@mrpataki,

Glad that you've seen what I was hinting at earlier, and you have just well captured it:

mrpataki:

@ all,

There is nothing as The Lost Torah and Injil. It is all a hoax and mischievous lie by some ignorant beings to decieve people the more!

The reason why they claim that they were "lost" is to cover up their fallacy of the embarrasing statements in the Qur'an that Muhammad is in the Bible! Since they cannot find the Quraish prophet in a single verse of the Bible, the easiest thing to do was declare that the "Torah and Injil" given to Moses and Jesus were lost.

Una don see am - the claim of a "LOST" Torah/Injil is a colossal lie.

Enjoy.

Madam pilgrim.1 may God bless you. Combatant will soon be delivered from the bondage of Islam now that his lies, allah's inconsistencies and mohammed's prevarications have been exposed!

Lol. . . @davidylan,

I only served him just a fraction of the gist. He obviously had not studied his Qur'an or Hadiths, so I had to go it easy with him so as not to choke him with far more colossal evidence to the fact that the Bible was well known in Muhammad's day!

@ pilgrim,God bless you.
I'm sure combatant is reading all the koran versions,Yusuf ali,shakir,picttall and even his olabowole koran
You have taught him what his imams hid from him.
It's back to almajiri school.

pilgrim.1:

Lol. . . @davidylan,

I only served him just a fraction of the gist. He obviously had not studied his Qur'an or Hadiths, so [b]I had to go it easy with him so as not to choke him with far more colossal evidence to the fact that the Bible was well known in Muhammad's day! ;[/b]D

How about the heretic sect that taught him trinity to be God the father,Christ and mary.
It is well documented.
The guy after all was a stark illiterate.
No wonder he couldn't get the stories straight.
He calls Mary, sister of Aaron and says moses was saved by his mother from the river and Abraham wanted to sacrifice Ishmael,when we know what the Bible says.

nwando:

How about the heretic sect that taught him trinity to be God the father,Christ and mary.
It is well documented.
The guy after all was a stark illiterate.
No wonder he couldn't get the stories straight.
He calls Mary, sister of Aaron and says moses was saved by his mother from the river and Abraham wanted to sacrifice Ishmael,when we know what the Bible says.

Mohammad was definately not good at plagiarism

cgift:

Mohammad was definately not good at plagiarism

He sure was! It is the rest of us who are trying to understand him that have failed to see how creative Muhammad was! I still can't get over how he manufactured the story of Moses slapping the angel of death and spoiling one of his eyes! Lol. . the Quraish prophet sure had some grand ideas!

@pilgrim.1

You may continue making the denail but will continue ponting out the truth for you to see

Now you claimed that Allah revealed the bible, the bible is divided into two, one OT and the other is NT and you said Allah revealed the bible, do we say God gave the book of genesis to Malachi to Moses and the gospel of mathew to the book of revelation to Jesus?

Qur'an 3 v 3
He has sent down to you (O dear Prophet Muhammad - peace
and blessings be upon him) this true Book (the Holy Qur'an),
confirming the Books before it,
and He sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Bible).

From your above quotation, do we say the Injeel is the bible?

Qur'an 3 v 3
He revealed the book unto you with truth
which certifies the (Books revealed before and
He revealed Towret (Torah) and [b]Enjeel (Bible).[/[/b]quote]

Do we say the Enjeel is the bible?

When we collect the basic thought expressed in the sura above, there is only one inference to make: Muslim scholars believe that 'Allah' revealed the "Bible" ('He sent down (or, "revealed" the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Bible).

You posted same thing here as well, emphasis on Injeel in which the bible is used in place of it. Do we say the Injeel is same as the bible?


Have a lovely day

@Pligrim.1: Please point out the plagirised verses of the Bible, either in Torah, sabuur or Injiil, side by side with the Qur'anic verses. We will like to make the decisions ourselves. Put up or cower down. The bruhaha must stop. here and now!

If any one plagirises, the original can never be inferior, intextural subsatnce and in wisdom. Infact it should be the other way around.

Muhammad said to the Quraish who came to him with dry bones which they struck against the ground and in that instance shattered about the place, in small pieces. They said to him, Oh Muhammad, you said that our forefathers and us will be raised up for judgement, after we have been dead and became decayed bones? Muhammad (as), said to them, even them after you have been dead and even become bones. God will raise you up. It is very easy for Allah, He created you the first time! The creation was without previous example.

