Nah guy. I posted more than 30 scriptural references. At the end of the day you are still saying that i said.

Jesus refuted the devil on the point of whom worship should go to. He never argued as to the devil giving rulership to whom he wants. He could have refuted that too. Besides the Devil knew Jesus knew who controlled wordly earthly kingdoms. About 5 of the scriptures that i posted came directly from Jesus mouth where he acknowledged the devil as the ruler of the world. If all the kingdoms of the world were not under the domain of the Devil, Jesus would not have said so. He was not offering Jesus something that was not his. Human rulership was under and still is Under Satans control. Jesus acknowledged this several times and so did the early apostles including John

Besides if God had given rulership to men in these wordly kingdoms, why then would Jesus differentiate between the source of his own kingdom, which is from God, and that of wordly kingdoms? Why does the commision to preach directed to only one kingdom, a divine one as opposed to any wordly kingdom then nor in the future. If the bible says that the whole world is under the control of the devil who do you think is in control of wordly govts?

Jesus while on earth discouraged the use of physical battle to save even him. The conflict of wordly nations had no bearing on true christianity. The apostles also admonished Christians against human wars. If Jesus followers were not to resort to fights to save the son of God, i very much doubt any human Govt is worth dying for. The fight Christians have is against the spirit rulers of this world who would interfare in their fufilling their assaigned commision

FUNNY ENOUGH YOU DODGED ALL THE SCRIPTURES THAT

1 CLEARLY IDENTIFIES THE DEVIL AS THE ONE CONTROLLING THE WORLD'S AFFAIRS

2 TELLS CHRISTIANS TO BE SEPARATE FROM WORLD AFFAIRS

3 SHOWS THAT GOD WOULD DESTROY ALL HUMAN RULERSHIP AND ANYTHING THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH IT AND THEN THE RIGHTFUL RULERSHIP OF THE WORLD WOULD BE HANDED BACK TO CHRIST

YOU CLEARLY DODGED THE DISGRACEFUL AND ROTTEN WORKS OF THE CHURCH, THEIR WORKS HAVING CLEARLY EXPOSED HER.

God still remains the rightful owner of the world though the affairs of the world are controlled by the devil. God still has supreme power to shape events to fufill his plans and purposes. For example he used a chosen nation to bring his seed that would redeem mankind. Israel was a theocracy that was used by God to fufill his purposes.

Now guy this is a useless debate if
1 The example Jesus and his disciples displayed towards wordly politics don't mean a thing to you.

2 All the biblical scriptures that clearly show that the devil is controlling human affairs and is the ruler of this world are to be ignored

3 Christian separateness from world affairs and love among the brotherhood as identifying marks of true christianity is supperceeded in your mind by national alligiances.

4 Most importantly, the destruction of ALL human rulership and establishment of the only KIngdom that God approves of, under his son.

If these do not help you, im afraid i can't

Besides on a lighter note.

Its funny what Christianity has been painted to look like.

The main theme of the bible which points to the vindication of God's soveringty, the establishment of God's kingdom which is the only hope of mankind that will solve man's problems and the destruction of human rulership in that process has been ignored by Christiandom at large.

Now people are left to debating things like.

was the wine Jesus and his apostles have = Ribena

is working in a bar sin?

Should women wear Trouser?

You must pay tithe!


so sad

@sage,

sage:

Nah guy. I posted more than 30 scriptural references. At the end of the day you are still saying that i said.

Jesus refuted the devil on the point of whom worship should go to. He never argued as to the devil giving rulership to whom he wants. He could have refuted that too. Besides the Devil knew Jesus knew who controlled wordly earthly kingdoms. About 5 of the scriptures that i posted came directly from Jesus mouth where he acknowledged the devil as the ruler of the world. If all the kingdoms of the world were not under the domain of the Devil, Jesus would not have said so. He was not offering Jesus something that was not his. Human rulership was under and still is Under Satans control. Jesus acknowledged this several times and so did the early apostles including John

Besides if God had given rulership to men in these wordly kingdoms, why then would Jesus differentiate between the source of his own kingdom, which is from God, and that of wordly kingdoms? Why does the commision to preach directed to only one kingdom, a divine one as opposed to any wordly kingdom then nor in the future. If the bible says that the whole world is under the control of the devil who do you think is in control of wordly govts?

