Guys, I just need some clarification on this.

We've read of wars supported by God in the Bible and how God helped his people conquer the unbelievers.  Even God is described as a Man of war in the Bible (Exodus 15:3).  Why then are we Christians so quick to castigate the Muslims based on some Quranic verses that narrate how Holy wars were fought in the times of Muhammad?

Is there something I'm missing?   Heck! I know Jesus came and abolished such acts of war.  He came to preach and establish peace among mankind, and even admonished us to turn the other cheek when wronged.

But this still doesn't change the fact that God supported wars against unbelievers (sure, they classify as unbelievers) - and not forgetting that He's a God that changeth not, the same Yesterday, Today and Forever.  So why then do we constantly use this to attack Muslims when we want to "prove" how "wrong" their religion is?  Or is it because there's no kind of "New Testament" in their Quran that admonishes Muslims not to be revengeful?

Please people, explain things to me , because I'm really sick and tired of seeing us attack each other's religion, trying to prove that one is better than the other.  The fact that we believe in the same God is enough for me to believe that both religions are right, but only see certain things about God differently.  At least, both religions agree and accept that God created Heaven and Earth.

This same issue is what makes Christians call Allah all sorts of names, simply because of His support for war as recorded in the Quran, forgetting that this Allah is the same God we serve, but is being seen differently in some areas by the Muslims.

So, does anyone here care to explain what the matter is, to me?

@goodguy,

goodguy:

I know Jesus came and abolished such acts of war. He came to preach and establish peace among mankind, and even admonished us to turn the other cheek when wronged.

What really is your motive? I'm just curious.

To bring an end to unnecessary disputes between Christians and Muslims.  But honestly, I need someone to clarify these things to me.  I'm really willing to learn and probably have my views changed.

Talk of answering a question:
That is a good question and i will like to know the answer too.
There are really many places in OT were God commanded to kill everything even the animals.
Some say Jesus came to teach a new way of life.
But many people still like to quote the OT to prove a point.
And according to ot unfaithfull women should be stoned to death.

@goodguy & mamaput,

I asked that question out of curiosity, and also out of an inquisitiveness to learn about my faith as a Christian. That is why I referenced the line quoted in advance, on the recognition that we can have a good start that Jesus came in peace:

goodguy:

I know Jesus came and abolished such acts of war.  He came to preach and establish peace among mankind, and even admonished us to turn the other cheek when wronged.

It is quite interesting that your quest about "Holy Wars In The Bible" was aimed at bringing. . .

goodguy:

. . .an end to unnecessary disputes between Christians and Muslims. .

Perhaps something is awry in the stated motive which does not reflect the quest for answers in the stated query. I sue for peace as a believer in Jesus Christ; and if my defence of the Old Testement does not help anyone, it still does not portray Jesus Christ as violent.

The question that is central in my mind to all this is: why did Muhammad hate Christians and Jews - what is our crime??

bari_kade:


The question that is central in my mind to all this is: why did Muhammad hate Christians and Jews - what is our crime??

you are infidels . refusing to accept Allah and Muhammad as his messenger

mukina2:

you are infidels . refusing to accept Allah and Muhammad as his messenger

Okay, at least, that is just one among several others. Thanks.



Now, @goodguy, does this help your enquiry and your stated aim to . . .

goodguy:

. . . bring an end to unnecessary disputes between Christians and Muslims.  But honestly, I need someone to clarify these things to me.  I'm really willing to learn and probably have my views changed.

??

bari_kade:

It is quite interesting that your quest about "Holy Wars In The Bible" was aimed at bringing. . .

Perhaps something is awry in the stated motive which does not reflect the quest for answers in the stated query. I sue for peace as a believer in Jesus Christ; and if my defence of the Old Testement does not help anyone, it still does not portray Jesus Christ as violent.

My quest is not about "Holy Wars In The Bible" as you've stated. My quest, rather, is to find out why Christians usually base their attacks against Muslims and "their Allah" on the wars they faught against unbelievers, when clearly, the very God we serve also backed up his people in times of war, against the unbelievers of those times. Hence, my desire for a compromise between the two religions since the argument holds no water.

@goodguy,

1.

goodguy:

My quest is not about "Holy Wars In The Bible" as you've stated.

2.

goodguy:

Guys, I just need some clarification on this.

. . . clarification on what - the topic, or something else?

So, I take it that if your quest is not about "Holy Wars In The Bible", your topic is misleading?

Besides, there are other issues that are clearly fundamental to the supposed quest you've now stated about:

goodguy:

My quest, rather, is to find out why Christians usually base their attacks against Muslims and "their Allah" on the wars they faught against unbelievers,

Even then, goodguy, it appears that you really don't have a firm grasp on the gist of the so-called quest you postulate. Wars and violence in Islam not withstanding, the basic question still remains: what crime did Christians and Jews commit for Muhammad to have hated them so much?

If God wants to brutally wipe out helpless women, slaves and babies, why not? God has every right to be wicked!!

@Seun,

Seun:

If God wants to brutally wipe out innocent women, slaves and babies, why not? God has every right to be wicked!!

You've rightly captured Islam in a nutshell, I suppose.

Question still remains: what crime did Christians and Jews commit for Muhammad to have hated them so much?

mukina2:

you are infidels . refusing to accept Allah and Muhammad as his messenger

So christians are infidels?? i never knew. i thought it was idol worshippers and pagans that are referred to as infidels, i mean those who do not believe in GOD?? Was Muhammad not friends to Christians and Jews during his time?? Did he not believe he was serving the same GOD with christians and Jews?? Did Muhammad not believe in Jesus Christ and other prophets mentioned in the Bible and Qu'ran?? There will always be conflict in this wide world, until muslims and christians see thmselves as worshippers of the same GOD. Mukina2, please what is your definition for infidel??

bari_kade:

@goodguy,

2,  . . clarification on what - the topic, or something else?

