djon78:


What I imply is those that didn't hear the gospel like our forefathers, and those in our present world who never heard about Jesus.

The issue is those that never heard about Jesus

But if you have heard of Jesus and never accepted Him, then you have rejected life.


People need to understand that it is only in Jesus that there is life.
Jesus was the Lamb that took away the sins of the world.
God judges sin. But the judgement that was supposed to come to the world, Jesus took it as the Lamb.
Jesus tasted death for all that believe in Him.
If you believe in Jesus that he died for your sins, then when you stop breathing you will never taste death because Jesus tasted death for you.


People don't know the gravity of what Jesus did for us. When you understand it, you will even live above Sin. You will fall deeply in love with Jesus.

If that is how it works then Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist and non Christians who heard the gospel are all going to hell.

That is over 4.5 billion people to perish, Jesus death was pretty useless after all.

Technically, heaven is for Christians only.

But do you realize not everyone can be Christian.
It is impossible.

Environment and circumstances influences one's religion.

If Arabs colonized the entire Nigeria, you would be a devout Muslim.

So you can't really blame those non Christians, can you.

You are no different from them.

Your God sending people to eternal punishment just because they were not Christian is very unfair, don't you think.

VictorRomanov:


So you re saying for some, It is not faith or belief in Jesus that will save them, but their works? Right?

I said they will be judged by there conscience.
Our conscience is where moral code is written.
And they couldn't believe because they did not hear, it is in Romans 10.


Salvation comes from believing that Jesus died for your sin. That he paid the price for your sins.
The only effective remedy for the sins of the world was the blood of Jesus.

Our works on our own are filthy rags.
It is Jesus that makes the difference
The righteousness of man is worthless
But being the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus is what makes the difference.

It is Jesus who makes the difference. So our works cannot justify us.
But rather depending on the life of Christ to live right justifies us

BlackManta:


If that is how it works then Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist and non Christians who heard the gospel are all going to hell.

That is over 4.5 billion people to perish, Jesus death was pretty useless after all.

Technically, heaven is for Christians only.

But do you realize not everyone can be Christian.
It is impossible.

Environment and circumstances influences one's religion.

If Arabs colonized the entire Nigeria, you would be a devout Muslim.

So you can't really blame those non Christians, can you.

You are no different from them.

Your God sending people to eternal punishment just because they were not Christian is very unfair, don't you think.

There is no other name given under heaven where men will saved except the name of Jesus.

People always have opportunity
There are a lot of Muslims that have personal revelation of Jesus and believed.

Do you know that there are many secret disciples of Jesus in the Islamic world? As far as Saudi Arabia. There is one Christian Chanel on television that they wrote from the palace of king of Saudi Arabia that they receive the Chanel and hear the gospel on the television. Likewise in India and many parts of the world.


The gospel is spreading all around the world.
Many are believing and accepting Jesus secretly

BlackManta:




Your God sending people to eternal punishment just because they were not Christian is very unfair, don't you think.

God is a God of justice.

He sent his Son Jesus to pay the price.
He was scourged, whipped, nailed and crucified.
Jesus paid the price for humanities sin with His own life.

So when people reject God's only remedy for salvation. What will be another remedy?

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD.

It is only by His mercies that we are not consumed

djon78:



I said they will be judged by there conscience.
Our conscience is where moral code is written.
And they couldn't believe because they did not hear, it is in Romans 10.


Salvation comes from believing that Jesus died for your sin. That he paid the price for your sins.
The only effective remedy for the sins of the world was the blood of Jesus.

Our works on our own are filthy rags.
It is Jesus that makes the difference
The righteousness of man is worthless
But being the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus is what makes the difference.

It is Jesus who makes the difference. So our works cannot justify us.
But rather depending on the life of Christ to live right justifies us

I don't know if you understand the bolded. I am trying to help you see the application or perhaps the implication.

Let's say one of my forefathers like 10 generations behind me, married two wives, because his conscience and tradition allowed him to. He sacrificed to idols and saw nothing wrong with it because his conscience and his traditional urged him to do so. You are saying that since he didn't hear about Jesus (who is the only way to salvation) that he would be judged as fit for heaven because his conscience was clear? Yes or No

If it is yes, that means his works which were allowed by his conscience enabled him to have salvation and not the blood of Jesus. Isn't it?

