MuttleyLaff:
You are at liberty to ignore where it was typed it is added to the mix to make it more exciting.

This is not a question that can be given a binary answer to. It is important to know that, especially in the West, decisions taken to go the route of abortion are invariably informed and usually responsible ones. Also the devil knows how to quote the Bible, especially when busy asking trick and indicting questions.

Michellekabod1:

Aside circumstances were the attempted delivery of the child will pose a threatening to the mother's life (eg ectopic pregnancy),is there any permissible grounds for abortion?....can you kindly give an example

frosbel2:
I was pondering this morning about murder , you know , with all the disturbing front page articles on murder and the gruesome pictures shown. I started thinking , how can people be so heartless and lacking in empathy to the extent of not just killing a fellow being but doing so in a manner that is savagely barbaric. These murderers must have mental health issues, anger problems or just plain evil built into their DNA.


Following this thinking, I began to wonder, but what about abortion, is it murder and if yes, is there a difference between a murderer who kills a grown man or woman, and someone who aborts a fetus.

Few things to consider about the Fetus

- The fetus is in a sort of oblivious state of being as it pertains to consciousness
- The fetus is not fully formed as a human being, so perhaps may not yet be a human being
- The fetus may be the result of a rape or unintended consequences ( such as intercourse between two careless people )
- The fetus may possess a deformity that if allowed to fully mature will result in a life of pain.


But there are some similarities between abortion and murder

- They are both premeditated
- They are both done for selfish reasons
- They both have expected and unintended consequences.

Considering this brief narrative, what do you think,

- Is abortion on the same level of evil as murder
- Is there a special case where abortion is permissible
- Is abortion is not murder regardless ?


Lets discuss

frosbel2:


If a court judge sentences a person to death and the noose man carries it out on the basis of the guilt of that convict , it is not murder, it is called JUSTICE !!

Besides what does this have to do with the article ?

Christians and circular arguments.

Jesus said ;
"Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one " - Matthew 5:37

LordReed:


Who made it sacred?

MuttleyLaff:
Let me throw this one too in the mix. The court judge and the hangman or noose man that carries out the judge's death sentence is that murder or not. At the end of the day, each one of us, needs the services of the best representative there is, to defend our corner for us and on our behalf explain the circumstances surrounding each and every thought, deed and actions we carried out

johnydon22:
I do not have much interest in your thread having gone over it like a thousand times before. But there are some absurd assertions that caught my attention that i feel should be corrected.



1. It has been shown that fetus feel pain
2. It has been shown they recoil at discomfort.

Therefore, they are not oblivious to external stimuli not even to the threat of death.

3. Obliviousness is not an argument still to kill a human or we could all agree it is morally permissible to kill a comatose patient because, he is oblivious.

This is basically the most absurd assertion from this thread. There is no such a thing as a fully formed human. A human is a state of being not a stage stop conflating the two.

There is never a time something that isn't human becomes human at some point, anything that isn't human isn't human and cannot be human. A human is always a human but goes through several stages of being human.

Human adult
Human adolescent
Human child
Human baby
Human fetus

These are different stages of being human but in all these stages only one thing is constant, human.

An adult is no more human than an adolescent and thus down the chain.

So please, there is no such thing as a fully formed human, unless you should give us the definition of human on which you base this premise.

Cause and effect? It is not the child's fault at any instance.


What stops us from killing out every deformed person on earth now whether they are born or not?

johnydon22:

1. It has been shown that fetus feel pain
2. It has been shown they recoil at discomfort.

Therefore, they are not oblivious to external stimuli not even to the threat of death.

XxSabrinaxX:
Abortion is not on the same level of murder. It is not a crime, because there are valid, justifiable reasons to have one. Said reasons include, but are not limited to:

1. Stillbirth: The baby has died in the womb, and rather than forcing the mother to endure the rest of the pregnancy, with possible serious side effects due to dead tissue, the doctors recommend an abortion or induced labor to get it out.
2. Non-viable: The foetus will not survive outside of the womb, or the chances of living are so minuscule as to be almost impossible. Again, rather than forcing the mother through a pregnancy that will only result in a dead body, an abortion is obtained.
3. Rape/Incest: Already traumatised by severe abuse, the pregnant person has no desire to be further traumatised by carrying and birthing a living reminder of their attacker. Nor do they want to give said abuser a chance to sue for joint custody or family visitation, which happens far more often that most sane people would think.
4. Serious Health Risks/Complications: Pregnancies are not easy. The maternal mortality rate is much lower than it used to be, but ectopic pregnancies, mothers too young to safely bear a child without serious consequences to their health, people with pre-existing medical conditions that could be fatally enhanced by pregnancy, etc. still exist.

