Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:

The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".


1.
MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:


Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):


i)

Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]


ii)
Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii)
Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)


Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]


iv)
Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v)
Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv)
Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

2.
It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19


"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."


3.
Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:


It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".


4.
prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:


Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.


Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the New Testament:

Al-Qur'an Chapter 61 Verse 6:

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.' But when he came to them with clear signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!' "

All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians.


1.
John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

2.
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

3.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:


"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the
Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.
Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the
Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise
that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the
Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet
Muhammad (pbuh).


4.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

The Sprit of Truth, spoken about in this prophecy referes to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James Version.

A muslim has touched and read the bible and openly declared it no one stoned him or cut off his head I wonder if it was a christian that touched the koran what would have happened?

Keep it up,

A muslim has touched and read the bible and openly declared it no one stoned him or cut off his head I wonder if it was a christian that touched the koran what would have happened?
[quote][/quote]

have you ever witnessed a scene that a non muslim stoned or got his head cutted because he has a contact or touch the qur'an?

Please, if you ever witnesses such explain.

chakula:

have you ever witnessed a scene that a non muslim stoned or got his head cutted because he has a contact or touch the qur'an?

Perhaps there's such an incident:

Teacher beat to death by mob of Muslim students in her classroom

The details of Christianah's death are shocking.

Christianah was supervising an all-girl class while they were taking an Islamic Religious Knowledge examination, a routine job by any teacher's standards the world over.

. . .

One of the girls responded by starting to cry and was soon telling her classmates that there had been a copy of the Quran in her bag left in front of the classroom.

The girl claimed that because Christianah was a Christian, she had desecrated the Quran by touching it.
______________

(1) http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/cover032907.htm

(2) http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070326/nigeria-christian-teacher-killed-by-muslim-student-mob/index.html

@balium,

balium:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:

The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".

We don't find Muhammad anywhere in the Law or the Gospels in the Bible.

1.
MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:


Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

Your arguments for Muhammad in the Bible are a repeat dub of the same things we have trashed out in other threads - see The Bible Confirms The Messengership Of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Perhaps the simply way to answer your thread is to repost my answer from that thread:

---

The foundation of Deuteronomy 18:18 is the Mosaic covenant given to Isreal as found reiterated in Deuteronomy chapter 5 - "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb", and goes on to show that this covenant was not made with any other nation apart from the Jews. For Deut. 18:18 to have any import, it would have to be based on the covenant which forms its foundation - and that is where we shall try to understand what is meant in that context by 'brethren'.

First, Jews do not receive their prophecies from Arabs - which is why that verse in 18:18 clearly points out.

Second, 'brethren' as used there is one of covenant relationship among all those who are home-born as Jews and can show their pedigree from the families of Israel. Others who lived among them but could not point to any Jewish family ties were called 'sojourners' or 'strangers', not brethren. It is for this reason that two distinct groups were recognized in Israel based upon that covenant: "Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel" (Lev. 20:2).

Third, it is important for anyone at that time to identify their pedigree - otherwise it would be practically impossible for such a person to know where they stood in relation to the covenant life of Israel. Some of these covenant living include:

[list][li]the feast of the Jews[/li]
[li]political and civil life[/li]
[li]covenant relationships in prophecy[/li][/list]

Where is Muhammad in all that?

But more to the point is that there was only ONE LAW applicable to all who dwelt within Israel (Lev. 24:22); yet, sojourners (that is non-Jewish people dwelling in Israel) could not partake of the feasts of the Jews in exactly the same ceremonial standing as a native Jew. Why? Because when the covenant was made and ratified, it was representing only Jews - "The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day" (Deut. 5:3). So what then does this entail? Look below:

A. Jewish Feasts - Conditions for the Sojourner:

[list]Exodus 12:43-45, 48 ~~ "And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof." . . . "And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof."[/list]
[list]Exodus 29:33 - "And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy."[/list]
[list]Lev. 22:10 - "There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing."[/list]


B. Jewish Political Governance - Strangers Cannot Be Kings

[list]Deuteronomy 17:14-15  ~ "When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me; Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother."[/list]


The Law makes a clear case for the following regarding Jews and sojourners/strangers:

[list](a) a sojourner or stranger (a non-native Jew) could not be a Jewish priest
(b) a sojourner or stranger (a non-native Jew) could not be a Jewish king
(c)  a sojourner or stranger (a non-native Jew) could not be a Jewish prophet[/list]

And all those 3 elements were pointing to the very Messiah in Jewish prophecies.

You can see that the Law does not confuse a Jew for a non-Jew; and nowhere in the Law is an Arab included in the covenant of the Jews. Muhammad is not one of the Jews, nor could he have been one of their 'brethren' to rise from among them based on that Jewish covenant. Deedat should have pointed all this to you and told you the plain truth - no, he did not; rather he just trailed off wherever he saw 'brethren' and assumed it applied to Muhammad; yet, not even Muhammad recognized the Jews as his 'brethren', and that is no surprise to see why the Arab Muslims hate the Jews to this day.

I wonder why muslims are always trying to gain acceptability through the Bible.

I almost touched a neighbours koran once in osun state and he almost killed me for polluting it with my infidel hands. He said non moslems are not permited to read the koran.

1.
John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

2.
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

3.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:


"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the
Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.
Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the
Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise
that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the
Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet
Muhammad (pbuh).


4.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".this is point clear that the comforter was not refering to the holy spirit but to another prophet yet to come and as i far i can recollect no other prophet came jesus except muhammad.

balium:

1.
John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

2.
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

3.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

Only quoting these verses alone should show any unbiased reader that Muhammad is NOT spoken of in any of those verses. There are a few things to consider for those who argue Muhammad into John's Gospel -

1. Muhammad is nowhere ever called "the Spirit" - not in the Bible, not in the Quran, not in the Hadiths, and definitely NOT in any Islamic prophecy given by Muhammad himself. If you find any verse at all where Allah ever referred to Muhammad as "the Spirit", you can kindly post such a verse for us to read for ourselves. Where you cannot post such a verse from your Quran or Hadiths, it means you're only arguing your Muslim fallacy into other people's religion and making a mockery of your own Quran.

2. In Islam, God is NOT known as Father. Therefore, when John 15:26 says that the Spirit comes from the Father and is sent by Jesus Christ, we know already that such a verse was not about Muhammad. You would have to look for a new way of twisting the Quran to pretend that Allah is ever referred to by Muslims as 'Father', or admit that Muhammad's Islam has nothing to do with John's Gospel.

3. John 16:7 says: "... but if I depart, I will send him unto you" - that was Jesus speaking, and affirming that He would send the Comforter. If Muslims want to argue Muhammad into that verse, then they are saying that it was Jesus who sent Muhammad - which we know is factually denied in Islam! Muhammad has nothing in all the Quran nor the hadiths to show that he was sent by Jesus - so why do Muslims try ever so hard to dribble Muhammad into John's Gospel?

balium:

"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the Greek word Periclytos.

For starters, there is no Greek word 'periclytos'. No native Greek speaker will tell you there is a Greek word known as 'periclytos' - instead, it is only Muslim propagandists that twist all sorts of words to mean something in Islam that it does not mean outside Islam.

Second, the Greek word 'paraklētos' (παράκλητος) does not come close to meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one". Rather, it means 'one who pleads another’s cause', such as an advocate.

In order to achieve any semblance of 'periclytos' for the meaning of 'Ahmed', Muslims have to corrupt a language they do not understand so as to find gaps to squeeze Muhammad into the fit.

In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.

Okay, thanks for admitting that Paracletos means 'advocate or a kind friend' - does that sound anything like the meaning you have given for Ahmed?

Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos.

Please show us how that is so, instead of repeating the age-old Muslim lie. How is 'paracletos' the warped reading of 'periclytos'?

Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name.

Please show us - because this vacant "say-so" is not going to work any magic for your propaganda.

Even the Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

The word Paraclete does not refer to Muhammad. Where did Allah ever speak Greek and said in your Quran that Muhammad was to be called 'paraclete'?

Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come.

