felixomor1:


Is it right or wrong, first decide?
Moreover was disrespecting prophets not already part of the law?

If u like break laws and cry foul when the hammer falls on ur head.

And Please where is it legal to curse at law enforcement officers?
That must be a new one. Please enlighten me.

You are actually justifying murder cuz it was in Gods case. I honestly don't know what to tell you again

jonbellion:
because you don't know doesn't mean it's not legal. It's just not advisable cuz it may turn out wrong. It's like you've not heard of freedom of speech oo

Ur freedom of speech ends where another person's own starts. And also where the law starts..
And that law is represented by the officer.
U can see the type of reasoning u r using. No wonder.

Be using google as ur Constitution there. Lol

Moreover the people u even captured seem to also be groaning like angry kids who were mocking the prophet and then complaining after they were punished.

Continue with ur google law and order.

felixomor1:


Ur freedom of speech ends where another person's own starts. And also where the law starts..
And that law is represented by the officer.
U can see the type of reasoning u r using. No wonder.

Be using google as ur Constitution there. Lol

Moreover the people u even captured seem to also be groaning like angry kids who were mocking the prophet and then complaining after they were punished.

Continue with ur google law and order.

what are you saying??
I said it is legal to curse at the police but it is not advisable. Is that so hard to understand. It is way better in the United states though you can be harassed
Something that is in the first amendment
*facepalm*

felixomor1:


Ur freedom of speech ends where another person's own starts. And also where the law starts..
And that law is represented by the officer.
U can see the type of reasoning u r using. No wonder.

Be using google as ur Constitution there. Lol

Moreover the people u even captured seem to also be groaning like angry kids who were mocking the prophet and then complaining after they were punished.

Continue with ur google law and order.

.

jonbellion:
.

Ok something can be legal and not advisable.
Yeah right.
So also i would not advise anybody to mock a genuine prophet or else u would end up groaning like those angry kids on ur google page.

felixomor1:


Sorry, u r not making any point.

If u disobey laws u pay for it. And the judge administers the punishment.

U didnt make any point by listing the laws.
Sorry!

Those are now laws and not commands?

Ok. It is god's laws that you should do what is listed. How many have you done?

hahn:


Those are now laws and not commands?

Ok. It is god's laws that you should do what is listed. How many have you done?

How many I (me) have done is now the issue?

donnffd:
This is the go to question for the theist who is arguing with the non-believer, it is often said, "if you dont believe in God, why don't you go about raping and killing people". it is a very childish question but i want to turn the tables around and pose the question to theists.

Why is murder wrong?

Let me reframe it like this;

Is murder wrong because it is just wrong or is it wrong because God says its wrong?

if the former is the case, then it means God is not needed to have morality, but if you say the latter is the case, then it means morality is arbitrary(and not as objective as theists makes it sound).

So which is it?

Well in my humble opinion, as long as there is a God, murder is not wrong(yes i said it), why?, you might ask!, its follows from this simple logic:

- Everything that happens is God's plan
- God's plan is ultimately good
- Killing someone is part of God's plan which in essence is ultimately good.

If killing someone would send the person to heaven to spend an eternity with God, then why is murder wrong?, and the killer could ultimately repent before dying so everybody wins!

On the otherhand, if there was no God, then murder would be the greatest evil because it would follow that since this is the only life we have, then ending it abruptly would be the greatest pain you can inflict on someone and even yourself because the rest of your single short life would be spent behind bars.

I can already hear rebuttals to the argument saying God specifically said it in the bible that one shall not kill, but God himself killed far more people than the devil did in the bible, so drowning everyone on earth can be regarded as being Godly.

First, you have made a vital point to be considered wholeheartedly. But there is something you pointed out which I am quite at odds with. There is nothing that is predestined, only lazy people think so. People who lack the courage to face the trials before them. People whose thinking is abysmal and vehicled by fear of things which are mundane. Morality, though personal, at times need to be instilled or inculcated so as to make one aware of things which are morally debasing or upholding. Murder is totally immoral and against life but even with that, people use it as basis for vengeance or resentment towards inflicted harm and thus, the need to forgive arises and God has just made us aware of the benefits of forgiveness and then such a precept becomes personal being aware of it as a thinking person. Moral value becomes personal when it is inculcated.

jonbellion:
stop arguing with that guy he likes feeling asif he's making sense that's one thing I've come to observe

Yea, its just fruitless engaging with some of these peeps...

donnffd:


Yea, its just fruitless engaging with some of these peeps...