FUNNY ENOUGH YOU DODGED ALL THE SCRIPTURES THAT

I tried dealing with all the verses you had referenced, and they certainly were simply are out of context to the main question I asked. If you missed them, scroll up back and read them to see I did NOT dodge them.

sage:

1 CLEARLY IDENTIFIES THE DEVIL AS THE ONE CONTROLLING THE WORLD'S AFFAIRS

2 TELLS CHRISTIANS TO BE SEPARATE FROM WORLD AFFAIRS

3 SHOWS THAT GOD WOULD DESTROY ALL HUMAN RULERSHIP AND ANYTHING THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH IT AND THEN THE RIGHTFUL RULERSHIP OF THE WORLD WOULD BE HANDED BACK TO CHRIST

YOU CLEARLY DODGED THE DISGRACEFUL AND ROTTEN WORKS OF THE CHURCH, THEIR WORKS HAVING CLEARLY EXPOSED HER.

You can shout all you want, but I dodged NONE of the Scripture texts you offered; unless you simply want readers convinced that you refused to read my rejoinder before making these otiose allegations.

sage:

God still remains the rightful owner of the world though the affairs of the world are controlled by the devil. God still has supreme power to shape events to fufill his plans and purposes. For example he used a chosen nation to bring his seed that would redeem mankind. Israel was a theocracy that was used by God to fufill his purposes.

Now guy this is a useless debate if
1 The example Jesus and his disciples displayed towards wordly politics don't mean a thing to you.

2 All the biblical scriptures that clearly show that the devil is controlling human affairs and is the ruler of this world are to be ignored

3 Christian separateness from world affairs and love among the brotherhood as identifying marks of true christianity is supperceeded in your mind by national alligiances.

4 Most importantly, the destruction of ALL human rulership and establishment of the only KIngdom that God approves of, under his son.

If these do not help you, im afraid i can't

My question still is unaswered: WHO gives rulership to anyone - is it the devil (as you stated); or is it God (as in the BIBLE)??

If you can NOT address that question with a direct reference, please say so.

@sage,

sage:

Besides on a lighter note.

Its funny what Christianity has been painted to look like.

The main theme of the bible which points to the vindication of God's soveringty, the establishment of God's kingdom which is the only hope of mankind that will solve man's problems and the destruction of human rulership in that process has been ignored by Christiandom at large.

Now people are left to debating things like.

was the wine Jesus and his apostles have = Ribena

is working in a bar sin?

Should women wear Trouser?

You must pay tithe!


so sad

On a lighter note, how is it that you dodged all the references I offered you to the point that GOD is the only One who GIVES rulership to ANYONE? if you dodged those offered in mine, on what grounds would you turn round and allege your own flaws on anyone else?

Please address the question; and if you can't, say so and preserve what's left of your scholarship before someone mistakes you for someone else. Enjoy.

well guy i already did.

Jesus kingdom is not from the same source as wordly kingdoms. The kingdom of Jesus is from heaven obviously so that explains it all. And i also did with my last posts.

sage:

well guy i already did.

Jesus kingdom is not from the same source as wordly kingdoms. The kingdom of Jesus is from heaven obviously so that explains it all. And i also did with my last posts.

Would it be too much to ask that you quote just ONE verse for your claim?

and i did here too

sage:

Nah guy. I posted more than 30 scriptural references. At the end of the day you are still saying that i said.

Jesus refuted the devil on the point of whom worship should go to. He never argued as to the devil giving rulership to whom he wants. He could have refuted that too. Besides the Devil knew Jesus knew who controlled wordly earthly kingdoms. About 5 of the scriptures that i posted came directly from Jesus mouth where he acknowledged the devil as the ruler of the world. If all the kingdoms of the world were not under the domain of the Devil, Jesus would not have said so. He was not offering Jesus something that was not his. Human rulership was under and still is Under Satans control. Jesus acknowledged this several times and so did the early apostles including John

Besides if God had given rulership to men in these wordly kingdoms, why then would Jesus differentiate between the source of his own kingdom, which is from God, and that of wordly kingdoms? Why does the commision to preach directed to only one kingdom, a divine one as opposed to any wordly kingdom then nor in the future. If the bible says that the whole world is under the control of the devil who do you think is in control of wordly govts?