The promise of the Holy Spirit was given by the OT prophets as well to indicate an outpouring of God's Spirit on all who should believe on Jesus Christ (see Joel 2 for example). In John's Gospel, Jesus was referring to the same thing that the OT prophets had made known about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet
Muhammad (pbuh).

The Holy Spirit had been present on earth but had not been poured out upon all believers in Christ UNTIL Jesus would be glorified (John 7:39 - "But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified".

4.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".this is point clear that the comforter was not refering to the holy spirit but to another prophet yet to come and as i far i can recollect no other prophet came jesus except muhammad.

John 16:12-14 was not speaking about another prophet. I hope you did not miss the fact that the Comforter is called "the Spirit of Truth", and that this "Spirit of Truth" is called "the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost" in John 14:26.

~ Where in the Quran is Muhammad called "the Spirit of Truth"?

~ Where in the hadiths did Allah refer to Muhammad as "the Spirit"?

~ Where in the Quran or hadiths did Allah refer to Muhammad as "the Holy Ghost"?

When you Muslims have nothing to show for Muhammad anywhere, you abandon your Quran and keep running to the Bible for support about your arab prophet.

@Nezan; « #6 on: Yesterday at 04:51:13 PM »

I wonder why muslims are always trying to gain acceptability through the Bible.

slam and or the muslims, neither depends on the Bible (OT or NT). Allah says the Bible is corrupt. Thisis enough.

But when you read through, since the Lord of Creation says that you will find Muhammad mentioned, it is therefore prudent to realise that the corruption is not an excuse to not find tht part of the truth that still remain in the Bible, evn if the wording is at best opague. When you read where Moses was reportedly told by his Lord that a similar messenger/prophet will be sent among his bretheren, it will be dishonest to say that this future human messenger/prophet is comingfrom the Israelites. The active word is bretheren. Jews are not bretheren to anyone except the Ismaili bloodline, the eldest child of Ibraim.

when you read the NT, it will be a denial o Jesus himself to say that the comforter that he promised, being a spirit (spiritual entity from God) is not a human being, messenger/prophet, but a ghostly being, whose voice cant be heard, in order that he informs, reminds, glorifies, and teaches.

you can keep deuding yourself, indeed your soul and heart. this living a lie wil not change the fact of the matter.


@Igonih; « #7 on: Yesterday at 08:40:41 PM »

I almost touched a neighbours koran once in osun state and he almost killed me for polluting it with my infidel hands. He said non moslems are not permited to read the koran.

the word infidel does not place itself in any page of the Quran. it is an english word, and instead of saying disbelievers, evil doers, etc, the english people wanted to drag Quran into the mud as the Bible was aready in it, having the word Infidel in Timothy (you need to check it out).

And for your neghbor in Osun state, his ignorance was whatyou saw, because he easily coul have told you to go wash your backside and front properly, wash your hands after it befoe you touch it. yet this muslim neighbor should have known that if one intends to do good, there is a reward for the intent, even if the elements for the actions are not available and the action never takes place.
a muslim in sexual inpurity must clean up. but if thee is no water, clean sand is used instead, though the person may still have the smell of sex, but he/she is pure with what was done with the dirt, considering that the intention was to use water, in the first place.

your touching Quran as a non muslim is not to defile it, i will imagine, but your curiousity. it is therefore okay if you can pick up english or your native language copy, since in reality you cant read th Quran in its authentic Arabic language anyhow. English languag meaning of Quran is widely distributed here in the Western nations. It is non Muslims that will receive it, for the most part.

nopuqeater:

@Nezan; « #6 on: Yesterday at 04:51:13 PM » slam and or the muslims, neither depends on the Bible (OT or NT). Allah says the Bible is corrupt. Thisis enough.

We have heard that muslim lie so many times it no longer amuses us. First, muslims went about claiming that the Quran came to 'correct' the Bible; but when challenged, you guys could not find any verse where Allah ever said such a thing in your Quran. Rather, we have many verses in your Quran saying it came to CONFIRM the Bible. If your Allah is claiming to CONFIRM what muslims now claim is corrupt, your Islam must be one confused mess indeed.

But when you read through, since the Lord of Creation says that you will find Muhammad mentioned, it is therefore prudent to realise that the corruption is not an excuse to not find tht part of the truth that still remain in the Bible, evn if the wording is at best opague.

Please stop amusing yourself. There is no verse in your Quran arguing that rubbish about opaque wording. Muhammad is NOT in the Bible - unless of course, you might be referring to Bible verses confirming him to be a false prophet.

When you read where Moses was reportedly told by his Lord that a similar messenger/prophet will be sent among his bretheren, it will be dishonest to say that this future human messenger/prophet is comingfrom the Israelites. The active word is bretheren. Jews are not bretheren to anyone except the Ismaili bloodline, the eldest child of Ibraim.

You're on a propaganda trail, no wonder. Muslims know that  Islam does not consider the Jews to be their "brethren" - and there are many verses in the Quran and hadiths where Muhammad's hatred for the Jews is explicit.

Besides, the Jewish nation emerged from the grandson of Abraham - JACOB. This fact would make Ishmael an uncle to Jacob from whom came the twelve tribes of Israel. Go do the maths properly before assuming trash here.

In another place, your fellow muslim was speaking about COUSIN, not brethren. And to argue your fallacy of brethren here is beyond dishonesty - we all know that Islam does not consider Muslims and Jews to be "brethren". Stop deceiving yourself.

when you read the NT, it will be a denial o Jesus himself to say that the comforter that he promised, being a spirit (spiritual entity from God) is not a human being, messenger/prophet, but a ghostly being, whose voice cant be heard, in order that he informs, reminds, glorifies, and teaches.

Is that the best you can do? Please post us any verse from your Quran or hadith where Allah ever addressed Muhammad as SPIRIT. Is there any such verse in any book in Islam? Where did Allah say so?

Muhammad is NOT ever called 'the Spirit' - not in the Bible, not in your Quran, and definitely NOT in your hadiths. Anyone trying to make out that Muhammad was "the Spirit" is lying through his yellow teeth. Period.

you can keep deuding yourself, indeed your soul and heart. this living a lie wil not change the fact of the matter.

Thanks for describing what you're doing to yourself - which is not breaking news. Muslims have always lied, so what's the biggy in that? Just post us any verse where Allah referred to Muhammad as "the Holy Spirit" and let's see how much of your lies will remain.

nopuqeater

Thanks for clearing things up o. I appreciate the way you anserwed You are truly a peaceful muslim

ahahahahahahahahahahahhhahahahaha muslims illiterate won't let me rest with laugh ahahahahahahah who said that ismai was brother to israel ahahaha or brethren please try to find the mean of that BRETHEREN in your dictionary before you come here to post trash FISRT TRY TO KNOW THE MEANING OF BRETHEREN BEFORE YOU COME HERE .

whats all religious fightings about when we have more pressing issues at hand.Hold on to ur own faith and belief and it might save u on the last day

