OLAADEGBU:


Quirinius' census is an important historical marker for ‪‎Jesus‬' birth - but it doesn't seem to match history. Why? Does Luke's claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem at the time of Quirinius' census match the historical record? Is this an example of a contradiction?

OLAADEGBU:


Suggested answer:

OLAADEGBU:


Suggested answer:

urahara:



No SINGLE SOUL HAS EVER governed a Roman province twice in the whole of Roman history

OLAADEGBU:


Suggested answer:

OLAADEGBU:


Suggested answer:

Quirinius actually ruled Syria on two separate occasions and there were actually two censuses taken.

it doesn't seem to match history. Why? Does Luke's claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem at the time of Quirinius' census match the historical record? Is this an example of a contradiction?

Further, the Christian doctrine of the inerrancy of the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21) leads us to accept explanation (2) or (3) as the most likely, with the most evidence pointing to explanation (3). The Bible is true and spoken from God's mouth (God-breathed), and we accept it as truth more than the historical writings of the Romans or even the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus.

urahara:


Luke and Matthew went through the stress of inventing the fables of Jesus birth just to fulfill what they thought to be a messianic prophecy and they ended up with contradictory and historically false stories

PastorAIO:


Can you give us any example in any text where protos is used in a similar construction to mean 'before'?

PastorAIO:


Secondly, this statement:


is a lie.

Here is a list of the Roman governors of Syria.

Propraetorial Imperial Legates of Roman Syria (27 BC to 135 AD)[edit]
Date Governor
25 – 23 BC Marcus Terentius Varro
23 – 13 BC Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa
13/12 – 10/9 BC Marcus Titius
9 – 7/6 BC Gaius Sentius Saturninus
7/6 – 4 BC Publius Quinctilius Varus
4 – 1 BC Unknown[1]
1 BC – 4 AD Gaius Julius Caesar Vipsanianus
4 – 5 Lucius Volusius Saturninus
6 – 12 Publius Sulpicius Quirinius

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_governors_of_Syria

PastorAIO:


So since we have now established that all your possible explanations are all false, we are stuck with your origin problem, namely,

Which now brings me to a very important premise at the basis of your thinking and the thinking of the writer from got?s.

PastorAIO:


[size=15pt]What is the basis of this your doctrine of bible inerrancy? Where did you get it from? Any intelligent person must now tackle the issue of where this doctrine came from since it is obvious that in matter of History it is very far from inerrant. It is full of so many holes that a basket would hold more water.[/size]

OLAADEGBU:


Does Luke's claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem at the time of Quirinius' census match the historical record?

OLAADEGBU:


Isn't it true that a writer must be innocent until proven guilty. It seems that you have concluded that the writer was guilty of inventing fables before you embarked on your investigative journey. Have you got any archaeological or historical evidence to prove your point?

OLAADEGBU:


What are the two examples protos can be used in its context?

And you believe wikipedia to be your infallible truth regarding your historical facts, no?

When you say we who are the 'we' that established your false conclusions? Please speak for yourself.

I am a Christian and I believe that the original Word of God is infallible and inerrant, that is my presupposition. I believe Genesis 1:1 that says God created the heavens and the earth. If God says it and I believe it that settles it. I am looking for those who start on those premises and work their way back to the answer provided in the Scripture. God is not a man that He should lie. Let God be true and all men liars.

PastorAIO:


Well, they are already evidently guilty of historical inaccuracy. The question that remains is whether they were guilty of purposely invention of fables, or whether it was an unintentional error. Either explanation is damning for you because you claim that that bible is inerrant, first. and that the writers were inspired by the holy spirit, second.

PastorAIO:


The bible is NOT inerrant.

PastorAIO:


I don't know. and it is besides the point. Let me repeat my question.

The question I asked you was if you could provide any example of protos being used to mean 'before' with that grammatical construction.

PastorAIO:


No I don't. I don't believe any textual source can provide infallible truth.

If you scroll down to the bottom of any wikipedia page you'll see references and footnotes that will direct you to more scholarly source if you desire to pursue the matter further.

PastorAIO:


Me, myself and I.

PastorAIO:


That conjunctive was very necessary cos it shows that you understand that being a Christian is not the same as worshipping the bible as infallible and inerrant despite the blatant inconstancy and outright historical falsehoods. So you are a christian AND and Bible worshipper. Well done.