It's a simple yes or no answer.

djon78:




There is no other name given under heaven where men will saved except the name of Jesus.

People always have opportunity
There are a lot of Muslims that have personal revelation of Jesus and believed.

Do you know that there are many secret disciples of Jesus in the Islamic world? As far as Saudi Arabia. There is one Christian Chanel on television that they wrote from the palace of king of Saudi Arabia that they receive the Chanel and hear the gospel on the television. Likewise in India and many parts of the world.


The gospel is spreading all around the world.
Many are believing and accepting Jesus secretly

What is the ratio of Muslims converted to devout Muslims in the whole world

For every 1 non Christian you converted there are a 100 more devout Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus who will never leave their religion.

Do you know how difficult it is for one to abandon the religion of his parents and society.

For every major religion one grows up with there is 95% chance of sticking with that religion till death.

If you were raised in a Muslim family in a Muslim country like Saudi Arabia, what are are the chances of you leaving Islam for another religion

It seems you don't understand how religion works.
You are underestimating the sentimental value of religion to one's life.

That is why you must never castigate a man for not leaving his religion.
You sef never leave your religion, so there is no need judging a man or writing him off to eternal punishment simply because he didn't convert.

djon78:



God is a God of justice.

He sent his Son Jesus to pay the price.
He was scourged, whipped, nailed and crucified.
Jesus paid the price for humanities sin with His own life.

So when people reject God's only remedy for salvation. What will be another remedy?

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD.

It is only by His mercies that we are not consumed

How is eternity in hell fire a worthy punishment for sin.

How does finite offences befit infinite punishment

VictorRomanov:


I don't know if you understand the bolded. I am trying to help you see the application or perhaps the implication.

Let's say one of my forefathers like 10 generations behind me, married two wives, because his conscience and tradition allowed him to. He sacrificed to idols and saw nothing wrong with it because his conscience and his traditional urged him to do so. You are saying that since he didn't hear about Jesus (who is the only way to salvation) that he would be judged as fit for heaven because his conscience was clear? Yes or No

If it is yes, that means his works which were allowed by his conscience enabled him to have salvation and not the blood of Jesus. Isn't it?

It's a simple yes or no answer.

The reason he will be judged according to his conscience was because he did not hear about Jesus

So God being a God of justice judges him based on moral code like did he kill, commit adultery, steal etc.


But for those that heard of Jesus, God judges them based on Jesus, that is why Romans 8 vs 1 says that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

BlackManta:


What is the ratio of Muslims converted to devout Muslims in the whole world

For every 1 non Christian you converted there are a 100 more devout Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus who will never leave their religion.

Do you know how difficult it is for one to abandon the religion of his parents and society.

For every major religion one grows up with there is 95% chance of sticking with that religion till death.

If you were raised in a Muslim family in a Muslim country like Saudi Arabia, what are are the chances of you leaving Islam for another religion

It seems you don't understand how religion works.
You are underestimating the sentimental value of religion to one's life.

That is why they are secret disciples of Jesus.
Some of them that opened up may even lose there life.
And there are very many of them that believed
Very many but secretly

See if you have encounter with the resurrected Christ your life will never be the same again

Jesus is very real
He is not a fairy story

djon78:




The reason he will be judged according to his conscience was because he did not hear about Jesus

So God being a God of justice judges him based on moral code like did he kill, commit adultery, steal etc.


But for those that heard of Jesus, God judges them based on Jesus, that is why Romans 8 vs 1 says that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

So if my ancestors partook in killing of twins, they will go to heaven.

After all killing of twins was a moral code in that society.
Those who did it saw nothing wrong in it.
It was practice to purge the society of evil and please the gods.

djon78:


That is why they are secret disciples of Jesus.
Some of them that opened up may even lose there life.
And there are very many of them that believed
Very many but secretly

See if you have encounter with the resurrected Christ your life will never be the same again

Jesus is very real
He is not a fairy story

What is the ratio of secret disciples to devout Muslims.