Baby, do not be deluded. Paradise and Hellfire are real. Those who make jokes of the commandments of Allah, given to His prophets, they will be herded into hellfire! hell will take them and still ask for whoever belongs into it.


If you believe any verse in the Qur'an, then you must believe all the verses. Your Bible did not graduate enough to talk about Qur'an. It is Qur'an that can talk about your Bible. Just like the Torah did not talk about the Injiil, with certainty. All your assumption thereof, is purely by conjecture.

olabowale:

Baby, do not be deluded. Paradise and Hellfire are real. Those who make jokes of the commandments of Allah, given to His prophets, they will be herded into hellfire! hell will take them and still ask for whoever belongs into it.

That same allah, by an irrevocable decree, has declared that you sir will be in Hell fire according to Surah 19:71.

@David

That same allah, by an irrevocable decree, has declared that you sir will be in Hell fire according to Surah 19:71.

Hope you are not trying to deflect the topic as you used to?



@Pilgrim.1

Based on what you supplied, do we say the Injeel is the same as bible?

@Nwando: Your last entry, posted yesterday, on this subject has a name: Fiction! Produce you Nigerian born Aisha who you have been raving about! She left a path that is straight and narrow and began a journey that will end up in hellfire? So much for her thinking. Even a child can tell the diffrerence between suitable condition and unbearable one.

Don't you call my zainab your sister? Yet you are not related. Except you share the same ethnicity in Nigeria. Are not all black people indeed related? Are not all men realated through Adam? Why is it so difficult for you christians to get it that mary the mother of Jesus (as), is from the priestly line of Aaron, who is a full brother of Moses. Hence she could be called whatever she was called in the Qur'an!

Is it not in your book, that you are giving us the lineage of Jesus, as son of so many men, all the way to Adam? Yet, in the two paths of lineages which you have in your book, God, who you claim to be his father never was written down in either! Yet there are names in one that do not appear in another.

Being God, as you said Jesus is, maybe he is actually his own father. Just maybe. can you explain that to me? How does that work?

Is it not true that Moses' mother was hired as wet nurse for her own son? You find it very hard that he was returned back to his mother, while still a babe, who needs his mother's attention? Is this impossible as a sign from God Almighty Allah to bring to bear?

Islam is very far away from your grasp. You limit the power of God, almost to a human standard.

Show me your Nigerian Aisha and let me talk to her for a moment. You have my number. If you want it, again, i will supply it. Don't lead yourself to hellfire. There is a chance for a turn away frm a path fromdestruction, while you are still alive. Definately, do not be a means of leading others to the same destruction.

@All

I read through this thread and came to a conclusion: never have I come across such an exercise in futility! To embark so vogorously in discrediting each other's sacred text is nothing but fruitless granstanding. dont we ever learn anything? havent we learnt that condenmation is always counter productive and people are never gonna come over to your side based merely on what you think is superior arguement? Such waste of time and effort!

I always marvel at this ancient art of discrediting that goes on btw muslims and chriastians; totally uneccessary! people will believe what they want to believe and condenmative analysis will not make them change their minds!

If we celebrate that which we have in common rather than focus on things that separate us, we surely would have a better world.

The common humanity that we share is enough to celebrate because all else is a matter of perspective and perception.

There can be unity in diversity; our commonality need not threaten our individuality.

may we all find Peace Profound.

combatant:

@David

Hope you are not trying to deflect the topic as you used to?

The topic asks very succintly - Where is the torah and injil allah claimed to have revealed? Have you answered it before crying about deflecting of the topic?

@combatant,

combatant:

@pilgrim.1

You may continue making the denail but will continue ponting out the truth for you to see

Please continue to make a clown out of yourself for as many times as you pretend your hypocrisy as "truth".

combatant:

Now you claimed that Allah revealed the bible, the bible is divided into two, one OT and the other is NT and you said Allah revealed the bible, do we say God gave the book of genesis to Malachi to Moses and the gospel of mathew to the book of revelation to Jesus?

You're a classic daft! If this is your own way of trying to deny the obvious statements in the Qur'an to expose the inconsistencies of Muhammad's tales, I can well bear with your dilemma.