THE PROPHECY IN DEUTERONOMY
When Moses went to Mount Horeb under the command of God, he
addressed the Israelites saying:
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet
from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me;
unto him ye shall hearken (Deuteronomy 18:15).
God spoke to Moses saying:
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their
brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his
mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall
command him. And it shall come to pass, that
whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he
shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. But the
prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my
name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or
that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that
prophet shall die (Deuteronomy 18:18-20).
From these passages it is evident that Moses prophesied about a
Law-giving Prophet who was to appear after him, and who was to be
from among the brethren of Israel.
That he was to be a Law-giver, and not an ordinary Prophet is
obvious from the words “like unto” Moses. As Moses was a Law-giver,
the Prophet, who was to be like Moses, was also to be a Law-giver. The
Promised Prophet is described as one who “shall speak unto them all that
I shall command him.” From this also it appears that the Promised
Prophet was to be a Law-giving Prophet. The promulgation of a new
Law means the initiation of a new movement, a new nation. A Prophet
who promulgates a new Law, therefore, is no ordinary Teacher or
Reformer. He has to present a comprehensive teaching, incorporating
fundamental principles as well as detailed rules. Without it a new nation
cannot be raised. But a Prophet who does not bring a new Law has only
to explain and to annotate an already existing Law. It is not necessary for
him to present all that he receives from God to his people. It is possible
that some of his revelations may be meant only for his personal
edification, which he is under no obligation to pass on to his people. The
prophecy also lays down that the Promised Prophet will “speak in my
name”, and those who will not listen to him, God will “require it” of
them; that is, those who turn a deaf ear will incur punishment. We are
12
also told that any one who pretends to fulfil the prophecy will be put to
death.
If we keep in view all the terms of the prophecy, we are bound to
conclude that until at least the time of Jesus no Prophet had appeared in
the world who could be said to have answered to the description of the
Promised Prophet. All the Prophets who appeared between Moses and
Jesus, therefore, may be ignored, when we set out in search of the
Prophet who could be said to have fulfilled this prophecy. They have left
no following and no people who could espouse their claims. Only Jesus
remains who has a large following, and who is regarded by his followers
as the last Teacher sent by God into this world. But when we apply, one
by one, the terms of the prophecy to Jesus, we find that not one of them
applies to him:
First, the Promised Prophet was to be a Law-giving Prophet. Was
Jesus a Law-giver? Did he bring a new Law into the world to replace an
old one? Jesus said clearly:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For
verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot
or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled (Matthew 5:17-18).
The followers of Jesus went so far as to declare:
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth
them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from
the curse of the law, ,  (Galatians, 3:12-13).
Jesus laid no claim to giving a new Law, and his disciples regard the
Law as a curse. How then can Jesus and his followers be said to fulfil the
prophecy in Deuteronomy?
Secondly, the Promised Prophet was to be raised not from among
Israel but from among their brethren and Jesus was an Israelite.
Christian exponents, confronted with this fact, are wont to say that
Jesus had no earthly father, so he can be said to be one of the brethren of
Israel. But such a construction would be untenable. The prophecy speaks
of brethren, which means they were to constitute a race or a people from
among whom the Promised Prophet was to rise. Jesus stands alone, as
son of God. If there were other sons of God, he might have answered to
the description of the prophecy. But, apart from this, it is clearly laid
down in the Bible that Christ was to be of the seed of David (Psalms,
13
132:11; Jeremiah, 23:5). Jesus may shed his Israelite origin because he
had no earthly father: but he will not then remain a son of David, so that
the prophecy of the Psalms relating to Christ will not apply to him.
Thirdly, the prophecy says: “I will put my words in his mouth.” But
the Gospels do not consist of words which God put in Jesus’ mouth.
They only tell us the story of Jesus and what he said in some of his
public addresses and what his disciples said or did on different occasions.
Fourthly, the Promised One was to be a Prophet, while the Christian
view is that Jesus was not a Prophet, but the son of God. How, then, can
Jesus answer to the description of the prophecy?
Fifthly, we have in the prophecy: “Words which he shall speak in my
name.” Strange as it may seem, there is in the Gospels not a single
example of words which Jesus maybe said to have received from God
with the command to pass them on to the people whom he taught.
Sixthly, we have in the prophecy: “He shall speak unto them all that I
shall command.” The Promised Prophet, according to this, was to give to
the world a complete and comprehensive teaching. But Jesus claimed no
such mission for himself. He regarded himself as the forerunner of a
greater Teacher yet to come. Thus we have (John, 16:12-13):
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye
cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of
truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he
shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear,
that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
From these verses it appears that the prophecy in Deuteronomy was
not fulfilled in Jesus. We cannot but conclude, therefore, that both the
Old and the New Testaments foretold the coming of a Prophet after Jesus
who was to guide the world “unto all truth”, and who was to establish the
name of God on earth for all time. Our claim is that the revelation of the
Quran and the advent of the Holy Prophet mark the fulfilment of the
prophecy in Deuteronomy. The following facts bear this out:
(i) The Holy Prophet Muhammad was a descendant of Ishmael. The
descendants of Ishmael were the brethren of the descendants of Isaac, the
Israelites.
(ii) The Holy Prophet is the only one claiming to be a Prophet like
Moses. We have in the Quran (73:16):
14
Verily We have sent to you a Messenger, who is a
witness over you, even as We sent a Messenger to
Pharaoh.
The Quran definitely likens the Holy Prophet to Moses.
(iii) The prophecy described the Promised One as a Prophet. The
Holy Prophet claimed to be a Prophet only. Jesus, we are told, on the
other hand, did not claim to be a Prophet. We read in Mark (8:27-30):
He asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do
men say that I am? and they answered, John the Baptist:
but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.
And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I Am?
And Peter answereth and saith unto him. Thou art the
Christ. And he charged them that they should tell no
man of him.
That is to say, Jesus denies being either John the Baptist, or Elias, or
one of the Prophets. But the prophecy in Deuteronomy speaks of the
Promised One as a Prophet like Moses. The prophecy, therefore, applies
to the Prophet of Islam and not to Jesus.
(iv) The prophecy speaks of “words I will put in his mouth.” The
Gospels do not contain any such words. On the contrary, the Holy
Prophet of Islam brought to the world the Quran which is from beginning
to end only the word of God, which God put into his mouth. The Quran
describes itself as the word of God (2:76).
(v) The prophecy said that the Promised One would speak all that he
was commanded. We have quoted the Gospels to prove that Jesus did not
pass on everything he received from God, and that there was to be
another after him, who was to do so. The Holy Prophet of Islam fully
answers to this description. We have in the Quran (5:68): “O Messenger!
convey to the people what has been revealed to thee from thy Lord.” The
verse seems to say, “O Prophet, there is an ancient prophecy about you
which said that when you come into the world you would give to it all
the truths you received from your God. Therefore preach to the world
whatever is revealed to you, whether it likes it or not.” Similarly, the
verse revealed on the completion of the revelation of the Quran says:
This day have I perfected your religion for you and
completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you
Islam as religion (5:4).
15
That is to say, “Through the revelation of the Quran, faith has been
made perfect and the gift of guidance made complete for you, and peace
and tranquillity have been appointed for you as your religion.” It was the
Holy Prophet of Islam, therefore, who taught everything and kept back
nothing. In the time of Jesus, people were not ready to receive and to
believe in everything that was worth while. But in the time of the Holy
Prophet of Islam man had traversed all the stages of spiritual evolution
and the time had come for all the truths to be revealed to the world.
(vi) The prophecy speaks of “words which he shall speak in my
name”. This part of the prophecy also was fulfilled in the Holy Prophet
of Islam. He is the only one who spoke in the name of God, because
every Chapter of the revealed Book brought by him begins with the
words: “In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.” This great
sign, duly incorporated in the Quran, also proves that the last stride in the
spiritual advance of humanity, foretold by Moses, was registered with the
advent of the Holy Prophet of Islam.
(vii) The prophecy laid down the important criterion:
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a
word in my name, which I have not commanded him to
speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even
that prophet shall die (Deuteronomy 18:20).
In this verse the world was taught how to distinguish the Promised
One of the prophecy from those who should only pretend to fulfil the
prophecy. It was necessary that a clear criterion should be laid down. The
Promised One had to be charged with the important mission of initiating
the last stage in the spiritual advance of man. If pretenders to this office
should arise, the world would run great risks. To ward off these risks,
God laid down the criterion that a pretender would incur divine
punishment and meet with death and defeat. The Holy Prophet of Islam
laid claim to this office very early in his career, and in the clearest terms.
When he announced his claim, he was friendless and weak. The enemy
was large in numbers and was strong, and he left no stone unturned to
bring to nought his message and his mission and spared no pains to put
an end to his life. Mighty rulers also set themselves against him but it
was they, not the Prophet who suffered discomfiture and disgrace. The
Holy Prophet died full of success. When he died, the whole of Arabia
had declared faith in him; and after his death his first Successors in a few
years spread Islam throughout the whole of the then known world.
Moses was a true Prophet. The prophecy in Deuteronomy was a
revelation from God. But was the Holy Prophet bound to succeed in the
16
way he did? And, were his enemies, who thirsted for his blood, bound to
fail in the way they did? No, neither the Holy Prophet’s success nor the
failure of his enemies was an accident. On the other hand, it seems that
the Quran had in view the terms of the prophecy in Deuteronomy when it
declared before all Arabia and early in the career of the Holy Prophet:
And Allah will protect thee from men (5:68).
Similarly, addressing the enemies of the Prophet, the Quran declared:
He is the Knower of the unseen; and He reveals not
His secrets to any one, except him whom He chooses,
namely a Messenger of His. And then He causes an
escort of guarding angels to go before him and behind
him (72:27-28).
That is to say, the Prophet, having been charged with an important
mission, would not be left unprotected. Enemies would never be able to
kill him.
These verses proved that the success which the Holy Prophet
attained was not an accident of good fortune. He declared early, through
revelations received by him from God and recorded to this day in the
Quran, that God would protect him from the murderous attacks of his
enemies. He warned the world that because he was not a pretender but
the Prophet promised in the prophecy in Deuteronomy, he would not be
killed.
In short, one thousand nine hundred years before the advent of the
Prophet of Islam, Moses declared that his own Law was, in the divine
scheme, not the last Law; that the world was to have a fuller Law later
on; and that, for this, God would send in the Latter Days another
Messenger of His. This Messenger was to teach all truths; it was he who
was to mark the last stage in the spiritual advance of man. The world had
to wait for another book and another Prophet. If, therefore, the Quran and
the Holy Prophet have come after the Bible and after the Prophets Moses
and Jesus, and if they claim to have come from God as guidance to man,
their claim must be treated as just and true. It must be taken as the
fulfilment of ancient prophecies. The revelation of the Quran was not a
gratuitous revelation, a redundance in the presence of those revelations.
Indeed, if the Qur’an had not been revealed, promises made by God
through His Messengers would have gone unfulfilled, and the world
would have become afflicted with doubt and disbelief.

