What is it with prayers and God's will, What is it with God being mysterious? It seems people just love bandying things that makes no sense even to themselves. The God's will hypothesis and God work's in a mysterious ways hypothesis are examples of such. . . .I will begin with the God's will hypothesis . . . . . Some thing personal just happened that has me wondering why people make endless excuses to themselves instead of just accepting reality as it is. . . .You hear answers like "Never mind how God responds to your prayer. May his will always be done".

If that is the case then why bother praying at all? If people believe that their God is going to do whatever he's going to do, what's the point? Are people praying to their God so that he might change his mind about his already perfect will with regards to their lives since they believe their God has a plan and exerts his will with regards to everything about them?. . . .

What is this elusive will of God that people keep banying around? Well since God's will isn't any body's concern, or at least, unknowable to any body. Why pray to God since he has his will that people believe is perfect and he alone can has the right to do what ever he wants with his will? Are people trying to change the will of an already perfect God when they pray to their God for help or protection against danger or a good fortune for example?. . . . .

The next one is that God is mysterious. . . . .I love it when people pull out the "unknowable" card. You hear it all the time as a response when they are being questioned and cannot produce a valid retort. Its always used to explain absurdity away. . . .

Atheist: If X is true, then how can God exist? Or if Y is true then why does God not do Z since according to you God is all good, all loving, all powerful, all knowing etc
Theist: God works in mysterious ways! God is unknowable!
Atheist: But you just offered me a 1500 page book which you say is the word of God in addition to 2 pamphlets, and a 5-disc DVD set with "everything I need to know about God!" You sure claim to know quite a bit about this "unknowable" being.
Theist: God is mysterious and I hope he opens your eyes to the truth so that you get to know him through his words.
Atheist: You just said God is mysterious and unknowable now you are telling me that I can know God through his word.
Theist: Yes God is mysterious and unknowable but you can know him through his words, read the books and watch the DVD to know God's will and plan for us.
Atheist: God is mysterious and unknowable but I can get to know him through is words eh . . . .Runs away laughing at the mental gymnastics and confusion. . . . . .

Where is noetic?

Life itself is mysterious. That is a fact. Our very existence on a blue planet circling a red star in the vastness of space is a huge mystery. So it should be no problem that God is said to be mysterious.

Now all this mystery does nothing to stop you and I from knowing that gravity exists, or that water consists of Hydrigen and Oxygen.

This means that although the sum of all things is mysterious, there are still many things that can be known.

Capisce?

I find it ridiculous when people talk about Gods word, God''s love, God's plans and how God operates yet maintain that God is unknownable. . . . . .Isn't that speaking from both sides of your mouth?. . .

I just explained that already. It seems you do not understand what I wrote. The fact that something is a mystery does not mean that you may not know or understand some aspects of it.

Another example: no one may ever attain a 100% understanding of any other person. Indeed each individual never reaches a stage where he understands everything about himself 100%. This does not mean that we may not know things about people. We may know their plans, their character, their inclinations, their strengths and their weaknesses without ever understanding the totality of who they are. This is very simple.

In the same way, God is the ultimate mystery: the totality of God remains unfathomable: nonetheless much about God can be known by reading the book of life. The book of life is everything you see around you.

There is nothing I see around me that points to any God, I see people and what they have created(cultures, systems, societies etc), plants, animals, rivers, mountains, natural phenomena, etc etc etc. . . . . .I don't see anything that points to any God. . . .Unless if you are saying that your God is nature and some of the things that men created . . . .

mazaje:

What is it with prayers and God's will,  What is it with God being mysterious? It seems people just love bandying things that makes no sense even to themselves. The God's will hypothesis and God work's in a mysterious ways hypothesis are examples of such. . . .I will begin with the God's will hypothesis . . . . .  Some thing personal just happened that has me wondering why people make endless excuses to themselves instead of just accepting reality as it is. . . .You hear answers like "Never mind how God responds to your prayer. May his will always be done".

