Hello all,
I have been here for a little while now and this is my first encounter with a deist here on Nairaland, according to wikipedia;

Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for either faith or organized religion. Deists tend to, but do not necessarily, reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs, such as by miracles and revelations

I can understand when the theists acknowledges and serves God, but when it comes to the deist I am a  bit at a loss. So I am hoping he will throw more light on why we have to acknowledge God at all and of there are dire consequences for not.

So deep sight,
Is some God/being really a prerequisite for meaning and purpose in one's life?
Are we really under any obligation to entertain the idea of something existing when it has no relevance to our lives?
Does this supreme being matter?

Oya deep sight fire away. . . I'm most interested in my fate if I don't believe in your diety. . .

Please see this link:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-329406.0.html

But in summary, although one should pursue universal harmony in consonance with the laws of God, living right in those laws is sufficient, because God in HIS divine excellence is ultimately unapproachable. . .

Nevertheless, he still remains personal in a manner of speaking, and one can access high spirituality by tuning in to HIM.

So i was going through your version of Deism on the other thread and i thought i would try to raise a few points which stick out.I know you said that you were not providing a rational justification for your worldview,but i do believe it is tantamount that one's beliefs should atleast be internally consistent and better yet,map to reality.

You said in the other thread:

I do not believe that God is impersonal, although i am certain that God's core, is absolutely unknowable and unnapproachable.A deep mystery beyond all time and all space.

What do you mean by God's core?do you mean God's nature or purpose?And when you say that its unapproachable and unknowable do you mean,that there is no way that humans can come to know this God personally?

but later on in the same post you said

I called myself an empirical and intuitive Deist. . . empirical because i strongly believe that the existence of the Supreme Deity can be logically deduced or inferred. . . intuitive because i believe that a spark of the creator-nature residing within each human being, can lead one to intuitively sense the things of God, even as the greatest simpleton on earth, without the need for advanced thinking.

While i do agree that a Deist god can be logically inferred from logical deductions supported by empirical evidence from our universe - such as a first cause argument- , according to your first statement,a deist god is inherently unknowable.therefore it seems that humans possessing an intuitive knowledge of the deist god as you say in your second statement seems to be contradicting your initial position that a deist god is ultimately unknowable.

Unless your initial statement meant that God's true nature is unknowable,hence what we possess is a sort of feeling that there is a God but who's nature is unknowable.For example,A person can posses an intuitive feeling that Aliens do ewxist,without an idea of how exactly those aliens look like.

Is this what you mean when you say God's core is unknowable?

[QUOTE]Space. . . Infinite. . .

Time. . . Eternal. . .

Thus an infinite still oneness of infinity.

That oneness of infinity is a singularity, an absolute oneness of all.[/QUOTE]

This to me doesn't really make alot of sense.As a desit you ought to belief that Space and time are finite.After all,God did create Space and timeunles you are using these words as metaphors.Maybe you could elaborate.

[QUOTE]That absolute oneness of infinity, is thus a reality that needn't be caused. It is real, permanent, extant, and since infinite, is inherently in itself all things that could ever be. That oneness of Infinity, is what i understand to be God.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure what you mean when you use infinity.Are you saying that reality is infinite?And when you talk of reality do you mean the universe?
This is because when you say infinity is God,it makes no sense to me.because,infinity is simply a mathematical concept.If infinity = God,then god is a mathematical concept.mathematical concepts do not stand in causal relations.that is,mathematical concepts do not cause anything.hence,God could not have caused the universe to come into existence.

[QUOTE]Because God is Infinite then, he carries within his core the following -

   1. Perfection (Oneness implies no deviation or variation and is the ultimate perfection. But this is a deep area, it is not perfection as conceived by the Abrahamic religions, it is the perfection of a singularity)

  2. Eternity

  3. The In-substantiate Imprimatur for everything that exists.

Given God's eternal nature, everything that lies within him expresses itself.[/QUOTE]

remember your first statement was that God's core is unknowable?but then it seems you have gone ahead and explained god's core in the above statement.How did you come across this knowledge if God's core is unknowable?How do you know that God is perfection etc etc?

Even assuming for a moment that we could know God's core,how would we know it?Since this deist God has not sent a prophet or messenger or teacher or even revealed himself in any scripture,how would we know His intentions?What if he simply doesn't care what we do?or worse still what if he is a tyrant and his actually the cause of all the suffering that we are going through? How would we know anything about the nature of this God apart from the fact that he created the universe?

[QUOTE]Everything that exists, therefore, exists within God'S IN-SUBSTANTIATE MIND, or as an expression of that Mind.

Harmony.

