalled by no European artwork of that time. The Igbos also built pyramids which no Yoruba tribe was documented to have built. Ife was to establish itself 300 years later.

When we speak of great African empires, the Bini empire comes readily into mind, with its influence stretching over thousand of miles, across some parts of Yoruba land to Lagos (Eko in Esan dialect). Oyo empire does not even come close to the Bini empire or the influence that it wielded.

Where is the proof of this pyramids? (Show pictures of the pyramid and please not some mound built by ants -Thank you) STOP lying. Yes the artifacts date back 9th centuries but it was nothing but a village civilization. This artefacts were only found in one spot in current day Anambra. Where are the other artifacts in other parts of the even the SE that should a widespread civilization? And what is so special about a 9th century village civilization when Nok culture that spreads through the Plateau of North Central Nigeria dates back to 1000BC?

No one is saying the amala-people's empire was more significant than the Bini empire (even though it was definitely more wide spread geographically), just stating a simple fact that the amala eaters' civilization is far much more significant that the akpu-eaters' village civilization known as Igbo Ukwu. QED.

In the Yoruba-Igala-Olukumi-Itsekiri language cluster, there are 23 consonants shared by all.

Olukumi has 21
Igala has 23
Yoruba has 18-21 depending on dialect
Itsekiri has 20

All these languages have Open syllabic systems, meaning consonants typically do not end words, except they are nasal (nasal m and n)
All have seven oral and five nasal vovels.
However some of these have phonological mutations that give them there distinctiveness, for example

Igala sometimes substitute the Yoruba "Sh" for "Ch"
Like for example
isu for uchu - yam
isẹ for uchẹ - work
se for che - do

"r" for "l" like
ara for ala - body
erun for elu - five

Same goes for some innovations in Itsekiri, Olukumi, and other Edo languages outside of Nigeria.

Many of these differences in Igala (Including Ebu and Ogugu), Olukumi etc, are as a result of language contact with neighbouring groups.
Olukumi borrowed "Z" from language contact with Igbos, The Eastern Yorubas and Itsekiris got "Gh" "Gw" "Ny" etc from the Binis, while the Igalas got some modifications from Edos, Igbos and probably Idomas/Ebiras.

bigfrancis21:


When this becomes an established and published fact, maybe only then will you realize your folly.

Not likely because it defies logic and known migration patterns. Those of us who are conversant with Nigerian/African cultures know that phonetic semblance does not an origin story make. The akpu-eaters entered Nigerian from Cameroun - and became Efik/Ibibios before the became Igbos. The amala-eaters entered from Benin Republic with their language (known today as Yoruba) and expanded Northward towards Oyo and Kwara. Then their Empire spanned back west past Benin Rep. (again), towards Togo and current day Ghana. So tell me how did the amala eaters and the akpu-eaters share a common origin? You are not making sense, dude.

IamAtribalist:


Not likely because it defies logic and known migration patterns. Those of us who are conversant with Nigerian/African cultures know that phonetic semblance does not an origin story make. The akpu-eaters entered Nigerian from Cameroun - and became Efik/Ibibios before the became Igbos. The amala-eaters entered from Benin Republic with their language (known today as Yoruba) and expanded Northward towards Oyo and Kwara. Then their Empire spanned back west past Benin Rep. (again), towards Togo and current day Ghana. So tell me how did the amala eaters and the akpu-eaters share a common origin? You are not making sense, dude.

@bold...isn't the ancestors of the Yorubas supposed to be Oduduwa (i.e.the bini prince Elkhaderlan) who supposedly 'fell' from the sky? Where did the Yoruba migration from Benin republic supposedly take place?

IamAtribalist:


Where is the proof of this pyramids? (Show pictures of the pyramid and please not some mound built by ants -Thank you) STOP lying. Yes the artifacts date back 9th centuries but it was nothing but a village civilization. This artefacts were only found in one spot in current day Anambra. Where are the other artifacts in other parts of the even the SE that should a widespread civilization? And what is so special about a 9th century village civilization when Nok culture that spreads through the Plateau of North Central Nigeria dates back to 1000BC?

No one is saying the amala-people's empire was more significant than the Bini empire (even though it was definitely more wide spread geographically), just stating a simple fact that the amala eaters' civilization is far much more significant that the akpu-eaters' village civilization known as Igbo Ukwu. QED.

https://www.nairaland.com/2152949/ancient-igbo-pyramids-nsude-pyramids

That's the evidence that you need. It only involved a little google search.

