Kashmiri Shia Muslims flagellating themselves during a Moharram procession in Srinagar January 27, 2007. Muslims all over the world mourn the slaying of Imam Hussein, grandson of Prophet Muhammad, during the first ten days of the Islamic month of Moharram. Imam Hussein was killed by his political rivals along with 72 companions in Iraq some 1,300 years ago. REUTERS/Fayaz Kabli (INDIAN-ADMINISTERED KASHMIR)

more

more!!!

Horrible and gory sight

So much for the religion of peace

What da. . ?


mrpataki, I'm pretty sure Muhammad never asked them to mourn the death of anyone this way, so I believe this has got little or nothing to do with their religion.  Some peeps are just fanatically barbaric.

this is pure Baal worship simple and short Remember Elijah( My God That Answereth By Fire)

Offerings to a blood thirsty demon errorneously labelled a "god"!

what actually came to my mind when i saw the pictures:

do unto others as you would want them to do unto you?

or perhaps the other way around.

Reminds me of Simon in the Da Vinci Code. And I want to believe there are Christians like him in real life too. You see, there are peeps that are just so fanatical about this religion thingy, so this has got nothing to do with Islam. Afterall, we've not seen or heard of a single muslim here in Nigeria, or even other parts of the world, apart from these group of people mourning this way.

Personally, I wouldn't attribute this 'self-inhumane' acts to their religion at all.

@ goodguy,

goodguy:

mrpataki, I'm pretty sure Muhammad never asked them to mourn the death of anyone this way, so I believe this has got little or nothing to do with their religion. Some peeps are just fanatically barbaric.

goodguy:

Reminds me of Simon in the Da Vinci Code. And I want to believe there are Christians like him in real life too. You see, there are peeps that are just so fanatical about this religion thingy, so this has got nothing to do with Islam. Afterall, we've not seen or heard of a single muslim here in Nigeria, or even other parts of the world, apart from these group of people mourning this way.

Personally, I wouldn't attribute this 'self-inhumane' acts to their religion at all.

I have noticed some of your inputs at times, and well we are all entitled to our opinions. I guess in your locality, you are seen as a pundit, but on the "www", its not like that!
Sorry if you are going to talk, at least add some sound reasoning to your points!
To what do we attribute this self-inhumane act here that we see here

Do you know that, doing such act they are truly showing their love for their religion?

Guess you actually may not know any better.

mrpataki:

@ goodguy,
I have noticed some of your inputs at times, and well we are all entitled to our opinions.

Glad you acknowledge that.

mrpataki:

I guess in your locality, you are seen as a pundit, but on the "www", its not like that!

Keep guessing brother.

mrpataki:

Sorry if you are going to talk, at least add some sound reasoning to your points!

You know, I have also been noticing some of your inputs; and it does appear to me that you really do have a penchant for brawls, especially when it's got something to do with Islam.  I'm pretty sure if I had come here with some inflammatory comments about Islam, I'd have made perfect sense to you and of course, had your brotherly pat on my back.  Thanks for the insult by the way, my "good Christian" brother.

mrpataki:

To what do we attribute this self-inhumane act here that we see here

Good question. 

First and foremost, read the opening line carefully.  You'll see that it only talks about a certain group of Muslims, from God-knows-where, flagellating themselves.  And as I pointed out earlier, we have not heard of anything similar from other Muslims from other parts of the world.  Therefore, I believe common sense should be able to tell us that these certain group of Muslims are the ones taking things too far.  If it was something Muslims all over whole world engaged in, your assertions could have been right.  It's just like saying, because a certain group of Christians in a particular part of the world also flagellate themselves because of the crucifixion of Christ (as in the case of Simon in the Da Vinci Code), then it definitely should be attributed to Christianity.  Or that because trini_girl, as an ardent Christian, believes Premarital sex is not fornication, then it is a generally accepted notion in the Christendom;  - which should not be so.  Get my drift?

mrpataki:

Do you know that, doing such act they are truly showing their love for their religion?

It apparently has nothing to do with their religion, because:

1.  They are not flagellating themselves for God, or any other religious reasons (going by the input of the thread starter).
2.  They are only expressing their sorrow for the death of the grandson of their prophet, which I am 99.9% sure Muhammad would never have asked them to do this way.  You could have been right if you had said they were showing their love for Muhammad's grandson.  That's another thing on its own.
3. This self-harming act is being carried out by a particular group of Muslims, and not the whole Islamic believers all over the world, so it is irrational to conclude that it is a religious or Islamic act.

However, if you honestly believe it has anything to do with their religion, and not just spitting out words prejudicially, can you kindly show me a quote from the Quran, Hadith, or whatever books Muslims read that enjoins that Muslims should mourn deaths this way?  If you can and will show me, then I'll admit openly how wrong I am and accept the corrections subsequently.  Otherwise, I will just take this as another futile attempt to ridicule another's religion for a totally baseless reason.

mrpataki:

Guess you actually may not know any better.

You could enlighten me, you know?  Jesus Christ would never hesitate. 