Not the topic. .  but the note expounding the topic itself.

bari_kade:

So, I take it that if your quest is not about "Holy Wars In The Bible", your topic is misleading?

Yeah, sorry about that.  I wanted to modify it last night, but NEPA messed up.  I hope the new title is better now?

bari_kade:

what crime did Christians and Jews commit for Muhammad to have hated them so much?

I with Ishmael on this.  Is there a quote in the Quran that indicates that Muhammad hated Christians and Jews?  I think we really do need a clear explanation on who Muhammad referred to as "Infidels".

And I believe mukina2's response is plain sentimental.

(well u are not totally wrong)

ishmael:

So christians are infidels?? i never knew. i thought it was idol worshippers and pagans that are referred to as infidels, i mean those who do not believe in GOD?? Was Muhammad not friends to Christians and Jews during his time?? Did he not believe he was serving the same GOD with christians and Jews?? Did Muhammad not believe in Jesus Christ and other prophets mentioned in the Bible and Qu'ran?? There will always be conflict in this wide world, until muslims and christians see thmselves as worshippers of the same GOD. Mukina2, please what is your definition for infidel??

You forgot to ask her who are the people of the book , her holy bookreferes her to

@goodguy,

It doesn't seem that you had an amicable motive for this topic ab initio. First it was something about the topic; then it was not the topic; and now, because the topic itself was misleading, it has become "the note expounding the topic itself". The chord that resonates in your exercise becomes all the more askant in view of your reference to the point that Jesus Christ. . .

goodguy:

. . . came to preach and establish peace among mankind, and even admonished us to turn the other cheek when wronged.

That said, I'm still asking the question: "What crime did Christians and Jews commit for Muhammad to have hated them so much?" I shouldn't doubt your being a Christian or Muslim; but if we have a sound basis for deliberating on this issue and progressing the discussion, you would have to agree that ishmael's opinion falls far short of the reality on the ground.

Now, when you stated you believe that. . .

goodguy:

. . .mukina2's response is plain sentimental.

. . .you're again not handling issues free from bias. I believe that mukina2 was stating the obvious as a Muslim (and my response to hers should demonstrate that I have no bones to pick with her). She was not throwing words wildly into the air, for what she stated is clearly a tenet of Islam. My question there was as to if her response helped your enquiry and your stated aim/motive? Muslims are not confused as to who the Qur'an refers to as infidels, so it really begs the proposal that we attempt a redefinition of what Muhammad meant by the term. In this instance, perhaps mamaput's interjection is well applicable:

mamaput:

You forgot to ask her who are the people of the book , her holy bookreferes her to

It's even more quizzical that you and ishmael take the view that Christians and Muslims worship the same God! That misconception has been severally thrashed in other threads, and you'd only need to calmly gather your facts before pushing such an idea.

May I ask again: what crime have Christians and Jews committed to merit Muhammad's unbridled hatred against them, especially when you admit that Jesus Christ came to preach peace?

@Bari_kade
it is people like you that makes it look as if the God of the Christians is different from the God of the muslims. If you are well learned in arabic language and was asked to translate the word of GOD in the Bible for Arabs to read and understand, what would be your translation for the word "GOD" in arabic?? Will it not be ALLAHU?? did the Jews call GOD "GOD"?? No, they called him Jehovah, El- shammah, El- shaddai and all that. In Ibo language they call God Chineke, in Kalabari language it is Tamuno, in urhobo language it is Oghene, in yoruba language it is Oluwa and in arabic please, GOD is ALLAHU. GOD can be said to be the english meaning for Chineke; GOD can be said to be the english meaning for Tamuno; GOD can be said to be the english meaning for Oghene; GOD can also be said to be the english meaning for ALLAHU. There is no difference between the GOD of the Bible and the GOD (ALLAH) of the Qu'ran. With all these nonsense you people are propagating and spreading about GOD and ALLAHU there will never be harmony and peace in this world. Muslims and Christians worship the same GOD. Q.E.D.

No they don't.

Islam and Christianity do not worship the same God.

Both religions have far different doctrines and by the same differences the tenets of both religion are laid.

An example:

*Basically, salvation in Christianity is by grace

*salvation in Islam is by works

* one of Christianity's doctrine is that Jesus is the Son of God, and Jesus is God. Also a member of the Trinity

* muslims believe J.C is a prophet but mere human. They do not believe the doctrine of Trinity and that Jesus is God.

Those are just a few. . .


It is error to say both religions worship God with a difference perspective. If it were so, we can as well say the same for Pagan worship, Hinduism, Bahai' faith and other forms of religion, after all, we can as well say they are "worshipping God with a difference perspective".

@ishmael,

Let's revisit your QED.

ishmael:

@Bari_kade
it is people like you that makes it look as if the God of the Christians is different from the God of the muslims.

Guilty as charged, except that I'm not one of those people "that makes it look as if" what you're charging is true.

ishmael:

If you are well learned in arabic language and was asked to translate the word of GOD in the Bible for Arabs to read and understand, what would be your translation for the word "GOD" in arabic?? Will it not be ALLAHU?? . . . in arabic please, GOD is ALLAHU.

I'm not a translator of the Qur'an, never have been, and never will be. If your allegations put me in the dock, no worries - just that you have rubbished the translations given by Muslims themselves who use "Allah" and not "ALLAH[b]U[/b]"! Therefore, please recommend to Muslims reading your post that Ali Yussuf, Pickthal and Shakir among others have rubbished the Qur'an by using 'Allah' instead of your own 'ALLAH[b]U[/b]!'

ishmael:

There is no difference between the GOD of the Bible and the GOD (ALLAH) of the Qu'ran. With all these nonsense you people are propagating and spreading about GOD and ALLAHU there will never be harmony and peace in this world. Muslims and Christians worship the same GOD.