Because God is a singularity, he connotes oneness and therefore perfect harmony. This is why all things in nature strive towards harmony.

And this forms the basis for the human conscience.

Human Beings are Spirit Sparks emerging from the Light of God (all things emerge from God). Initially unconscious, we live within creation striving towards perfection and harmony. God, in his perfect grace, allows this process to be a difficult and even tortuous one, thus permitting the human spirit develop, grow, and form its own complete consciousness within reality.

Life is a dream. And its going on in the ultimate mind. God's mind. That mind is reality.

Because that mind is infinite, it contains all things, good and evil, and thus Good and Evil will always express themselves in creation.

This leads to balance, and also, ultimately, strives towards perfection - towards God.
[/QUOTE]

Again,how do we know all this since the deist God has not revealed anything about his attitudes towards man,nor nature.We might be suffering simply because he doesn't care what is happening to us,and he has let nature to run it course.

I know you said that you will not defend your position,but i raised some of those points so that atleast you can reflect on your own worldview and see if it is consistent with itself.As far as i can tell it is highly contradictory,in one instance God i a singularity,in the other he's infinity.In other areas you are able to explain his purpose and nature,and in other areas he's unknowable.This worldview also entails claims that do not map onto reality.Equaling god to a singularity does not really make sense since we know a singularity is material which is finite.Singularities do not possess such attributes as perfection,purpose or eternity.

Sorry for the long post.It is okay Deep Sight if you will not reply to the post.This post was jnot meant as a debate or form of argument.Just expressing my thoughts on your worldview.

i've kind of always seen deism as an halfway house from theism to agnosticism/atheism.

Deep Sight - what was your original religion and what made you give it up?

bawomolo:

i've kind of always seen deism as an halfway house from theism to agnosticism/atheism.

Deep Sight - what was your original religion and what made you give it up?

Christianity.

But i have flirted with quite alot. . . Rosicrusians, The Grail Message, Islam, Buddhism, Jehovah's witnesses . . . in the constant search for truth.

Dogma is what chased me away. . . i could see some of the obvious fallacies in dogmatic claims and i hated the way people decide that matters of faith must never be reasoned out at all. Imagine the christian claim that Jesus of Nazareth is God ? ? ? ?

I have always believed in God (although for some time about 10 years ago when in university, i struggled to conceptualize HIM and almost became atheistic or more precisely, agnostic).

The truth is that if one lives in tandem with natural law and conscience, it will be well with your spirit and your life even if you have no concept of God.

But a concept of God will broaden every man's mind and spirit extensively, and enrich your life with purpose.

Chrisbenogor:


Is some God/being really a prerequisite for meaning and purpose in one's life?
Are we really under any obligation to entertain the idea of something existing when it has no relevance to our lives?
Does this supreme being matter?

If one lives in tandem with natural law and conscience, without any reference to God, it is well with one.

However natural laws are God's laws.

And a knowledge of God enriches the human spirit.

Deep Sight:


But a concept of God will broaden every man's mind and spirit extensively, and enrich your life with purpose.

It could. But enrichment and purpose can be found outside of religion, or outside any concept of God.

God, as conceived by man, has a history. It isn't, IMO (from my studies), just some innate concept that lies deep in the heart of men. It is social conditioning. We just get exposed to this stuff so early in our lives that we think that is the way things are. That there must be some power out there running the show. Most people that grow up outside of religious influences don't have the need to find purpose and enrichment thru belief in a deity. It sounds like madness to them.  There are a few that do, but those are isolated cases, and for the most part are people in vulnerable situations who get "converted" by believers.

@Deepsight

Am I right in summarising your belief as being something like this:

God created the Universe and some laws to govern it and he is not overtly bothered with what we do (i.e interfere in our affairs much) but allows his laws to govern it?

Can I then ask what was his motivation in creating such a rat race in the first instance? did the creation of the universe serve any purpose for God? Apart from affirming his own self importance as most religions tend to suggest.

Hello deep sight,
Thank you for your replies although after reading the link you gave I could not find where concrete answers to my questions, we will discuss natural law and conscience as time goes on because this is in effort to really fully understand your position and its implications. Thus I need an answer that is a little bit more substantial. Again I ask

1. Is some God/being really a prerequisite for meaning and purpose in one's life?
2. Are we really under any obligation to entertain the idea of something existing when it has no relevance to our lives?
3. Do you have any idea why God created us?

I do not want to counter your answers I just want to understand where you are coming from bro.
Thanks.