Once again, thanks for insulting me for my refusal to join the bandwagon.  God bless.

I couldn't have elaborated better.

@ goodguy,
Sometimes we have to disagree to agree. Sorry if you feel I insulted you. I dont belong to any bandwagon of reasoning here! Should I take that input of yours as an Insult too

Now you have made some statements here that I will take you up on.

(Qur’an, Al-Imran 4:104)
Let there arise out of you a group of people inviting to all that is good (Islam), enjoining Al-Ma’ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam calls for) and forbidding Al-Munkar (polytheism and disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden). And it is they who are the successful.

Now lets try to reason this thing out logically. Those peeps you see in the pictures above flagellating themselves are doing it for their love for Saddam, believed to be a grandson of Muhammad, who is a muslim, and to them it is good!

The above verse clearly states that a group of people are invited into doing good, just as they believe Suicide bombings is also doing good, killing the infidels is also doing good, slight beating of their wives is also doing good, and quite a whole lot more of such attrocities.

They are made to believe that in such "doing good" they are seen and regarded as the successful ones. Hope you get my angle of reasoning here.

As to my proclivity for brawls on Islam, that is your own better judgment, and am not here to make your day or belong to your bandwagon of reasoning. Hope you dont read that as an insult too

On a lighter note, your name propels a better side of you Segun right?

shittes are the second largest Islamic sect.
Most Muslims even in Naija are sunnis.
The sunnis and shittes say they believe in the same 5 pillars of Islam and on this forum,the Muslims tell us they are bonafide Muslims but they have some differences.

first,Sunnis and shittes hate each other with a passion.
Most of the killings in Iraq and Iran are them two against each other.
The sunnis have even killed shittes at hajj in mecca.
They blow up each others mosque and suicide bomb each other,each sect wanting to gain control.

@ goodguy,

babyosisi:

Most of the killings in Iraq and Iran are them two against each other.
The sunnis have even killed shittes at hajj in mecca.
They blow up each others mosque and suicide bomb each other,each sect wanting to gain control.

To what do we attribute this bizzare act of theirs Does Muhammad incite such from the Al'coran?

mrpataki:

(Qur’an, Al-Imran 4:104)
Let there arise out of you a group of people inviting to all that is good (Islam), enjoining Al-Ma’ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam calls for) and forbidding Al-Munkar (polytheism and disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden). And it is they who are the successful.

Perhaps, if you could provide a link to the full chapter, we may reason it out from there.  What I've read here does not seem to connect to the issue at hand in any way.

mrpataki:

Now lets try to reason this thing out logically. Those peeps you see in the pictures above flagellating themselves are doing it for their love for Saddam, believed to be a grandson of Muhammad, who is a muslim, and to them it is good!

Imam Hussain is not Saddam Hussein.  Read the first post of the thread starter again, and you'll see that Imam Hussain was the grandson of Prophet Muhammad, who was killed some 1300 years ago.  You can do a google search on him for more info.

mrpataki:

The above verse clearly states that a group of people are invited into doing good, just as they believe Suicide bombings is also doing good, killing the infidels is also doing good, slight beating of their wives is also doing good, and quite a whole lot more of such attrocities.

They are made to believe that in such "doing good" they are seen and regarded as the successful ones. Hope you get my angle of reasoning here.

I don't think this is a correct interpretation of that verse.  Maybe if I read the whole chapter, I'll understand better, but for now, it seems to me that you've taken that verse completely out of context.

However, I will like to say this - perhaps, I was wrong.  Perhaps, it really has something to do with their religion.  But I still believe and maintain that I was not wrong by saying that it should not be conclusively attached to Islam.  It really does not appear Islamic to me.  These group of people flagellating themselves are the Shiites.  They are obviously so fanatical about their religion, that they would do virtually everything recorded in the Quran.  They say it's "Sunnah".

A thorough research has revealed to me that these Shiites actually have Quranic verses that support these self-harming acts.  But the same article reveals that there is another sect of Muslims that do not support this at all -- which brings us back to my first point, and that is, this act should not be outrightly attached to Islam, just because of the fanaticism of a particular sect.  (The article: http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/azadari/en/chap9.php)

It is also important to note that in the Bible, there are verses that seem to support similar self-harming acts also.  And supposing there are Christians that also flagellate themselves for any reasons best known to them, they can actually take these verses out of context just to justify their acts.  The verses include Isaiah 22:12, Isaiah 32:11, Jeremiah 49:3 and Luke 23:48.

But one very important thing to note here is that Muhammad never commanded it.  The Shiites are only doing this due to their love for Imam Hussain, and are simply using verses in the Quran to justify those acts.  Do not forget that we also find so many similar instances among the Christians too.  They do certain things and use Bible verses to justify their acts.

Nonetheless, my point is, and still remains that: "The fanaticism of a particular sect of a group should not be a basis for the castigation of the whole body to which that sect belongs.  That is entirely the problem of that sect, and theirs alone.  However, if the whole body agrees on, and engages in the same acts, then it is clearly a common pratice of that body, and any approbation or reproval of such acts shall not be faulted in any way."

