A88C:
first of all,you were unable to establish if you are muslim or not. i ask you to proof it if otherwise by stating the kalimotu shaadah. thereofore i consider you a blasphemer until you can srate the kalimotu shaadah with your name.

I don't need to say the shahada to proof I'm a Muslim, it doesn't change anything, must I say it before we can argue? Kindly go through my previous threads to confirm if I'm a Muslim or not.

if you are really folllwing the history backgrround i presented muhammed（saw）and his tribal men did not have access to great pbilosopher of that time becuse of them live in far greek which is as far from present day saudi arabia to china. so muhammed had no knowledge of whom you accused him of copying all the muslim as of that time.

In Islamic history the Prophet(SA) sent letters to kings, and Heraclius the Caesar of Byzantium a roman emperor was among. Do you know muslims believe Quran mentioned Alexander?

How then you said the Prophet (SA) never made any contact with any Greek?

during the time of the prophet it was of the period of poet and literature amd not science in the arabia world in general. science began to grow after the revelation of the holy quran when muslim were begining to question some sciencetifical claim of the holy quran.

Lol, where are claims for this?

put in mind the arabian penusular was a disjointed zone before and after the prophet. the penusular was amalgamated by one of the saiabah of the prophet name umar（saw）

I know, and don't use (SAW) for Umar(RA) it is only meant for Prophet Muhammad (SA)

tintingz:
That verse you mentioned is even unscientific, how does sun orbit the earth?

Again that verse does not boldly said, the earth is sphere/round.

first of all you were unable to enlighten me on the subject matter meaning you have no good umderstanding of what you are saying.

pls do you read the quran verse. and pls do you understand arabic which am sure you did not. go back to the quran source copy it into google translation and get what it mean ina rabic

tintingz:
I don't need to say the shahada to proof I'm a Muslim, it doesn't change anything, must I say it before we can argue? Kindly go through my previous threads to confirm if I'm a Muslim or not.


In Islamic history the Prophet(SA) sent letters to kings, and Heraclius the Caesar of Byzantium a roman emperor was among. Do you know muslims believe Quran mentioned Alexander?

How then you said the Prophet (SA) never made any contact with any Greek?

Lol, where are claims for this?

I know, and don't use (SAW) for Umar(RA) it is only meantyou s for Prophet Muhammad (SA)

you can not declare the shaadah then you are not a muslim by whatevet standard. in islam the most importsnt articule of faith is declaring the shsadah.

no denial about that, but the letters were meant for thr kings and not the philosopher and is there any record that proof the letter was reply by the philosopher.

the content of the lettet has always center around religious matter and not science and asrtronomy. the point here still remain valid no establish record of muhammed and his tribal men meet any greek scholars or exchange letters.

my claim was gotten from rhe historical record of the arabians. even quran gave a challenge to whomever could produce anything similar to it or better than it which was the reason some noble thinker（saw） accepted islam. as at that time the arabian,were at the peak of poet and literature. quran poetic style was very outstanding anf so full of eloquent character.

this last page further compound your islamic history is not accurate. all prophet ranging from muhammed ,moses ,abtaham ,jesus can be accord with saw. even the saabah can also benefit. all this atre gotten from authentic hadith nabiyu. you have not answer my Q

A88C:
first of all,you were unable to establish if you are muslim or not. i ask you to proof it if otherwise by stating the kalimotu shaadah. thereofore i consider you a blasphemer until you can srate the kalimotu shaadah with your name.

You keep saying this, will it change anything?

You are the first Muslim I've argued with that want me to say the shahada to know if I'm a Muslim.

Lā ʾilāha ʾillā-llāh, Muhammadur-rasūlu-llāh

Can we now move on?

if you are really folllwing the history backgrround i presented muhammed（saw）and his tribal men did not have access to great pbilosopher of that time becuse of them live in far greek which is as far from present day saudi arabia to china. so muhammed had no knowledge of whom you accused him of copying all the muslim as of that time.

I've answered this.

during the time of the prophet it was of the period of poet and literature amd not science in the arabia world in general. science began to grow after the revelation of the holy quran when muslim were begining to question some sciencetifical claim of the holy quran.

put in mind the arabian penusular was a disjointed zone before and after the prophet. the penusular was amalgamated by one of the saiabah of the prophet name umar（saw）it was through him that help made arabian a kingdom of diffrent tribe.

I've replied this.

the claim that the name you mention existed before the prophet might be true but he dsoes not have anything to do with the claim of the earth is sphere or those he made mention of the fact in his book. you know that is not true.

Lol, did you read the link I provided?

All the philosophers I listed discovered the earth to be sphere, kindly read the link.

