Alexyswiss:


thanks bro....I get you totally

but since he has power to...why don't he just manipulate it so that we don't choose wrongly
since he also dislike it??

Because if He did that, He'd be overriding our freewill which would no longer be free so to speak, and this is just not God's modus operandi.

Freewill illustrated

ayoku777:


Yes, God knows if a man is going to make a wrong decision with the freewill He has given you.

But He will not manipulate your freewill to make you not make that wrong decision. That would not be freewill anymore or justice.

The best God will do is warn you in your conscience or by His Word and Spirit about it.

For example, God knew Cain was thinking about killing Abel. He warned Cain but didn't force or manipulate him to not do it.

Gen 4v6 -And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

v7 -If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him

God will show us His will and warn us about our choices, but He will not manipulate our freewill.

God knew man will fall... Could man not have fallen?

Since God knew man would fall and if man finally hadn't fallen, what would we have said if what God knew? I mean would we have said God "knew" wrongly?
So I ask again since God already knew man would fall, did man have any other "choice" but to fall? Remember God can't be wrong of what he knows.

Again... What does warning us of what hr already knows will happen mean? If he warns us of what we know, does it mean he want us to so what he does not know? Does it make any sense to warn us of what he already knew must come to pass?

frank317:


God knew man will fall... Could man not have fallen?

Since God knew man would fall and if man finally hadn't fallen, what would we have said if what God knew? I mean would we have said God "knew" wrongly?
So I ask again since God already knew man would fall, did man have any other "choice" but to fall? Remember God can't be wrong of what he knows.

Again... What does warning us of what hr already knows will happen mean? If he warns us of what we know, does it mean he want us to so what he does not know? Does it make any sense to warn us of what he already knew must come to pass?

You are confusing FOREKNOWLEDGE and ORDAINING.
God's knowing before hand that Adam would fall does not mean he orchestrated the Fall. That is FOREKNOWLEDGE.
ORDAINING on the other hand is ordering and orchestrating events before hand.

chinnyonwu:


Yep! He knew.
but went ahead with his plan anyways.
Thats why Flying Spaghetti Monster overthrew him and became the God of the world.

He was touched by the Noodly Appendage. Ramen, bro.

vooks:

You are confusing FOREKNOWLEDGE and ORDAINING.
God's knowing before hand that Adam would fall does not mean he orchestrated the Fall. That is FOREKNOWLEDGE.
ORDAINING on the other hand is ordering and orchestrating events before hand.

Smh .. Can God be wrong in his Foreknowledge ?

vooks:

You are confusing FOREKNOWLEDGE and ORDAINING.
God's knowing before hand that Adam would fall does not mean he orchestrated the Fall. That is FOREKNOWLEDGE.
ORDAINING on the other hand is ordering and orchestrating events before hand.

But wasn't it orchestrated? God put Adam and Eve (people who couldn't tell good from evil) in Eden with the forbidden fruit and a snake that would tempt them. What did he think was going to happen?

Alexyswiss:


thanks bro....I get you totally

but since he has power to...why don't he just manipulate it so that we don't choose wrongly
since he also dislike it??

You're right, God has the power to manipulate a man's freewill. And there was even an instance in scripture where He did. When God made King Abimelech to not touch Sarah.

Gen 20v6 -And God said unto him (Abimelech) in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

You see that? Abimelech did not refuse to touch Sarah out of his own freewill. No, God made him not to touch her. So yes, God can manipulate freewill.

But I have done some little study, and I stand to be corrected. But not only were the instances in scripture where God manipulated a man's freewill less than one percent, God also did it only when the fulfilment of a messianic prophecy or promise was at stake.

It seems that when it has to do with the kingdom mandate and the fulfilment of messianic prophecies, God always plays His sovereignty card.

But the other 99% of the times, when it has to do with the everyday choices of man, God does not manipulate man's freewill. He leaves us with our freewill and choices we make with it.