Out of curiosity, What is the basis for your Bible Worship?

OLAADEGBU:


Here are some pertinent questions that sincere ardent bible scholars should get their teeth into before arriving at conclusions.

(1) Was there a decree in the first place for a census around the time of Christ's birth?
(2) If there was a decree of the emperor, would Galilee have been bound to comply?
(3) Would Joseph and Mary have been required to return to Bethlehem to register?
(4) Did Matthew and Luke contradict each other concerning the order of events surrounding the birth of Christ?
(5) Explain to us how Quirinius could have been the governor of Syria when Jesus was born (prior to 4 BC), which was before Quirinius became governor of Syria around AD 6?

These and many other intelligent questions should be asked when embarking on answering the OP.

OLAADEGBU:


What are the two examples protos can be used in its context?



And you believe wikipedia to be your infallible truth regarding your historical facts, no?



When you say we who are the 'we' that established your false conclusions? Please speak for yourself.



I am a Christian and I believe that the original Word of God is infallible and inerrant, that is my presupposition. I believe Genesis 1:1 that says God created the heavens and the earth. If God says it and I believe it that settles it. I am looking for those who start on those premises and work their way back to the answer provided in the Scripture. God is not a man that He should lie. Let God be true and all men liars.

OLAADEGBU:


If you were really sincere in your search for historical accuracy you would have given biblical writers the benefit of the doubt which is normally the case when dealing with other secular works but because of your prejudice against the Bible you and other skeptics assume the Bible is guilty before it is proven innocent. Why don't just say that you don't believe in the Word of God?



I expect critics and skeptics of the Bible to say that. That is why you are called an unbeliever.

OLAADEGBU:


So you don't know and you assert that Dr. Luke got it wrong?



Oh its just that you take your authority from wikipedia instead of the Bible?







Just as I cannot separate you from your words I cannot separate God from His Words. Believing in the Word of God is believing in God you cannot be selective. Jesus is the living Word of God. The written Word of God is God breathed just as Jesus was born through a holy vessel.

OLAADEGBU:


Suggested answer for the questions above:

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/birth/popular-conservative-journalist-attacks-genesis-and-jesus-birth/

Popular Conservative Journalist Attacks Genesis and the Birth of Christ

by Tim Chaffey on March 16, 2012
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Tim Chaffey, AiG–U.S., responds to claims made by journalist Andrew Bolt regarding supposed contradictions in the Bible.

Proof of God Shop Now

Andrew Bolt is a popular columnist whose articles appear in Australia's best-known newspapers. He also runs the most-read political blog in Australia and hosts a weekly television show called The Bolt Report. Recently, Mr. Bolt wrote a post in which he cited several alleged contradictions in Genesis as well as the events surrounding Christ's birth recorded in Matthew and Luke.¹ He based these claims on a book by historian (and atheist) Robin Lane Fox titled The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction in the Bible.

RATHER THAN GIVING BIBLICAL WRITERS THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, AS IS TYPICALLY DONE WITH OTHER WORKS, CRITICS AND SKEPTICS ASSUME THE BIBLE IS GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT—EVEN OCCASIONALLY ALLEGING THAT THE WRITER WAS SO INEPT THAT HE COULDN'T KEEP HIS STORY STRAIGHT IN SUCCESSIVE VERSES.

Answers in Genesis has published numerous articles dealing with alleged contradictions in the Bible, and the second volume of Demolishing Supposed Bible Contradictions was just published earlier this month. Many of these charges are simply the result of the critics' refusal to examine the context or check the original languages. Rather than giving biblical writers the benefit of the doubt, as is typically done with other works, critics and skeptics assume the Bible is guilty until proven innocent—even occasionally alleging that the writer was so inept that he couldn’t keep his story straight in successive verses. Also, these same critics rarely consult the wealth of resources from Bible-believing scholars that deal with these so-called contradictions to see if there are good explanations for the apparent discrepancies.

Foundational Flubs?

Bolt opened his post by writing, "It's long struck me how odd it is that the foundation story of the New Testament starts with an account of Jesus’ birth that cannot be right." He proceeded to describe what he found to be so "odd."