The Greek philosophers discovered the earth to be sphere in shape through observation and experiment, they didn't associated it with any divine thing, even if they said it was divine it means their gods informed them earlier before Islam came, it doesn't matter if the early Arabs knew or not, the main thing is there were people that knew the earth was spherical even before Islam came.

islam encourage us to seek for knowledge even from third source so far it is accepted by the sunnnah and sharriah. i will not be suprised if muslim were reading his book. but not until when the arabia kingdom got united.and the quran as already made the claim then not anyhuman. so this fact debunk your aim.

Where does the Quran said the earth is spherical?

the question i raised thereof has not yet be answer. which part of the quran verses do the scholars agreed upon that quran state otherwise. who claim the fact before the quran

the Quran said "spread out" which created an argument if the earth was flat or round among early Muslim scholars I've quoted the two argument up there, go back and read it sir.

You haven't provide single evidence from our argument so far.

A88C:
first of all you were unable to enlighten me on the subject matter meaning you have no good umderstanding of what you are saying.

pls do you read the quran verse. and pls do you understand arabic which am sure you did not. go back to the quran source copy it into google translation and get what it mean ina rabic

Here is the Quran verse:

And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.(Quran 21:33)

Those the sun rotate in orbit? I'm confused here.

A88C:
i do not read from wikipedia. wikipedia is a souce anybody can posr and copy from. i read from well aproove authorify not wiki.

Wikipedia articles, report are always with reference and authorized sources, it is part of their rules. There is no different in quoting from other sites and Wikipedia, I prefer Wikipedia because it is a compilation of different report from different sources.

I do made research and no claim from science encylocopedia that aristotle
that he was credited with the record of having the record of spherical earth. go to googl book search the name of aristiotle and his record. extract any claim there and post it here with the name oc the book not wiki.

You must be a joker, do you study philosophy is school? Which Google are you using?

Plato was the teacher of Aristotle and they both discovered the spherical earth shape

Around 350 BC, the great Aristotle declared that the Earth was a sphere (based on observations he made about which constellations you could see in the sky as you travelled further and further away from the equator) and during the next hundred years or so, Aristarchus and Eratosthenes actually measured the size of the Earth!
https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question54.html

Another report:

Aristotle (about 340 BC), two centuries later, supported the idea of a spherical Earth, Moon and planets because:

- the sphere is a perfect solid and the heavens are a region of perfection

- the Earth's component pieces, falling naturally towards the centre, would press into a round form

- in an eclipse of the Moon, the Earth's shadow is always circular: a flat disc would cast an oval shadow

- even in short travels northwards the Pole Star is higher in the sky.
http://practicalphysics.org/greek-evidence-earths-shape-and-spin.html

Oga www.google.com is the link if your Google is a different one

aristotle existed before the prophet.but the quarishi tribe did not have record of him meaning the prophet has no connection with hum also.

You didn't said this in your OP write up.

tintingz:

Here is the Quran verse:

And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.(Quran 21:33)

Those the sun rotate in orbit? I'm confused here.

i have quoted you in regards to this current post. go to your profile to check where i have quoted you. now you have establish you are a muslim 。my perspective to you now will change。 salam alaikun. what is your aim in this topic？ you want to contribute to it then you have to be an authority in islam jurispudence。 and again my brother pls why do you think those who argue on the concept that quran said the earth is sphericsl is wrong？ is it base on the two argument you provided.？

i have able to establish to you that the prophet do not contact any greek philosophy. he only send letters to the kings and it was simply base on religious concept and nothing more.

the verses said and all of them are floating in faraka. what do you understand by faraka？ it is an arabic languge. let me give you an arabic statement. ta fa la ka. you know what it mean？ it means the girl best is round. there may be other english meaning to falaka but the most accepted is round. you may post in diffrent meaning？ am ready to learn.

A88C:
you can not declare the shaadah then you are not a muslim by whatevet standard. in islam the most importsnt articule of faith is declaring the shsadah.

no denial about that, but the letters were meant for thr kings and not the philosopher and is there any record that proof the letter was reply by the philosopher.

Shifting argument, all what you said was Prophet Muhammad (SA) never made contact with the Greeks and I showed you he did.

the content of the lettet has always center around religious matter and not science and asrtronomy. the point here still remain valid no establish record of muhammed and his tribal men meet any greek scholars or exchange letters.

my claim was gotten from rhe historical record of the arabians. even quran gave a challenge to whomever could produce anything similar to it or better than it which was the reason some noble thinker（saw） accepted islam. as at that time the arabian,were at the peak of poet and literature. quran poetic style was very outstanding anf so full of eloquent character.