whats all religious fightings about when we have more pressing issues at hand.Hold on to your own faith and belief and it might save u on the last day
[quote][/quote]

good comment on obesrvation.

@Niyi53 [and also experts, nopuqeater and concerned muslims]

Let's get one thing clear: copying-and-pasting your Muslim propaganda in order to wangle Muhammad into Deuteronomy 18 has not worked and WILL NOT work. It does not matter how many redundant arguments from any number of your mullahs you plagiarise, they will not find Muhammad in Deuteronomy at all (unless you really want to identify him as a false prophet - Deuteronomy 18:20).

---

@Niyi53,

Your post above is from on 'Dr. Khalil Ahmad Nasir' - find an example at the Al-Islam page where it appears. In all, he was just another propagandist, and I'll show you how.

Niyi53:

From these passages it is evident that Moses prophesied about a
Law-giving Prophet who was to appear after him, and who was to be
from among the brethren of Israel.

Good. The Ishmaelites are NOT the 'brethren' of Israel in Deuteronomy 18 - scroll up to post #5 and see why that is so.

Niyi53:

That he was to be a Law-giver, and not an ordinary Prophet is obvious from the words “like unto” Moses.

Very good. Muhammad may well be an ordinary prophet, since he was NOT "like unto" Moses in the extraordinary features of Moses' prophetic ministry. A few notes:

[list]
1. Moses spoke face to face with God (Exo. 33:11);
Muhammad NEVER once spoke face to face with Allah

2. Moses spoke in the NAME of God - Jehovah (Exo. 3:14)
Muhammad did NOT once speak in that NAME*

3. Moses was sent with signs, wonders and miracles
(Exo. 4:21 and 34:10-11)
Muhammad did NOT once perform any miracle in the Quran

4. God's presence was with Moses in his ministry (Exo. 33:14)
where was Allah's presence ever once with Muhammad?

5. Moses had the Spirit of God upon him, and by that same Spirit
others were given to prophesy (Num. 11:17 & 25)
where was Allah's spirit put upon Muhammad to prophesy?

6. Moses' face shone with God's glory (Exo. 34:29 & 35);
Jesus' face shone in His transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-3)
where did Muhammad ever shine with any transfiguration
from Allah?[/list]

Of course, there's more.

However, just as Dr. Khalil acknowledges that the Prophet of Deut. 18:15 was "NOT an ordinary Prophet", so it is that Jesus was NOT an "ordinary Prophet" - for those extraordinary things which are listed as identifying Moses' prophetic ministry are also found in the life and ministry of Jesus Christ.

Please consider the points above and let's see where Muhammad qualified in all those references to be "like unto" Moses.

@viaro, i see that you are just guessing, i don't know of any dr. khalid. the person who wrote it is HAZRAT MIRZA TAHIR AHMAD. the title of the book is REVELATION RATIONALITY KNOWLEDGE AND TRUTH. go to alislam library

Niyi53:

@viaro, i see that you are just guessing, i don't know of any dr. khalid. the person who wrote it is HAZRAT MIRZA TAHIR AHMAD. the title of the book is REVELATION RATIONALITY KNOWLEDGE AND TRUTH. go to alislam library

I didn't guess, and when you click on the link I provided, you will find the author as Dr. Khalil Ahmad Nasir. If you go to that page and find it other than that, please let me know - but be assured that I was not guessing.

Now please look carefully at my reply to your duplication of Dr. Khalil Ahmad Nasir's article and oblige me your answers on the issues I raised. The are just 6 points I gave you:

[list]
1. Moses spoke face to face with God (Exo. 33:11);
Muhammad NEVER once spoke face to face with Allah

2. Moses spoke in the NAME of God - Jehovah (Exo. 3:14)
Muhammad did NOT once speak in that NAME*

3. Moses was sent with signs, wonders and miracles
(Exo. 4:21 and 34:10-11)
Muhammad did NOT once perform any miracle in the Quran

4. God's presence was with Moses in his ministry (Exo. 33:14)
where was Allah's presence ever once with Muhammad?

5. Moses had the Spirit of God upon him, and by that same Spirit
others were given to prophesy (Num. 11:17 & 25)
where was Allah's spirit put upon Muhammad to prophesy?

6. Moses' face shone with God's glory (Exo. 34:29 & 35);
Jesus' face shone in His transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-3)
where did Muhammad ever shine with any transfiguration
from Allah?[/list]

Could we read you showing us answers from your Quran to the above points for Muhammad?

Below is what Deuteronomy says about "PROPHET". The Cristians need to read it and discuss whoever by it. We must not forget that the speaker on behalf of God was Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy. Finally, Muslims have never argued that their is no "truth" though "corruption" of some quantity in the Bible; OT and NT.


The Prophet


14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him

@Viaro: « #5 on: April 09, 2010, 04:45 PM »

@balium,
Quote from: balium on April 09, 2010, 12:10 AM
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:

The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".

We don't find Muhammad anywhere in the Law or the Gospels in the Bible.


Quote
1.
MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:


Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

Your arguments for Muhammad in the Bible are a repeat dub of the same things we have trashed out in other threads - see The Bible Confirms The Messengership Of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Perhaps the simply way to answer your thread is to repost my answer from that thread:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The foundation of Deuteronomy 18:18 is the Mosaic covenant given to Isreal as found reiterated in Deuteronomy chapter 5 - "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb", and goes on to show that this covenant was not made with any other nation apart from the Jews. For Deut. 18:18 to have any import, it would have to be based on the covenant which forms its foundation - and that is where we shall try to understand what is meant in that context by 'brethren'.

First, Jews do not receive their prophecies from Arabs - which is why that verse in 18:18 clearly points out.

Second, 'brethren' as used there is one of covenant relationship among all those who are home-born as Jews and can show their pedigree from the families of Israel. Others who lived among them but could not point to any Jewish family ties were called 'sojourners' or 'strangers', not brethren. It is for this reason that two distinct groups were recognized in Israel based upon that covenant: "Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel" (Lev. 20:2).

Third, it is important for anyone at that time to identify their pedigree - otherwise it would be practically impossible for such a person to know where they stood in relation to the covenant life of Israel. Some of these covenant living include:


the feast of the Jews
political and civil life
covenant relationships in prophecy

Where is Muhammad in all that?