For a start, the Gospels have Christ being born in the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4BC, but also during the governorship in Syria of Quirinius, whick [sic] occurred a decade later, in the years 6–7 AD. Moreover, one Gospel has the parents of Jesus living befre [sic] his birth in Nazareth, in Galilee, but another in Bethlehem, in Judea. If in Nazareth, there would have been no reason at all for Mary and Joseph to travel to Bethlehem for a tax census decreed by the emperor—first, because Galilee would not have been bound by such a decree by the emperor, being under its own Tetrarch, and, second, because it would have made no sense for the Romans to want Joseph to go all the way to Bethlehem (allegedly the home of his ancestors) for a tax census when his property and goods were all back in Nazareth.

It is true that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1), and based on strong historical evidence, it is generally agreed upon that Herod died in 4 BC. How could Jesus have been born in the period designated as "BC" (i.e., “Before Christ”)? While there are many intricacies to explain every alteration to the calendar during the past two millennia, the short answer is that the basis for our modern calendar began in AD 525 when Dionysius Exiguus the Little was commissioned to develop a standard calendar for the Western Church. He decided to start the calendar in AD 1, but his calculations were off by approximately four years.² Given that Herod ordered the slaughter of all the children two years old and younger in Bethlehem, it is possible that Jesus was about two years old at that time, thus the year of His birth may have been 6 or 5 BC. Bolt is correct on this point, yet nearly every other statement he made in the above paragraph is disputed.

Did Luke accurately describe the census along with the people and events associated with it? Luke wrote, "And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria" (Luke 2:1–2).

Critics cite several difficulties in this passage. Was there even a decree for a census around the time of Christ’s birth? Would Galilee have been bound by a decree of the emperor? Would Joseph and Mary have been required to return to Bethlehem to register? Did Matthew and Luke contradict each other concerning the order of events surrounding the birth of Christ? How could Quirinius be the governor of Syria when Jesus was born (prior to 4 BC), which was before Quirinius became governor of Syria around AD 6? There are excellent answers for each of these objections.

First, the Romans at the time conducted a census roughly every 14 years, and they often took years to complete.³ For example, one census in Gaul took 40 years to complete. As a matter of fact, a census was ordered in 8 or 7 BC, which explains why Joseph and Mary were required to register around the time she was due to give birth (c. 6 or 5 BC).

Second, Galilee would certainly have been bound by a decree of the emperor. Bolt claims that they were under the rule of a tetrarch at the time. Even if that were true, they would have still been bound by the decree, because the tetrarch was under the emperor's authority. However, it isn't true that Galilee was under a tetrarch at the time of Christ’s birth, because Herod the Great ruled Galilee, in addition to Batanea, Perea, Idumea, and Judea. It wasn't until his death in 4 BC that his territory was divided among three of his sons (Archelaus, Antipas, and Philip), thus making them tetrarchs.

Third, Luke 2:3–4 states, "So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city. Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David." Were they required by the Romans to return to an ancestral city? Andrew Bolt, based on Fox’s book, says that they would not be. This is a common claim among skeptics, yet they either ignore or are ignorant of the decree by Gaius Vibius Maximus in AD 104, which is recorded on a papyrus kept in the British Museum. This decree commanded residents to return to their own provinces to "carry out the regular order of the census."⁴ Alfred Edersheim, a noted expert on first-century Judaism and Christianity, explained that, to quell Jewish anti-Roman sentiments, Herod caused the decree of Augustus to be carried out in the Jewish manner rather than according to Roman custom.

In consequence of 'the decree of Cæsar Augustus,' Herod directed a general registration to be made after the Jewish, rather than the Roman, manner. Practically the two would, indeed, in this instance, be very similar. According to the Roman law, all country-people were to be registered in their 'own city'—meaning thereby the town to which the village or place, where they were born, was attached. In so doing, the ‘house and lineage’ (the nomen and cognomen) of each were marked. According to the Jewish mode of registration, the people would have been enrolled according to tribes (מטות), families or clans (משפחות), and the house of their fathers (בית אבוח). But as the ten tribes had not returned to Palestine, this could only take place to a very limited extent, while it would be easy for each to be registered in ‘his own city.’ In the case of Joseph and Mary, whose descent from David was not only known, but where, for the sake of the unborn Messiah, it was most important that this should be distinctly noted, it was natural that, in accordance with Jewish law, they should have gone to Bethlehem.⁵
Although it may not have been commanded in every case, it was not uncommon for people to return to their own provinces during a Roman census, particularly in Israel where anti-Roman feelings ran hot, so there is no good reason to doubt Luke’s accuracy at this point.