He will only warn us about our actions, and the consequences of those actions. But in His grace He will also make provisions for our remission and redemption if we are willing to accept the offer.

If God just goes around pulling His weight on all of us and manipulating our freewill up and down; then judgment day would be a charade. Since God would then be judging us, not for what we did, but what He manipulated us to do.

And secondly, God is raising a family of priests and kings who will reign with Jesus in the age to come.

If God just manipulates our will, then our Christlikeness will not be a true reflection of our love for God and our personal desire to be like Him, but a product of God manipulating our will and moulding us by force into the image of His Son. That will not be true maturity.

So God swooping in and saving the day everytime by making sure that what we do is always the good He manipulates us to do. That would not make us tried and tested priests and kings. It will not make our maturity true.

There is so much more to be said. But let me stop here. The Holy Spirit will open our understanding and guide us into all truth in Jesus name.

Shalom.

CoolUsername:
But wasn't it orchestrated? God put Adam and Eve (people who couldn't tell good from evil) in Eden with the forbidden fruit and a snake that would tempt them. What did he think was going to happen?

God created RATIONAL beings. What they do with their rational Freewill is purely their responsibility. Comprende?

MizJanet:


Smh .. Can God be wrong in his Foreknowledge ?

No. Shake your head 100 times till it sinks

vooks:

You are confusing FOREKNOWLEDGE and ORDAINING.
God's knowing before hand that Adam would fall does not mean he orchestrated the Fall. That is FOREKNOWLEDGE.
ORDAINING on the other hand is ordering and orchestrating events before hand.

In this scenerio, FOREKNOWLEDGE should also be ORDAINING. Why? Their downfall is known before being created. Now if Iam 100% certain a gadget would be destructive, do I still buy it. Afterall, I'll ditch it.

Mozambique:

In this scenerio, FOREKNOWLEDGE should also be ORDAINING. Why? Their downfall is known before being created. Now if Iam 100% certain a gadget would be destructive, do I still buy it. Afterall, I'll ditch it.

You are almost getting it.
If you knew for sure that your wife/fiancée will cheat on you and you go on and marry her, did you make her cheat on you?

God being 110% man would fall, He made a way out through the cross, through Jesus Christ the Son of God. This is why Jesus is said to have been slain BEFORE the foundation of the world. The vehicle manufacturer certainly is not responsible for a fatal accident because they built airbags

God knew how man will end up if he fell or didn't fall, hence He admonished man not to eat of the fruit of destruction.

Man had free will to do whatever he liked and He chose to listen to d devil and go against God's command

vooks:

You are confusing FOREKNOWLEDGE and ORDAINING.
God's knowing before hand that Adam would fall does not mean he orchestrated the Fall. That is FOREKNOWLEDGE.
ORDAINING on the other hand is ordering and orchestrating events before hand.

No... Pls answer my question. What I asked has nothing to do with ordaining... I will repeat my question:


God knew man will fall... Could man not have fallen?

Since God knew man would fall and if man finally hadn't fallen, what would we have said if what God knew? I mean would we have said God "knew" wrongly?
So I ask again, since God already knew man would fall, did man have any other "choice" but to fall? Remember God can't be wrong of what he knows.

Again... What does warning us of what he already knows will happen mean? If he warns us of what he know, does it mean he want us to do what he does not know? Does it make any sense to warn us of what he already knew must come to pass?

Pls just answer my questions above... Don't dodge is by saying I am confusing foreknowledge with ordaining... You can break the questions to parts and answer them directly... Thanks.

Just imagine this pOo

ayoku777
If course yes ! God knew man would sin and fall

Automatically the above statement declare God has the one who throw mankind to woes , since he God cant be wrong in his foreknowledge , or can he be wrong ?

just take a look at the next statement from someone who has already shoot himself at his leg .

ayoku777
It wasnt God that let it happen as much as it was Adam that chose to disobey and fall

Haaa ! Choose indeed , when you said God has already foreknown he will faill , it was planned , or can God be wrong in his foreknowledge ?