But more to the point is that there was only ONE LAW applicable to all who dwelt within Israel (Lev. 24:22); yet, sojourners (that is non-Jewish people dwelling in Israel) could not partake of the feasts of the Jews in exactly the same ceremonial standing as a native Jew. Why? Because when the covenant was made and ratified, it was representing only Jews - "The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day" (Deut. 5:3). So what then does this entail? Look below:

A. Jewish Feasts - Conditions for the Sojourner:


Exodus 12:43-45, 48 ~~ "And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof." . . . "And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof."
Exodus 29:33 - "And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy."
Lev. 22:10 - "There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing."


B. Jewish Political Governance - Strangers Cannot Be Kings


Deuteronomy 17:14-15 ~ "When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me; Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother."


The Law makes a clear case for the following regarding Jews and sojourners/strangers:


(a) a sojourner or stranger (a non-native Jew) could not be a Jewish priest
(b) a sojourner or stranger (a non-native Jew) could not be a Jewish king
(c) a sojourner or stranger (a non-native Jew) could not be a Jewish prophet

And all those 3 elements were pointing to the very Messiah in Jewish prophecies.

You can see that the Law does not confuse a Jew for a non-Jew; and nowhere in the Law is an Arab included in the covenant of the Jews. Muhammad is not one of the Jews, nor could he have been one of their 'brethren' to rise from among them based on that Jewish covenant. Deedat should have pointed all this to you and told you the plain truth - no, he did not; rather he just trailed off wherever he saw 'brethren' and assumed it applied to Muhammad; yet, not even Muhammad recognized the Jews as his 'brethren', and that is no surprise to see why the Arab Muslims hate the Jews to this day.

If the above is your argument against Muhammad (AS), you have argued out Jesus the son of Mary. Show me how Jesus is the "Prophet from the bretheren" as prophethood is calibrated in the Deuteronomy while you a "christian" say to us Jesus is God? Is God a prophet? Did Jesus qualify as a prophet and nothing else, according to you? Moses said "prophet" of God, not "God and Prophet" rolled up in one! Who is bigger to God; Father Abraham (spirtual father I will say, not anybody's real father except his own) or Jacob even as he is renamed Israel? Will all the children of Israel be rewarded with Paradise becausethey are israelites, even as some of hem killed your human God, Jesus whom you are now going to pas off as "prophet", and other people around the world who are not from the children of israel be condemned to hellfire, evn if they are true believers? Now, the prophets who were not children of Israel (Israelites; Children of Jacob), were Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Ishmael, Isaac, and even Jacob who is israel himself.

@Jccross19: « #13 on: April 12, 2010, 11:58 PM »

ahahahahahahahahahahahhhahahahaha muslims illiterate won't let me rest with laugh ahahahahahahah who said that ismai was brother to israel ahahaha or brethren please try to find the mean of that BRETHEREN in your dictionary before you come here to post trash FISRT TRY TO KNOW THE MEANING OF BRETHEREN BEFORE YOU COME HERE.

if cousins cant be brethrens then we want to know what it means brother against brother, brethren against brethren? Ar Israelites not cousins of the MAkkan Arabs, from Ibrahim (AS)?


@viaro; « #19 on: Today at 12:42:57 PM »

Quote from: Niyi53 on Yesterday at 10:25:22 PM
@viaro, i see that you are just guessing, i don't know of any dr. khalid. the person who wrote it is HAZRAT MIRZA TAHIR AHMAD. the title of the book is REVELATION RATIONALITY KNOWLEDGE AND TRUTH. go to alislam library


I didn't guess, and when you click on the link I provided, you will find the author as Dr. Khalil Ahmad Nasir. If you go to that page and find it other than that, please let me know - but be assured that I was not guessing.

Now please look carefully at my reply to your duplication of Dr. Khalil Ahmad Nasir's article and oblige me your answers on the issues I raised. The are just 6 points I gave you:

Quote
1. Moses spoke face to face with God (Exo. 33:11);
Muhammad NEVER once spoke face to face with Allah

(Exodus 33:20) – “But He [God] said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can , Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding, not in the Bible--which is , In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the WordIn John 1:18, the apostle wrote: “No one has seen God at any time. , But Genesis 32:30 records Jacob as saying: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. , No, they have not. The Bible is internally consistent, , The answer is obvious from John's explanation in the first few verses of the ,

And the last 4 verse of Surah Baqarah and th ruling and manner of salah was given to Muhammad (AS) in Isra wa Miraj Night Journey.

2. Moses spoke in the NAME of God - Jehovah (Exo. 3:14)
Muhammad did NOT once speak in that NAME*

When a Yoruba pastor, say adeboye says "ni Oruko Olorun", he must not mean Jehovah, if Bismillahir rRahmanir rRahim is not in the name of Olorun Olore Ofe ala jipele esan in Yoruba. Just assume if Moses was a Nupe man, would he have said jehovah, still? What if he was an englishman, would he not have said "God"?

3. Moses was sent with signs, wonders and miracles
(Exo. 4:21 and 34:10-11)
Muhammad did NOT once perform any miracle in the Quran

I have read on this board a thread where many a miracl was perfomed by Muhammad; three on eyes. Even all th miracles of Moses were all gone and there is no one of them remain in its authentic state. Jesus's miracles do not remain, either. Even their books are always changing. No holy structure contructed by either remains. Jesus has been made to a physical "idol" worshipped. The other day, I saw on PBS's globetrekkers a christian prostrating like a camel with face on the floor, and for a moment the belly on the floor like a Hindu in a Jersalem church claimed to be a place relating to Jesus.
We should not forget that Quran is exactly what it was then, even today, and 3 places of worship Muhammad participated in their constructions. And everything Muhamad Prophesised have been true at the tim they should come true. Jesus said "Comforter" The christians say it is a ghost; So show me how a ghost will speak in audible voice? Sho me what he told you as Jesus have stated he will do? Where is the Book of thr Ghost comforter, if he were to abide forever?

4. God's presence was with Moses in his ministry (Exo. 33:14)
where was Allah's presence ever once with Muhammad?

Allah say in any verses "you Muhammad is a Messenger of Allah". Allah says that whn Allah and His Messneger decide a matter, no believer should have any other opinion, "

5. Moses had the Spirit of God upon him, and by that same Spirit
others were given to prophesy (Num. 11:17 & 25)
where was Allah's spirit put upon Muhammad to prophesy?

Say a single prophesy that did not come true from Muhammad? Allah says "We support you wth Our spirit" Holy Spirit is nothing but an Angel.

6. Moses' face shone with God's glory (Exo. 34:29 & 35);
Jesus' face shone in His transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-3)
where did Muhammad ever shine with any transfiguration
from Allah?

Allah says Islam is light, while others are darkness (Baqarah 257). Tere are many verses of expressing light of Islam. All the companions of the prophet said that his face radiated with light in every Salah, as he turned to face them when the salah ended, no one can look directly at the brilliance. Even today, a muslim should look at the faces of every muslim who they just got out of salah with, after Teslim. The faces are brighter, and softer. I have seen the facesof Jews and Christians after their srvices, no light, excep doom and gloom.

Could we read you showing us answers from your Quran to the above points for Muhammad?

Ahadith and Sunnah explains the verse of Quran.

Re read,

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:

The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".

1. MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:

Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):

i) Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]

ii) Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii) Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)

Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]

iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv) Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

2. It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

3. Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

4. prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the New Testament:

Al-Qur'an Chapter 61 Verse 6:

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.' But when he came to them with clear signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!' "

All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians.

1. John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

2. Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

3. Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the
Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.
Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the
Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise
that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the
Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet
Muhammad (pbuh).

4. Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

The Sprit of Truth, spoken about in this prophecy referes to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James Version.

nopuqeater:

@Viaro: « #5 on: April 09, 2010, 04:45 PM » If the above is your argument against Muhammad (AS), you have argued out Jesus the son of Mary.

How have I done so? And did you notice you were quoting balium's OP instead of my rejoinder to that? On what basis are you using balium's OP to assume that viaro had argued out Jesus?

Show me how Jesus is the "Prophet from the bretheren" as prophethood is calibrated in the Deuteronomy while you a "christian" say to us Jesus is God? Is God a prophet? Did Jesus qualify as a prophet and nothing else, according to you?