John 18:36

@sage,

We're all grown-ups, so let's just stop playing semantic games.

sage:

and i did here too

John 18:36

John 18:36 - "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence"

HOW does that show that the DEVIL gives rulership to ANYONE

Jer 12: 1,2 says that God planted the wicked and wickedness and that they have grown and flourished

Jeremiah obviously did not mean that God planted wickedness. But he simply acknowledged the fact that the wicked and wickedness present was forseen and yet it was allowed by God even though God could stop it, yet he permits it.

God foresaw human rulerships, foresaw the Devil's control of it along with wickedness suffering and all other things but he permits all these to continue even though he can end all of it at an instant.

well its no use then

Jesus was offered human rulership by the Devil and Jesus knew the devil controls it and he acknowledged it several times. If the Devil controls it, and all human rulership is under his power, how will he not give it to whom he wants, exactly the same way like he offered it to Jesus

Besides if that was a lie, then Jesus, John, Peter, Paul and all the apostles are liars too for acknowledging that human rulership is under the control of Satan

@sage,

sage:

Jer 12: 1,2 says that God planted the wicked and wickedness and that they have grown and flourished

Jeremiah obviously did not mean that God planted wickedness. But he simply acknowledged the fact that the wicked and wickedness present was forseen and yet it was allowed by God even though God could stop it, yet he permits it.

God foresaw human rulerships, foresaw the Devil's control of it along with wickedness suffering and all other things but he permits all these to continue even though he can end all of it at an instant.

Thanks. Again, where does it say that the DEVIL gives rulership to ANYONE?

Again, look at your statement:

(a) "Jer 12: 1,2 says that God planted the wicked and wickedness"

(b) "Jeremiah obviously did not mean that God planted wickedness."

Just so we don't promote unnecessary inference of what Scripture does NOT say, here's what Jer. 12:1-2 says:

¹Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously? ²Thou hast planted them, yea, they have taken root: they grow, yea, they bring forth fruit: thou art near in their mouth, and far from their reins.

It does NOT say in those verses that God planted wickedness.

@sage,

sage:

well its no use then

Jesus was offered human rulership by the Devil and Jesus knew the devil controls it and he acknowledged it several times. If the Devil controls it, and all human rulership is under his power, how will he not give it to whom he wants, exactly the same way like he offered it to Jesus

Jesus NOWHERE acknowledged that the DEVIL gives or gave rulership to anyone. That is why I offered that if you believe the devil actually has that right to do so, then please cite ONE verse where he has actually done so to ANYONE!

sage:

Besides if that was a lie, then Jesus, John, Peter, Paul and all the apostles are liars too for acknowledging that human rulership is under the control of Satan

NONE of them stated ANYWHERE that the devil GIVES RULERSHIP to ANYONE! So where's the lie that you're strenuously trying to allege against them?

Guy lets stop this merry go round.

The bible clearly shows that the destruction of human rulership is inevitable. By divine principle everything associated with it is up for destruction too.
The bible also shows that the world, along with its desires (Political, Military that in no way honours God's incoming king or takes into account God's purposes) will pass away.

Anybody has a choice to make. You can chose to associate yourself with what God has made it clear he intends to destroy.

And in your quotation of Jeremiah did you not see the statement

"Thou has planted them"

Yeah can you explain why Jeremiah would say God has planted the wicked?

i am waiting for an answer. Why would God plant the wicked and wickedness

@Sage,

Yeah can you explain why Jeremiah would say God has planted the wicked

You are merely clutching onto straw to keep afloat on a quicking sand.

That God plants the wicked does not mean He plants wickedness. The same sense of that statement is what the N.T. teaches about God letting His rain fall on the rightreous and the unrighteous as well. Will you now accuse God of complicity in unrigheousness because He blesses them with rain and the likes?

@sage,

sage:

Guy lets stop this merry go round.

Exactly, Just offer the text that says the DEVIL gives rulership to ANYONE, then you won't need the long thesis that still dribble around that question.

sage:

The bible clearly shows that the destruction of human rulership is inevitable. By divine principle everything associated with it is up for destruction too.
The bible also shows that the world, along with its desires (Political, Military that in no way honours God's incoming king or takes into account God's purposes) will pass away.

For the umpteenth time sage, WHERE in the Bible has the Devil GIVEN RULERSHIP to ANYONE

sage:

Anybody has a choice to make. You can chose to associate yourself with what God has made it clear he intends to destroy.

