gregyboy:


Do you tell them oghene is from middle belt, Zimbabwe or central Africa

Or oghene was a mixup....

So oghene is ife


And your mumu brother gave you likes

Men who are lead by women, i spit on yoruba men

Check up the manufactured likes well and you’ll see that you’re arguing with Seun himself. Lol! Doctored likes. This should tell you the direction of nairaland from inception. Pro-Yoruba in culture and politics. So don’t waste your time Edeyoung. Whether they like it or not, they can win the tide.

gregyboy:


Do you tell them oghene is from middle belt, Zimbabwe or central Africa

Or oghene was a mixup....

So oghene is ife


And your mumu brother gave you likes

Men who are lead by women, i spit on yoruba men

See my slave here again.

No, Oghene is from the U.S.

Cry me the world’s oceans.

cc: googi, Eastlink

gregyboy:


Do you tell them oghene is from middle belt, Zimbabwe or central Africa

Or oghene was a mixup....

So oghene is ife


And your mumu brother gave you likes

Men who are lead by women, i spit on yoruba men

If it was not for Yoruba gallantry in 1967 you witches would be speaking Biafran language by now.

Even presently as Tao11 is giving impressive and enlightning knowledge to crush Yanminri's ambition to subdue you in Edo State, rather than you night-broom rider to either back her or stfu, you are instead supporting Ibo.

Na God go punish you and yanminri there, Nnamdi Kanu has included you on his map. No Yoruba will come to your rescue when Biafra return to scatter your enclave. Bloody witch!

Tao11, abeg, you have made your point. Step aside so Yanminri can show these witches who Nri is. Let Nri and Edo solve their issue. Youve made it clear enough Oghene is in Ife, not in wawa ibo.

BabaRamota1980:


If it was not for Yoruba gallantry in 1967 you witches would be speaking Biafran language by now.

Even presently as Tao11 is giving impressive and enlightning knowledge to crush Yanminri's ambition to subdue you in Edo State, rather than you night-broom rider to either back her or stfu, you are instead supporting Ibo.

Na God go punish you and yanminri there, Nnamdi Kanu has included you on his map. No Yoruba will come to your rescue when Biafra return to scatter your enclave. Bloody witch!

Tao11, abeg, you have made your point. Step aside so Yanminri can show these witches who Nri is. Let Nri and Edo solve their issue. Youve made it clear enough Oghene is in Ife, not in wawa ibo.

Lol, you just want me to insult yorubas dont you


Bunch of cowards,

I want to ask how did the yorubas save us from biafra, because if i can remember late general ogbemudia was an edo man, not a yoruba man

The yoruba man i think you are indirectly making Refrence to committed suicide with rat poison when thesame people he helped came for his head, a benin man would never do that to himself atleast he will fight back with his witchery powers


Am a benin witch so you know , my witchery powers is what am using to deal with the yoruba people... And its working
I remeber the benin witch conquered the muslim yorubas in the olds, and if they were early yoruba christan before the British took over, we would have still use our witchery powers to subdue them.....

Nevertheless yorubas are cowards i wouldn't want to Refrence some renowned statements made by general abacha and ibb about the cowardice of the yorubas...

One thing i know is, and i quote, me as a bini man would rather be subjugated by a tribe like ibos from people of thesame political region( southern nigeria) than allow myself be subjected by illiterate from a different political region(jihadist

The only thing that defies the yorubas cursed coward trait, is when they about to hijack heads for money ritual they sudden find their courage and boldness from were their ancestors hid it.....

Edo are witches good i am one and so...

But

Yorubas are ritualist and born coward how about that

Just dont insult the benin people and don't drag the igbo into it, because i will so make the prideful yoruba of yours looks distasteful in the eyes of every tribe......

Keep the argument the validity between benin and ife


TAO11 am coming for you, this time i will force your emotions out once more and make you the animal you are, that very you moments you start spitting firey words from your mouth towards me

TAO11:
See my slave here again.

No, Oghene is from the U.S.

Cry me the world’s oceans.

cc: googi, Eastlink

You can start by proving it, and tells us how you knew it was ife,,

Please don't just come with quote from authors, and do your usual copy and paste, i want you to prove it yourself that ogene was ife, authors quote could also serves as backup too, if you need to create a thread for this fine.....

If you win, then everything am still on would be going against me,

Dont come here and be posting people errenous quotes or one statement made by oba eweka11

I will shun you out instantly.....

Ikywsots

gregyboy:
[s]You can start by proving it, and tells us how you knew it was ife,,

Please don't just come with quote from authors, and do your usual copy and paste, i want you to prove it yourself that ogene was ife, authors quote could also serves as backup too, if you need to create a thread for this fine.....

If you win, then everything am still on would be going against me,

Dont come here and be posting people errenous quotes or one statement made by oba eweka11

I will shun you out instantly.....[/s]

I know because “Ogun” has nothing to do with indigenous Edo history. The name ”Ogun” just doesn’t feature in your indigenous history, but in Ife’s indigenous history.
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Having established that “Ogun” was imposed on your fore-fathers (and mother) by the Yorubas because Edo lack any indigenous history of this personage:

Now you have to be very specific with what you mean by “start by proving it”.