If you don't see any difference between God in the Christian faith and Allah (or your ALLAH[b]U[/b]) in Islam, I really don't have any fusses about your vehemence to regard other people's opinions as "all these nonsense." I have only just asked questions in an attempt to progress the discussion; and all of a sudden my feet are held to the fire as it were.

Perhaps you could oblige me a few more questions: Is the God in the Bible (encompassing Christianity and Judaism) and the Allah or your ALLAH[b]U[/b] in the Qur'an the same Being? A few observations:

1. Jesus Christ in the NT urges Christians to love their enemies;
Muhammad in the Qur'an urges Muslims to ambush and slay them!

2. Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the Son of God and 'God' as His Father;
Muhammad categorically denied that claim in the Qur'an.

3. Jesus Christ confirmed that He died and rose again for salvation of people;
Muhammad denied the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ in the Qur'an.

4. Jesus Christ declared Himself as the Alpha and Omega in Revelation;
Muhammad qualifies Jesus as no more than a slave to Allah in the Qur'an.

5. Jesus Christ confirmed that He was the One Moses wrote about in the Law;
Muhammad denied this and appointed himself as the one Moses wrote about.

There are dozens more to the point; but would you still say in your QED that Jesus in the NT did not know what He was preaching, and only was saying the same thing as Muhammad? I don't mind "all these nonsense" in your rejoinder to my questions; but incase you missed the point, I leave you with Jesus' own words in John 3:3 -

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

What is the difference between ALLAH and ALLAHU?? There is no difference brother, it depends on how you want to pronounce and spell it. Is there a difference between JEHOVA and JEHOVAH?? Again what makes you believe that it is christians that worship the true GOD, that is if the GODs were different?? A muslim too can convince you that his GOD who he calls ALLAH in arabic is the true GOD by quoting his own scriptures for you. As a christian you believe GOD created the heaven and earth in 6 days; where you there when GOD was creating the heaven and earth?? No, but you believe with faith that it was so. the muslim man too also believes with faith that GOD called ALLAH in arabic created the heaven and earth in 6 days. For God's sake there is no difference; we are serving the same GOD but in differnt ways. Even in christianity the Catholic belief is quite different from that of other denominations; are we going to say that Catholics don't worship the same GOD with Christ Embassy or Redeem or Mountain of Fire??

bari_kade:

@goodguy,

It doesn't seem that you had an amicable motive for this topic ab initio. First it was something about the topic; then it was not the topic; and now, because the topic itself was misleading, it has become "the note expounding the topic itself".

Why have you deliberately chosen to misinterprete me?  Are you trying to ridicule me by doing this?  Please ask me to explain myself before twisting my posts next time.

I started this topic based on the reply I got from the other thread. .  the title was misleading, I agree.  But I expect anyone to understand what this thread is all about from the post that expounded the topic itself.  Unless you didn't read the whole post, then I see no reason for all these "analysis" of my motive.  The new title of this thread says, "God Supported Holy Wars In The Bible".   And in the first paragraph of my post, I said this:

goodguy: Why then are we Christians so quick to castigate the Muslims based on some Quranic verses that narrate how Holy wars were fought in the times of Muhammad?

So I don't know why all these questions about my motive are arising.  I asked someone to explain to me the reason, but no one has done that so far.  Rather, you've deviated from the topic and twisted things to make me look like I'm painting Christianity black, and making Islam appear like the only true religion.  That is not my motive, if that's what you're thinking, Sir.  And if no one can explain to me why Christians castigate Muslims on that basis, then I see no reason for all these "Your Allah/Muhammad is violent" attacks. And that's why my motive is to call off all these cat and dog fights between Christians and Muslims worldwide, starting from Nairaland. (By the way, are you aware that Nostradamus prophesied that the third world war will be a fight between Christians and Muslims, and that it's going to be bloodier than the first and second world wars? Whether it's true or not is not the issue now. Let's just strive to prevent any such occurence from happening. Anyway, that's another topic on its own).

So, do you now care enough to attend to my enquiries, or are you still wondering what my motive really is?

bari_kade:

. . .you're again not handling issues free from bias. I believe that mukina2 was stating the obvious as a Muslim (and my response to hers should demonstrate that I have no bones to pick with her). She was not throwing words wildly into the air, for what she stated is clearly a tenet of Islam. My question there was as to if her response helped your enquiry and your stated aim/motive? Muslims are not confused as to who the Qur'an refers to as infidels, so it really begs the proposal that we attempt a redefinition of what Muhammad meant by the term.

Perhaps, you're the one not handling issues free from bias.  I still believe mukina2's response was sentimental, because I live around Muslims, and have Muslims friends that will never utter such despicable statements.  Muslims I know personally all believe that Christians serve the same God that they serve.  They do not regard Christians as infidels, as mukina2 has made us believe, and as such, her own words should not be taken as the final say.

bari_kade:

It's even more quizzical that you and ishmael take the view that Christians and Muslims worship the same God! That misconception has been severally thrashed in other threads, and you'd only need to calmly gather your facts before pushing such an idea.

It's even far more quizzical that you and some other 'Christians' believe that Muslims worship idols!  That misconception has so much been promoted on this forum, that some peeps don't even know what to believe anymore.  Such misconceptions should be eradicated!

bari_kade:

May I ask again: what crime have Christians and Jews committed to merit Muhammad's unbridled hatred against them, especially when you admit that Jesus Christ came to preach peace?