Asking me if Genesis to Malachi was "revealed" to Moses is quite an illiterate response to the plain point that I had several times made that the Torah (the Law), the Zabur (the Psalms), and the Injil (Gospels) were the specifically mentioned Biblical documents in the Qur'an. Now, have I ever claimed that the Zabur (the Psalms) were revealed to Moses? Please post where I ever hinted the otiose remark in your post above.

combatant:

From your above quotation, do we say the Injeel is the bible?

You should be asking your illiterate Muslim translators. I didn't edit, add or subtract anything in their direct quotes - for I simply lifted their statements and reposted them in my rejoinders to deal with your confusion.

FACT #1. The English translation of the Qur'an by Mohammed Aqib Farid Qadri uses the word "Bible" in this context:

Qur'an 3 v 3
He has sent down to you (O dear Prophet Muhammad - peace
and blessings be upon him) this true Book (the Holy Qur'an),
confirming the Books before it,
and He sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Bible).

FACT #2. The same thing is directly stated in the edition known as 'Al Quraan-ul Kareem' compiled by Muhammad Moazam Ali (corrections by Prof. M. Mahmood Hussain Siddiqui):

Qur'an 3 v 3
He revealed the book unto you with truth
which certifies the (Books revealed before and
He revealed Towret (Torah) and Enjeel (Bible).

FACT #3. The HADITH uses the word "Bible" as definitive of the "Torah and Injil" -

[list]Sahih Muslim, Book 035, Number 6551:

Suhail reported that Abu Salih used to command us (in these words): When any one of you intends to go to sleep, he should lie on the bed on his right side and then say: "O Allah. the Lord of the Heavens and the Lord of the Earth and Lord of the Magnificent Throne, our Lord, and the Lord of everything, the Splitter of the grain of corn and the datestone (or fruit kernal), the Revealer of Torah and Injil (Bible) and Criterion (the Holy Qur'an), I seek refuge in Thee from the evil of every- thing Thou art to sieze by the forelock (Thou hast perfect control over it). O Allah, Thou art the First, there is naught before Thee, and Thou art the Last and there is naught after Thee, and Thou art Evident and there is nothing above Thee, and Thou art Innermost and there is nothing beyond Thee. Remove the burden of debt from us and relieve us from want." Abu Salih used to narrate it from Abu Huraira who narrated it from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him). [see also Book 035, Number 6552][/list]

If you care for honesty at all, you should have been asking yourself WHY Muslim translators have referred to the "Torah and the Injil" as "Bible", instead of asking questions like a kindergarten.

It is also remarkable to observe that you have laboured at nothing to deny the very core teaching of Islam - that "Allah" is referred to as "the Revealer of Torah and Injil (Bible)". That Hadith was traced back to Muhammad - establishing the fact that even Muhammad was known to have believed that "Allah" is the "revealer" of what Muslims today deny in their cowardly hypocrisies!

combatant:

You posted same thing here as well, emphasis on Injeel in which the bible is used in place of it. Do we say the Injeel is same as the bible?

Same answer as above.

combatant:

Have a lovely day

Same to you.

davidylan:

The topic asks very succintly - Where is the torah and injil allah claimed to have revealed? Have you answered it before crying about deflecting of the topic?

Lol. . . he came with a new style: deny the same things that Muslims themselves have asserted!

@Shaman,

Shaman:

If we celebrate that which we have in common rather than focus on things that separate us, we surely would have a better world.

You obviously have not read the various contributions with a thinking cap. Muhammad does not see anything common between Islam and other religions. QED.

Qur'an 3:85 --
And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0031:

It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that he heard
the Messenger of Allah say:

I have been commanded to fight against people, till they testify
to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that)
I am the messenger (from the Lord) and in all that I have brought.

And when they do it, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection
on my behalf except where it is justified by law,
and their affairs rest with Allah.


Could you Shaman help us reconcile just those two examples with the so-called "common" things which Muhammad tried to share with others who did not submit to him (at pain of death and plunder of their riches)?!?

@Pilgrim.1:Your quote of the Qur'an verse above, from Al Imran, verse 85, is a testmony to you and will be against you, if you die while still practising another religion. The hadith quoted dealt with Arab penisula, alone. Am from Ijebu ode, and I did not hear from any Ijebu man that there was an invading arab military that brought Islam to that land. Maybe, you may enlighten me, because you may have a better information of how Islam entered Yoruba land.