Furthermore, notice that Bolt stated Bethlehem was "allegedly the home of [Joseph's] ancestors." So this journalist automatically assumes that the Bible is in error here, even though Matthew 1 and Luke 3 include genealogies that connect Christ’s parents to David, meaning that Bethlehem was the home of their ancestors. Also, the Messiah’s birthplace of Bethlehem was prophesied in Micah 5:2. So these are not mere allegations but are biblical fact.

Fourth, the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke do not contradict each other at any point. They can be perfectly reconciled with a bit of research. Bodie Hodge and I recently wrote some articles dealing with these alleged contradictions. See Christmas Timeline of the Biblical Account, Timeline Twisting Texts, and More Timeline Twisting for an in-depth look at these issues.

Fifth, perhaps the most difficult challenge raised by Bolt is whether or not Quirinius was the governor of Syria at the time of Christ’s birth. The problem is that historians generally agree that the governor of Syria at that time was a man named Quintilius Varus, and that Quirinius didn’t become governor of that region until AD 6 or 7. How can this possibly be reconciled? Three solutions have been proposed, and each of them has some merit. If one of these is true, then Bolt’s objection is overruled.

The first proposal accepts that Varus was governor, but he was not a good leader, losing three legions of soldiers in a battle in Germany. However, Quirinius was a strong military leader who put down the Homonadensian rebellion in Asia Minor. So when it came time for the census to be conducted, Caesar Augustus sent Quirinius to deal with the explosive region governed by Varus, essentially elevating Quirinius to the position of a governing authority—even higher than Governor Varus during that time. While describing a census that took place during Christ’s childhood, Josephus explained just how unstable Israel became when Rome conducted censuses.

Now Cyrenius [Quirinius], a Roman senator and one who had gone through other magistracies, and had passed through them till he had been consul, and one who, on other accounts, was of great dignity, came at this time into Syria, with a few others, being sent by Caesar to be a judge of that nation, and to take an account of their substance … came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance, and to dispose of Archelaus's money; (3) but the Jews, although at the beginning they took the report of a taxation heinously, yet did they leave off any farther opposition to it, by the persuasion of Joazar … yet there was one Judas, a Gaulonite … who, taking with him Sadduc, a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt, who both said that this taxation was no better than an introduction to slavery, and exhorted the nation to assert their liberty … so men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height. All sorts of misfortunes also sprang from these men, and the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree; (7) one violent war came upon us after another, and we lost our friends, who used to alleviate our pains; there were also very great robberies and murders of our principal men. This was done in pretense indeed for the public welfare, but in reality for the hopes of gain to themselves; (8 ) whence arose seditions, and from them murders of men, which sometimes fell on those of their own people (by the madness of these men towards one another, while their desire was that none of the adverse party might be left).⁶
Since the Jewish people often revolted against aggressive actions of their oppressors, such as taxation, Caesar would have made sure to send a highly qualified person to handle a difficult situation. Josephus recorded that Quirinius was just such a person. Luke did not use an official title for Quirinius, but said that he "was governing Syria" (Luke 2:2),⁷ meaning that Quirinius was in charge of that region during the time of the census. So this first explanation seems to work well.

The second proposal claims that Quirinius was actually the governor of Syria on two occasions—once at the time of Christ's birth, and then again about a decade later. Geisler and Howe stated, "A Latin inscription discovered in 1764 has been interpreted to refer to Quirinius as having served as governor of Syria on two occasions."⁸

A third possibility is to reconsider the common translation of the passage in question. "This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria" (Luke 2:2). This sentence could also be translated as "This census took place before Quirinius was governing Syria."⁹ This would require translating prōtos (“first”) as "before," which is plausible. If this is the proper way to understand the Greek, then any hint of a contradiction on this point disappears.

OLAADEGBU:


Here is a scholarly article that answers all the pertinent questions a sincere seeker should be asking.

PastorAIO:


I don't know. and it is besides the point. Let me repeat my question.