Did Muhammad actually hate Christians?  Didn't Muhammad even regard Jesus Christ as a prophet, even though that's a misconception on its own?  Didn't Muhammad regard prophets in the Bible?  How exactly did he hate the Christians?

bari_kade:

Perhaps you could oblige me a few more questions: Is the God in the Bible (encompassing Christianity and Judaism) and the Allah or your ALLAH[b]U[/b] in the Qur'an the same Being? A few observations:

1. Jesus Christ in the NT urges Christians to love their enemies;
Muhammad in the Qur'an urges Muslims to ambush and slay them!

2. Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the Son of God and 'God' as His Father;
Muhammad categorically denied that claim in the Qur'an.

3. Jesus Christ confirmed that He died and rose again for salvation of people;
Muhammad denied the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ in the Qur'an.

4. Jesus Christ declared Himself as the Alpha and Omega in Revelation;
Muhammad qualifies Jesus as no more than a slave to Allah in the Qur'an.

5. Jesus Christ confirmed that He was the One Moses wrote about in the Law;
Muhammad denied this and appointed himself as the one Moses wrote about.

So, your own reason for believing that Muslims worship a different God is due to the fact that Jesus and Muhammad had differing views on certain issues? Is that it?

Why have you ruled out these parts of both religions?

1. Both religions beleive there's ONE supreme God that created Heaven and Earth.
2. Both religions believe there's ONE supreme God that is merciful and loving.
3. Both religions believe in the existence of Heaven and Hell.

. . . and so on.

Obviously, these are two different religions. You cannot expect two different religions to have the same views on all issues. It just isn't possible. Now let's take a look at Yoruba traditions. There are different gods served in Yorubaland. They probably don't even believe in Jesus, even though Ifa worshippers actually regard Jesus. There's a line in one of their incantations that refers to the son of the Virgin Mary and all that. . and they usually seek his help in spiritual matters. But then, those other worshippers of other gods that do not regard Jesus still believe in ONE Almighty God "up there" that is far more superior to them.

So as we can see, different people see and worship God in different ways, and this is exactly what I mean (okay, gbade. x?).

@ishmael,

ishmael:

What is the difference between ALLAH and ALLAHU??

You ought to have asked the Muslims who translated their Qur'an using just Allah and not your ALLAH[b]U[/b]!

ishmael:

There is no difference brother, it depends on how you want to pronounce and spell it.

Did I hint anywhere that there was a difference? I think you really have issues confused. The thrust of my responses is to clarify that both you and goodguy are wrong in supposing that Muslims and Christians worship the same God! Please be practical and visit a mosque with the confession before them that the Allah of the Qur'an is the Father of our Jesus Christ. Try persuading them that what they preach in their mosque is nonsense if they deny your confession, and then come back to the Forum to relate your findings.

ishmael:

the muslim man too also believes with faith that GOD called ALLAH in arabic created the heaven and earth in 6 days.

Please read the Qur'an before you make assertions that you can't defend. In other threads, not one Muslim has been able to tell us how many days his or her Allah in the Qur'an created the heaven and earth - anywhere from 4 to 8 days.

ishmael:

Even in christianity the Catholic belief is quite different from that of other denominations; are we going to say that Catholics don't worship the same GOD with Christ Embassy or Redeem or Mountain of Fire??

Catholics, Baptists, Anglicans, Christ Embassy, and Mountain of Fire all confess the God that is denied in the Bible by Muslims - the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Ghost! It's quite simply a challenge I've offered: please go to any mosque and tell them that the Trinity of the Bible is the same Allah they worship in the Mosque. If they accept that, then you would have made your point.

Let me just say, ishmael, I really don't want to waste time on you until you get your facts right. I'd like this discussion to make a headway if you can buttress your claims with references from the Qur'an, Hadith and the Bible. Failing to do so, it would be simply a futile effort making you see reason. Convince me of your persuasions by taking up my challenge to visit a mosque to tell them what I offered above.

Regards.

Islam and Judaism are almost the same in spirit. In fact, Islam is more liberal than Judaism: you can save yourself from a Jihadist by converting to Islam, but a Jew would insist that Jews are the chosen people. Christianity is peaceful, but built on a very militant foundation just like Islam. The Christian God is the same aggressive Jewish God.

@goodguy,

goodguy:

Why have you deliberately chosen to misinterprete me?  Are you trying to ridicule me by doing this?  Please ask me to explain myself before twisting my posts next time.

I have not deliberately chosen to misrepresent you. Several times I asked you questions, beginning with what your motive was. Your responses were treated in my rejoinders; and where you were not happy with the misleading title, you had to change it.

goodguy:

I started this topic based on the reply I got from the other thread. .  the title was misleading, I agree.  But I expect anyone to understand what this thread is all about from the post that expounded the topic itself.  Unless you didn't read the whole post, then I see no reason for all these "analysis" of my motive.  The new title of this thread says, "God Supported Holy Wars In The Bible".

Okay, now the title has been changed yet again. Was it too much for anyone to ask what your motive was in the first place? If you had issues from a previous thread, was anything wrong with my asking questions in this one?

goodguy:

So I don't know why all these questions about my motive are arising.  I asked someone to explain to me the reason, but no one has done that so far.  Rather, you've deviated from the topic and twisted things to make me look like I'm painting Christianity black, and making Islam appear like the only true religion. That is not my motive, if that's what you're thinking, Sir.

I'm not surprised you rather came to this inference, even though I haven't accused you of anything. Following the development of your original post, I simply wanted to know if you were more concerned about the topic or you had something else in mind! You confirmed that your quest was not about "Holy Wars In The Bible" - which was the original topic. If anyone was to proffer answers to the topic, what would you have made of them?

Not once have I sought to deviate from the topic; and that's why I offered another question about why Muhammad hated Christians and Jews so much. At least, mukina2 offered an answer as a Muslim; and I acknowledged it with thanks without trying to attack her. I hope you saw all that?

goodguy:

And if no one can explain to me why Christians castigate Muslims on that basis, then I see no reason for all these "Your Allah/Muhammad is violent" attacks.