Do you mean that I should provide you with viDeO rEcOrDiNg showing Ogun in Ife as king??

Or do you mean to see a eUrOpEaN’s eYe WiTnEsS rEpOrt of his meeting with Ogun in Ife when he ruled??

You have to be very specific and clear with your requests.
.
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But for sane people reading, Ife is the only place in the world with an indigenous history of an antique man named “Ogun” as its king.

The Edos must provide us with such indigenous Edo history of Ogun if they would insist absurdly on claiming him.

Cheers!

It has been obvious for a while that this guy came from a lineage of conquered Bini slaves. He rejected Ogiamen, Ogiso, Eweka, Oghene, Bini prominent gods including Ogun.

This man belongs to a bunch of Untouchables that could not find ways to escape or held back when the Urhobo and others flee. This man should be pitied, he is in denial and generational pain trying to rewrite his slave history. Pity this guy in misery.

gregyboy:




Lol, you just want me to insult yorubas dont you


Bunch of cowards,

I want to ask how did the yorubas save us from biafra, because if i can remember late general ogbemudia was an edo man, not a yoruba man

The yoruba man i think you are indirectly making Refrence to committed suicide with rat poison when thesame people he helped came for his head, a benin man witch would never do that to himself atleast he will fight back with his witchery powers


Am a benin witch so you know , my witchery is what am using to deal with the yoruba people... And its working
I remeber the benin witch conquered the muslim yorubas in the olds, and they were early yoruba christan before the British took over, we would have still use our witchery powers to subdue them.....

Nevertheless yorubas are cowards i wouldn't want to Refrence some renowned statements made by general abacha and ibb about the cowardice of the yorubas...

One thing i know is, and i quote, me as a bini man would rather be subjugated by a tribe like ibos from people of thesame political region( southern nigeria) than allow myself be subjected by illiterate from a different political region(jihadist

The only thing that defies the yorubas cursed coward trait, is when they about to hijack heads for money ritual they sudden find their courage and boldness from were their ancestors hid it.....

Edo are witches good i am one and so...

But

Yorubas are ritualist and born coward how about that

Just dont insult the benin people and don't drag the igbo into it, because i will so make the prideful yoruba of yours looks distasteful in the eyes of every tribe......

Keep the argument the validity between benin and ife


TAO11 am coming for you, this time i will force your emotions out once more and make you the animal you are, that very you moments you start spitting firey words from your mouth towards me

TAO11:
I know because “Ogun” has nothing to do with indigenous Edo history. The name ”Ogun” just doesn’t feature in your indigenous history, but in Ife’s indigenous history.
.
.
.
Having established that “Ogun” was imposed on your fore-fathers (and mother) by the Yorubas because Edo lack any indigenous history of this personage:

Now you have to be very specific with what you mean by “start by proving it”.

Do you mean that I should provide you with viDeO rEcOrDiNg showing Ogun in Ife as king??

Or do you mean to see a eUrOpEaN’s eYe WiTnEsS rEpOrt of his meeting with Ogun in Ife when he ruled??

You have to be very specific and clear with your requests.
.
.
.
But for sane people reading, Ife is the only place in the world with an indigenous history of an antique man named “Ogun” as its king.

The Edos must provide us with such indigenous Edo history of Ogun if they would insist absurdly on claiming him.

Cheers!

TAO11 has gone blind, my God could this be my witchery doings.....


Anyway oba ewuare before ascension to the throne was called prince ogun after his ascension he took upon the name ewuare....


Please don't get me started with your list of kings that has no dating or any record of such to establish its validity


TAO11 like i said i dont have your time, go home and go and do more research on benin history

Then come back and face me..... You hear

googi:
It has been obvious for a while that this guy came from a lineage of conquered Bini slaves. He rejected Ogiamen, Ogiso, Eweka, Oghene, Bini prominent gods including Ogun.

This man belongs to a bunch of Untouchables that could not find ways to escape or held back when the Urhobo and others flee. This man should be pitied, he is in denial and generational pain trying to rewrite his slave history. Pity this guy in misery.

Are you pained would let a 2by2 tribe insult an 100by100 coward tribe of yours like that

Am i too benin-centric

Follow up my post and stop using emotions to read,

gregyboy:
TAO11 has gone blind, my God could this be my witchery doings.....

Anyway oba ewuare before ascension to the throne was called prince ogun after his ascension he took upon the name ewuare....

Please don't get me started with your list of kings that has no dating or any record of such to establish its validity

TAO11 like i said i dont have your time, go home and go and do more research on benin history

Then come back and face me..... You hear

I am not sure why you need proof of proof — it’s right in front of you, you just have to be courageous enough to want to read.

Anyways back to the flogging I was dishing out to you, you keep shooting and stabbing yourself by yourself without realizing it. Let me show you how, kid.

(1): By your own “dumP” standard:

(a) Do you agree that Ewuare existed as a real human being??

If yes, then show me proof of his existence — that is: a eUrOpEaN eYewItNess aCcoUnt of a meeting with Ewuare (or a vIdEo RecOrDiNg of him if you please).