Yes, Jesus is DEITY - but, and that is what is taught by the OT prophets. A good place to see this is in Isaiah's prophecies (eg., Isaiah 9:6).

However, the Prophet in Deuteronomy 18 clear shows that Muhammad was not a prophet "like unto" Moses, and I gave you 6 points to see why that is so in my previous replies. We shall have cause to visit them again.

Moses said "prophet" of God, not "God and Prophet" rolled up in one!

Moses simply said 'Prophet' - and we know from that passage that Muhammad was not anything like unto Moses.

Who is bigger to God; Father Abraham (spirtual father I will say, not anybody's real father except his own) or Jacob even as he is renamed Israel?

If you want to discuss Deuteronomy and the prophet, please do so. That passage has nothing to do with who was bigger to God or not. If we are to go into your hadiths, you will find that Muhammad himself acknowledge that he was not better than most of the other prophets or characters in the OT, did you think about that? This is not about who is bigger - for it that is what it was about, we would have simply quoted you the hadith and shown where Muhammad was not better than even Jonah, and all this would have ended.

Will all the children of Israel be rewarded with Paradise becausethey are israelites, even as some of hem killed your human God, Jesus whom you are now going to pas off as "prophet", and other people around the world who are not from the children of israel be condemned to hellfire, evn if they are true believers?

The Deuteronomy passage has nothing to do with rewards in either heaven or hellfire. If that was what it would have been about, then certainly we would indeed have quoted the Quran where Allah has promised to send all muslims to Hellfire, and buttressed the fact from quotations from your Hadiths to see that no Muslims will escape entering into hell according to your Allah.

I wonder why you guys cannot remain focused on the simple subject of a thread until you have gyrated about unrelated issues?

Now, the prophets who were not children of Israel (Israelites; Children of Jacob), were Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Ishmael, Isaac, and even Jacob who is israel himself.

The Deuteronomy passage was not talking about prophets before Moses; rather, it was talking about a prophet who was to come after Moses' time. Please stop making excuses and further gyrations from those who were before Moses.

jayzee_guy:

Re read,

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:

The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".

1. MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:

Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." . . . . .


. . . . . . .

And to what purpose have you repeated the same OP from this thread? I would have hoped that you guys addressed the issues I posted in response - but, of course not - you can't manage that and must always repeat the same propaganda to dribble Muhammad into Deuteronomy. Sorry dude, no Arab was mentioned in that passage in Deuteronomy 18, so go figure.

nopuqeater:

@viaro; « #19 on: Today at 12:42:57 PM » (Exodus 33:20) – “But He [God] said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can , Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding, not in the Bible--which is , In verse 18 it says no one has seen God.

Please, please. I quoted Exodus 33:11, not 33:20 - and the former verse says clearly: ""
^{Exo. 33:11}And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face,
as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp:
but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of
the tabernacle.

To speak "face to face" could be understood as simply meaning "in each other's presence". This is explained, for example, in verse 9 - "And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses".

Further, in Numbers 12:8 we find another example of how God spoke with Moses - "With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold".

Where in all the Quran is either case recorded about Muhammad that allah spoke with him face-to-face, or that he beheld the similitude of Allah?

Since Jesus is the WordIn John 1:18, the apostle wrote: “No one has seen God at any time. , But Genesis 32:30 records Jacob as saying: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. , No, they have not. The Bible is internally consistent, , The answer is obvious from John's explanation in the first few verses of the ,

Think about the "similitude" as has already been shown in Numbers 12:8.

And the last 4 verse of Surah Baqarah and th ruling and manner of salah was given to Muhammad (AS) in Isra wa Miraj Night Journey.

Where is it written in your Quran that Muhammad spoke with Allah face-to-face, or saw Allah at any time, whether in similitude or otherwise? Just where?

When a Yoruba pastor, say adeboye says "ni Oruko Olorun", he must not mean Jehovah, if Bismillahir rRahmanir rRahim is not in the name of Olorun Olore Ofe ala jipele esan in Yoruba. Just assume if Moses was a Nupe man, would he have said jehovah, still? What if he was an englishman, would he not have said "God"?

I do not understand Yoruba, unfortunately. But we know that Muhammad did not come to speak in the NAME of God revealed to Moses, and it seems that he (Muhammad) had said so him in the Quran in Sura 109:1-5 (Pickthal):

[list]Say: O disbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.[/list]

The verses above speak for themselves - Muhammad does not acknowledge the God of whom Moses and the Biblical prophets speak.

I have read on this board a thread where many a miracl was perfomed by Muhammad; three on eyes.

I have read something like that in a thread on this forum - The Greatest Miracle in Islam. You don't want to go there - I know why. . . . there's this guy (batu) that rubbish babs787's miracle of the eye - try one.

Please sir, just let it be. We know that the Quran did not record ANY miracle that Muhammad performed. That thread is full of clear posts that dealt with the supposed miracles of Muhammad which no muslim was able to defend. Start with batu - I'm interested in that one.

Even all th miracles of Moses were all gone and there is no one of them remain in its authentic state.

That is not excuse for the fact that Muhammad did not perform any miracle. Whether they are gone or remain, show me where in the Quran Allah said that Muhammad performed any miracle.

Jesus's miracles do not remain, either. Even their books are always changing. No holy structure contructed by either remains. Jesus has been made to a physical "idol" worshipped. The other day, I saw on PBS's globetrekkers a christian prostrating like a camel with face on the floor, and for a moment the belly on the floor like a Hindu in a Jersalem church claimed to be a place relating to Jesus.

The Quran is NOT a miracle. That much we know. If you have any miracle of Muhammad, show us in the Quran where Allah said so, and save all this PBS excuses.

We should not forget that Quran is exactly what it was then, even today, and 3 places of worship Muhammad participated in their constructions. And everything Muhamad Prophesised have been true at the tim they should come true.

Is the building of a worship center the miracle that Muhammad performed? Dude, you wasting space with these fallacies.

Jesus said "Comforter" The christians say it is a ghost; So show me how a ghost will speak in audible voice? Sho me what he told you as Jesus have stated he will do? Where is the Book of thr Ghost comforter, if he were to abide forever?

The Comforter is the Holy Spirit, also called "the Spirit of truth". John 14:26 15:26. Where is Muhammad referred to as "the Spirit of truth" in your Quran or Hadiths? Where did Allah ever call Muhammad 'the Spirit'?

I have asked that question several times already and all you do is make excuses upon excuses and yet cannot find where Allah called Muhammad 'the Spirit'?

Please end your games - it has not worked for Muhammad and still does not work.

Allah say in any verses "you Muhammad is a Messenger of Allah". Allah says that whn Allah and His Messneger decide a matter, no believer should have any other opinion, "

Did that verse call Muhammad "the Spirit"?

Say a single prophesy that did not come true from Muhammad? Allah says "We support you wth Our spirit" Holy Spirit is nothing but an Angel.

Okay, so Muhammad is NOT the Holy Spirit; so when Jesus said He was sending the Spirit, we know that was not referring to Muhammad. Well done.

Allah says Islam is light, while others are darkness (Baqarah 257). Tere are many verses of expressing light of Islam. All the companions of the prophet said that his face radiated with light in every Salah, as he turned to face them when the salah ended, no one can look directly at the brilliance. Even today, a muslim should look at the faces of every muslim who they just got out of salah with, after Teslim. The faces are brighter, and softer. I have seen the facesof Jews and Christians after their srvices, no light, excep doom and gloom.

Ahadith and Sunnah explains the verse of Quran.

Please keep your excuses to yourself and answer my questions. Thanks.

@Viaro: « #26 on: Yesterday at 05:47:21 PM »

Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 03:30:09 PM
@viaro; « #19 on: Today at 12:42:57 PM » (Exodus 33:20) – “But He [God] said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can , Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding, not in the Bible--which is , In verse 18 it says no one has seen God.

Please, please. I quoted Exodus 33:11, not 33:20 - and the former verse says clearly: ""
Exo. 33:11And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face,
as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp:
but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of
the tabernacle.