If you care to identify yourself with God, do what HE says - respect and pray for those in authority, pay your taxes, obey rulers set up by GOD; for there is no human rulership that be except it were GIVEN by GOD!! (Romans 13:1).

sage:

And in your quotation of Jeremiah did you not see the statement

"Thou has planted them"

What did God plant - the people themselves who became wicked; or does it say that God planted WICKEDNESS?? If you feel He planted wickedness, why did you come back denying your own statement with this line: "Jeremiah obviously did not mean that God planted wickedness"??

sage:

Yeah can you explain why Jeremiah would say God has planted the wicked?

i am waiting for an answer. Why would God plant the wicked and wickedness

I nowhere stated that God plants/planted WICKEDNESS - that was your own statement:

sage:

Jer 12: 1,2 says that God planted the wicked and wickedness and that they have grown and flourished

So, if you need an explanation, it should be put forward by YOU and none else. Cheers.

Nah Guys.

God planted the wicked and the wicked bring forth wickedness. That passage did not say God planted people who later became wicked. It says God planted the wicked (and by extension wicked people commit wicked acts)

@sage,

sage:

Nah Guys.

God planted the wicked and the wicked bring forth wickedness. That passage did not say God planted people who later became wicked. It says God planted the wicked (and by extension wicked people commit wicked acts)

Okay, that's your your opinion; and I can afford to respect it.

However, it does not state what you did state earlier - that God planted WICKEDNESS, abi??

God could take out wicked people along with there wickedness in an instant. But he permits them to go on with there acts. There would be no wickedness on earth if God did not permit it. Wickedness exists due to God's permission of it until his own due time

God can take out all human rulership now (which he eventually will) but he permits them to continue till his time to destroy them comes along. Human rulership will not be here if not by God's permission, the same way wickedness is here due to his permission.

Jer 13 1,2 clearly states God planted the wicked. You posted it. Read it again

were you not the one that posted this

1Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously? 2THOU HAST PLANTED THEM, yea, they have taken root: they grow, yea, they bring forth fruit: thou art near in their mouth, and far from their reins.

God grants wickedness, injustice,evil and other things permission to exist.

The devil would not be in control of human affairs if God did not permit it. The devil would not be misleading the entire world if God did not permit it.

Human govts can be destroyd in an instant by God (which he will eventually do) but meanwhile they exist due to his permission.

God simply gives human govts permission to exist.

But in the Bible he clearly states what his plans are for it. DESTRUCTION. The same fate that would befall wickedness, injustice and all

Also God can stop the wordly Govts from doing anything he does not want

But he allows and gives them permission to do all they do. They cant do that without his permission. Guys please this is crystal clear.

The fact that he permits Human Goverments to operate and exist does not change the plan he has for them, ie their total destruction along with all the other things God gives permission to other things to exist but he will also destroy those things like i listed above.

When Pilate told Jesus that he had power over his life, Jesus told Pilate that he had no power unless it was granted from above. Jesus clearly showed that Pilate could execute him simply because the permission had been granted by God. If God did not want to permit it, he would not. The same thing is applicable to Nebuchadnezzar. All his accomplishments would not have been there if God did not grant him the permission to.

Pilate and Nebuchadnezzar had Permission granted to them and were allowed to do what they did by God. In that sense, all authority that they had was from God. Pilate could not execute Jesus if that authority had not been granted by God. Nebuchadnezzar accomplishments which he became excessively proud were on God's permission. If God had not permitted it, he would not have had those.

Satan is the ruler of the world and controls its affairs because God permits and allows him to do that. The authority and control that Satan has is by God's allowance and Permission. The same is applicable to human goverments. Their authority and Jurisdiction exists only due to God's permission. God has granted Satan and Human Govts the permission to rule and act the way that they please

@sage,

I've tried to be reasonable with you all this while; but then you keep knotting yourself up. Here, if this would help you:

sage:

God could take out wicked people along with there wickedness in an instant. But he permits them to go on with there acts. There would be no wickedness on earth if God did not permit it. Wickedness exists due to God's permission of it until his own due time

Yep, I did not argue against that, did I?? Just so that you can understand that I concur with that, the same thing was stated by the Lord in Matt. 13:25-30 where He hints that both the wheat and the tares will grow together until the harvest.