I'm going to try and avoid a long-drawn out argument over this, because I do not think it is at all necessary. This is something that better qualified professors and PhDs of linguistics have thoroughly dissected since before the 1960s. If you have any serious interest in knowing what the academic opinion on language evolution in West Africa is, you could search for the literature, and then make informed speculations - 'cause the speculations you're making right now really aren't informed, to be honest. Someone on the opposite side could as well say that Igbo is a 'spin-off' from archaic Yoruba, or a 'spin-off' from archaic Idoma and his argument would be just as 'convincing' as your own.

Concerning parent languages/protolanguages: You have to understand that Latin is a very, very rare case of a proto-language 'surviving' (Inverted commas because Latin isn't really a living language). Usually proto-languages don't tend to survive as identifiable languages alongside the languages they gave rise to. It's like a cell that has undergone cell division - which of the resulting cells is the mother cell?

Latin only survived because it was the medium of a lively rich literature and became an elitist language in western Europe. Otherwise, it too will be dead, and we would be here asking: "Where is the protolanguage? If you can't show me, then it's all speculation." Yea, I can't show you concrete written or spoken evidence of the following proto-languages: Proto-IndoEuropean, proto-Slavic, proto-Semitic, proto-Bantu, etc. But scholars KNOW they existed because languages carry clues in their root-words that enable linguistic experts to partially or fully reconstruct their ancestors. Linguists have successfully reconstructed the proto-Indo-European language ( the ancestor of all the major languages spoken in Europe, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and Northern India). They have reconstructed it to the point where they can actually compile dictionaries of proto-Indo-European and actually SPEAK IT - even though the language died out thousands of years ago, leaving no material evidence, except for clues in its offspring languages.

My point is that: even though there are no written/spoken evidence left of the proto-language that gave rise to Igbo, Yoruba, etc, linguists KNOW that such a language existed, because of the information they can glean from the root-words and the structure of the off-spring languages. They also have an idea of where that language was most likely spoken, based on the the geographical spread of the current speakers of Yoruba, Igbo, Idoma etc. The proto-language was most likely spoken in the general area where Igboland, Yorubaland (including Igalaland), Idomaland, Nupeland, Ebiraland, Edoland (including Esan, Afemai etc) almost touch, or almost border on one another's territory. And that is the Middle Belt (Niger-Benue Confluence area). From that general area, the branches that developed into Yoruba, Edo and Igbo (collectively called YEAI) struck out to the southwest, the southcentral and the southeast respectively. The branches that developed into Nupe and Idoma (collectively called NOI) struck out to the west and the east respectively.

I think the picture the linguists painted is very credible. However if you want to hold on to the unsubstantiated view of Igbo giving birth to Yoruba, then whaddaheck, it's a free word, heh?

bigfrancis21:


@bold...isn't the ancestors of the Yorubas supposed to be Oduduwa (i.e.the bini prince Elkhaderlan) who supposedly 'fell' from the sky? Where did the Yoruba migration from Benin republic supposedly take place?

are you daft? Do you really believe some guy fell from the sky? The Binis are Nok(ians) who migrated South and took on the language (old Urhobo) of the majority tribe in Niger Delta at the time. The Noks (and by extension the Binis) are the original Nigerians. Everyone else entered from somewhere. The so called Hausoids came in from Niger (kneejare), akpu-eaters from Cameroun and later from Bini; the amala-eaters from somewhere West Africa probably Benin Rep (and also from Niger (some say Sudan)). When the amala-eaters came into Nigeria the saw that the Bini's were already established hence the 'story' that connects them to Bini.

scholes0:
In the Yoruba-Igala-Olukumi-Itsekiri language cluster, there are 23 consonants shared by all.

Olukumi has 21
Igala has 23
Yoruba has 18-21 depending on dialect
Itsekiri has 20

All these languages have Open syllabic systems, meaning consonants typically do not end words, except they are nasal (nasal m and n)
All have seven oral and five nasal vovels.
However some of these have phonological mutations that give them there distinctiveness, for example

Igala sometimes substitute the Yoruba "Sh" for "Ch"
Like for example
isu for uchu - yam
isẹ for uchẹ - work
se for che - do

"r" for "l" like
ara for ala - body
erun for elu - five

Same goes for some innovations in Itsekiri, Olukumi, and other Edo languages outside of Nigeria.

Many of these differences in Igala (Including Ebu and Ogugu), Olukumi etc, are as a result of language contact with neighbouring groups.
Olukumi borrowed "Z" from language contact with Igbos, The Eastern Yorubas and Itsekiris got "Gh" "Gw" "Ny" etc from the Binis, while the Igalas got some modifications from Edos, Igbos and probably Idomas/Ebiras.