@olabowale,

olabowale:

@Pilgrim.1:Your quote of the Qur'an verse above, from Al Imran, verse 85, is a testmony to you and will be against you, if you die while still practising another religion.

I'm not worried, because that verse is another one of the personal assumptions of Muhammad which he pretended as a "revelation" from 'Allah'. There's only one place that people will find themselves if they die as Muslims - and that is the Hell that 'Allah' has promised by a hatman decree to take every single Muslim into (Sura 19:71)!

olabowale:

The hadith quoted dealt with Arab penisula, alone. Am from Ijebu ode, and I did not hear from any Ijebu man that there was an invading arab military that brought Islam to that land. Maybe, you may enlighten me, because you may have a better information of how Islam entered Yoruba land.

Rubbish! That very hadith has been the catalyst for Islamic Jihad - and that is why Muhammad looted and plundered people wherever he went to spread Islam by the sword. The same Muhammad declared: "I have been made victorious with TERROR! (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk. 52, Num. 220), and in the one I quoted earlier, he warned that those who do not embrace Islam under the use of force are not protected (whether their "blood" or "riches".

If you're simply denying Muhammad's adventures, please do use the fallacy of Ijebu Ode to cover up the obvious.

~

@olabowale,

Okay, I brought your rejoinder here to address them from the other thread so we don’t derail its purpose.

olabowale:
I wonder if you know more than "do you care for that?"

You need not wonder about anything - if you notice, that is my way of inviting a discussion on a proposed subject so that I'm not seen as forcing anyone to argue into a basket. If the discussant declines, I do not beat them into submission or waste my time chasing shadows about talks that lead nowhere.

olabowale:
I care for truth and let the chip or timber call where it may!

I don't see how you have demonstrated your love for "truth" other than celebrating the lies of people like Ahmed Deedat and co. If you really cared for truth, we would not be reading your long winding story-telling that assert a premise and yet be unable to logically defend that premise to a fine finish.

olabowale:
For example something is lost when the pure quality is reduced in Quanity. Thake for example; 1 Metric ton of already hallmarked Gold boullion. If you take to a refinery or a warehouse and after a long time you return for your property and you are given a partial gold amount, what you now have if a lost product. Afterall part of it is lost. This is what we have in the Bible today. If Moses, Daud and jesus, for example were to be here today, and see what you call their "Books," in the Bible, even in the Hebrew or Aramaic texts, they will definitely declare that some verses are missing, in each of their concerned books.

If this is the way you argue the idea of a "lost" document such as the Torah, Zabur and Injil, then I'm sorry to say that you have done a greater disservice to the Qur'an than you had imagined! WHY? For the simple reason that all the translations of the  Qur'an would be reducing the quality of the Arabic  Qur'an - and what is more, such an idea would absolutely rubbish the teachings of the same  Qur'an, since it asks you Muslims to believe in those Biblical documents!

Now tell me: how could your 'allah' be asking you to believe in something which you claim today has been lost? Is it logical that 'Allah' would be asking you to believe in the "former scriptures" when he knew that the same "scriptures" are lost?

Now, let me elaborate further:

We read categorical statements in the Qur'an that confirm that while Muhammed was going round his career, the "scriptures" which 'Allah' was referring to were said to be in the possession of Jews and Christians. A few examples:

In Sura 2 v 40-41, 'Allah' claims that the Qur'an came to confirm what was in the possession of the Jews, and this is how the various translations render that verse 41:

[list]Pickthall
And believe in that which I reveal,
confirming that which ye possess already (of the Scripture),

Yusuf Ali
And believe in what I reveal,
confirming the revelation which IS with you,

Hilali-Khan
And believe in what I have sent down (this Qur'an),
confirming that which IS with you,
[the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)],

Shakir
And believe in what I have revealed,
verifying that which IS with you

Sher Ali
And believe in what I have sent
which fulfill which IS with you

Khalifa
You shall believe in what I have revealed herein,
confirming what ye HAVE [/list]

You can see that all these translations are unanimous in declaring that when The Great Prophet made that statement in Sura 2 v 40-41, the Torah and the Injil were still with the ‘children of Israel’ – it was a present tense indicative that the translators used in that verse:

(a) that “which IS with you”
(instead of ‘that which was with you’);  and

(b) “what ye HAVE ”
(instead of ‘what ye HAD’)

These verse clearly indicate that both the Torah and the Injil were in the possession of the children of Israel when The Great Prophet came with the Qur'an!