To speak "face to face" could be understood as simply meaning "in each other's presence". This is explained, for example, in verse 9 - "And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses".

Further, in Numbers 12:8 we find another example of how God spoke with Moses - "With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold".

Where in all the Quran is either case recorded about Muhammad that allah spoke with him face-to-face, or that he beheld the similitude of Allah?

Thanks for confessing that "face to face" does not mean that the form and dimension of God or His full essence is known to Moses, Jacob, Jesus, etc.
Now about Muhammad; He received the commandment and processof salah, and the revealed last 4 verses of Surah Baqarah. The beginning of the earthly and heavenly journey in a part of one night is in Surah Isra. Continue in Surah Najm, below.

53:13 And he certainly saw him in another descent
(And verily he saw him (Jibril), in his [true] image, another time,

53:14 At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary -
(by the Lote-tree of the Ultimate Boundary, when he was carried on the night journey [up] through the heavens — this [lote-tree] is a nabk thorn-tree [that lies] to the right of the Throne (‘arsh), [the tree] beyond which no angel or any other being pass;)

53:15 Near it is the Garden of Refuge -
(near which is the Garden of the Retreat, to which the angels, the spirits of martyrs and the pious retreat);

53:16 When there covered the Lote Tree that which covered [it].
(when there shrouded the Lote-tree that which shrouded [it], of flying creatures and other [beings] (idh, ‘when’, is operated by ra’āhu, ‘he saw him’),

53:17 The sight [of the Prophet] did not swerve, nor did it transgress [its limit].
(The eye did not swerve, on the part of the Prophet (s), nor did it go beyond [the bounds], that is to say, his gaze did not turn away from the object of vision designated for it, nor did it go beyond that [object] on that night).

53:18 He certainly saw of the greatest signs of his Lord.
(Verily he saw, in it, some of the greatest signs of his Lord, [some of] the most awesome [of these signs]. He thus saw from among the marvels of the Realm (malakūt) a green drape (rafraf) that obscured the [entire] horizon of the heaven and Gabriel with his six hundred wings.)


[uote]Quote
Since Jesus is the WordIn John 1:18, the apostle wrote: “No one has seen God at any time. , But Genesis 32:30 records Jacob as saying: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. , No, they have not. The Bible is internally consistent, , The answer is obvious from John's explanation in the first few verses of the ,

Think about the "similitude" as has already been shown in Numbers 12:8.

[/quote]Did you forget that you argued that Moses did not see God face to face, above? And you are exposed by God now that you are sying John explain that he say God face to face, because he say Jesus? Ignorance. Continue because its fun to watch you and your Bible.


[Quote] Where is it written in your Quran that Muhammad spoke with Allah face-to-face, or saw Allah at any time, whether in similitude or otherwise? Just where?

Read Surah Najm. No one sees Almighty. No one.


[Quote]I do not understand Yoruba, unfortunately. But we know that Muhammad did not come to speak in the NAME of God revealed to Moses, and it seems that he (Muhammad) had said so him in the Quran in Sura 109:1-5 (Pickthal):[/quote]Am sure you do understand your own mother tongue. So what do our people call God in your language, Yahweh like the Israelites, too?

Say: O disbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

The verses above speak for themselves - Muhammad does not acknowledge the God of whom Moses and the Biblical prophets speak.

And in the Quran, Allah calls Moses, Musa a Muslim, a prophet. Now how do you fight against this reality of truth? The coptic Egyptians unde Pharaoh, against Musa were disbelievers. The coptic Christians of Egypt say Allah in their native language. Please tell me if the coptic Christian's Allah is not Jewish Yahweh.


[Quote]I have read something like that in a thread on this forum - The Greatest Miracle in Islam. You don't want to go there - I know why. . . . there's this guy (batu) that rubbish babs787's miracle of the eye - try one.[/quote]I wanna go there. So show me. I dare you. Anyone who has a brain will know that a translation is sometimes done very poorly. I have read the thread and I know from all the arabs I spokewith it was not "pupil od the eye" but "the whole eyeball" that was hanging out of the eye socket. Lets go. If I were to translate a story from my language to your language, I may just do a poor job, considering that I am a tail blazer in the two languages. Think, sir. Its good for you, sometimes.

Please sir, just let it be. We know that the Quran did not record ANY miracle that Muhammad performed. That thread is full of clear posts that dealt with the supposed miracles of Muhammad which no muslim was able to defend. Start with batu - I'm interested in that one.

Have you read about what Allah says about the Moon has been split? Read it in Vere 1 of Surah Qamar (The Moon).


[Quote]That is not excuse for the fact that Muhammad did not perform any miracle. Whether they are gone or remain, show me where in the Quran Allah said that Muhammad performed any miracle.[/quote]again, Surah Qamar. And it is not less than a huge Miracle that Quran is not in versions, revisions, editions, remaining in authentic Arabic, if you know what I mean? Look into your Bibles.


[Quote]The Quran is NOT a miracle. That much we know. If you have any miracle of Muhammad, show us in the Quran where Allah said so, and save all this PBS excuses.[/quote]You dont know jack. Allahu Akbar. Have you been unattentive? Read Surah Qamar.


[Quote]Is the building of a worship center the miracle that Muhammad performed? Dude, you wasting space with these fallacies.[/quote]Show me the blind man Jesus restored his sight, while Muhmmad performed the same type miracle 3 times. We still have th Moon and the Nasa folks supported a possible stress on this celestral body. It is available for everyone to read.


[Quote]The Comforter is the Holy Spirit, also called "the Spirit of truth". John 14:26 15:26. Where is Muhammad referred to as "the Spirit of truth" in your Quran or Hadiths? Where did Allah ever call Muhammad 'the Spirit'?[/quote]Prophet is described as spirit, vis a vis good spirit as prophet of God, and even teacher: For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book Rev 22.18

Accordingly, we hold the further OPINION that the Biblical function of today's prophets is simply to preach and teach from the word of God -- His Bible But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 1 Cor 14.3

Beware of False Prophets

In the verses alongside (and in many other Bible verses not quoted herein) God has stringently warned us that there are FALSE prophets.
And the Lord said to me, "The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart." Jer 14.14

(Jesus said, ) "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many." Mt 24.11
God has given the following guidelines to protect us from false prophets,

If someone purports to speak as a prophet from God, the church should assemble so as to judge the validity of that prophet's words, Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 1 Cor 14.29

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4.1
A false prophet can be recognized by the fact that he or she yields bad fruit -- distrust, discord, confusion, wrangling, gossip, useless disputes, and divisions within the church
(Jesus said, ) "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit." Mt 7.15-17
A prophet's words are false if they are inconsistent with, or contradict, God's Bible. (This is the ACID TEST. God does not contradict His Bible.)
Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; they speak a vision of their own heart, not from the mouth of the Lord." Jer 23.16


I have asked that question several times already and all you do is make excuses upon excuses and yet cannot find where Allah called Muhammad 'the Spirit'?

Please end your games - it has not worked for Muhammad and still does not work.

[/quote]Read the bolded to consider wht Jesus said about True prophet/Spirit from God.
I also left the other verses of revelation, and other Bblical portions to show that Jesus didnt mention "Church" so if Jesus is correct, the Bible is wrong and Church is definitely wrong. Who is fooling who.


[Quote]Did that verse call Muhammad "the Spirit"?

it is the bible that calls prophet 'spirit'. so swallow it.


[Quote]Okay, so Muhammad is NOT the Holy Spirit; so when Jesus said He was sending the Spirit, we know that was not referring to Muhammad. Well done.[/quote]yet the invinsible, inaudible holy spirit is not the 'comforter'. your proof.


[Quote]
Allah says Islam is light, while others are darkness (Baqarah 257). Tere are many verses of expressing light of Islam. All the companions of the prophet said that his face radiated with light in every Salah, as he turned to face them when the salah ended, no one can look directly at the brilliance. Even today, a muslim should look at the faces of every muslim who they just got out of salah with, after Teslim. The faces are brighter, and softer. I have seen the facesof Jews and Christians after their srvices, no light, excep doom and gloom.