So, which is it - the newly re-edited topic, or why Christians castigate Muslims on the violence purported in Muhammad's career? Nothing inferred here; I just want clear answers so that, at least, I don't fall foul of dealing with the topic when in fact you might have another issue on mind.

goodguy:

And that's why my motive is to call off all these cat and dog fights between Christians and Muslims worldwide, starting from Nairaland.

Ahh - there is the motive! Did I not state something similar in one of my earlier responses? see again:

bari_kade:

I sue for peace as a believer in Jesus Christ; and if my defence of the Old Testement does not help anyone, it still does not portray Jesus Christ as violent.

goodguy:

(By the way, are you aware that Nostradamus prophesied that the third world war will be a fight between Christians and Muslims, and that it's going to be bloodier than the first and second world wars? Whether it's true or not is not the issue now. Let's just strive to prevent any such occurence from happening. Anyway, that's another topic on its own).

I'll leave that until such other topic on its own emerges; and perhaps, that might just go so far to show how deeply seated this issue is between the divide.

goodguy:

So, do you now care enough to attend to my enquiries, or are you still wondering what my motive really is?

I never attacked your motive, and now that you've stated it, I also reminded you that my motives are for peaceful ends.

goodguy:

Perhaps, you're the one not handling issues free from bias.  I still believe mukina2's response was sentimental, because I live around Muslims, and have Muslims friends that will never utter such despicable statements.

And I still believe that mukina2 sincerely stated the obvious without drab or sentimentality.

goodguy:

Muslims I know personally all believe that Christians serve the same God that they serve.  They do not regard Christians as infidels, as mukina2 has made us believe, and as such, her own words should not be taken as the final say.

It's easy to sit down over the net and make such claims. Let's just be practical: goodguy, are you sure if you took your persuasions into Saudi Arabia declaring that that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, they would applaud you? There are more Muslims who are ready to denounce you and whatever you say as a Christian in typically Islamic cultures; so making inference about Islam from merely the feelings of friends does not reflect reality.

goodguy:

It's even far more quizzical that you and some other 'Christians' believe that Muslims worship idols!  That misconception has so much been promoted on this forum, that some peeps don't even know what to believe anymore.  Such misconceptions should be eradicated!

I think all the misconceptions traded across board should be eradicated - including yours. What is left at the end of the day is what people can defend; and those which have not been defended beg answers from Muslims themselves who haven't helped the matter at all.

goodguy:

Did Muhammad actually hate Christians?

I only asked the question: "what crimes have Christians and Jews committed to merit Muhammad's hatred so much?" Expanding this: why are Christians and Jews not free to practice their faiths in Muslim-dominant societies such as Christians provide Muslims in theirs?

As to if Muhammad actually hated Christians, I have many questions regarding that. By the time we begin to take issues individually, perhaps you may get the real picture.

goodguy:

Didn't Muhammad even regard Jesus Christ as a prophet, even though that's a misconception on its own?

So, how do we live peacefully with misconception when the party propagating it is demanding that your views should be erased and his own misconception becomes your new religion? You see, this is exactly why I have been seeking to take this topic by offering questions rather than stating prejudices.

goodguy:

Didn't Muhammad regard prophets in the Bible?  How exactly did he hate the Christians?

It depends on which prophets he regarded in the Bible. Have you noticed that he never mentioned any of the Biblical prophets who confirmed the deity of Jesus Christ, such as Isaiah, Zechariah and Micah? Please check again and let's compare notes on that. Then, we can then begin to understand why Muhammad never had any tolerance for any Christian believing what the Bible states. I'll leave it there for now until we can settle these pressing matters.

@goodguy,

goodguy:

So, your own reason for believing that Muslims worship a different God is due to the fact that Jesus and Muhammad had differing views on certain issues? Is that it?

Please don't try to amuse me with this simplistic view. Was it only a matter of differing views on certain issues that you read in both the Bible and the Qur'an? So, what are we to do with these "differing views" - pretend that they really don't matter at the end of the day? Sorry but I'm not that politically correct to deny the claims of Christ.

Jesus Christ said He is the Son of God, and that is the basis of our salvation. Muhammad denounces that confession and threatens Christians not to confess the divine sonship of Jesus. On the one hand, Jesus' divine Sonship is the confession that saves and qualifies for heaven; while on the other, Muhammad regarded that confession as the qualification for hell.

You and I, at least, know that there's a great gulf between heaven and hell; are we then to treat these matters as merely "differing views"?? I'm not just about ready to deny the Lordship of my Saviour.

goodguy:

Why have you ruled out these parts of both religions?

1. Both religions beleive there's ONE supreme God that created Heaven and Earth.
2. Both religions believe there's ONE supreme God that is merciful and loving.
3. Both religions believe in the existence of Heaven and Hell.

. . . and so on.

I don't remember ruling them out - do I need to be held accountable for what you didn't read as "ruled out" in my post?

goodguy:

Obviously, these are two different religions. You cannot expect two different religions to have the same views on all issues. It just isn't possible.

Please go back and read my post: I never hinted that it is possible for the two different religions to have the same views. So, what's your point?

goodguy:

Now let's take a look at Yoruba traditions. There are different gods served in Yorubaland. They probably don't even believe in Jesus, even though Ifa worshippers actually regard Jesus. There's a line in one of their incantations that refers to the son of the Virgin Mary and all that. . and they usually seek his help in spiritual matters. But then, those other worshippers of other gods that do not regard Jesus still believe in ONE Almighty God "up there" that is far more superior to them.

Aiight. And that proves what. . .??

goodguy:

So as we can see, different people see and worship God in different ways, and this is exactly what I mean (okay, gbade. x?).