I dey tell you

lordnicklaus:

First, you have made a vital point to be considered wholeheartedly. But there is something you pointed out which I am quite at odds with. There is nothing that is predestined, only lazy people think so. People who lack the courage to face the trials before them. People whose thinking is abysmal and vehicled by fear of things which are mundane. Morality, though personal, at times need to be instilled or inculcated so as to make one aware of things which are morally debasing or upholding. Murder is totally immoral and against life but even with that, people use it as basis for vengeance or resentment towards inflicted harm and thus, the need to forgive arises and God has just made us aware of the benefits of forgiveness and then such a precept becomes personal being aware of it as a thinking person. Moral value becomes personal when it is inculcated.

Superb response and i agree with you wholeheartedly, but my intention was to find out the reason for being moral purely from a theistic point of view. We know inherently know that murder is bad, but many claims that this knowledge comes from God, so if it really does, then by which standard those God set his own morality?, by his own will or by what is true independant of reality?

If it is by his own will, then morality isnt really objective since it will change according to the commands of God and if it is independant of reality then it means God was not responsible for morality in the first place!.

donnffd:


Are you saying it is wrong because God said so?

If yes, then isnt morality subjective to God's command?, what if God commands you to kill your child like he did with abraham, would it still be wrong then?

I'm saying that goodness is intrinsic to God's being, his nature and character defines what is good, and his commands are a manifestation of his nature.

What if God commanded me to kill my child? What if I was the father of Stalin or hitler?

Killing is not the same as murder, me killing in self defense is not evil or wrong becuz my reasons for killing are adequate.

oh...this is why 4everGod opened that thread...i see

Can somebody please relate this topic to the murder of jesus?

Touchnot01:
Definately not by any mans standard. You or any other person have no grounds to tell another what to do.

If this is the only life we have, then the best advise is that everyone do what makes them happy with their short time. It does not really matter what your perception of good or bad is.

Just do what makes you happy.

This is exactly why religion/theism is important. You think if everyone is allowed to do what makes them happy, the world will be a better place, or when morality becomes subjected to our individual intepretation of it, The world will improve?

The answer is a capital NO, Mankind will self destruct, The result will be catastrophic to humanity.

Think of it this way, If all the rapists thieves,
paedophiles,killers,looters sadomasochist etc, on earth were allowed to do what actually makes them happy.... A world where no one stands for something will fall for anything.

Thats why religion acts like some kind of restraint, it helps to keep us in check. the fight against religion is actually an indirect attempt to annihilate mankind.

felixomor1:
What I can deduce from this write up is that if the judge of a supreme court sentences a convict to death for example, the judge becomes a murderer?

The way people are reasoning nowwdays sha..
I can only but wonder where the world is going.

Oh infact, i was about to reply this op, until i saw ur response. Thank you, you have saved me from the stress of typing.

Good response.

peacesamuel94:




This is exactly why religion/theism is important. You think if everyone is allowed to do what makes them happy, the world will be a better place, or when morality becomes subjected to our individual intepretation of it, The world will improve?

The answer is a capital NO, Mankind will self destruct, The result will be catastrophic to humanity.

Think of it this way, If all the rapists thieves,
paedophiles,killers,looters sadomasochist etc, on earth were allowed to do what actually makes them happy.... A world where no one stands for something will fall for anything.

Thats why religion acts like some kind of restraint, it helps to keep us in check. the fight against religion is actually an indirect attempt to annihilate mankind.

if that were to be true..
christians wont outnumber atheists in prisons
but reverse is the fact.
And secular societis wont fare better
reverse is the case
the world is even more peaceful as secularism increases..
the top ten peaceful countries are the least religious...
And to show for it,,the happiest countries are the least religious

if secularism is catastrophic
[url=jezebel.com/godless-parents-are-doing-a-better-job-1682844001]secular children wont fare better[/url]
but we see them doing so..