Kay17:
Is there a great moral value behind the reason God gives man free will?

Ofcourse there is a moral reason behind freewill. Freewill makes where a man end up entirely his choice and doing. And that is justice.

Kay17:
Doesn't man still manifest God's will by exercising it?

With freewill you can obey or disobey the will of God. But whatever you do will be your choice. So you don't automatically manifest God's will when you exercise freewill.

You can use your freewill to disobey God and go against His will.

John 1v11 -He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Acts 7v51 -Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Kay17:
Can a man alter God's plan by using his freewill?

Yes, with our freewill we can alter God's will for our personal lives. God's will is not always done. Our choices can delay or even derail God's will for our personal lives.

It is not God's will for anyone to go to hell.

2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

The lake of fire was made for the devil and his angels -not for man.

Matthew 25v41 -Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Lake or fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. And its not God's will for any man to end up there. Men end up there of their own freewill -against God's will.

So yes, God's will is not always done in our lives. We have a freewill, and what we do with it is our choice and the attendant consequence is our doing.

Shalom

frank317:

No... Pls answer my question. What I asked has nothing to do with ordaining... I will repeat my question:
God knew man will fall... Could man not have fallen?

Since God knew man would fall and if man finally hadn't fallen, what would we have said if what God knew? I mean would we have said God "knew" wrongly?
So I ask again, since God already knew man would fall, did man have any other "choice" but to fall? Remember God can't be wrong of what he knows.

Again... What does warning us of what he already knows will happen mean? If he warns us of what he know, does it mean he want us to do what he does not know? Does it make any sense to warn us of what he already knew must come to pass?

Pls just answer my questions above... Don't dodge is by saying I am confusing foreknowledge with ordaining... You can break the questions to parts and answer them directly... Thanks.

Frank , you are indeed frank lol

That guy just wanna dodge the question

MizJanet:


Frank , you are indeed frank lol

That guy just wanna dodge the question

Seriously sis, I really dont know the connection between his answer and my question. Perhaps he was confusing me with someone else

Alexyswiss:
please I'm a little bit confused about this thought..

They said God is omnipotent..and even omnipresent

and he sees the future...and know everything that would happen next right?? and can even do and undo

okay...does this means that God knew Eve would be deceived and Adam would fall with her?

why did he let that happen?...does this also means he wanted man to fall so that sin would come into this world and man would go through suffering?

pls answer with biblical reference if any

Yeah, man, God knew. But that could not have deterred Him from doing what He pleased. It's like Christ refusing to come to rescue the sons of Adam because He knew He'd be rejected(even till today), ridiculed and killed by them. As it was in Eden so it is now. The same careless attitude towards God's better plan for us. That God shouldn't have created anything is like a wood-carver refusing to carve his canoe because he's supposed to be a land-dweller and shouldn't plunge into the seas of uncertainties. Or that God should have created animals only. How great would such creation had been? But in man's case, he has all the fit outs to live godly, but he won't just reason, nor that he can't, but he just appreciates the pleasure of unrighteousness. God has also provided all man needs to always make a u-turn from his evil ways; from a conscience, to rationality; from the words of preachers to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Man is one powerful creature God made and committed his life's destinies into his hands. God has never facilitated man's errors. If we're tempted it's to make us stronger, like every conscientious inventor tries and tests his invention. All the same, there are questions that are quite beyond us, otherwise man is no more man, and God is no more God. Relax and follow God... BY FAITH

vooks:
No.

LOL , lol , lol

MizJanet:


LOL , lol , lol

Sissies and babies are good with lols

frank317:


No... Pls answer my question. What I asked has nothing to do with ordaining... I will repeat my question:


God knew man will fall... Could man not have fallen?

I wish I could answer you but you have to try and be coherent at the very least.

Are you wondering if there was a possibility of man not sinning?

vooks:


I wish I could answer you but you have to try and be coherent at the very least.

Are you wondering if there was a possibility of man not sinning?