However, my question is not on whether or not God PERMITS anything. Rather, I've consistently argued and debated your inference that the DEVIL GIVES RULERSHIP to whomsoever he wills. Nowhere in Scripture is the devil given that right to GIVE rulership to ANYONE - and if you believe otherwise, please cite just ONE verse where he has EVER done so!

sage:

God can take out all human rulership now (which he eventually will) but he permits them to continue till his time to destroy them comes along. Human rulership will not be here if not by God's permission, the same way wickedness is here due to his permission.

Please sage, the issue has not been about what God PERMITS or not. Rather, the whole argument is what He GIVES (establishes / sets up).

You may permit what you did NOT directly give; but you cannot claim to give something that is not in your jurisdiction. That said, the devil can permit, promote, influence whatever he wants to; but he is NOWHERE the GIVER of rulership!! The devil does not have that jurisdiction, not in even one instance.

sage:

Jer 13 1,2 clearly states God planted the wicked. You posted it. Read it again

Indeed, I posted it and read it before and after doing so. Where does it say that God planted WICKDNESS??

sage:

were you not the one that posted this

1Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously? 2THOU HAST PLANTED THEM, yea, they have taken root: they grow, yea, they bring forth fruit: thou art near in their mouth, and far from their reins.

What did God plant - the people or WICKEDNESS??

sage:

God grants wickedness, injustice,evil and other things permission to exist.

The devil would not be in control of human affairs if God did not permit it. The devil would not be misleading the entire world if God did not permit it.

Human govts can be destroyd in an instant by God (which he will eventually do) but meanwhile they exist due to his permission.

God simply gives human govts permission to exist.

But in the Bible he clearly states what his plans are for it. DESTRUCTION. The same fate that would befall wickedness, injustice and all

sage:

Also God can stop the wordly Govts from doing anything he does not want

But he allows and gives them permission to do all they do. They can't do that without his permission. Guys please this is crystal clear.

The fact that he permits Human Goverments to operate and exist does not change the plan he has for them, ie their total destruction along with all the other things God gives permission to other things to exist but he will also destroy those things like i listed above.

God GIVES rulership. Period. That is what Scripture clearly teaches. It is not a matter of permission; rather, the Bible clearly says severally that God Himself gives or sets up these governments.

Not only so, the Bible also says that CHRISTIANS are to obey, respect, and pray for leaders in the same governments which God has GIVEN!! Roman 13: 1-4 even goes so far as to state that anyone who resists these governments is resisting the ordinance of GOD!!

The devil is NOT the one who GIVES or sets up ANY human government. If you cannot adduce a text for your claim otherwise, say so and rest it.

sage:

When Pilate told Jesus that he had power over his life, Jesus told Pilate that he had no power unless it was granted from above. Jesus clearly showed that Pilate could execute him simply because the permission had been granted by God. If God did not want to permit it, he would not. The same thing is applicable to Nebuchadnezzar. All his accomplishments would not have been there if God did not grant him the permission to.

. . .or as you now editted it:

sage:

Pilate and Nebuchadnezzar had Permission granted to them and were allowed to do what they did by God. In that sense, all authority that they had was from God. Pilate could not execute Jesus if that authority had not been granted by God. Nebuchadnezzar accomplishments which he became excessively proud were on God's permission. If God had not permitted it, he would not have had those.

Oga, please go read it as exactly stated. In both instances of Pilate and Nebuchadnezzar, it is NOT a matter of PERMISSION, but of direct GIVING!!

John 19:11
"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." (it did not say that "it were PERMITTED thee from above"

Dan. 5:18
"O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour." (again, not "the most high God PERMITTED Nebechadnezzar"

This weak idea of making the Scriptures say something else is really cripping your argument. In your bid to mistake God for the the passive role of the one who "PERMITS", you keep on denying that He is the ONLY ONE who actually GIVES rulership to people!!

The devil NOWHERE gives rulership - if he does, please sage, do us the gentlemanly honour of quoting the verse!!

There is no debating of this nor of the fact that God will destroy human rulership and those involved in it.

No human rulership would have any authority if not by God's permission.

Satan would not have the control he has if not by God's permission.

Wickedness and Injustice would not exist if it did not have God's permission
Neither will sickness and death

God plans to do away with all these things in his own due time.


well guys what can i say

I have shown you all i can from the bible. What else can i say?