I know people who are in the last category. To carry a pregnancy to term, one would have to completely forego life-saving medication. They would most likely not survive long enough for the foetus to reach viability. They can take all the precautions in the world, but abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control. If they became pregnant, they would get an abortion, because not getting one would gain them nothing but a coffin and six feet of dirt.

You can't say that preserving one's life should be considered a crime.

johnydon22:


Who made gold valuable?

Who made government effective?

Who made oaths binding?

Who made money a thing of value?

Who made constitutions?

Who made belief potent?

Answer; Intersubjective human belief.

Jesus. I have to explain such elementary stuffs.

johnydon22:
I do not have much interest in your thread having gone over it like a thousand times before. But there are some absurd assertions that caught my attention that i feel should be corrected.



1. It has been shown that fetus feel pain
2. It has been shown they recoil at discomfort.

Therefore, they are not oblivious to external stimuli not even to the threat of death.

3. Obliviousness is not an argument still to kill a human or we could all agree it is morally permissible to kill a comatose patient because, he is oblivious.

This is basically the most absurd assertion from this thread. There is no such a thing as a fully formed human. A human is a state of being not a stage stop conflating the two.

There is never a time something that isn't human becomes human at some point, anything that isn't human isn't human and cannot be human. A human is always a human but goes through several stages of being human.

Human adult
Human adolescent
Human child
Human baby
Human fetus

These are different stages of being human but in all these stages only one thing is constant, human.

An adult is no more human than an adolescent and thus down the chain.

So please, there is no such thing as a fully formed human, unless you should give us the definition of human on which you base this premise.

Cause and effect? It is not the child's fault at any instance.


What stops us from killing out every deformed person on earth now whether they are born or not?

XxSabrinaxX:
Abortion is not on the same level of murder. It is not a crime, because there are valid, justifiable reasons to have one. Said reasons include, but are not limited to:

1. Stillbirth: The baby has died in the womb, and rather than forcing the mother to endure the rest of the pregnancy, with possible serious side effects due to dead tissue, the doctors recommend an abortion or induced labor to get it out.
2. Non-viable: The foetus will not survive outside of the womb, or the chances of living are so minuscule as to be almost impossible. Again, rather than forcing the mother through a pregnancy that will only result in a dead body, an abortion is obtained.
3. Rape/Incest: Already traumatised by severe abuse, the pregnant person has no desire to be further traumatised by carrying and birthing a living reminder of their attacker. Nor do they want to give said abuser a chance to sue for joint custody or family visitation, which happens far more often that most sane people would think.
4. Serious Health Risks/Complications: Pregnancies are not easy. The maternal mortality rate is much lower than it used to be, but ectopic pregnancies, mothers too young to safely bear a child without serious consequences to their health, people with pre-existing medical conditions that could be fatally enhanced by pregnancy, etc. still exist.

I know people who are in the last category. To carry a pregnancy to term, one would have to completely forego life-saving medication. They would most likely not survive long enough for the foetus to reach viability. They can take all the precautions in the world, but abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control. If they became pregnant, they would get an abortion, because not getting one would gain them nothing but a coffin and six feet of dirt.

You can't say that preserving one's life should be considered a crime.

Antichristus:



Some people, including some Christian denominations (e.g. the Church of England) would consider abortion morally permissible in cases of rape, incest and severe fetal abnormality. In these scenarios, the quality of life supplants sanctity of life.

The OP referenced consciousness (" fetus is in a sort of oblivious state of being as it pertains to consciousness".) He is right. In moral philosophy, personhood is lost when an individual cannot think (lacking thoughts) and act upon their thoughts (inability to act, rationally). In other words, they lack consciousness. In such cases, it is morally permissible - in medical settings to terminate their lives (euthanasia). The same principle is applicable to fetuses - they lack personhood - as they cannot think and act upon their actions.

greenhulk:


So let's say someone gets raped and got pregnant as a result of that rape. Not only that, let's say she also got infected with HIV Aids as a result. Now is it advisable to still go ahead and deliver that baby knowing quite well the pains the mother will feel every time she looks at that child knowing how it all happened. Plus is it advisable to give birth to an HIV positive child adding to the threat of the environment? Just a question.