(b) Can you also please provide eUrOpEaN eYewItNess aCcoUnt to pRoOf that his name used to be “Ogun” (or a birth certificate if you please) ??

Thank you!
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(2) However, by historical standards:

(a) Ewuare(I)must have reigned sometimes prior to the end of the 1400s CE.

And IF your story that Ewuare’s name used to be “Ogun” IS NOT FALSE, then this confirms again that he was named after the original bearer of that name — an Ife king who reigned circa the mid-1000CE.

Again, notice how my position is confirmed from your own argument — that is: Benin Oba’s family is indeed descended from Ufe.


(b) Another evidence: Consider the fact that the ”Lamogun” greeting in Benin is unique to people whose family history trace their ancestral roots to Ile-Ife.

These families include the King’s family as well as the bronze casters’ family. — The traditional accounts confirm this consistently.

In fact, I may share an interview with the Chief Esogban of Benin where he confirmed these families’ ancestral history (including his own) as being from Ife.

Should I share the interview, or is this chief another old fool like Oba Ewuare(2) and his ancestors as you’ve always insisted that they are??

In sum:
(i) Why was Oba Ewuare(1) named after an Ife king who lived about four centuries earlier??

(ii) What does the word “Ogun” mean in Edo language in case you insist on stealing??

(ii) And you were correct when you said your people are not named after iDoLs. Only members of the Ife-Yoruba family in Benin can be so named after iDoLs. E.g. Oba Ewuare(1).

Cheers!

cc: googi

TAO11:
I am not sure why you need proof of proof — it’s right in front of you, you just have to be courageous enough to want to read.

Anyways back to the flogging I was dishing out to you, you keep shooting and stabbing yourself by yourself without realizing it. Let me show you how, kid.

(1): By your own “dumP” standard:

(a) Do you agree that Ewuare existed as a real human being??

If yes, then show me proof of his existence — that is: a eUrOpEaN eYewItNess aCcoUnt of a meeting with Ewuare (or a vIdEo RecOrDiNg of him if you please).

(b) Can you also please provide eUrOpEaN eYewItNess aCcoUnt to pRoOf that his name used to be “Ogun” (or a birth certificate if you please) ??

Thank you!
.
.
.
(2) However, by historical standards:

(a) Ewuare(I)must have reigned sometimes prior to the end of the 1400s CE.

And IF your story that Ewuare’s name used to be “Ogun” IS NOT FALSE, then this confirms again that he was named after the original bearer of that name — an Ife king who reigned circa the mid-1000CE.

Again, notice how my position is confirmed from your own argument — that is: Benin Oba’s family is indeed descended from Ufe.


(b) Another evidence: Consider the fact that the ”Lamogun” greeting in Benin is unique to people whose family history trace their ancestral roots to Ile-Ife.

These families include the King’s family as well as the bronze casters’ family. — The traditional accounts confirm this consistently.

In fact, I may share an interview with the Chief Esogban of Benin where he confirmed these families’ ancestral history (including his own) as being from Ife.

Should I share the interview, or is this chief another old fool like Oba Ewuare(2) and his ancestors as you’ve always insisted that they are??

In sum:
(i) Why was Oba Ewuare(1) named after an Ife king who lived about four centuries earlier??

(ii) What does the word “Ogun” mean in Edo language in case you insist on stealing??

(ii) And you were correct when you said your people are not named after iDoLs. Only members of the Ife-Yoruba family in Benin can be so named after iDoLs. E.g. Oba Ewuare(1).

Cheers!

cc: googi

Ewuare is known and he existed i keep telling you even before this time, you keep bringing silly explanations

Ewuare Conquered the people of ore, and ifon, oza areas close to benin which today those areas still have benin influence because of him

We have a beni chiefs that is appointed just to keep records of deceased oba and every alter is built for previous oba which makes it easy to recount and to keep datings


Unlike the yorubas which can forge any king, on their list

Are you expecting me to believe those king list up there showing ogun as a third ruler , mad woman

Ogun which i know in benin history is one of the son of osanubua to the benins he was the youngest and the strongest he used ironzthey to fight in battle, so calling the oba umogun means the strong one


They are some word that has no meaning it is just a coined only the bearer knows the meaning names like , eweka, ezoti, ogun, etc


The screenshot shows yoruba king list from 1954 and 1973, then today we are having an altered one totally different from the old ones


TAO11 go back and research and those likes given you by your coward brother should be withdraw instantly

gregyboy:
Ewuare is known and he existed i keep telling you even before this time, you keep bringing silly explanations

Per your “dumP” criterion, can you explain how we may know if this Ewuare is a real human and not a mYtHical figure?

Where is the eUrOpEAN eYeWiTnEss account which pRoVes that Ewuare is a human being and not a mYtHical figure??

Ewuare Conquered the people of ore, and ifon, oza areas close to benin which today those areas still have benin influence because of him

Per your “dumP” criterion, how do we know if this super story about Ewuare is real and not a myth?

Can you explain how we may know that Ewuare himself is a real human and not a mYtHical figure?