Richirich713:



I'm saying that goodness is intrinsic to God's being, his nature and character defines what is good, and his commands are a manifestation of his nature.

What if God commanded me to kill my child? What if I was the father of Stalin or hitler?

Killing is not the same as murder, me killing in self defense is not evil or wrong becuz my reasons for killing are adequate.

This is called special pleading, so if Abraham had killed his son, it wont be regarded as murder?

Then if goodness is intrinsic to Gods nature, then you shouldn't be afraid to carry out the commands of God from the old testament, should you?, he is the same yesterday, today and forever right?

donnffd:


This is called special pleading, so if Abraham had killed his son, it wont be regarded as murder?

its not murder cuz God the one who created and gave him Isaac is giving the command, Abraham himself does not have the right to take isaac life as he never created nor can he restore it, but God does.

donnffd:


Then if goodness is intrinsic to Gods nature, then you shouldn't be afraid to carry out the commands of God from the old testament, should you?, he is the same yesterday, today and forever right?

No there should be not problem as long as the context is the same

MrMontella:

if that were to be true..
christians wont outnumber atheists in prisons
but reverse is the fact.
And secular societis wont fare better
reverse is the case
the world is even more peaceful as secularism increases..
the top ten peaceful countries are the least religious...
And to show for it,,the happiest countries are the least religious

if secularism is catastrophic
[url=jezebel.com/godless-parents-are-doing-a-better-job-1682844001]secular children wont fare better[/url]
but we see them doing so..

Dont mix things up,
secularism and atheism may seem similar but they are not the same, that a country is secular does not necessarily mean that it is atheistic, China for example is secular, yet religions like taoism, confucianism, buddhism are practiced there, needless to say, atheists are secular people, but secular people are not necessarily atheists.

In my earlier post, i quoted someone that suggested that morality should be interpreted according to our individual perception of it, which i pointed out to be disastrous. If you kill someone in any secular nation in the world today, you will surely be convicted for murder just the same way religious nations would do.
which means they are not totally without believes.

peacesamuel94:


Dont mix things up,
secularism and atheism may seem similar but they are not the same, that a country is secular does not necessarily mean that it is atheistic, China for example is secular, yet religions like taoism, confucianism, buddhism are practiced there, needless to say, atheists are secular people, but secular people are not necessarily atheists.

In my earlier post, i quoted someone that suggested that morality should be interpreted according to our individual perception of it, which i pointed out to be disastrous. If you kill someone in any secular nation in the world today, you will surely be convicted for murder just the same way religious nations would do.
which means they are not totally without believes.

no you said----

or when morality becomes
subjected to our individual intepretation of it,
The world will improve?........Thats why religion acts like some kind of
restraint, it helps to keep us in check. the fight
against religion is actually an indirect attempt
to annihilate mankind

Morality is never from religion..thats what you wanted to imply..
Whenever there's a society---Need for morality arises..
They are two sides of a coin..
If you're the only person on earth...there would be nothing like morality/moral laws...but once a social species come together...it arises..because of a common goal----survival
morality is not tied to religion..
The piraha people have no religion..yet they have moral laws...
So thats why the secular nations which subjected their laws to collective perception are not regressing..rather progressing..

---

Think of it this way, If all the rapists thieves,
paedophiles,killers,looters sadomasochist etc,
on earth were allowed to do what actually makes them happy

this is one misconception about the notion of morality too..
If they feel it makes them happy..they can do it on THEMSELVES..but when they extrapolate such behaviours to OTHER PEOPLE
it no longer becomes personal..but communal..
Cant break it further...
Even in nature,social species such as wolves and bees..have their own laws.
Bottomline; Society--Morality=survival.

donnffd:
This is the go to question for the theist who is arguing with the non-believer, it is often said, "if you dont believe in God, why don't you go about raping and killing people". it is a very childish question but i want to turn the tables around and pose the question to theists.

Why is murder wrong?