Right, people see and worship God in different ways - even when Muhammad's view of Jesus was a misconception, as you acknowledged earlier. I get you.

bari_kade:

@goodguy,

I have not deliberately chosen to misrepresent you. Several times I asked you questions, beginning with what your motive was. Your responses were treated in my rejoinders; and where you were not happy with the misleading title, you had to change it.

I had to change the title because you were using it to reason out my so-called motive that you didn't even understand.

bari_kade:

Okay, now the title has been changed yet again. Was it too much for anyone to ask what your motive was in the first place? If you had issues from a previous thread, was anything wrong with my asking questions in this one?

I changed the title just once. What's with the "yet again"?

bari_kade:

I'm not surprised you rather came to this inference, even though I haven't accused you of anything.

You didn't have to spell it out for me to know. Different people think differently, you know.

bari_kade:

Following the development of your original post, I simply wanted to know if you were more concerned about the topic or you had something else in mind! You confirmed that your quest was not about "Holy Wars In The Bible" - which was the original topic. If anyone was to proffer answers to the topic, what would you have made of them?

I expect anyone to read the note that expounds any topic before commenting on the topic at all. You just don't look at the title of a thread and assume to know what the poster talking about.

bari_kade:

Not once have I sought to deviate from the topic;

Maybe I haven't made myself clear enough. I raised this topic to find out why Christians are so quick to point out acts of war in the Quran, and use that to attack them, accusing their Allah/Mohammad of being violent, when clearly, even in our own Bible, there were enough records of God supporting his people to go fight wars. Get it?

bari_kade:

and that's why I offered another question about why Muhammad hated Christians and Jews so much. At least, mukina2 offered an answer as a Muslim; and I acknowledged it with thanks without trying to attack her. I hope you saw all that?

Now, this is the deviation I'm talking about. It's just a bit relevant to the topic - not the issue I raised to be discussed at all.

bari_kade:

So, which is it - the newly re-edited topic, or why Christians castigate Muslims on the violence purported in Muhammad's career? Nothing inferred here; I just want clear answers so that, at least, I don't fall foul of dealing with the topic when in fact you might have another issue on mind.

I've provided the answer to that already.

bari_kade:

Ahh - there is the motive! Did I not state something similar in one of my earlier responses? see again:

I never attacked your motive, and now that you've stated it, I also reminded you that my motives are for peaceful ends.

And may I remind you that such peaceful ends that we both seek will never be established if we continually attack other people's religion.

bari_kade:

And I still believe that mukina2 sincerely stated the obvious without drab or sentimentality.

I believe she stated that due to what she has been experiencing from the hands of the Christians here on Nairaland, who are ever ready to attack her religion. I still believe she was just being sentimental.

bari_kade:

It's easy to sit down over the net and make such claims.

It's easy to sit down over the net and make any claims, just as mukina2 did.

bari_kade:

Let's just be practical: goodguy, are you sure if you took your persuasions into Saudi Arabia declaring that that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, they would applaud you? There are more Muslims who are ready to denounce you and whatever you say as a Christian in typically Islamic cultures;

Perhaps, Nigerian Muslims are the sensible ones? Okay seriously, I think you're missing the point. These Saudi Arabians believe in the same God that we believe in, but may never accept some Christian claims. They don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, you don't believe Muhammad is a messenger of God. So you see? It's all about what they see that is being attached to the God we both serve. They so much believe in this God and probably love him to bits, that they don't mind killing a fellow human for saying something offensive about Him. On the other hand, Jesus admonished us to take things easy and allow God do his thing - Something Muhammad probably never did. We are not in the position to fight for him -- this is what the Muslims fail to realise. Perhaps, if we could educate and admonish one another on this, rather than attack ourselves, this world will be a much more better place for both Christians and Muslims.

bari_kade:

so making inference about Islam from merely the feelings of friends does not reflect reality.

Making inference about Islam merely from the feelings of a Senegalese or some Saudi Arabians does not reflect reality either.

bari_kade:

I only asked the question: "what crimes have Christians and Jews committed to merit Muhammad's hatred so much?" Expanding this: why are Christians and Jews not free to practice their faiths in Muslim-dominant societies such as Christians provide Muslims in theirs?

Just like the Christians, they don't want their people to convert to another religion. They believe theirs is the only way.-- (But is there really an "only way"? I know Jesus said something concerning that in John 14:6, but where does that leave those that died before Him, and those that never heard of Him, or did not get convinced about the Gospel? Don't you think there's more to that statement than the way we normally interprete it? That's another topic also on its own anyway). -- And they know that allowing Christians to practise their faiths among them will draw people away from Islam. Christians naturally have this tendency to convince others to come into their religion because of their peaceful nature, and the Muslims do acknowledge this.

bari_kade:

So, how do we live peacefully with misconception when the party propagating it is demanding that your views should be erased and his own misconception becomes your new religion? You see, this is exactly why I have been seeking to take this topic by offering questions rather than stating prejudices.

Each to his own. As far as both serve the same God, there really isn't any need to push beliefs down the other's throat. And when one eventually converts into another religion, he/she has to accept the doctrines and and abide by teachings of that religion. We don't know God enough to know the all things He accepts, and those He does not. Our Bible tells us His ways are mysterious. That's why he's God.

bari_kade:

It depends on which prophets he regarded in the Bible. Have you noticed that he never mentioned any of the Biblical prophets who confirmed the deity of Jesus Christ, such as Isaiah, Zechariah and Micah? Please check again and let's compare notes on that. Then, we can then begin to understand why Muhammad never had any tolerance for any Christian believing what the Bible states. I'll leave it there for now until we can settle these pressing matters.