Where is the eUrOpEAN eYeWiTnEss account which pRoVes all these super story about this mythical Ewuare??

We have a beni chiefs that is appointed just to keep records of deceased oba and every alter is built for previous oba which makes it easy to recount and to keep datings

Per your dumP criterion, eUrOPEaN eYewItNesS account is what we must examine. So where is it??

Oops! I actually found it. Per your “dumP” criterion, didn’t Captain rOuPelL pRoVe that your BENIN CHIEFS actually fabricated at least 13 unreal mythical Benin Obas including the so-called Oba Ewuare(1)??

See: Roupell’s Officials (1898) cited in H.L. Roth (1903), p.6-7; also cited in R.E. Bradbury (1959) p. 266.

Unlike the yorubas which can forge any king, on their list.

Are you expecting me to believe those king list up there showing ogun as a third ruler , mad woman

Nope!

I have just demonstrated in the foregoing fragment of my comment how a eUrOPEAN account pRoVes that it is in fact BENIN CHIEFS (and not Yorubas) who fabricate a whopping 13 unreal mythical Benin Obas (including the so-called Oba Ewuare(1)) and then passed them off to the gullible Edos as though they were real humans. /s

Thank God for Captain RoUpElL.

Ogun which i know in benin history is one of the son of osanubua to the benins he was the youngest and the strongest he used ironzthey to fight in battle, so calling the oba umogun means the strong one

I am super glad that you just admitted unknowingly that there is no real human personage in Benin history who originally bore the name "Ogun". Only a mythical “Ogun” exists in the Edos’ worldview. Isn’t that correct?

Now let’s dig even this myth itself to see where it must have actually originated from by examining if the word “Ogun” itself has any meaning in the indigenous language of the Edo people. See the following fragment of comment.

They are some word that has no meaning it is just a coined only the bearer knows the meaning names like , eweka, ezoti, ogun, etc

Names aren’t coined from thin air, you dummy.

Names — whether cOinEd or un-cOiNeD (if those even have any meaning ) exist in a linguistic context; that is: they come from the reference frame of specific language(s). They don’t just pop-out from no where.

For example, the Bini account of how the name “Eweka” came about states that it resulted from the Yoruba phrase “owo mi ka”.

[Be careful not to tag your Obas as old fools again at this point because they accept this to be the case].

In fact, off the top of my head I can clearly tell (just as any typical Yoruba person) that the name “Ewuare” is from a pure unadulterated Yoruba phrase, viz. ”ewu á ré” meaning: “danger will bypass".

So, you have to stop citing your ignorance as an excuse/evidence for your supposition of meaninglessness for these names.

In a similar vein, the name “Ogun” is not meaningless as you’ve ignorantly assumed. In fact, it is simply dumb of you to have suggested that ?Ewuare (1)’s father gave his son a meaningless name.

In fact, the name "Ogun" could not possibly have any meaning from the language of the Edos for the simple reason that it is simply not an indigenous Edo word; hence your ignorance-induced absurd assumption that it does not have any meaning.

I am actually glad that you are honest enough here to have admitted that the word “Ogun” has no meaning to you in Edo language.

Rather, it is a Yoruba name of a real human who reigned as King in the second Ife dynasty. In other words, the word “Ogun” is not without meaning in the language of the Yoruba people.

The screenshot shows yoruba king list from 1954 and 1973, then today we are having an altered one totally different from the old ones

First of all, I blame your naiveness, ignorance and inferiority complex for this shallow understanding.

Had it not been so, you would have realized that while pre-literate royal courts have their own standard king-lists passed down over the centuries from generation to generation; historians on the other hand invest academic efforts into making the “best” sense of such “official” lists by attempting to harmonize them with other quite discrepant accounts floating around in the public sphere outside of the royal court.

By so doing, they attempt to present what they call the most likely picture of the historical state of affairs.

Having educated you on that, it now becomes clear why some variation in details may be noticed between what the Palace recites as its king-lists on one hand; and what a historian like Ojo Bada (who is cited in your screenshot of Ade Obayemi, 1979:158) publishes after an academic attempt to harmonize different accounts on another hand.

Regardless of the list one considers however, historians recognize “Ogun” to be one and the same person as “Obalufon Ogbogbodirin” (a.k.a. Obalufon 1 who is also said to be known by the cognomen "Osangangan Obamakin") rather than as distinct individuals. The Palace however separates the three names as distinct individuals.

In fact, the author of your own attachment also indicated this position of the historians in the chart shown on page 160 where he cites Wyndham to indicate that “Ogun” is one and the same person as “Obalufon Ogbogbodirin”. You just have to be willing to read.

Moreover, a linguistic clue as per the existence of the word "irin" (Yoruba for "iron") in the cognomen "Obalufon Ogogbodirin" also appears to further bolster the historians' position that "Obalufon Ogbogbodirin" is not another Ife king besides "Ogun", but rather one and the same individual.

Moreover, the name “Ogun” does have a meaning in Yoruba language but not in Edo language. You should always be aware and reminded of this.
.
.
.
I should add at this point as an appendix that the problem of chronology (from an academic perspective) is not unique to the Ife king list.