The will of God is the plan of God. The will of God can be divided into two
A. God's general plan for all His creatures: that  includes the many "universes" in existence.
B. God's plan for our individual life as believers or non-believers.

Plan A is generally depicted in the bible as End-time prophecies. There is however a "problem" with plan B, because man also has freewill. God states emphatically His plans for us (individually) its a good and perfect plan to give us a hope, to give us abundant life, to make us prosper in all of our endeavours i.e mentally, spiritually, physically and emotionally. While the will of God (B) is in existence, it is also by the ordinance of God subject to man's freewill. It was by free will that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and saw the wrath of God, it was by freewill that persons in the generation of Noah refused to enter the ark or believe his gospel for repentance. It was by freewill that people chose to believe John the Baptist and get baptised by him.

The plan B of God for all men is to come to the saving knowledge of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. He however gave us the liberty or freewill to come or not to.
Can one know the will of God concerning ones life? Yes we can. through the scriptures and revelations from God.
In my own case, I know the will of God concerning my life which has been revealed to me through several visions and revelations. I do not necessarily agree with the plan of God for me, but as an humble and obedient servant, I choose to let the will of God on me prevail. Just like Christ did and gave up His life at the will of the Father.

Now let us talk about ur understanding of the will of God. You were referring to personal incidences that happens in a persons life. First mazaje, u need to know that Christianity is not about going to church but a relationship with the Father. And in this relationship God ALONE is the BOSS. Many self-confessed Christians attempt to go into a relationship with God on an equal footing with God or as an adviser to God. This is heresy. For we know that faith is what makes a man pleasing in the sight of God. Faith is synonymous to obedience, because by obeying the impossible commandments of an invisible God, u have exercised hope and faith in the immortal. faith is obedience. . . and whosoever u obey is ur boss.

If that is the case then why bother praying at all? If people believe that their God is going to do whatever he's going to do, what's the point? Are people praying to their God so that he might change his mind about his already perfect will with regards to their lives since they believe their God has a plan and exerts his will with regards to everything about them?. . . .

Mazaje, I have repeatedly told u that u dont understand the meaning of prayer. Prayer is not an incantation u make to a magician for a request. Prayer is an incessant communication between two persons in a relationship (man and God). Prayer is a connection line between these two persons.

Take for instance, I as a person, I do pray a lot. but what are the things I pray for? 90% of the time I just worship, praise and meditate in His words. 9% of the time I pray for others, and the remaining 1% I pray for myself. Infact I hardly pray for myself or make any demands or requests for myself from God unless He asks me to.
why do I not make requests from God? Its not that I dont have personal impending challenges, I do have serious challenges, but whenever I look around I see God working through this challenges to establish me as the general He has called into His kingdom. I know for a fact that no single event happens in my life outside of the knowledge of God, So I always have a hard time making a request to God.

It is in lieu of the above that I realised that the most effective prayer a person can ever utter to God is the Lords prayer that Jesus taught His disciples.

What is this elusive will of God that people keep banying around? Well since God's will isn't any body's concern, or at least, unknowable to any body. Why pray to God since he has his will that people believe is perfect and he alone can has the right to do what ever he wants with his will? Are people trying to change the will of an already perfect God when they pray to their God for help or protection against danger or a good fortune for example?. . . . .

ur understanding of prayer is flawed. Regardless of the will of God, prayer along with faith and holiness are  the oil the lubricates our relationship with God.

The next one is that God is mysterious. . . . .I love it when people pull out the "unknowable" card. You hear it all the time as a response when they are being questioned and cannot produce a valid retort. Its always used to explain absurdity away. . . .