And have you wondered why? Perhaps he didn't believe them. Perhaps, he found it ridiculous and hard to accept that any man that could have been seen and touched by other mortals should be equated with the Almighty? Perhaps, he found it hard to understand the concept of trinity? Or perhaps, God deliberately chose not to reveal certain secrets to him? Have you ever wondered if God is just trying to prove a point? Have you ever wondered why God does and allows certain things? By the way, I'm just wondering myself. . God is Great!

bari_kade:

@goodguy,

Please don't try to amuse me with this simplistic view. Was it only a matter of differing views on certain issues that you read in both the Bible and the Qur'an? So, what are we to do with these "differing views" - pretend that they really don't matter at the end of the day? Sorry but I'm not that politically correct to deny the claims of Christ.

Jesus Christ said He is the Son of God, and that is the basis of our salvation. Muhammad denounces that confession and threatens Christians not to confess the divine sonship of Jesus. On the one hand, Jesus' divine Sonship is the confession that saves and qualifies for heaven; while on the other, Muhammad regarded that confession as the qualification for hell.

You and I, at least, know that there's a great gulf between heaven and hell; are we then to treat these matters as merely "differing views"?? I'm not just about ready to deny the Lordship of my Saviour.

I know Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Every true Christian knows and accepts that. But do the Muslims know? I know they've been told and preached to, but are they convinced? We have to first of all understand that these people do not even know, talkless of accepting. . hence, their denial. It's one thing for me to know something as the truth and deny outrightly. It's another for me to be oblivious of it, and then deny based on my ignorance. I don't believe a merciful God will punish me for the latter.

bari_kade:

I don't remember ruling them out - do I need to be held accountable for what you didn't read as "ruled out" in my post?

But you didn't mention them. That spells 'B I A S' to me.

bari_kade:

Please go back and read my post: I never hinted that it is possible for the two different religions to have the same views. So, what's your point?

My point is that we should not attack another religion based on what they fail to see and accept from our own side. Because clearly, they we do not also accept so many things from their side.

bari_kade:

Aiight. And that proves what. . .??

This. . . :

goodguy:

. . . those other worshippers of other gods that do not regard Jesus still believe in ONE Almighty God "up there" that is far more superior to them.

bari_kade:

Right, people see and worship God in different ways - even when Muhammad's view of Jesus was a misconception, as you acknowledged earlier. I get you.

This one has been settled, I believe?

@ Bari_kade
If you will notice, it is not everyone that claims to be a "christiann" that is really one! Of such Apostle Paul already spoke about:

2 Timothy 3: 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

When deluded "christians" begin to equate the ALMIGHTY God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with the idol that is Allah of the quran, then you know that indeed the end is here! From such turn aside, it is not advisable to cast your pearls before swine!

@davidylan,

You won't believe it, but in our Bible Study last night we were reminded of exactly the same thing you just spoke about! Many people who know the truth about Christ often will look for excuses to play into the hands of deniers of the same truth they seem to profess. The gentleman who led the Bible study added to my vocab by referring to such as 'eristic' - those who are given to disputation for its own sake and often employing specious arguments. He recommended II Tim 2:22-26, and warned that some of us Christians, if not careful, might indeed be in the same cubicle:

"Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

Thanks, davidylan, for yours.

@goodguy,

goodguy:

I had to change the title because you were using it to reason out my so-called motive that you didn't even understand.

Since I didn't want to prejudge your motive, I asked from the very onset.

goodguy:

I expect anyone to read the note that expounds any topic before commenting on the topic at all. You just don't look at the title of a thread and assume to know what the poster talking about.

I made no assumptions - that's why my first entry was a question, after having read your post.

goodguy:

Maybe I haven't made myself clear enough. I raised this topic to find out why Christians are so quick to point out acts of war in the Quran, and use that to attack them, accusing their Allah/Mohammad of being violent, when clearly, even in our own Bible, there were enough records of God supporting his people to go fight wars. Get it?

Four issues here:

1. If I investigate the claims of any 'prophet' or religion, questions must be asked - and that is precisely why my question was: what crime did Christians and Jews commit to have merited Muhammad's hatred? If Christians use the violence in Muhammad's career to refute his claims of prophethood, one would expect that Muslim apologists themselves offer sound and sane reasons for any misconceptions to that.

2. When your exercise is focused on wars in the Bible, you fail to clearly delineate between the OT and NT; and as Christians we have often challenged this misconception that the OT wars be blamed on Christianity rather than seeking to understand the basis of Judaism. My very first entry to this thread quoted a line in which you acknowledged Jesus Christ came in peace. Why you think Christians are as bellicose as Muslims simply begs the question.

3. It is not only Christians who are concerned about the spate of violence from the Muslim camp - and the cartoons that sparked Muslim riots in the recent past is just one testimony to the point. The basic question on everyone's lips has been: "why is Islam so violent?" Rather than seek dialogue, Muslims themselves have responded with belligerence, threats to blow up the West (as everything 'western' is Christian in the typical Muslim mindset), more threats to annihilate Israel, and vitriolic blasphemies against the Christian faith. In the face of these, many more people of various faiths and political positions are questioning the violent nature of Islam; so it is not only Christians who are talking about these issues [you might as well want to see this youtube clip offered by babyosis to the point].

4. The violence in Islam is not the only issue that is being debated by Christians. There are many more issues that border on the lifestyle of Muhammad - such as his admission to being a sinner needing to repent seventy times a day; his moral life on women and sex; and his denials of the teaching of Christ. Even when Muhammad's violence is not mentioned, how have Muslims responded to any questioning of these other issues?

These and more are the reasons why I feel up until now you haven't really taken the time to even understand the position of Christians debating issues with Muslims.

goodguy:

And may I remind you that such peaceful ends that we both seek will never be established if we continually attack other people's religion.