Pls read my question slowly its very clear... I didn't mention sin... There is nothing confusing about that question.

frank317:


Pls read my question slowly its very clear... I didn't mention sin... There is nothing confusing about that question.

I have asked you to clarify because it is meaningless babble. Can you in one sentence rephrase it and I will gladly give you wisdom from God?

frank317:
God knew man will fall... Could man not have fallen?

Since God knew man would fall and if man finally hadn't fallen, what would we have said if what God knew? I mean would we have said God "knew" wrongly? So I ask again since God already knew man would fall, did man have any other "choice" but to fall? Remember God can't be wrong of what he knows.

God's foreknowledge cannot be wrong. God knows the end from the beginning. God sits on the circumference of eternity; and past, present, and future is a gigantic present to Him. It is us that lives in time.

If God knows you will do something, it is because He has been to the end and back. But that doesn't mean He is the one that manipulated your freewill to do that thing and end up there.

I think that's where you are having a hard time. You believe once God knows the end of a man, it is because God Himself orchestrated that end.

That's far from the truth. God can know what you will do and He is not the one that manipulated you to do it.

You wrongly believe that once someone can know the future, that means the person orchestrated that future. That is an error.

frank317:
Again... What does warning us of what he already knows will happen mean? If he warns us of what we know, does it mean he want us to so what he does not know? Does it make any sense to warn us of what he already knew must come to pass?

On the issue of why does God bother warning us, when He already knows what we will decide to do.

It is because God does not judge us based on His foreknowledge of what we will do, but based on what we do. Justice is letting people reap what they sow, not what you know they will sow.

If people are not warned or told the truth, they have a tenable reason or excuse on judgment day to say they didn't believe because they didn't hear.

And even if God knows that even if they had heard they still wouldn't believe, it would still be unjust to send them to the lake of fire.

Those who reject Christ after hearing of Him, did so of their own freewill. But for God to refuse to send them the warning because He knows what their response would be, would make God's judgment unjust.

Everyone still needs to hear the gospel and the warning, so that it would really be established and revealed that they truly did reject Christ of their own freewill.

You need to understand that foreknowledge is not the basis for a righteous judgment. People should be judged for what they did, not what you knew they will do.

You can't put someone in jail because you knew he will commit a crime in 5years time.

Foreknowledge is God's ability to know the end from the beginning because He dwells in eternity. But He doesn't judge us by His foreknowledge of us, He judges us by our actions. He relates with us in time.

Shalom

ayoku777:


Of course yes! God knew man would sin and fall.

Also;

1Peter 1v19-20 -But with the precious blood of Christ, as of the lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.





It wasn't God that let it happen as much as it was Adam that chose to disobey and fall.


So it was Adam's choice to disobey and sin and fall. And God did not manipulate Adam's freewill to prevent the fall.

You're contradicting yourself you know! Firstly, you said god knew man would sin and fall even before the foundation (before adam was created) of the earth and foreordained christ to serve as remission, mind you, adam was not yet created then. You then went ahead and said it wasn't god that let it happen.

God only prepared a plan of remission and redemption for man after it happens - should man accept the offer.

At the bolded, Does that mean god was DOUBTFUL on whether adam will fall or not?

ayoku777:


God's foreknowledge cannot be wrong. God knows the end from the beginning. God sits on the circumference of eternity; and past, present, and future is a gigantic present to Him. It is us that lives in time.

If God knows you will do something, it is because He has been to the end and back. But that doesn't mean He is the one that manipulated your freewill to do that thing and end up there.

I think that's where you are having a hard time. You believe once God knows the end of a man, it is because God Himself orchestrated that end.

That's far from the truth. God can know what you will do and He is not the one that manipulated you to do it.

You wrongly believe that once someone can know the future, that means the person orchestrated that future. That is an error.



On the issue of why does God bother warning us, when He already knows what we will decide to do.

It is because God does not judge us based on His foreknowledge of what we will do, but based on what we do. Justice is letting people reap what they sow, not what you know they will sow.