@ Deep sight
A couple of years ago i read a very enlightening book written by Thomas paine, a deist, called 'The Age of Reason'.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Age-Reason-Thomas-Paine/dp/0486433935/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254219099&sr=8-1

Synopsis
"Written in the years from 1792 to 1795 while Thomas Paine was in prison, The Age of Reason shocked eighteenth-century readers with its attack on the conventions of Christianity. Based on years of study and reflection by the author, the work is written from the deist point of view and questions Christian beliefs and the role of religion in society. Its resonance remains undiminished after two centuries and it continues to influence thinkers around the world."

I was just wondering if you had read it, and if not you might find it very interesting.

I like the way that deists try to understand the bigger picture and not just the tunnel vision that their particular religions is right and all non believers in it are wrong and will be punished in hell.

Even Barack Obama has sent his children to a deist school.

respects

Chrisbenogor:

Hello deep sight,
Thank you for your replies although after reading the link you gave I could not find where concrete answers to my questions, we will discuss natural law and conscience as time goes on because this is in effort to really fully understand your position and its implications. Thus I need an answer that is a little bit more substantial. Again I ask

1. Is some God/being really a prerequisite for meaning and purpose in one's life?
2. Are we really under any obligation to entertain the idea of something existing when it has no relevance to our lives?
3. Do you have any idea why God created us?

I do not want to counter your answers I just want to understand where you are coming from bro.
Thanks.

Hi Chris, I had felt i had addressed this. But for clarity let me state as follows -

I described the perfection of God (perfection here refers not to the Abrahamic ideas of perfection, but to Divine Singularity and immutability) as being a global "oneness." If we are able to conceptualize this properly we should recognise God as being firmly beyond anything in creation. The laws set in motion by God (which laws lie inherent in God as the very cause of all reality) are perfect and suit the purpose of creation to a tee.

For this reason when a man jumps up, he falls down, the law of gravity taking perfect effect just as surely as the law of karma will assure a falling down, for every jumping up, metaphorically speaking. The richness and perefction of the laws of God are such that they are self sufficient, and accordingly living in tandem with nature and conscience is all that a man needs in this life, the adamantine laws of God will doubtless operate on every person's destiny in such a manner as to deliver to each person that which he deserves based on the excercise of his free-will.

Thus, globally speaking, one does not necessarily have to know, interact with, or even contemplate God in order to live a fruitful life on a basic level, as God in his Divine Abstraction is absolutely unsearchable and indeed incomprehensible.

Nevertheless it is important to add that knowing the things of God, the laws of God, and the purposes of God will enrich a man's life beyond compare. We can decipher these things by reading the Book of Life - which is nature around us. Therein, all the secrets, all the lessons, and all the things of God which we need to know, are clearly revealed. Therein, without recourse to any church or mosque, and without recourse to any "saviour" or "prophet", every man can discern his conscience, and live in justice and purity, with a bold hope of one meaningful and beautiful life after another.

To my mind, the only real danger inherent in not believeing in God, is that it leads some people to entirely doubt the existence of any spirituality whatsoever, and i am certain that such an attitude will serve to weaken the spiritual part of a persons's life, in some degree or the other.

Regarding the question of why God created us, let me briefly say this. Creation is nothing but the natural self - expression of God's mind, and it could not be otherwise. You, Chris, have thoughts everyday, and those thoughts are real things. On the divine level, thoughts become reality and translate into creation.

I think karma is bullshit!! I think reincarnation is bullshit too. Just my opinion.

Krayola:

I think karma is bullshit!! I think reincarnation is bullshit too. Just my opinion.

Can you tell us why you think Karma is bullshit?

Has it ever occured to you that it is the spiritual variant or equivalent of the law of gravity?

Each person is a small spiritual magnet, just like the earth. When you throw something away from you (such as love or hatred) it rebounds based on magnetism. Just the way gravity functions in physical terms.

Have you not observed even in more simple terms, how a smile elicits a smile, and hatred begets hatred - every day?

What do you think?

Deep Sight:

Can you tell us why you think Karma is bullshit?

Has it ever occured to you that it is the spiritual variant or equivalent of the law of gravity?

Each person is a small spiritual magnet, just like the earth. When you throw something away from you (such as love or hatred) it rebounds based on magnetism. Just the way gravity functions in physical terms.

Have you not observed even in more simple terms, how a smile elicits a smile, and hatred begets hatred - every day?

What do you think?

I think that all sounds nice and all, but there isn't much to back it up. I understand what it's all about, I just don't buy it. It's just some shit that sounds deep but doesn't mean much to me. 