What you just put up there is further evidence that supports the Yoruba from Igbo hypothesis. Analyze this:

In Igbo alphabet, there are 28 solid consonants. As we more upwards-westwards towards the extreme western flank of Yoruba land, we first encounter Igala which has 23 consonants (as provided by you), then Olukwumi 21 consonants and lastly Yoruba with 18 consonants on average. This is in line with the consonant-dropping feature of children languages from the original parent language I had earlier mentioned and the character-dropping characteristic of children languages during an evolution from a parent language. Igbo>Igala>Olukwumi>Yoruba. The fact that Olukwumi (old Yoruba) has more consonants than proper Yoruba itself further suggests a likely evolution of yoruba proper from Olukwumi, which may have developed right within Igboland. Igbo language ranks highest of all these languages in the number of consonants that it possesses.

If at all there was a proto-language, it is more likely Igbo language is closest to this language than Yoruba, Igala, Idoma etc.

Take a look at this image evidence below comparing Latin words (parent words) with the children language words and notice the remarkable shortening of the words present in the children languages or dropping of certain consonants present in Latin altogether by these children languages.



Of all Romance languages, Italian is said to be the closest to Latin in context and vocabulary as can be seen in the image above, just as Igbo may be the closest to the so-called proto parent language of southern Nigeria languages.

Igbo Alphabet: 36 letters (28 consonants and 8 vowels)


Yoruba Alphabet: 25 letters (18 consonants and 7 vowels)

bigfrancis21:


https://www.nairaland.com/2152949/ancient-igbo-pyramids-nsude-pyramids

That's the evidence that you need. It only involved a little google search.

Not impressed. - you don't need a civilization to built that - a crew of 12 men would finish that in a week at most. My little nephew and niece build more impressive sand structures when they go the the beach. Even the 'pyramids' (mounds) in Zimbabwe are far more impressive. Now see the Egyptian Pyramid shown below - now that takes civilization - 10s of thousands of man hours.

IamAtribalist:


Not impressed. - you don't need a civilization to built that - a crew of 12 men would finish that in a week at most. My little nephew and niece build more impressive sand structures when they go the the beach. Even the 'pyramids' (mounds) in Zimbabwe are far more impressive. Now see the Egyptian Pyramid shown below - now that takes civilization - 10s of thousands of man hours.

Your being impressed does not even matter to the crux of the matter at hand neither does it make a tad difference. The fact is no group of people without a civilization, structure and order can come together to build structures that stand the wear and tear of time. Given your glorification of the Oyo 'civilization', one would expect massive pyramids or structures as evidence of this 'great' civilization, but unfortunately none whatsoever were built.

no buddy....I don't think Igbos have any relationship whatsoever with Cameroon d language d physical appearance d character are never similar

IamAtribalist:


are you daft? Do you really believe some guy fell from the sky? The Binis are Nok(ians) who migrated South and took on the language (old Urhobo) of the majority tribe in Niger Delta at the time. The Noks (and by extension the Binis) are the original Nigerians. Everyone else entered from somewhere. The so called Hausoids came in from Niger (kneejare), akpu-eaters from Cameroun and later from Bini; the amala-eaters from somewhere West Africa probably Benin Rep (and also from Niger (some say Sudan)). When the amala-eaters came into Nigeria the saw that the Bini's were already established hence the 'story' that connects them to Bini.

You do know that tons of Yorubas out there believe in that stuff right?

Of course I don't believe in that fairy tale. I deal with hard facts, not some fairy tale borne out by uneducated skeptics.

bigfrancis21:


Your being impressed does not even matter to the crux of the matter at hand neither does it make a tad difference. The fact is no group of people without a civilization, structure and order can come together to build structures that stand the wear and tear of time. Given your glorification of the Oyo 'civilization', one would expect massive pyramids or structures as evidence of this 'great' civilization, but unfortunately none whatsoever were built.

glorified mounds (aka short pyramids) are a dime a dozen - they are scattered all across the world. They mean nothing. Don't take it personal. I was not that impressed with the one found in Scotland a few years back either. Yes. No evidence of the amala-eaters building tall mounds but again maybe they didn't see the point. Neither did the Bini empire (which you also glorified) have any record of one either - do you still see them as a significant civilization since they didn't have the akpu-peoples 'pyramids?' My point is a couple of mounds here and there does NOT a civilization make. No empire without a civilization, period. The amala people and Bini people had empires hence definite proof of civilization. The akpu-people on the other hand do NOT have convincing proof of precolonial civilization. This is nothing personal just historical facts.