@Stimulus

If you followed my posts from before you will see where i said exactly what you are saying.

Christians are to obey the law, pay taxes and follow ceasar as long his commands did not try to go against God's command.

So any true Christian would not be disruptive but would pay his taxes and obey the law in general.

Pilates authority to kill Jesus was granted him from above simply b/cos God allowed him to do it. If he did not have God's permission.

So was Nebucadnezzers authority.

But control of world affairs is ultimately in the hand of Satan

Satan's authority has been granted by God otherwise if God objected to Satan having that control, Satan would not have it.

U are the one deviating.

This topic is strictly Christians and Partcipation in politics.

Should Christians be involved in something God plans to destroy? Thats the question this thread is trying to tackle.


The devil controls human affairs because God has granted him that Authority. If God does not want to allow him to do that, he would not be able to, but since he does, the authority has been given him by God and by extension, other wordly Govts under Satan's control. The right to rulership belongs to God undoubtedly but he grants satan that Authority to dictate human affairs. He could stop that in an instant but he doesnt. He leaves Satan to control world affairs till his time to take action is due. Thats the point im trying to get across

@sage,

sage:

There is no debating of this nor of the fact that God will destroy human rulership and those involved in it.

No human rulership would have any authority if not by God's permission.

Satan would not have the control he has if not by God's permission.

Wickedness and Injustice would not exist if it did not have God's permission
Neither will sickness and death

God plans to do away with all these things in his own due time.


well guys what can i say

I have shown you all i can from the bible. What else can i say?

You have exhausted yourself, and yet have failed to produce the verse that says that the devil GIVES rulership to ANYONE!! It is not in his jurisdiction to do so; and you would simply have to withdraw that inference.

sage:

@Stimulus

If you followed my posts from before you will see where i said exactly what you are saying.

Christians are to obey the law, pay taxes and follow ceasar as long his commands did not try to go against God's command.

So any true Christian would not be disruptive but would pay his taxes and obey the law in general.

I don't think my posts have been saying the same as yours. Pardon me, but if I missed it, could you refer me the page where we said the same things?? I say this because it is not and has never been my position that "Christians have a battle against world leaders" (your direct quote).

sage:

Pilates authority to kill Jesus was granted him from above simply b/because God allowed him to do it. If he did not have God's permission.

Pilate's government was not passively "permitted" - it was GIVEN from above (John 19:11).

sage:

So was Nebucadnezzers authority.

This also was GIVEN by God Himself (Dan. 5:18)!

sage:

But control of world affairs is ultimately in the hand of Satan

Satan's authority has been granted by God otherwise if God objected to Satan having that control, Satan would not have it.

Satan has NO jurisdiction to GIVE RULERSHIP to ANYONE!! Why is it so difficult for you to offer just ONE verse where Satan has EVER "GIVEN RULERSHIP"  to anyone??

sage:

U are the one deviating.

This topic is strictly Christians and Partcipation in politics.

Should Christians be involved in something God plans to destroy? Thats the question this thread is trying to tackle.


The devil controls human affairs because God has granted him that Authority. If God does not want to allow him to do that, he would not be able to, but since he does, the authority has been given him by God and by extension, other wordly Govts under Satan's control. The right to rulership belongs to God undoubtedly but he grants satan that Authority to dictate human affairs. He could stop that in an instant but he doesnt. He leaves Satan to control world affairs till his time to take action is due. Thats the point im trying to get across

I have been consistent althrough, nevermind your dribbles that haven't yielded fruit. The simple question I asked was again and again repeated: WHO gives rulership to anyone - is it the devil (as you stated); or is it God (as in the BIBLE)??

We aint debating Grammer here

For example Psalms 3:9,10 says God intends to destroy the wicked ones

Jer says he plants the wicked ones and lets them flourish.

Its obvious that the bible is saying the wicked accomplish what they do due to God allowing them to do that.

Let us say maybe if Grammer is the problem we are having let us rephrase it this was

The authority that Satan has to control world affairs is granted him by God, so is that of human rulers, who are under the control of Satan. ie God granted the rulership of the world to the Devil and in the same vein the authority of human rulership is also granted by God but is under the control of the Devil. That does not change the fact that God would destroy both the devil and Human rulership

Now with that aside. The question is

Should true Christians participate in something that God fully intends to destroy. Should christians imitate the Early christians and stay away form something that is under the influence and control of the devil and preach about the only Kingdom that is Mankind's hope or should they participate in something that God will without fail destory along with everything associated with it?