Let me reframe it like this;

Is murder wrong because it is just wrong or is it wrong because God says its wrong?

if the former is the case, then it means God is not needed to have morality, but if you say the latter is the case, then it means morality is arbitrary(and not as objective as theists makes it sound).

So which is it?

Well in my humble opinion, as long as there is a God, murder is not wrong(yes i said it), why?, you might ask!, its follows from this simple logic:

- Everything that happens is God's plan
- God's plan is ultimately good
- Killing someone is part of God's plan which in essence is ultimately good.

If killing someone would send the person to heaven to spend an eternity with God, then why is murder wrong?, and the killer could ultimately repent before dying so everybody wins!

On the otherhand, if there was no God, then murder would be the greatest evil because it would follow that since this is the only life we have, then ending it abruptly would be the greatest pain you can inflict on someone and even yourself because the rest of your single short life would be spent behind bars.

I can already hear rebuttals to the argument saying God specifically said it in the bible that one shall not kill, but God himself killed far more people than the devil did in the bible, so drowning everyone on earth can be regarded as being Godly.

Till date, this is the weakest post I've seen you make.

Wrong Premise!
Wrong Assumptions!
Wrong Conclusion!

I wish you could withdraw this.

You'll notice for some time I've deliberately moved out of atheist-theist discussions. I do not intend to start again but a vey simple analysis shows that your bias is bringing forth bad judgement.

shadeyinka:


Till date, this is the weakest post I've seen you make.

Wrong Premise!
Wrong Assumptions!
Wrong Conclusion!

I wish you could withdraw this.

You'll notice for some time I've deliberately moved out of atheist-theist discussions. I do not intend to start again but a vey simple analysis shows that your bias is bringing forth bad judgement.

You would be amazed the number of theists whose thinking capabilities are not set straight, the post was born from a frustrated thought process that erupted after a very funny and irritating theist asked me "if God doesnt exist, why dont you go about killing and raping people". *facepalm*

donnffd:


You would be amazed the number of theists whose thinking capabilities are not set straight, the post was born from a frustrated thought process that erupted after a very funny and irritating theist asked me "if God doesnt exist, why dont you go about killing and raping people". *facepalm*

I understand!
Later, I'll find time we can chat.

Stay Blessed my Friend!

Richirich713:


It doesn't matter who u serve, what matters is who is the true God and creator nd if he is commanding u to kill someone.

So the TRUE creator will send out contract killers? There's no point in looking for the true creator before you murder on his behalf, because the true creator will always end up being your own god.

felixomor1:


Ur freedom of speech ends where another person's own starts. And also where the law starts..
And that law is represented by the officer.
U can see the type of reasoning u r using. No wonder.

Be using google as ur Constitution there. Lol

Moreover the people u even captured seem to also be groaning like angry kids who were mocking the prophet and then complaining after they were punished.

Continue with ur google law and order.

What exactly are you saying? that insulting an officer of the law deserves capital punishment?

In that case any one that insults TB Joshua and other self acclaimed prophets should be shot.

wirinet:


What exactly are you saying? that insulting an officer of the law deserves capital punishment?

In that case any one that insults TB Joshua and other self acclaimed prophets should be shot.

Insjulting officers deserves punishment, yes!

Why are u even thinking in that direction?

Richirich713:


It doesn't matter who u serve, what matters is who is the true God and creator nd if he is commanding u to kill someone.

So if this "true God" good or not whoever he might be? if anything he does is good, then good has no real meaning to him because it would not hold to him. Or is it good because he orders it? in that morality is subjective and depends on ur God present state.

Richirich713:



I'm saying that goodness is intrinsic to God's being, his nature and character defines what is good, and his commands are a manifestation of his nature.

Then in that case good has no real meaning being attributed to him. If he says kill all the sons of mr ABC, then according to you it is good but according to objective morality it is bad. Can u now say that morality is purely objective?

What if God commanded me to kill my child? What if I was the father of Stalin or hitler?

Killing is not the same as murder, me killing in self defense is not evil or wrong becuz my reasons for killing are adequate.

What if he tells you to kill just to please him?