I wait to see how your complaint is going to establish peace. What you fail to realise is that before Christians started talking about these issues, Islam already had the deep-seated agenda to annihilate everything "Christian" or "Jewish" - nevermind that atheists and pagans are even worse treated. One of the tenets of Islam expressed as a prophecy is that when Christ returns, He will destroy the Cross and force Christians and others to become Muslims. What you often call "attack" is a complaint that is narrow in perspective and still fails to see the bigger picture.

goodguy:

I believe she stated that due to what she has been experiencing from the hands of the Christians here on Nairaland, who are ever ready to attack her religion. I still believe she was just being sentimental.

Is it only on Nairaland that Christians have refuted the claims of Muhammad and rejected him as a prophet? Again, you really are not demonstrating a full picture of how Islam portrays Christians and Jews. It is clear that mukina[/b]2's one-line statement speaks volumes without sentiments; and until you actually have studied Islam, you will continue to miss the point.

goodguy:

It's easy to sit down over the net and make any claims, just as [b]mukina2 did.

Go beyond the net and delve into the books - a trial will convince you.

goodguy:

Perhaps, Nigerian Muslims are the sensible ones? Okay seriously, I think you're missing the point. These Saudi Arabians believe in the same God that we believe in, but may never accept some Christian claims. They don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, you don't believe Muhammad is a messenger of God. So you see? It's all about what they see that is being attached to the God we both serve. They so much believe in this God and probably love him to bits, that they don't mind killing a fellow human for saying something offensive about Him.

It's remarkable that you'd even mention that Muslims "don't mind killing a fellow human" - and for what? That sounds to me like a choice between a sandwich and a burger - one doesn't mind sometimes between the two. Please, goodguy, we really mind about life, and that's why we celebrate it. It is not a matter to be treated in such cavalier fashion - and Jesus Christ Himself takes the issue seriously:

"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service" - John 16:2.

goodguy:

On the other hand, Jesus admonished us to take things easy and allow God do his thing - Something Muhammad probably never did.

It is not a matter of probability - Muhammad simply did not take things easy!

goodguy:

We are not in the position to fight for him -- this is what the Muslims fail to realise. Perhaps, if we could educate and admonish one another on this, rather than attack ourselves, this world will be a much more better place for both Christians and Muslims.

Many times the effort to "educate and admonish" people if regarded as "attacking ourselves." That is why my approach is simply to ask questions instead of prejudging people and issues; offer my persuasions as sanely as possible without the drama of timidity; and pray that people learn something that the Holy Spirit will use in their lives to spark a conviction. I apologise if my presentations fail to reach these ideals; yet I'd appeal that we all get to grips with the truth of Jesus Christ and not treat it as a matter merely of different opinions between Himself and Muhammad.

@goodguy,

goodguy:

Making inference about Islam merely from the feelings of a Senegalese or some Saudi Arabians does not reflect reality either.

Agreed - that's why I still call for the records in the Books between Christianity and Islam, while seeking to understand Judaism.

goodguy:

Just like the Christians, they don't want their people to convert to another religion. They believe theirs is the only way.-- (But is there really an "only way"? I know Jesus said something concerning that in John 14:6, but where does that leave those that died before Him, and those that never heard of Him, or did not get convinced about the Gospel? Don't you think there's more to that statement than the way we normally interprete it? That's another topic also on its own anyway).

When Jesus categorically stated in John 14:6 that He is the Way and you are questioning that as a Christian, I'll leave you answerable to Him alone.

goodguy:

And they know that allowing Christians to practise their faiths among them will draw people away from Islam.

Now this is where it gets interesting - when Muslims know that Christians practising their faith will draw people away from islam, what has been the response of Muslims to Christians? Contrast that with the response of Christians to those who are drawn to Islam - and why do you think we ask questions about the violent nature of Islam?

goodguy:

Christians naturally have this tendency to convince others to come into their religion because of their peaceful nature, and the Muslims do acknowledge this.

Right. Now again my question: if Christians are disposed to peaceful means, why are Muslims threatening people all over the place?

goodguy:

Each to his own. As far as both serve the same God, there really isn't any need to push beliefs down the other's throat.

This is one more confirmation that you really do not understand Islam. This neutrality you propose does not exist in reality in the Muslim world.

goodguy:

And when one eventually converts into another religion, he/she has to accept the doctrines and and abide by teachings of that religion. We don't know God enough to know the all things He accepts, and those He does not. Our Bible tells us His ways are mysterious. That's why he's God.

First, I don't see any reason why a convert would have to accept and abide by the teachings of Christianity if we don't know God enough to know what He accepts or disapproves. This is quite a convoluted position to assume; and I'm not inclined to take that norminal position as a Christian.

Second, the Christian faith is soundly based on what the Word teaches and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. How many times do we read in Scripture about the deep conviction of knowing God through His Spirit? See a few -

John 7:17 - "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

John 8:32 - "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

John 10:5 - And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 12:50 - "And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak."

Rom. 8:16 - "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God"

I John 2:21 - "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth."

How then can anyone as a Christian claim that we don't know enough of God to know what He accepts?

goodguy:

And have you wondered why? Perhaps he didn't believe them. Perhaps, he found it ridiculous and hard to accept that any man that could have been seen and touched by other mortals should be equated with the Almighty? Perhaps, he found it hard to understand the concept of trinity? Or perhaps, God deliberately chose not to reveal certain secrets to him? Have you ever wondered if God is just trying to prove a point? Have you ever wondered why God does and allows certain things? By the way, I'm just wondering myself. . God is Great!

Your frequent use of perhaps says two things (and I'm not trying to be accusative): (a) you either are trying to euphemise what you might already know for a certainty; (b) you're accusing God of issues that define the lost destiny of billions of souls.

Muhammad clearly denied the claims of Christ - and that is not an issue that can be settled on any "perhaps".