Atheist: If X is true, then how can God exist? Or if Y is true then why does God not do Z since according to you God is all good, all loving, all powerful, all knowing etc
Theist: God works in mysterious ways! God is unknowable!
Atheist: But you just offered me a 1500 page book which you say is the word of God in addition to 2 pamphlets, and a 5-disc DVD set with "everything I need to know about God!" You sure claim to know quite a bit about this "unknowable" being.
Theist: God is mysterious and I hope he opens your eyes to the truth so that you get to know him through his words.
Atheist: You just said God is mysterious and unknowable now you are telling me that I can know God through his word.
Theist: Yes God is mysterious and unknowable but you can know him through his words, read the books and watch the DVD to know God's will and plan for us.
Atheist: God is mysterious and unknowable but I can get to know him through is words eh . . . .Runs away laughing at the mental gymnastics and confusion. . . . . .

Lets use real life instances and stop using impracticable illustrations. what is X? and what is Y? and what is Z?

where is mazaje?

mazaje:

There is nothing I see around me that points to any God, I see people and what they have created(cultures, systems, societies etc), plants, animals, rivers, mountains, natural phenomena, etc etc etc. . . . . .I don't see anything that points to any God. . . .Unless if you are saying that your God is nature and some of the things that men created . . . .

It is very well and fine if you do not see anything about you that points to God. Although I am tempted to add that the intricacy of the mental faculty that permits you to have thoughts (i:e your brain) is a staggering pointer.

Nonetheless let us frame it this way:

Everything you see around you is a pointer to the nature of - -> - - > - - > [Whatever caused things to exist]

Just as: the fruits borne by a tree are a pointer to the nature of - -> - - > - - > - - > - - > - - > - - > [The Tree]

You are at liberty to define the words contained in the brackets to suit your worldview. I define it as God. You may define it as a prebiotic soup, or a singularity, or the big bang, or Alex Ferguson. You are entitled. 

One thing however remains certain: whatever the truth really is will not be changed by your views or my views. If Alex Ferguson is the creator of the Universe, no amount of disbelief will change that fact. Just as surely as if there is a God that created all that exists: no amount of disbelief will change that fact. Likewise if the universe emerged purposelessly from a singularity without intelligent design, no amount of belief in a God will change that fact.

Deep Sight:

It is very well and fine if you do not see anything about you that points to God. Although I am tempted to add that the intricacy of the mental faculty that permits you to have thoughts (i:e your brain) is a staggering pointer.

Nonetheless let us frame it this way:

Everything you see around you is a pointer to the nature of - -> - - > - - > [Whatever caused things to exist]

Just as: the fruits borne by a tree are a pointer to the nature of - -> - - > - - > - - > - - > - - > - - > [The Tree]

You are at liberty to define the words contained in the brackets to suit your worldview. I define it as God. You may define it as a prebiotic soup, or a singularity, or the big bang, or Alex Ferguson. You are entitled.

Typical deist arguments. . . . . .I'll be back to address them later. . . .

noetic16:

where is mazaje?

I dey here ohh. . .Will be back to address your rejoinders later gat to go out now. . . .

noetic16:

The will of God is the plan of God. The will of God can be divided into two
A. God's general plan for all His creatures: that  includes the many "universes" in existence.
B. God's plan for our individual life as believers or non-believers.

I just don't get this. . . .Since you claim to know the will and plan of your God why then do you still say that God is mysterious or why do some people say that their God is unknown?. . . .Where did you get the idea that the christian God has plans for the many universe in existence?. . . . .As I have said when it comes to God people just self project themselves as God and continue to make things up as they go. . . . . .

Plan A is generally depicted in the bible as End-time prophecies. There is however a "problem" with plan B, because man also has freewill. God states emphatically His plans for us (individually) its a good and perfect plan to give us a hope, to give us abundant life, to make us prosper in all of our endeavours i.e mentally, spiritually, physically and emotionally. While the will of God (B) is in existence, it is also by the ordinance of God subject to man's freewill. It was by free will that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and saw the wrath of God, it was by freewill that persons in the generation of Noah refused to enter the ark or believe his gospel for repentance. It was by freewill that people chose to believe John the Baptist and get baptised by him.