If people are not warned or told the truth, they have a tenable reason or excuse on judgment day to say they didn't believe because they didn't hear.

And even if God knows that even if they had heard they still wouldn't believe, it would still be unjust to send them to the lake of fire.

Those who reject Christ after hearing of Him, did so of their own freewill. But for God to refuse to send them the warning because He knows what their response would be, would make God's judgment unjust.

Everyone still needs to hear the gospel and the warning, so that it would really be established and revealed that they truly did reject Christ of their own freewill.

You need to understand that foreknowledge is not the basis for a righteous judgment. People should be judged for what they did, not what you knew they will do.

You can't put someone in jail because you knew he will commit a crime in 5years time.

Foreknowledge is God's ability to know the end from the beginning because He dwells in eternity. But He doesn't judge us by His foreknowledge of us, He judges us by our actions. He relates with us in time.

Shalom

Powerful

foreKNOWLEDGE remains KNOWLEDGE.
God's foreknowledge does not diminish man's responsibility for his deeds

ayoku777:


Ofcourse there is a moral reason behind freewill. Freewill makes where a man end up entirely his choice and doing. And that is justice.



With freewill you can obey or disobey the will of God. But whatever you do will be your choice. So you don't automatically manifest God's will when you exercise freewill.

You can use your freewill to disobey God and go against His will.

John 1v11 -He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Acts 7v51 -Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.



Yes, with our freewill we can alter God's will for our personal lives. God's will is not always done. Our choices can delay or even derail God's will for our personal lives.

It is not God's will for anyone to go to hell.

2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

The lake of fire was made for the devil and his angels -not for man.

[color=red] Matthew 25v41 -Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Lake or fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. And its not God's will for any man to end up there. Men end up there of their own freewill -against God's will.

So yes, God's will is not always done in our lives. We have a freewill, and what we do with it is our choice and the attendant consequence is our doing.

Shalom

Now you agree with me that sin is the disobedience of God's commands? If so, doesn't God punish the exercise of freewill in as far as it goes again God's commands?

ayoku777:


God's foreknowledge cannot be wrong. God knows the end from the beginning. God sits on the circumference of eternity; and past, present, and future is a gigantic present to Him. It is us that lives in time.

Thank you

If God knows you will do something, it is because He has been to the end and back. But that doesn't mean He is the one that manipulated your freewill to do that thing and end up there.

You guys keep bringing manipulation up. Does he need to manipulate what he knows again? If he knew Adam would use his choice to fall and what he knew must come to pass, why does he need to manipulate anyone again?

I think that's where you are having a hard time. You believe once God knows the end of a man, it is because God Himself orchestrated that end.

No... That's not what I believe. You already said it that God's knowledge can never be wrong. What choice again does man has? Can man make a choice contrary to God's knowledge?

That's far from the truth. God can know what you will do and He is not the one that manipulated you to do it.

Irrelevant to the question.

You wrongly believe that once someone can know the future, that means the person orchestrated that future. That is an error.

Again Irrelevant to the question. I never mentioned that God orchestrated anything. Seriously he has no reason to orchestrate what he already knows. But you have mentioned that we are bound to do what he knows recall? Let me quote you "God's foreknowledge cannot be wrong" that mean we are actually at the mercy of what God already knows despite our choices.

On the issue of why does God bother warning us, when He already knows what we will decide to do.

It is because God does not judge us based on His foreknowledge of what we will do, but based on what we do. Justice is letting people reap what they sow, not what you know they will sow.

What we do is what he already knows, how do u intend to separate the two.

If people are not warned or told the truth, they have a tenable reason or excuse on judgment day to say they didn't believe because they didn't hear.

And even if God knows that even if they had heard they still wouldn't believe, it would still be unjust to send them to the lake of fire.

Those who reject Christ after hearing of Him, did so of their own freewill. But for God to refuse to send them the warning because He knows what their response would be, would make God's judgment unjust.