Instead, it is unique to all pre-literate societies, and as such is also present in the Edo king list even in a damaging fashion actually.

Unlike in the Ife king-list where Ogun is identified by historians to be one and the same person as Obalufon 1; there is no such reconciliation or explanation for the missing 13 mythical Benin Obas in the earliest Benin king-list compiled from the Benin Palace by Captain Roupell in 1898.

In order to further appreciate the length, breadth, and depth of this mess in Benin history, you may refer for a start to R.E. Bradbury’s “Chronological Problems in the Study of Benin History”, Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 1, No. 4, December 1959.

TAO11 go back and research and those likes given you by your coward brother should be withdraw instantly

You don’t read, so I’m not sure how to ask you to take your own advice instead of advicing someone who reads.

Also, it appears that you feel very pained by those likes I get just as some Igbos here too are pained by them. Get used to them though.

Cheers!

cc: googi, LegendHero, BabaRamota1980, MinorityOpinion.

TAO11:
Per your “dumP” criterion, can you explain how we may know if this Ewuare is a real human and not a mYtHical figure?

Where is the eUrOpEAN eYeWiTnEss account which pRoVes that Ewuare is a human being and not a mYtHical figure??

Per your “dumP” criterion, how do we know if this super story about Ewuare is real and not a myth?

Can you explain how we may know that Ewuare himself is a real human and not a mYtHical figure?

Where is the eUrOpEAN eYeWiTnEss account which pRoVes all these super story about this mythical Ewuare??

Per your dumP criterion, eUrOPEaN eYewItNesS account is what we must examine. So where is it??

Oops! I actually found it. Per your “dumP” criterion, didn’t Captain rOuPelL pRoVe that your BENIN CHIEFS actually fabricated at least 13 unreal mythical Benin Obas including the so-called Oba Ewuare(1)??

See: Roupell’s Officials (1898) cited in H.L. Roth (1903), p.6-7; also cited in R.E. Bradbury (1959) p. 266.

Nope!

I have just demonstrated in the foregoing fragment of my comment how a eUrOPEAN account pRoVes that it is in fact BENIN CHIEFS (and not Yorubas) who fabricate a whopping 13 unreal mythical Benin Obas (including the so-called Oba Ewuare(1)) and then passed them off to the gullible Edos as though they were real humans. /s

Thank God for Captain RoUpElL.

I am super glad that you just admitted unknowingly that there is no real human personage in Benin history who originally bore the name "Ogun". Only a mythical “Ogun” exists in the Edos’ worldview. Isn’t that correct?

Now let’s dig even this myth itself to see where it must have actually originated from by examining if the word “Ogun” itself has any meaning in the indigenous language of the Edo people. See the following fragment of comment.

Names aren’t coined from thin air, you dummy.

Names — whether cOinEd or un-cOiNeD (if those even have any meaning ) exist in a linguistic context; that is: they come from the reference frame of specific language(s). They don’t just pop-out from no where.

For example, the Bini account of how the name “Eweka” came about states that it resulted from the Yoruba phrase “owo mi ka”.

[Be careful not to tag your Obas as old fools again at this point because they accept this to be the case].

In fact, off the top of my head I can clearly tell (just as any typical Yoruba person) that the name “Ewuare” is from a pure unadulterated Yoruba phrase, viz. ”ewu á ré” meaning: “danger will bypass".

So, you have to stop citing your ignorance as an excuse/evidence for your supposition of meaninglessness for these names.

In a similar vein, the name “Ogun” is not meaningless as you’ve ignorantly assumed. In fact, it is simply dumb of you to have suggested that ?Ewuare (1)’s father gave his son a meaningless name.

In fact, the name "Ogun" could not possibly have any meaning from the language of the Edos for the simple reason that it is simply not an indigenous Edo word; hence your ignorance-induced absurd assumption that it does not have any meaning.

I am actually glad that you are honest enough here to have admitted that the word “Ogun” has no meaning to you in Edo language.

Rather, it is a Yoruba name of a real human who reigned as King in the second Ife dynasty. In other words, the word “Ogun” is not without meaning in the language of the Yoruba people.

First of all, I blame your naiveness, ignorance and inferiority complex for this shallow understanding.

Had it not been so, you would have realized that while pre-literate royal courts have their own standard king-lists passed down over the centuries from generation to generation; historians on the other hand invest academic efforts into making the “best” sense of such “official” lists by attempting to harmonize them with other quite discrepant accounts floating around in the public sphere outside of the royal court.

By so doing, they attempt to present what they call the most likely picture of the historical state of affairs.

Having educated you on that, it now becomes clear why some variation in details may be noticed between what the Palace recites as its king-lists on one hand; and what a historian like Ojo Bada (who is cited in your screenshot of Ade Obayemi, 1979:158) publishes after an academic attempt to harmonize different accounts on another hand.

Regardless of the list one considers however, historians recognize “Ogun” to be one and the same person as “Obalufon Ogbogbodirin” (a.k.a. Obalufon 1 who is also said to be known by the cognomen "Osangangan Obamakin") rather than as distinct individuals. The Palace however separates the three names as distinct individuals.