The Quran can be rewrite, there is nothing special about it. You can go through this thread:

>>> https://www.nairaland.com/3678762/why-alis-compilation-quran-rejected

this last page further compound your islamic history is not accurate. all prophet ranging from muhammed ,moses ,abtaham ,jesus can be accord with saw. even the saabah can also benefit. all this atre gotten from authentic hadith nabiyu. you have not answer my Q

"Sallalahu alay wasalaam" is the salawat Allah and his angels send upon Muhammad (SA) alone, you can only use "Alay wasalam" for other prophets (AS).

In fact I've argued why is (SAW) used only for Muhammad, why the distinction between the prophets. Here is what my fellow Muslims said in this thread, go through the thread.

>>> https://www.nairaland.com/3414533/why-s.a.w-used-muhammad-a.s

tintingz:
Shifting argument, all what you said was Prophet Muhammad (SA) never made contact with the Greeks and I showed you he did.

The Quran can be rewrite, there is nothing special about it. You can go through this thread:

>>> https://www.nairaland.com/3678762/why-alis-compilation-quran-rejected

"Sallalahu alay wasalaam" is the salawat Allah and his angels send upon Muhammad (SA) alone, you can only use "Alay wasalam" for other prophets (AS).

In fact I've argued why is (SAW) used only for Muhammad, why the distinction between the prophets. Here is what my fellow Muslims said in this thread, go through the thread.

>>> https://www.nairaland.com/3414533/why-s.a.w-used-muhammad-a.s

my dear brother in islam the argument is not shifted. go back to my post and quote me verbally. . i said muhammed and his tribal men never meet or contact any greek philosopher unless you can quote otherwise.

why i do not belief or read from wiki. it is simply because it is an open source and most of the references there are not from establish authority..

about the claim of the aristotle. i am making a present reaarch on it. whatever the outcome i will let you know.

the quran can be re- write you ？ that is not the content of the argument. quran said they should provide any similar or better than it is. it is not paraphrasing the quran. it is about giving something of solid and eloquent information like alquran. i belive with you there are more than one compilation of quran and which is one to accept or reject.

but that those not mean the people of qurashi as that time can provide similar book in comparism to quran. and that is the important of the challenge.

i base my argument on the fact of hadith that says at the mention of the name the waliyu. proclaim blessing upon on them.

A88C:
i have quoted you in regards to this current post. go to your profile to check where i have quoted you. now you have establish you are a muslim 。my perspective to you now will change。 salam alaikun. what is your aim in this topic？ you want to contribute to it then you have to be an authority in islam jurispudence。 and again my brother pls why do you think those who argue on the concept that quran said the earth is sphericsl is wrong？ is it base on the two argument you provided.？

All I'm saying is the Quran is not a scientific book, many Muslim agreed it is not a scientific book.

The reason the early Muslims argued about the earth shape was because the Quran said "spread out".

i have able to establish to you that the prophet do not contact any greek philosophy. he only send letters to the kings and it was simply base on religious concept and nothing more.

If letters can reach Greek, then case close.

the verses said and all of them are floating in faraka. what do you understand by faraka？ it is an arabic languge. let me give you an arabic statement. ta fa la ka. you know what it mean？ it means the girl best is round. there may be other english meaning to falaka but the most accepted is round. you may post in diffrent meaning？ am ready to learn.

if it means round, does the sun move round the earth? Anything can move around a box, triangle etc. Where does the Quran said the earth is round in shape?

A88C:
my dear brother in islam the argument is not shifted. go back to my post and quote me verbally. . i said muhammed and his tribal men never meet or contact any greek philosopher unless you can quote otherwise.

As far they contact a roman emperor, case close. The Greeks already knew the earth is round.

why i do not belief or read from wiki. it is simply because it is an open source and most of the references there are not from establish authority..

Wikipedia has rules, here is the rules on reference and source.

All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy, citing reliable, authoritative sources, especially when the topic is controversial or is on living persons. Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars

You must provide authorized sources and references on Wikipedia, they are monitoring the site.

about the claim of the aristotle. i am making a present reaarch on it. whatever the outcome i will let you know.

Lol, I will be waiting.

the quran can be re- write you ？ that is not the content of the argument. quran said they should provide any similar or better than it is. it is not paraphrasing the quran. it is about giving something of solid and eloquent information like alquran. i belive with you there are more than one compilation of quran and which is one to accept or reject.

but that those not mean the people of qurashi as that time can provide similar book in comparism to quran. and that is the important of the challenge.

Tell me, why should someone write similar story of Harry porter after it has been published?

I base my argument on the fact of hadith that says at the mention of the name the waliyu. proclaim blessing upon on them.

Which hadith? do you take hadith higher than the Quran?

tintingz:
As far they contact a roman emperor, case close. The Greeks already knew the earth is round.

Wikipedia has rules, here is the rules on reference and source.