Ahadith and Sunnah explains the verse of Quran.

Please keep your excuses to yourself and answer my questions. Thanks.[/quote]read above. i answered every question. i ask you to make holy spirit, unseen, unheard, etc, fit being the comforter? and while you are at it, show me his recorded words, his reminding, his book, etc. how does he abide forever when there is no record of his activities, teaching, etc?

mr viaro if you cant show me the records of how holy spirit fulfilled so quickly the functions of Comforter, i will not espond to you empty rhetorics. i truly think most of the christians are shallow, spiritually lazy, the reason they cop out and say Jesus is responsibile for their salvation, so they calh him God which makes them even more foolish for God is never going to make Himself among humans. Never.

nopuqeater:

mr viaro if you cant show me the records of how holy spirit fulfilled so quickly the functions of Comforter, i will not espond to you empty rhetorics. i truly think most of the christians are shallow, spiritually lazy, the reason they cop out and say Jesus is responsibile for their salvation, so they calh him God which makes them even more foolish for God is never going to make Himself among humans. Never.

The droll fool here is none other than yourself. In post #9 I've outlined from John's Gospel the very meaning of 'the Comforter' [paracletos] who is 'the Holy Spirit', the same who is called 'the Spirit of Truth'. I have also asked you guys to show me where Allah ever referred to Muhammad as the Spirit or Holy Spirit or Spirit of Truth in your Quran or Hadiths - did you quote me ANY VERSE where that appears in your Quran or Hadith?

Having failed to find where Allah ever referred to Muhammad as such, you crawl in here to threw your insolence as substitute for sanity. Just get lost and drink all the dust in Arabia. Dunce. Next time learn to discuss simply by answering questions straight as requested, instead of failing to do so and then displaying your idiocy on the forum.
____________

nopuqeater:

@Viaro: « #26 on: Yesterday at 05:47:21 PM » Thanks for confessing that "face to face" does not mean that the form and dimension of God or His full essence is known to Moses, Jacob, Jesus, etc.

Whatever you have made out from "face-to-face" in my explanation, where does your Quran say that Muhammad spoke face-to-face with Allah?

You ran to the hadiths, quoting irrelevant verses where Muhammad saw lote-tree and all sorts, and NONE OF THEM shows where Muhammad ever saw Allah or even spoke 'face-to-face' with Allah! You sound very desperate to show how foolish you can be - keep it up.

nopuqeater:
53:13 And he certainly saw him in another descent
(And verily he saw him (Jibril), in his [true] image, another time,

Is Jibril the same as Allah? Does that tell us that Muhammad saw Allah? Does that tell us that Muhammad spoke 'face-to-face' with Allah? Why are these tales not in your Quran, and yet you're running around to draw on Muhammad seeing (Jibril) - does (Jibril) now equate to Allah?

I have news for you: in your Quran, Muhammad himself deneied ever speaking face-to-face with Allah - 'It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills' (Quran 42:51).

And the hadith also attest to the fact that Muhammad never spoke face-to-face with Allah, nor did he see Allah at any time:

[list]Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 378:
Narrated Masruq:

I said to 'Aisha, "O Mother! Did Prophet Muhammad see his Lord?" Aisha said, "What you have said makes my hair stand on end ! Know that if somebody tells you one of the following three things, he is a liar:

Whoever tells you that Muhammad saw his Lord, is a liar."

Then Aisha recited the Verse:

'No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Courteous Well-Acquainted with all things.' (6.103) 'It is not fitting for a human being that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration or from behind a veil.' (42.51) 'Aisha further said, "And whoever tells you that the Prophet knows what is going to happen tomorrow, is a liar." She then recited:

'No soul can know what it will earn tomorrow.' (31.34) She added: "And whoever tell you that he concealed (some of Allah's orders), is a liar." Then she recited: 'O Apostle! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord, ' (5.67) 'Aisha added. "But the Prophet saw Gabriel in his true form twice."[/list]

Your desperate attempts to quote all sorts of quotations for Muhammad seeing Allah is a sham. Muhammad did NOT see Allah or speak 'face-to-face' with Allah - your Quran said so; your hadith confirm it many times over! And oh, Gabriel is NOT Allah!

I am quite satisfied that Aisha said that anyone trying to suggest that Muhammad ever saw or spoke 'face-to-face' with Allah is a liar. So, Mr. nopuqeater, please end your lying games - or continue to argue against Aisha and make her words false!

And in the Quran, Allah calls Moses, Musa a Muslim, a prophet. Now how do you fight against this reality of truth? The coptic Egyptians unde Pharaoh, against Musa were disbelievers. The coptic Christians of Egypt say Allah in their native language. Please tell me if the coptic Christian's Allah is not Jewish Yahweh.

I have cited Quran 109 where Muhammad himself denied worshipping the same God as the Biblical prophets, so what's all this excuse you're whipping up?

The funny thing I observe in your rejoinders is that, aside from your desperations, you just do not know how to cover your lies. So you come back with more desperate stories and then try to confuse yourself all the more on the simple things I have asked you.

I wanna go there. So show me. I dare you. Anyone who has a brain will know that a translation is sometimes done very poorly. I have read the thread and I know from all the arabs I spokewith it was not "pupil od the eye" but "the whole eyeball" that was hanging out of the eye socket. Lets go. If I were to translate a story from my language to your language, I may just do a poor job, considering that I am a tail blazer in the two languages. Think, sir. Its good for you, sometimes.

Fine, I take up your challenge - let's have a go at it. Show me any verse in your Quran where Allah said that Muhammad performed that miracle of or on the eye. Let's start from your Quran - because if Allah knows all things, and he certainly knew Muhammad and his activities, he should also have known about Muhammad's miracle of the eye. Please show me where that is recorded in Allah's knowledge in his book - the Quran.

Have you read about what Allah says about the Moon has been split? Read it in Vere 1 of Surah Qamar (The Moon).

Did Allah say that Muhammad split the moon in Sura 54:1?

again, Surah Qamar. And it is not less than a huge Miracle that Quran is not in versions, revisions, editions, remaining in authentic Arabic, if you know what I mean? Look into your Bibles.

I have shown already that your Quran was REDACTED and this is NOT a secret - the third Caliph Uthman revised the Quran and burnt all other copies, we all know. Not only so, there are verses in the Quran that are not there because they are missing and/or cancelled - all these I have shown in this thread and no Muslim has ever produced any of those verses in the Quran you read today. Refresher:

[list]

(2) I gave specific examples of verses which Muslims in Muhammad's time were reciting as PART OF THE REVEALED verses from Allah, verses which no one had any authority to excuse away from the Quran:
¬ "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Stoning"
¬ "The Cancelled Verse(s) of the Martyrs of Badr"
¬ "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Suckling"
What those verses contained are found in the SAHIH hadiths I quoted; but they are NOT found ANYWHERE in the Quran. If you have any Quran verses where they are found, please just simply post the verses and let's read for ourselves. We are not interested in any arguments and excuses you make - ONLY POST THE VERSES and let us read for ourselves. Period.

[/list]

The cheap excuse you give about the Quran you read today are all fallacies. Keep dribbling here and there and playing the desperate soul you are.

nopuqeater:

Show me the blind man Jesus restored his sight, while Muhmmad performed the same type miracle 3 times. We still have th Moon and the Nasa folks supported a possible stress on this celestral body. It is available for everyone to read.

This is where it is recorded in your Quran that Jesus healed the blind:

[list]Sura 3:49 -
And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe.[/list]

[list]see also Quran 5:110[/list]

And your verse in Allah's Quran that Muhammad did the same is . . . . ?!?


Mr. nopuqeater, it's either you don't understand simple English sentences or you're here desperately posting just anything you like to fill this page and help your al-taqiyya so other Muslims like you can be pampered. The simple questions I asked about Muhammad seeing and speaking face-to-face with Allah stands unanswered - the Quran categorically denies it, your Hadiths calls people like you liars for attempting desperately to say Muhammad did so. Should you desire to continue lying, the thread is all yours - continue doing so, for nothing has ever changed about people like you.