I smile whether or not i get one on return. . a lot of the time i don't get a smile in return. I'm nice to people most of the time, though i admit if provoked I can be an animal. . .but for the most part i try to be a nice guy. Not cause i expect anything in return, that's just who I am. I understand that some people aren't very pleasant. . . but that is just who they are. . . we need all sorts of people, and personalities and attitudes etc to make life the colorful experience that it is. Things are just the way they are IMO. We should try to help people in need because suffering sucks. . . If that isn't enough motivation to be good, then we're doomed imo. All the spiritual stuff is great and all, but there isn't much to support any of those claims except a lot of appeals in "intuition" of "u feel it deep inside u" or some other shit like that.

But what do you think of the gravity argument? Does it not seem to you that an observable physical law like that will in reality be a universal principle merely appearing in different forms in different realms. . .?

Deep Sight:

But what do you think of the gravity argument? Does it not seem to you that an observable physical law like that will in reality be a universal principle merely appearing in different forms in different realms. . .?

Gravity is observable. . . it effects my life directly, so i can plan my life around its effects. e.g i won't jump out of a 10th floor window.

All these "other realms" do not mean shit to me because i don't know for sure if they exist, and I am yet to observe any of their effects. When/if i verify that they exist and are of consequence, i'll plan my life accordingly. For now I just do good for goodness sake.

Doing good for goodness sake only is absolutely correct.

What about doing evil. Is it perhaps worthwhile to be aware that evil will rebound on us?

What about that little saying - what goes around comes around? Is it meaningful for u?

Do you belive that you are a material body only?

Do you think there is a spiritual part to you?

Thank you deep sight, I can summarize therefore that acknowledging that there is a God is not important. This brings me to the laws you were talking about, physical and spiritual you say. As for the physical laws yes I agree with you we have to strive to understand them, the water cycle, nitrogen cycle and so on. But spirituality is a different ball game entirely, the reason being since there is no way to verify if what you are saying is infact true. I think the first thing you have to explain is how you are sure this spiritual plane exists to you and if it means the same thing to you as the other spiritual people. You see when I talk water cycle we can always demonstrate it with a small experiment but when you say karma  how do we go about that?
For instance I think a strong case can be made that adolf hitler was an exception to the law of karma no?

Deep Sight:


What about doing evil. Is it perhaps worthwhile to be aware that evil will rebound on us?

I don't think doing evil will necessarily rebound. I think evil is a relative term. Is it evil to kidnap a terrorist's child with the hope of stopping terror? how would karma work in such a situation?

I think the effects of evil (slavery, hunger, pollution etc) are here for all to see. . . that should tell us why we should abstain from it. .  because over the long term we all suffer as a result

Deep Sight:

What about that little saying - what goes around comes around? Is it meaningful for u?

I don't buy it. We have good things happen sometimes, we have bad things happen sometimes. That is life.
I've never met a good person that mostly had good stuff happen to them or bad person that mostly had bad stuff. I know that is not how karma works, but that is what that saying suggests.

Deep Sight:

Do you belive that you are a material body only?

I don't believe stuff. . . i just think stuff. All my opinions are tentative. . .  I'm ever open to new ideas.

It is possible all i am is a physical body, and there could be more to it.

Deep Sight:

Do you think there is a spiritual part to you?

I would like to think there is, but I realize it has to do with conditioning. I was raised in a devoutly christian home and was surrounded by a lot of that "spiritual" talk for a long long time. So it's stuck somewhere in the background. I don't see the need for it though. I try to use my head, and my heart sometimes. I do a lot of volunteer work (a retirement home, and a sick kids hospital), and get involved in charity stuff as much as i can. .  I do it cause my heart tells me to. . not for any deep spiritual reason or any expectation of any kind of reward. I still have bad stuff happen to me. e.g. some girl i'm trying to bang won't cheat on her boyfriend. If u see er butt u'll understand why that is pure evil. Now if i run her boyfriend over with a truck, would that be evil?

Chrisbenogor:

Thank you deep sight, I can summarize therefore that acknowledging that there is a God is not important.

Yes. . .God does not need anybody's acknowledgement. He is too transcendant for that. BUT! - Note carefully my words:

Deep Sight:


Nevertheless it is important to add that knowing the things of God, the laws of God, and the purposes of God will enrich a man's life beyond compare. We can decipher these things by reading the Book of Life - which is nature around us. Therein, all the secrets, all the lessons, and all the things of God which we need to know, are clearly revealed. Therein, without recourse to any church or mosque, and without recourse to any "saviour" or "prophet", every man can discern his conscience, and live in justice and purity, with a bold hope of one meaningful and beautiful life after another.

To my mind, the only real danger inherent in not believeing in God, is that it leads some people to entirely doubt the existence of any spirituality whatsoever, and i am certain that such an attitude will serve to weaken the spiritual part of a persons's life, in some degree or the other.