Radoillo:
I'm going to try and avoid a long-drawn out argument over this, because I do not think it is at all necessary. This is something that better qualified professors and PhDs of linguistics have thoroughly dissected since before the 1960s. If you have any serious interest in knowing what the academic opinion on language evolution in West Africa is, you could search for the literature, and then make informed speculations - 'cause the speculations you're making right now really aren't informed, to be honest. Someone on the opposite side could as well say that Igbo is a 'spin-off' from archaic Yoruba, or a 'spin-off' from archaic Idoma and his argument would be just as 'convincing' as your own.

Concerning parent languages/protolanguages: You have to understand that Latin is a very, very rare case of a proto-language 'surviving' (Inverted commas because Latin isn't really a living language). Usually proto-languages don't tend to survive as identifiable languages alongside the languages they gave rise to. It's like a cell that has undergone cell division - which of the resulting cells is the mother cell?

Latin only survived because it was the medium of a lively rich literature and became an elitist language in western Europe. Otherwise, it too will be dead, and we would be here asking: "Where is the protolanguage? If you can't show me, then it's all speculation." Yea, I can't show you concrete written or spoken evidence of the following proto-languages: Proto-IndoEuropean, proto-Slavic, proto-Semitic, proto-Bantu, etc. But scholars KNOW they existed because languages carry clues in their root-words that enable linguistic experts to partially or fully reconstruct their ancestors. Linguists have successfully reconstructed the proto-Indo-European language ( the ancestor of all the major languages spoken in Europe, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and Northern India). They have reconstructed it to the point where they can actually compile dictionaries of proto-Indo-European and actually SPEAK IT - even though the language died out thousands of years ago, leaving no material evidence, except for clues in its offspring languages.

My point is that: even though there are no written/spoken evidence left of the proto-language that gave rise to Igbo, Yoruba, etc, linguists KNOW that such a language existed, because of the information they can glean from the root-words and the structure of the off-spring languages. They also have an idea of where that language was most likely spoken, based on the the geographical spread of the current speakers of Yoruba, Igbo, Idoma etc. The proto-language was most likely spoken in the general area where Igboland, Yorubaland (including Igalaland), Idomaland, Nupeland, Ebiraland, Edoland (including Esan, Afemai etc) almost touch, or almost border on one another's territory. And that is the Middle Belt (Niger-Benue Confluence area). From that general area, the branches that developed into Yoruba, Edo and Igbo (collectively called YEAI) struck out to the southwest, the southcentral and the southeast respectively. The branches that developed into Nupe and Idoma (collectively called NOI) struck out to the west and the east respectively.

I think the picture the linguists painted is very credible. However if you want to hold on to the unsubstantiated view of Igbo giving birth to Yoruba, then whaddaheck, it's a free word, heh?

There is no such thing as rarity of the survival of Latin as a proto parent language for the romance languages. Europeans often kept written records for themselves and that way evidence of proto languages are documented as facts and not hear-says. That way, writers KNOW that proto-languages did exist because the evidence is there. In the case of Africans, it is different. Written records were never kept and the little records were kept and transmitted orally, subject to wear and tear of the human memory and mind and often garnished to favour the speaking party.

It would be wrong to assume that the so-called PhD holders of the 1960s have made all the breakthroughs there are to be in research such that no more can be made. It would be folly to assume such. Heck, even some past researchers have often been proved wrong by modern researchers or entirely new discoveries made that were never known before. Research never stops. It continues and continues and new discoveries of the past are still being found everyday. It is through research that humans are better able to gain more ideas about their past. Till today, more and more evidence is still being discovered about ancient Egypt. The mystery of ancient Egypt has today never been fully uncovered. After all, Philip Emeagwali disproved the prior research of an American researcher to be wrong after conducting research by himself and publishing a new theory, which would not have been possible had he fallen into thinking that all discoveries to be made had already been made. That is not how things work in the research field.

Any one who thinks all languages descended from Idoma should be willing to provide convincing evidence for his theory. It is a world of research, anything is possible.

To be honest, this so-called idea of a proto language for IAEY is mere hypocritical. The so-called author of that book may have simply been following in line of what seemed to be an occurring trend for European languages that he merely assumed would be the same for Igbo and Yoruba without any evidence to prove it. You need to understand, Radoillo, that Bolaji's work merely pointed out what seems to be huge similarities between Igbo and Yoruba and speculated that there may have been a proto language, which many people will easily assume. However, he never established as fact that there ever was a proto language neither has any author in linguistics been able to do so.

Till today no evidence of such proto language for IAEY exists. It is mere theory flouted by some africans who have assumed a European trend from African languages.