My question now is: WHEN did Muslims discover that the Torah and Injil got lost after that verse?

The remarkable thing is that the Qur'an did not at any one time indicate that the Torah, Injil or Zabur had become lost – not at any time! If it says so, please post us the verse to read for oursleves! It is just because you guys are too embarrassed to admit the fallacy of the claims in the Qur'an that is why you propound all sorts of theories to make assertive claims that you cannot defend!

Again, in Sura 5 v 68, the Qur'an makes this bold statement:

Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance)
till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was
revealed unto you from your Lord.
That which is revealed unto thee (The Great Prophet) from thy Lord
is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them.
But grieve not for the disbelieving folk. [Pickthall tr.]

It is really funny that your ‘Allah’ could be asking Jews and Christians (‘People of the Scripture’) to observe ‘the Torah and the Gospel’ if they were lost – that would be absolute and unquantifiable confusion, to ask people to observe what is lost!

The second part of that verse is even more remarkable, in that it points to the Qur'an as a book that is “certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many”!!

Now, why would anyone want to believe in what is certain to increase “disbelief”?!? Whereas the same Qur'an admonishes Jews and Christians to observe “the Torah and the Gospel” and that which was revealed unto [us] from the Lord? Is it not confusion beyond measure to suggest that ‘Allah’ would be asking people to believe in what is lost while the one he claims to have revealed is actually bound to increase “disbelief”?

You see, olabowale, your assertions are simply not patronizing enough – and although you may sing that song about a “lost” Torah and Injil, you’d be doing more damage to the teaching of the Qur'an by forcing yourself to make claims that neither The Great Prophet nor ‘Allah’ ever made anywhere!

@olabowale,

olabowale:
As to referring to the Bible as corrupt, I will use the same gold to illustrate my point: If when you return you are given a smaller quanity, meaning that some parts are already gone and not returned to you and they greedily and corningly claim that this is exactly what you brought to them, but when you take what you have now, the smaller quantity to a refinery to resmelt it so that it can be assayed afresh and hallmarked, but what the refiner is telling you is that each melted bar now contains some silver, platinum, uranium (even though the last two are more expensive), what you find is that there is corruption in each bar, because of these added materials, which were done by the wherehouse custodians without your knowledge.

Many thanks for that analogy – but its best place of consignment is the garbage bin! If you’re going to keep up this argument with all sorts of excuses to dupe the gullible that the Bible is “corrupt”, you’d be rubbishing the claims of the Qur'an that it came to “confirm” the same Biblical scriptures! To that effect, neither you nor babs787 who touted this idea of a lost and corrupt Torah and Injil were able to defend your false assertions where pilgrim.1 took you to task on that same issue in her thread: Babs787, Where Did The Qur'an Say So?. I was tempted to enter that same thread and elaborate on what you guys were making noise about; but I was quite impressed with how she deflated, or rather “bleached” you guys until there was no colour left in either of you!

olabowale:
The Qur'an is the Refinery which by weighting your bag of Gold tells you that you have less than 1 Metric ton. And when it is put under a smelting process to qualify its purity, it is the one also that tells you that your product contains impurity: Eg Pauls statement and even the acts, epistles and other mundane verses.

The Qur'an actually is the candlewax that melts under the searing heat of the Bible. In every case that we have been examining (at least, in every case you and I have discussed), isn’t it funny that you have not been able to sustain your own assumptions and rather made excuses to plaster the wax until it has gone from white to ‘Agege’ brown?

Haawwww. . . olabowale, cool down! There’s nothing that Muhammed’s Qur'an can improve upon in the Bible – from the first to the last, as soon as he denied that God was known as ‘FATHER’, he qualified himself completely outside the ranks of the Biblical prophets.

olabowale:
Finally, even though am not an expert in Yoruba language, but i doubt if anyone can cheat me in the essence of its speech. If I do not know it, i ask any Yoruba in my vicinity, my family, my friends or better yet go to the indigenous speakers and experts, in the villages and universities:

I’m surprised you’re saying that, because even though I’m a Yoruba myself, you write better than I could attempt with fluency – which is not to say that I don’t have a good grasp of the lingo though.

olabowale:
afterall, a ji sebi Yoruba lan ri Yoruba ko nji se mi eni kon.

Abi O!