Everyone still needs to hear the gospel and the warning, so that it would really be established and revealed that they truly did reject Christ of their own freewill.

Again... What's the point of warning us? Is so that we can decide to do what he does not know? How is that possible when his foreknowledge must be?

You need to understand that foreknowledge is not the basis for a righteous judgment. People should be judged for what they did, not what you knew they will do.

Again, what people do is what God already knows... How can u separate the two?

You can't put someone in jail because you knew he will commit a crime in 5years time.

Make it more Personal... If I know my son will go to jain in five years time, I will, as a father do everything I can to stop him rather than just sit and wait for five years and put him to jail. If I cannot stop him... I will regard myself as a failure of a father.

Foreknowledge is God's ability to know the end from the beginning because He dwells in eternity. But He doesn't judge us by His foreknowledge of us, He judges us by our actions. He relates with us in time.

Shalom

Our action is what he already knows which must be... You can't separate the two.

Peace

Alexyswiss:
please I'm a little bit confused about this thought..

They said God is omnipotent..and even omnipresent

and he sees the future...and know everything that would happen next right?? and can even do and undo

okay...does this means that God knew Eve would be deceived and Adam would fall with her?

why did he let that happen?...does this also means he wanted man to fall so that sin would come into this world and man would go through suffering?

pls answer with biblical reference if any

To confuse you further. If God is omnipotent, that means he can do everything and anything. But picture this: Can an Omnipotent God create the biggest Mountain that ever existed? Your answer should be yes.

Can this God create this mountain to be so big that He himself can't lift it?

Answer that

... my point is Live your life and leave God worries to the armaggedonists

Kay17:


Now you agree with me that sin is the disobedience of God's commands? If so, doesn't God punish the exercise of freewill in as far as it goes again God's commands?

God let's us reap what we sow. What's the issue there? That's justice.

Epimetheus:


To confuse you further. If God is omnipotent, that means he can do everything and anything. But picture this: Can an Omnipotent God create the biggest Mountain that ever existed? Your answer should be yes.

Can this God create this mountain to be so big that He himself can't lift it?

Answer that

... my point is Live your life and leave God worries to the armaggedonists

Don't be silly with kindergarten trick questions,
He can't do that because it contradicts his omnipotence. He is bound by His omnipotence.

ayoku777:


You're right, God has the power to manipulate a man's freewill. And there was even an instance in scripture where He did. When God made King Abimelech to not touch Sarah.

Gen 20v6 -And God said unto him (Abimelech) in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

You see that? Abimelech did not refuse to touch Sarah out of his own freewill. No, God made him not to touch her. So yes, God can manipulate freewill.

But I have done some little study, and I stand to be corrected. But not only were the instances in scripture where God manipulated a man's freewill less than one percent, God also did it only when the fulfilment of a messianic prophecy or promise was at stake.

It seems that when it has to do with the kingdom mandate and the fulfilment of messianic prophecies, God always plays His sovereignty card.

But the other 99% of the times, when it has to do with the everyday choices of man, God does not manipulate man's freewill. He leaves us with our freewill and choices we make with it.

He will only warn us about our actions, and the consequences of those actions. But in His grace He will also make provisions for our remission and redemption if we are willing to accept the offer.

If God just goes around pulling His weight on all of us and manipulating our freewill up and down; then judgment day would be a charade. Since God would then be judging us, not for what we did, but what He manipulated us to do.

And secondly, God is raising a family of priests and kings who will reign with Jesus in the age to come.

If God just manipulates our will, then our Christlikeness will not be a true reflection of our love for God and our personal desire to be like Him, but a product of God manipulating our will and moulding us by force into the image of His Son. That will not be true maturity.

So God swooping in and saving the day everytime by making sure that what we do is always the good He manipulates us to do. That would not make us tried and tested priests and kings. It will not make our maturity true.

There is so much more to be said. But let me stop here. The Holy Spirit will open our understanding and guide us into all truth in Jesus name.

Shalom.

thxxx