In fact, the author of your own attachment also indicated this position of the historians in the chart shown on page 160 where he cites Wyndham to indicate that “Ogun” is one and the same person as “Obalufon Ogbogbodirin”. You just have to be willing to read.

Moreover, a linguistic clue as per the existence of the word "irin" (Yoruba for "iron") in the cognomen "Obalufon Ogogbodirin" also appears to further bolster the historians' position that "Obalufon Ogbogbodirin" is not another Ife king besides "Ogun", but rather one and the same individual.

Moreover, the name “Ogun” does have a meaning in Yoruba language but not in Edo language. You should always be aware and reminded of this.
.
.
.
I should add at this point as an appendix that the problem of chronology (from an academic perspective) is not unique to the Ife king list.

Instead, it is unique to all pre-literate societies, and as such is also present in the Edo king list even in a damaging fashion actually.

Unlike in the Ife king-list where Ogun is identified by historians to be one and the same person as Obalufon 1; there is no such reconciliation or explanation for the missing 13 mythical Benin Obas in the earliest Benin king-list compiled from the Benin Palace by Captain Roupell in 1898.

In order to further appreciate the length, breadth, and depth of this mess in Benin history, you may refer for a start to R.E. Bradbury’s “Chronological Problems in the Study of Benin History”, Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 1, No. 4, December 1959.

You don’t read, so I’m not sure how to ask you to take your own advice instead of advicing someone who reads.

Also, it appears that you feel very pained by those likes I get just as some Igbos here too are pained by them. Get used to them though.

Cheers!

cc: googi, LegendHero, BabaRamota1980, MinorityOpinion.

Please keep your writeup short, please it will still end up giving your point, please keep it short, do you wear glasses,?
God

Nawa ooh, if you lengthy writeups doesnt bore you it bores majourity people even your fellow yoruba fans

You lied about this Wyndham guy i will post the screenshot


The scrrenshot shows list compiled by 3 different people and no one on the list was a compilation from the other

Wyndham guy who is a European that gave a different kinglsit from the two yorubas maybe fhe mistake was coming from him


Yoruba history is bleeped with myth that i dont even have time to start entagling it for them, but i dont want their bleeped up history near my beloved benin history.....

Anyway the benin kinglist chronology was to ascertain the dates of the benin various kings, atleast at the end of the article they came with a conclusions that from the arrival of the Europeans in benin that the kinglist was nearly accurate with almost correct dating

Ewuare was never a myth my friend, is grave tomb is still at isi were he was buried, when a monarchs die they are special priest who attends to them at their burial site, so as to easily summon their spirit if need be,

Have you walked around benin you will still see the burial site of many kings with their woooden carvings this are burial sites as old as 15century

Benin datings may not be correct but the oba list are more than correct

There is a statue of a woman who helped oba ewuare and her burial site is still at ring road anyone can go there and take dating samples, edo was also named after the servants that helped ewuare, and lastly ewaure burial site is still at isi till date

Benin knew the value of dating and documenting long ag, o they carefully made plans to carefully document their history, their animism worship made it necessary to call every past oba of benin spirt if need, so dey carefully secured thier burial site not to miss things up and dey also created a stool to keep the records of the past kings

I never also made statements that all evidence must involve European eyewitness atleast if there is one we will compare it to the local account, if there is non we will evaluate still

Again you made no sense in that lengthy writeup, if you bring that kinglsit of yours, claiming ogun was a ruler many of your yoruba brothers will depute it instantly, they are just calm because youre arguing with a nob yoruba

If you there it create a thread supporting it,

Tao11 am not impressed by you... You can do more

But as for now i can really validate who owns ogun worship and which tribe borrowed it from who we will keep reading, i hope my benin brothers can help me out

Etinosa1234, ghostwon, AreaFada2 and the others


Again the oba doesnt worship any deity at the palace he simply worships is deceased ancestors and perform ritual rites to everyone of them,


So if youre claiming oba worships ogun at the palace so he must be a yoruba or from ife, you failed at that point only commoners worship smaller idols because oba is the biggest idol

We know ogun is iron and iron is strength, calling oba umogun is a praise name to his strength


TAO11, i need something shocking from you, you are loosing out, i want you to validate benin-ife happened



Yoruba history is so mixup that oduduwa is still regsrded as a female deity... Lol

Why did benin volunteer to put themselves into this their bleeped history self

Sammy07:


Thanks for your honorable mention .
I just had to unfollow the thread I was just tired of their baseles claims

Good riddance to ... .......

gregyboy:




Lol, you just want me to insult yorubas dont you


Bunch of cowards,

I want to ask how did the yorubas save us from biafra, because if i can remember late general ogbemudia was an edo man, not a yoruba man

The yoruba man i think you are indirectly making Refrence to committed suicide with rat poison when thesame people he helped came for his head, a benin man would never do that to himself atleast he will fight back with his witchery powers


Am a benin edo witch so you know , my witchery powers is what am using to deal with the yoruba people... And its working
I remeber the benin witch conquered the muslim yorubas in the olds, and if they were early yoruba christan before the British took over, we would have still use our witchery powers to subdue them.....