Thats the question this thread is really asking

Hope no more Grammer problems. . My Primary school principal wont be pleased

The authority excercised by the wicked is also Granted by God in the same sense as the authority Satan and Human rulers excercise. No creature has any authority unless it is granted by God, from the Devil to human rulers to wicked ones, with the worlds affairs beign directed by Satan.

The question remains.

Should true Christians participate in Wordly Politics?

@sage,

sage:

We aint debating Grammer here

For example Psalms 3:9,10 says God intends to destroy the wicked ones

Jer says he plants the wicked ones and lets them flourish.

Its obvious that the bible is saying the wicked accomplish what they do due to God allowing them to do that.

Let us say maybe if Grammer is the problem we are having let us rephrase it this was

You're on your own if you suppose this is about grammar.

The Bible is clear - God and He ALONE has the prerogative to GIVE rulership to anyone. The Bible again and again shows that He directly GIVES rulership, instead of your passive "PERMITTING" them: "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will" (Dan. 4:32).

There is just no way any honest reader will twist that around and make it say otherwise. What you claim for the devil about GIVING rulership to whomever he wills is non-existent in the Bible, yes or no??

sage:

The authority that Satan has to control world affairs is granted him by God, so is that of human rulers, who are under the control of Satan. ie God granted the rulership of the world to the Devil and in the same vein the authority of human rulership is also granted by God but is under the control of the Devil. That does not change the fact that God would destroy both the devil and Human rulership

Now with that aside. The question is

Should true Christians participate in something that God fully intends to destroy. Should christians imitate the Early christians and stay away form something that is under the influence and control of the devil and preach about the only Kingdom that is Mankind's hope or should they participate in something that God will without fail destory along with everything associated with it?

Thats the question this thread is really asking

sage:

Hope no more Grammer problems. . My Primary school principal wont be pleased

The authority excercised by the wicked is also Granted by God in the same sense as the authority Satan and Human rulers excercise. No creature has any authority unless it is granted by God, from the Devil to human rulers to wicked ones, with the worlds affairs beign directed by Satan.

The question remains.

Should true Christians participate in Wordly Politics?

God gave these governments; and if you want to stay out of them, be my guest. However, remember that you would only be doing so by direct RESISTANCE of God's ordinance, with dire consequeces well spelt out (Rom. 13:2).

Continue decieving yourself.

Satan was granted authority to rule the earth and control all human political realms

,Political Neutrality and Separation from the world a must for true christians, is now against God's orders. Hear yourself.

Its funny how you dodge the fact that

1 The Devil is the ruler of the world

2 All wordly Goverments are under his control (he has enough control over them to incite them into opposition of God and hence their destruction Rev 16: 14 to 16)

3 All faithful and true early christians (including Jesus) Rejected and kept away from human politics

4 God clearly intends to destroy Human Rulership.

5 Christiandoms works have exposed her for what she is

Your logic is so flawed it stinks

Rulership was Granted to Humans by God you say
by the same vein then
Rulership and Control of the earth has also been granted by God to the Devil and the devil controls all human Rulership and true Christians should advoid it.

r

I can't stop laughing.

The Judgement and destruction of all human rulership along with the spirit ruler of the world and all those who participate in human rulership has already been stated by the bible.

Its is your prerogative. Nobody can make that decision for you. Participate in it if you want. The church can mire itself in all the politics that it wants

the path of true christianity is clear, the same path chosen by early christians.

Total Neutrality with regards to all human political systems orchastrated by the real ruler of the world, Satan.

Seperation from the world (with the realisation that the worlds political and military desires will pass away, dealt with by God)

Realising that the only hope of man is God's Kingdom

The bible has stated that. Participate in what God has promised to destroy without fail. Its your choice, its the choice of hte Church, its the choice of all humans. Do what you wish

Period

Well to other people

you all would do well to asks yourselves

Who really rules the world? What controls the political realms of this worlds rulership.


im finished with this thread for now

Anybody that thinks that God is in charge of this world's political affairs should carry on deluding themselves.

The bible has clearly shown the devil is in charge.

At least nobody so far has denied that God would destroy human rulership along with everything associated with it. The warning is there for all Choose for yourselves