All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy, citing reliable, authoritative sources, especially when the topic is controversial or is on living persons. Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars

You must provide authorized sources and references on Wikipedia, they are monitoring the site.

Lol, I will be waiting.

Tell me, why should someone write similar story of Harry porter after it has been published?

Which hadith? do you take hadith higher than the Quran?

as far you can not establish the letter contain anyything apart from religious concept. if not the point still remain valid

yes i am currently making research on it and i will get back to you later on the subject matter of aristotle.

quran is not s science book and i have never say fhat, it is a book of signs meaning a benchmark for science.

with mutilple of rules guiding wikipedia. it will stiill request you to update anytime you open a link. therefore second or third party can update on an information that is not originally belong to the person who crrated it. at times wiki will even ask you to provide reference for a subject matter. in the academy field wiki references is not allowed.

A88C:

first of all, my aim of this topic is to capture the mind of the educated Muslim who think their religion is outdated and illogical and therefore can not be true especially in the age of science and technology.

this writing also aim to address the perspective of non Muslim toward Islam as a primitive religion and therefore should be cast away in the era of 21 century

In mathematics Theory of Probability simply mean If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Quran, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Quraan was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Quran rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

Nowhere does the Quran vouch for a spherical earth. It does refer to the shape of the earth as "daha" in one verse. Translators deceitfully and cunningly render it "egg shaped" claiming it describes an ostrich's egg when it in fact refers to the flattening or clearing of the soil by the ostrich to lay its eggs. Earlier contemporary works did better.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Quran rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Kindly quote the verse attesting to this.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The primordial soup hypothesis is still subject to scrutiny as experiments carried out by scientists prove otherwise. Give them time before inference could be drawn.

The Quraan speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Quraan is Divine

please no insult. let us learn together. contribute if you think you have something to say that has not been included or wish to refute it logically.

mathematical approach will be highly welcome for the refuters

Hundred of things like the sun floating in an orbit or hills providing protection from tectonic shifts? smh..

A88C:
as far you can not establish the letter contain anyything apart from religious concept. if not the point still remain valid

yes i am currently making research on it and i will get back to you later on the subject matter of aristotle.

quran is not s science book and i have never say fhat, it is a book of signs meaning a benchmark for science.

with mutilple of rules guiding wikipedia. it will stiill request you to update anytime you open a link. therefore second or third party can update on an information that is not originally belong to the person who crrated it. at times wiki will even ask you to provide reference for a subject matter. in the academy field wiki references is not allowed.

How can Quran be benchmark for science when early philosophers, scholars have discovered many things before Islam came?

Like have said Wikipedia has rules, they are monitoring the site, you cant just post anything without adding references. So again what's the different between Wikipedia and every other site?

[quote author=tintingz post=55443399]How can Quran be benchmark for science when early philosophers, scholars have discovered many things before Islam came?

Like have said Wikipedia has rules, they are monitoring the site, you cant just post anything without adding references. So again what's the different between Wikipedia and every other site?[/quo


i still dont mmmmm get youu. who are you？ tellll me . the question i ask has not been answer？why do you think the shclars who argue quran evidence of spherical earth is wrong？ what do you want to achieved in debunking the evidence？many claim by the quran first exist before the science claim. you only argue on the sphercal earth？ your preposition of aristotle is still in question which i doubt.


wikipedia rules are no important. i can as well post and edit the wiki source you shared with me now. the concept about other website is simply becuse it is,not a open source like wiki where everyone can post and editt. no good academic citadel of learning will accept wiki references.


i never said i valued hadith over quran. two rules were given to the muslim quran and hadith. quran is divine hadith is just a say of the prophet. unless you can proof otherwise from quran that saw is only meant for prophet therefore hadith is wrong

A88C:
i still dont mmmmm get youu. who are you？ tellll me . the question i ask has not been answer？why do you think the shclars who argue quran evidence of spherical earth is wrong？ what do you want to achieved in debunking the evidence？many claim by the quran first exist before the science claim. you only argue on the sphercal earth？ your preposition of aristotle is still in question which i doubt.


wikipedia rules are no important. i can as well posted to the you chared with me now. the concept about other website is simply becuse it is,not a open source like wiki where everyone can post and comment. no good academic citadel of learning will accept wiki references.


i never said i valued hadith over quran. two rules were given to the muslim quran and hadith. quran is divine hadith is just a say of the prophet. unless you can proof otherwise from quran that saw is only meant for prophet therefore hadith is wrong

I'm tired repeating myself, I've provided enough evidence while you haven't provide none.

somebody here has his head permanently stuck in his ass/. he debates only to win. while not making sense.

proudafrogal:
somebody here has his head permanently stuck in his ass/. he debates only to win. while not making sense.

The rodent has deleted his account in shame after his lies were exposed by a fellow Muslim.