Nevertheless yorubas are cowards i wouldn't want to Refrence some renowned statements made by general abacha and ibb about the cowardice of the yorubas...

One thing i know is, and i quote, me as a bini man slave would rather be subjugated by a tribe like ibos from people of thesame political region( southern nigeria) than allow myself be subjected by illiterate from a different political region(jihadist

The only thing that defies the yorubas cursed coward trait, is when they about to hijack heads for money ritual they sudden find their courage and boldness from were their ancestors hid it.....

Edo are witches good i am one and so...

But

Yorubas are ritualist and born coward how about that

Just dont insult the benin people and don't drag the igbo into it, because i will so make the prideful yoruba of yours looks distasteful in the eyes of every tribe......

Keep the argument the validity between benin and ife


TAO11 am coming for you, this time i will force your emotions out once more and make you the animal you are, that very you moments you start spitting firey words from your mouth towards me

A slave trying to be funky.

Seun BabaRamota1980, you are an envious dudu-skinned, dudu-smelling, omo dudu(compare the western meaning of "dudu" with the yeroba meaning and tell me these "people" aren't walking talking pieces of sh*t, literally lol), ndi ofe gbegiri, ewedu guzzling, amala-for-brains, ogbomoso brown roof refugee, and burnt cockroach lol

Na you de get time dey yarn all dis worthless epistle one after the other, woman wrapper, so called man lmfao

If it's not jealousing Igbos it's owambe, THAT is the long and short of the pathetic existence of the yaribanza "man", woman, and pikin

See the sum total of the historically lauded and "noble" ya.riba tradition and culture below

Cc:
Afonja
Ndi Ofe Mmanu
Skull Miner
Fulbe slave
Lagos No Man's Land tenant
Black Ape

CHAI!

TAO11:
Are you dumb or something??

Did you not read that your Igbo ancestors USED TO BE in Ife before they were kicked out to the Igbo land they now occupy in Eastern Nigeria??

So, how is that rocket science for you to know that the Igbos of today’s eastern Nigeria descended from the Yoruba people of Ife — according to Oba Adeyeye??

cc: LegendHero

What sort of logic is this? Haba!
I just hope you're joking.

gregyboy:
Please keep your writeup short, please it will still end up giving your point, please keep it short, do you wear glasses,? God

I am not to blame for having to churn out a devastating refutation to each and every dog-shit you’ve been heaping.

So, you must learn to get used to reading a detailed and historically dense text like mine, or you look-out for another pastime — maybe stargazing my comments from the background while I school other less-dumb Edo liars.

In fact, you should actually be grateful to me for being generous enough to block out some time from my schedule for the sole purpose of schooling you.

My exchange with you has always been (and will always be) one-sided because while you have everything to learn from it, I have absolutely nothing to learn from it. So be grateful.

Nawa ooh, if you lengthy writeups doesnt bore you it bores majourity people even your fellow yoruba fans

I am not sure why you think you can have your cake and eat it.

Just some comments ago you were ranting jealously about how my Yoruba brothers gave me several likes —for even more lengthy comments.

Yet in the same breath you now feel the need to complain on their behalf that they get bored from reading the same comments.

Is there any end (or at least some limit) to your contradictions? At this point, I think you have to make up your mind.

You lied about this Wyndham guy i will post the screenshot

Interesting!

I am excited to see this lie that gayboy (sorry) gregyboy has found in my foregoing comment in relation to Wyndham.

The scrrenshot shows list compiled by 3 different people and no one on the list was a compilation from the other

I am not sure how your specific comment here belie my earlier comment in relation to Wyndham.

May be you want to re-type your comment here in English language. That should help me see the point you’re making here. Thanks!

But for emphasis again in case you got confused earlier, my specific point was that the Palace’s “official” king-list treats the names “Ogun”, “Obalufon-Ogbogbodirin”, and “Osangangan-Obamakin” as three distinct individuals.

I then added that historians, on the other hand, have however come to recognize these three names as representing one and the same individual. I also took the time to briefly spell out the historians’ rationale.

I cited the same article (from which you took your screenshot) for an example of the historians’ position by alluding to “TABLE II” on page 160.

See the embedded image below for “TABLE II”:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12259495_af5b0856b36f45beaef93cce0911e462_jpeg_jpeg7eba68af3383a53b7f365e4e926a9c04

Having seen quite clearly that you must be spoon-fed in order to grasp very basic stuffs, my next block of comment will focus then on dumbing down the above table for you.

That should enable you see how this table actually l substantiate my assertion that historians do NOT regard “Ogun” and “Obalufon-Ogbogbodirin” to be different entities.

Wyndham guy who is a European that gave a different kinglsit from the two yorubas maybe fhe mistake was coming from him

Firstly, the above table shows the “genealogical relationships” between specifically named kings. This is therefore not a king-list per se as you’ve ignorantly assumed.

In fact, the phrase “genealogical relationships” is actually spelt out clearly as its title. I’m not sure how you managed to have missed it.

The significance of this phrase in the context of this table is that the reigning king is the son to whoever reigned just before him.