In every 100,000,000 Muslims how many would have encounter with Jesus and what are the chances.

BlackManta:


How is eternity in hell fire a worthy punishment for sin.

How does finite offences befit infinite punishment

The offence is rejecting God's one and only sacrifice.
Not even sin because Jesus has already solved the sin question by his death

I used to ask this questions too. Until God opened my eyes to understand salvation and Jesus.

I fell in love with Jesus. That is the best thing that happened to me.
Jesus is the best friend anyone can have

Mtcheeeew!
All these pentecostals and their faulty doctrines!
So prostitutes that believe in Jesus are going to heaven Abi? Lord have mercy on your people..

djon78:



The offence is rejecting God's one and only sacrifice.
Not even sin because Jesus has already solved the sin question by his death

I used to ask this questions too. Until God opened my eyes to understand salvation and Jesus.

I fell in love with Jesus. That is the best thing that happened to me.
Jesus is the best friend anyone can have

If you as a human being reject the sacrifice and effort of your parents on your life.

Are they justified to lock you up in a furnace and roast you alive

BlackManta:


What is the ratio of secret disciples to devout Muslims.

In every 100,000,000 Muslims how many would have encounter with Jesus and what are the chances.

Let me ask you this two question


The first world that was destroyed by flood
Was it not only Noah and his family that were saved


When Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed was it not only lot and his family were saved



See my brother we can never question God's Justice because we are mere men.
Even the breadth in our nostrils belong to God
Our body is God's
Our ability to impregnate our wife is God
Children we get is God's
Oil in our ground is God's
That our land is fruitful is God's

See man can't live without God

djon78:



Let me ask you this two question


The first world that was destroyed by flood
Was it not only Noah and his family that were saved


When Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed was it not only lot and his family were saved



See my brother we can never question God's Justice because we are mere men.
Even the breadth in our nostrils belong to God
Our body is God's
Our ability to impregnate our wife is God
Children we get is God's
Oil in our ground is God's
That our land is fruitful is God's

See man can't live without God

Noah and Lots family survived but millions died.

Including...

Children.
Pregnant women and their unborn babies.

Innocent people killed.

So much for God's justice...

djon78:




The reason he will be judged according to his conscience was because he did not hear about Jesus

So God being a God of justice judges him based on moral code like did he kill, commit adultery, steal etc.


But for those that heard of Jesus, God judges them based on Jesus, that is why Romans 8 vs 1 says that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

Good! So considering the fact that christianity has been around for roughly 2000 years and humans has been in existence for about 6000 years or thereabout, we can safely assume that majority of the good people that would make heaven won't do so via Jesus.

Except you are saying that there were little or no good people existing before Jesus came.

HeyCorleone:


No. He provides very sound, and sane arguments.

The idea of God being omniscient already cancels the subject of heaven or hell.

If he knows your beginning and your end before you were born, certainly he knows your choices, and your final destination. Ain't it?

There's something called will which He (God) gives to all men. You decide where you want to end up.

linnyx:


There's something called will which He (God) gives to all men. You decide where you want to end up.

Even with the will, the fact that he is omniscient cancels that out. Do more study on the concept of "omniscience". It's infinite. No constraint.

Besides God is a loving father.

Evince:
has ur imaginary god given u the answers? Mu square

Oh yea, He (The Almighty) has given me the answers I need. All I need do is read His words, look around me and even at you and your intelligence, I just marvel at the magnificence of His creation.

You can do better without the insults though. Bless your sweet heart

BlackManta:


Noah and Lots family survived but millions died.

Including...

Children.
Pregnant women and their unborn babies.

Innocent people killed.

So much for God's justice...

Can a clay question the Porter

HeyCorleone:


Even with the will, the fact that he is omniscient cancels that out. Do more study on the concept of "omniscience". It's infinite. No constraint.

Besides God is a loving father.

Him being omniscient doesn't mean He interferes with our decisions.

djon78:




Can a clay question the Porter

Clay can't talk.