The free will argument again? There are so many parts of the bible that clearly states that there is nothing like free will, no?

The plan B of God for all men is to come to the saving knowledge of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. He however gave us the liberty or freewill to come or not to.
Can one know the will of God concerning ones life? Yes we can. through the scriptures and revelations from God.
In my own case, I know the will of God concerning my life which has been revealed to me through several visions and revelations. I do not necessarily agree with the plan of God for me, but as an humble and obedient servant, I choose to let the will of God on me prevail. Just like Christ did and gave up His life at the will of the Father.

Personal revelations?. . . .Interesting

Mazaje, I have repeatedly told u that u dont understand the meaning of prayer. Prayer is not an incantation u make to a magician for a request. Prayer is an incessant communication between two persons in a relationship (man and God). Prayer is a connection line between these two persons.

How do two people communicate?. . . .How do two people connect?

Take for instance, I as a person, I do pray a lot. but what are the things I pray for? 90% of the time I just worship, praise and meditate in His words. 9% of the time I pray for others, and the remaining 1% I pray for myself. Infact I hardly pray for myself or make any demands or requests for myself from God unless He asks me to.
why do I not make requests from God? Its not that I dont have personal impending challenges, I do have serious challenges, but whenever I look around I see God working through this challenges to establish me as the general He has called into His kingdom. I know for a fact that no single event happens in my life outside of the knowledge of God, So I always have a hard time making a request to God.

What then is wrong with people that pray 50 percent for protection and spend the other 50 percent worshiping?. . . . .

your understanding of prayer is flawed. Regardless of the will of God, prayer along with faith and holiness are  the oil the lubricates our relationship with God.

You have stated this so many time without showing how my understanding is flawed. . . .

Lets use real life instances and stop using impracticable illustrations. what is X? and what is Y? and what is Z?

Here is one, if God is all powerful and can do all things as the bible claims, why didnt he create a land that was flowing with milk and honey for the Jews in the bible? Why did he have to tell them to kill others and steal their land that was flowing with milk and honey? When such questions are asked you hear people saying that God's ways or plans are mysterious and he can not be known. . . .

mazaje:

I just don't get this. . . .Since you claim to know the will and plan of your God why then do you still say that God is mysterious or why do some people say that their God is unknown?. . . .Where did you get the idea that the christian God has plans for the many universe in existence?. . . . .As I have said when it comes to God people just self project themselves as God and continue to make things up as they go. . . . . .

1. when did I use the word "mysterious" in describing God? Those who describe God as mysterious, do so based on their knowledge or lack of knowledge of Him. I would say that "there are mysteries of God" and NOT that "God is mysterious"

2. If the basis of this thread is to debate the "will of God" . . .the least u can do is to "assume on this thread" that God created all things in existence. If so, the basis of my statement that God has a plan for His creations (including the many universes) is the fact that there is absolutely nothing that suggests a purposeless or accidental creation.

The free will argument again? There are so many parts of the bible that clearly states that there is nothing like free will, no?

Lets just say . . . u dont understand the bible.

What then is wrong with people that pray 50 percent for protection and spend the other 50 percent worshiping?. . . . .

Those who pray 50% for protection are IMO largely confused and do not know the personality of God whom they profess. And what do u mean by worship? is worship acceptable in the face of incessant unrepentant sins?

You have stated this so many time without showing how my understanding is flawed. . . .

maybe u should read my posts again

Here is one, if God is all powerful and can do all things as the bible claims, why didnt he create a land that was flowing with milk and honey for the Jews in the bible? Why did he have to tell them to kill others and steal their land that was flowing with milk and honey? When such questions are asked you hear people saying that God's ways or plans are mysterious and he can not be known. . . .

here we go again . . . if u a creature has freewill, how much more ur creator? God is at liberty to do what pleases Him.

In answering ur question . . . Since by ur post u believe that God created all lands . . then u should also believe Him when He said He made such for the children of Israel and not for aliens. War is the only language some people understand.