The question I asked you was if you could provide any example of protos being used to mean 'before' with that grammatical construction.



No I don't. I don't believe any textual source can provide infallible truth.

If you scroll down to the bottom of any wikipedia page you'll see references and footnotes that will direct you to more scholarly source if you desire to pursue the matter further.


Me, myself and I.



That conjunctive was very necessary cos it shows that you understand that being a Christian is not the same as worshipping the bible as infallible and inerrant despite the blatant inconstancy and outright historical falsehoods. So you are a christian AND and Bible worshipper. Well done.

Out of curiosity, What is the basis for your Bible Worship?

OLAADEGBU:


Here is a scholarly article that answers all the pertinent questions a sincere seeker should be asking.

OLAADEGBU:


Conclusion

The koran is the Word of God. It was written by men who were inspired and moved by muhammad to write what they did. Since God cannot lie, then His Word, in its original manuscripts, cannot be in error.

Hundreds of millions of people have staked their eternal destiny on the claims of the koran, and countless scholars have studied it throughout their lifetimes and come away believing it to be the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Word of God. This should cause critics and journalists like Andrew Bolt to be more careful in their research rather than attacking the Bible's truthfulness and flippantly charging it with error.

I would encourage Mr. Bolt and others who set out to ridicule the koran to spend some time reading the Bible and checking to see if maybe, just maybe, some muslims in the past two thousand years have ever taken the time to address these so-called contradictions. The fact is that muslims have been successfully defending their faith and God's Word for nearly two millennia. These supposed contradictions can be explained when one takes the time to actually study the koran and see what it does or doesn't say about these issues.

OLAADEGBU:


Conclusion

The koran is the Word of God. It was written by men who were inspired and moved by muhammad to write what he received from angel jibril . Since God cannot lie, then His Word, in its original manuscripts, cannot be in error.

Hundreds of millions of people have staked their eternal destiny on the claims of the koran, and countless scholars have studied it throughout their lifetimes and come away believing it to be the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Word of God. This should cause critics and journalists like Andrew Bolt to be more careful in their research rather than attacking the Bible's truthfulness and flippantly charging it with error.

I would encourage Mr. Bolt and others who set out to ridicule the koran to spend some time reading the Bible and checking to see if maybe, just maybe, some muslims in the past two thousand years have ever taken the time to address these so-called contradictions. The fact is that muslims have been successfully defending their faith and God's Word for nearly two millennia. These supposed contradictions can be explained when one takes the time to actually study the koran and see what it does or doesn't say about these issues.

johnydon22:


This thread is a very good case study to the outright dishonesty in Christian apologetics.

He first of all concluded on an answer before embarking on an enquiry, using belief as a foundation for an enquiry how can you ever expect that to be truthful?

He first established the bible as an inerrant source therefore can never be mistaken … (using his belief this time as a basis)

All his deductions therefore must never contradict that that belief of biblical inerrancy.

Like he did above discarding a possible conclusion just because it would then mar his belief in biblical inerrancy.

so you see, he is not looking for a truthful answer but rather an answer that will not contradict the biblical position which in fact was the source being questioned here..

since the bible is inerrant, why question it at all then?

He is not trying to reach a truthful deduction because he already concluded on what his answer must be uncaring whether it is true or not.

He rather is ok with what he wants to believe, what feels good to him rather than honestly open mindedly enquire to reach a truthful deduction.


That is stark dishonesty needed to protect the alleged words of an all knowing God...

I shudder at this..

Sarassin:


Johnnydon22. The only person on NL whose opinions I would actually pay to read.
The OP on the other hand is one of the most tunnel-visioned, hackneyed regurgitator of Christian apologetic semantic jiggery-pokery on NL.

Sarassin:


Johnnydon22. The only person on NL whose opinions I would actually pay to read.
The OP on the other hand is one of the most tunnel-visioned, hackneyed regurgitator of Christian apologetic semantic jiggery-pokery on NL.

Sarassin:


Johnnydon22. The only person on NL whose opinions I would actually pay to read.
The OP on the other hand is one of the most tunnel-visioned, hackneyed regurgitator of Christian apologetic semantic jiggery-pokery on NL.

OLAADEGBU:


That is just your personal depraved opinion, you have no facts to buttress your point.