That is goodguy's theory of . . . (I'll fill it in later ).

mrpataki:

On a lighter note, your name propels a better side of you Segun right?

Better side?  What do you mean?  And yeah, it's Segun .

@ goodguy,
Sorry but my point still stands. Hope you aint annoyed any longer

goodguy:

It is also important to note that in the Bible, there are verses that seem to support similar self-harming acts also.  And supposing there are Christians that also flagellate themselves for any reasons best known to them, they can actually take these verses out of context just to justify their acts.  The verses include Isaiah 22:12, Isaiah 32:11, Jeremiah 49:3 and Luke 23:48.

Where are these verses in the bible that support self harm in the bible? Maybe i'm reading mine upside down!

mrpataki:

@ goodguy,
Sorry but my point still stands. Hope you aint annoyed any longer

I was never angry in the first place.  I just saw no reason for the stylish insult.


And. .  your point should still not stand.  Read my post again with an open mind, and you'll see where I'm coming from.  Perhaps, if you have any problems with the Islam talk (I know you detest Islam), you could substitute all areas where Islam is mentioned with Hinduism or Buddhism.  My own be say make una try understand wetin I dey tell you.

davidylan:

Where are these verses in the bible that support self harm in the bible? Maybe i'm reading mine upside down!

That's why I was careful with my use of words there.  This is what I said: "there are verses that seem to support similar self-harming acts also", and I later went on to say:  "they can actually take these verses out of context just to justify their acts".  Note the emboldened words.  As for the Bible verses, they're in the same post you quoted.

In NO WAY do the verses you mentioned advocate or "seem" to advocate self harm!

Isaiah 22: 12And in that day did the Lord GOD of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth:

Isaiah 32: 11Tremble, ye women that are at ease; be troubled, ye careless ones: strip you, and make you bare, and gird sackcloth upon your loins.

Jer 49: 3Howl, O Heshbon, for Ai is spoiled: cry, ye daughters of Rabbah, gird you with sackcloth; lament, and run to and fro by the hedges; for their king shall go into captivity, and his priests and his princes together.

Luke 23: 48And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.

The use of sackcloth and ashes has long been an old testament symbol of humility and repentance! It in no way advocates that you should cut yoursef with swords and beat yourself up with rods!

Smiting of breasts in Luke 23 is used figuratively to imply a feeling of remorse!

The one place in the bible where self flagellation is specifically mentioned is on the mount of Carmel where the prophets of baal cut themselves with knives!

We're saying the same thing here.  I know that these verses do not support self-harm.  Easy with the exclamation marks, okay?   Notwithstanding, they still depict that people did something abnormal to themselves to express their remorse for whatever reasons best known to them.

Just like in the Quran also, you will never find verses like, "Thou shalt smite thyselves with rods, and cut thysleves with swords".  Rather, what you'll see are verses like:

"Hadhrath Adam was so distressed that he smashed his hands onto his knees and the skin from his hands caused gashes from which bone could be seen." 

"When Ayesha was defeated and Ali saw the corpses on the ground he began to beat his thighs"

"When Hadhrath Omar heard of Nu'man ibn Muqrin's death he beat his head and screamed, "O what a pity that Nu'man died".

. . . and so on.

So you see, these verses are not enjoining Muslims to engage in self-harm, but are only parts of narrations of some stories.  Some Muslim fanatics now see these and decide to do the same to express their sorrow or remorse, and say, afterall, we've read about some people doing it in the Quran.

Hope you get my point.

Quran 47: 4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads….

Quran 2: 191 And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.


They are just practicing

Backslider:

Quran 47: 4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads….

Quran 2: 191 And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.


They are just practicing

More like "do unto others more, than what you can do unto yourself"!

Hmmm. .  a nice attempt there to make the Muslims appear guilty of war crimes.  But isn't God Himself, a man of war?

goodguy:

Hmmm. . a nice attempt there to make the Muslims appear guilty of war crimes. But isn't God Himself, a man of war?

Well, following on your link (a man of war. . . or, Holy Wars In The Bible ), it is interesting how dramatic things are shaping up.

Indeed.

Alfa goodguy,
I can see that you really need sit down and learn.

the lebanese here always donate blodd on this day .when they are commemorating it.

ishaahamed:

the lebanese here always donate blodd on this day .when they are commemorating it.

I don't know how true that is; but I've often heard it said in the past.

See Nigerians need to be more like these arabs, when abacha died we didn't even mourn, I mean after all he did for his nation, after all the stability(Abacha and Saddam are matyrs for their inexistent achievements) nah wah oh

mrpataki:

Alfa goodguy,

Suddenly, I've become an Alfa. How interesting! If speaking the truth is what qualifies me to be an Alfa, perhaps, only Alfas will see the kingdom of God!

mrpataki:

I can see that you really need sit down and learn.

I'm sitting already. Come and educate me, the Erudite one!