VictorRomanov:


Good! So considering the fact that christianity has been around for roughly 2000 years and humans has been in existence for about 6000 years or thereabout, we can safely assume that majority of the good people that would make heaven won't do so via Jesus.

Except you are saying that there were little or no good people existing before Jesus came.

Before Jesus came God judges people by there deeds. Even in the old testament.
They were men that feared God

linnyx:


Him being omniscient doesn't mean He interferes with our decisions.

He, nonetheless, knows our decisions.

It seems you do not understand the extent of His omniscience. There's nothing that's hidden from him. True he can't override our beliefs and all, but he knows them.

djon78:




Can a clay question the Porter

If the clay questions, then like the sinner it shall be cast into the flames and burnt.

But the potter shall redeem the clay and the sinner shall be tortured forever and ever.

Praise Him!

Rayreezy:


Shut up

oh mortal man,becos d devil have tied u with a twine,u now behave like a swine.....REPENT B4 IT'S TOO LATE.

he that thinks he stands should take heed lest he falls... what can you say about this?

djon78:



Before Jesus came God judges people by there deeds. Even in the old testament.
They were men that feared God

So if God will accept men for their good deeds before Jesus came and they'll make heaven, why then was there need for Jesus to come and die. Because it wouldn't make any different if he didn't come. Men with good deeds and a clean conscience would still have made heaven.

Oh, I came late to this party!
@Op has said nothing but heresy. If we only need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour as the only thing we need to make heaven even if we sin afterwards, then, how come Judas Iscariot, Ananias and Safira who accepted Jesus but later sinned by committing suicide and lying respectively did not make heaven? This shows that the op's understanding of Christianity/bible is faulty.

The bible is clear. We need to believe in Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit and so, walk in the Spirit we have received which makes us new born in Christ. Even if we fall to the flesh by sinning (though, the grace of God is sufficient for us not to fall into temptation but sometimes, we don't make use of the grace and fall anyway), we should quickly go back to God with a remorseful heart and desire not to go back to the sin again. And in the infinite mercy of God, we will be forgiven. This is what will make us saints and get us to heaven.

[quoteg author=VictorRomanov post=73495383]

So if God will accept men for their good deeds before Jesus came and they'll make heaven, why then was there need for Jesus to come and die. Because it wouldn't make any different if he didn't come. Men with good deeds and a clean conscience would still have made heaven.[/quote]

They did not go to heaven. They were in bosom of Abraham just like dead Lazarus Jesus talked about in rich man and Lazarus


There was always a sacrifice for sin. Animals had to be killed. In almost all cultures from Africa to Asia to South America there has always been animal sacrifices.

But animal sacrifices could not pay the ultimate price for the sin of man.
God had to send His only begotten son Jesus to come and pay as a sacrificial Lamb for the sin of the whole world.



In Hebrews 8 vs 5, when Moses was given the design of the tabernacle, it was a design of tabernacle in heaven


In Hebrews 9 vs 11 and 12

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

This tabernacle was in heaven not on earth

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

With his own blood not of goats he entered the holy place in heaven before God Almighty and obtained eternal redemption.


That is eternal by back.
This was heavenly transactions.
The blood of goats and calves could cover sin before a Holy God for sometime

But Jesus with his own blood, purchased eternal redemption for us


The gravity of this purchase, human understanding cannot grasp it.
But this purchase could allow the vilest offenders like prostitutes, murderers, drug dealers, all kind of evil and vile men who had no hope. But the blood of Jesus can wash away all there sins and make them new creatures or born again. So that God will completely forgive there sins because of the blood of Jesus.



Money cannot be equated to the value of blood of Jesus as written in 1 Peter vs

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;


Money is corruptible, it can go away or lose value or become worthless tomorrow


19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

But the blood of Jesus is precious, very expensive, highest Worth.

linnyx:

Oh yea, He (The Almighty) has given me the answers I need. All I need do is read His words, look around me and even at you and your intelligence, I just marvel at the magnificence of His creation.

You can do better without the insults though. Bless your sweet heart

I take the insult back with heart felt apology.

But can u do a research about the writing of the moral book that later called God's word. Please read and discover