Secondly, there is absolutely zero evidence for your ignorant remark that each of the three charts shown in the table is “different” from one another.

As such, your assumption that Whyndham may have been mistaken is simply a self-highlight of your raw ignorance.

Having foregrounded the two foregoing backgrounds, I turn now to spoon-feeding you on examining the charts closely.

Starting with Wyndham’s, it is clear from his chart that he depicts Ogun as both Oduduwa’s son and Oduduwa’s immediate successor to the Ife throne.

Contrasting Wyndham’s ”Oduduwa—Ogun link” and his ”Ogun—Oranmiyan link” with rapt attentiveness, it becomes crystal clear that he indicated an unnamed intermediate king between Ogun and Oranmiyan.

But he makes no indication of any such intermediate king between Oduduwa and Ogun.

Now contrasting Wyndham’s chart with Ademakinwa’s (where all the four names from Oduduwa to Oranmiyan are expressly spelt out), the equation of Ogun and Obalufon-Ogbogbodirin as one and the same peronage then becomes a logically inevitable conclusion.

And like I have noted repeatedly, this is the position of the historians despite the Palace’s identification of the names “Ogun” and “Obalufon-Ogbogbodirin” as belongIng to distinct Ife kings.

To further bolster my assertion that this equation is the standard contemporary position of historical scholarship, it suffices to quote from the peer-reviewed audacious work of the distinguished and veteran historian of African and Yoruba history, Professor S.A. Akintoye:

“Oduduwa was succeeded by a man identified in the traditions as his son. ... Some traditions name this successor as Ogun, but the name by which he has come down most clearly is Obalufon Ogbogbodinrin ... Obalufon Ogbogbodinrin is said to have been a very impressive personality. His subjects said of him that he shone like a large sun in the sky; hence, his other cognomen Osangangan-Obamokin ... All traditions agree that his reign was long, and that it was peaceful most of the way.”

S.A. Akintoye, “A History of the Yoruba People”, Amalion Publishing, 2010, p.81.

Note that the bolded words in the above quote have a profound and significant impact on the overall import of the quote and its specific relevance to my point here.

Yoruba history is bleeped with myth that i dont even have time to start entagling it for them, but i dont want their bleeped up history near my beloved benin history.....

Are you talking about the myth of how Osanobua gave birth to the first Oba of Benin as his last born son?

Or how the Ogisos sky-dived without a parachute and landed at Benin-city round about?

Or how Oghene descended by means of a chain from heaven to sand-fill the earth which was flooded by Ame?

Or how a European managed to sneak himself into the quarters of the last Ogiso’s daughter (and perhaps defiled her) before ultimately supplanting the Ogiso to establish himself as the first Oba of Benin?

I can go on and on.

In the light of all the foregoing, it is this advised that you channel your energy appropriately and accordingly.
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But to educate you as part of my public service, historians the world over do not dismiss mythology the way an ignorant simpleton like yourself may be tempted to.

Instead, mythology proves often times to be highly invaluable to the historians as a huge corpus and repository of some kernel of historical facts which have simply been modified, distorted, and exaggerated through the passage of time, over the course of centuries.

Discerning this kernel of history which is hiding itself away within the nucleus of a mythological account (i.e. an account wrapped up by many centuries/layers of modifications, distortions, and exaggerations) is a central aspect of a historian’s job.

Anyway the benin kinglist chronology was to ascertain the dates of the benin various kings,

Nope, this is false. The mess in the Benin king-list is not merely about dates. It is deeper and graver than that.

For example, the earliest officially sanctioned Benin king-list features only twenty-three (23) successive Obas from Eweka(1) to Ovonramwen.

However, the present-day Benin king-list features thirthy-five (35) successive Obas from Eweka(1) to Ovonramwen.

It thus becomes clear that this is beyond the question of what date did who rule.

Instead, this is a more grave mess involving a whopping twelve (12) additional audio-Obas who seem to have been manufactured from thin air. /s

Furthermore, there are other conflicting king-lists which were compiled sometimes in-between these earliest list and latest list.

In fact, this mess of conflicting Benin king-list is also present within the Esekhurhe priesthood (i.e. those dedicated to memorizing the dynastic list and performing sacrifices to the past Obas) where one Esekhurhe’s list contradicts another Esekhurhe’s list.

atleast at the end of the article they came with a conclusions that from the arrival of the Europeans in benin that the kinglist was nearly accurate with almost correct dating

Are you actually drunk at this point, or are you simply grossly ignorant, or is your Edo lying nature kicking in already??

Captain Ernest Roupell was the first human being known have compiled a Benin king-list, and from palace sources. And that was in the year 1898. Moreover, his list is the very one noted above to have featured only twenty-three (23) Obas.

So, which fictitious European did you employ to compile a Benin king-list for you since the Europeans’ arrival in the late-1400/early-1500??

If you must lie, then please do so only when the conversation is not with me. You should know that I would never miss an opportunity to disgrace you for such blatant lie.

Ewuare was never a myth my friend, is grave tomb is still at isi were he was buried, when a monarchs die they are special priest who attends to them at their burial site, so as to easily summon their spirit if need be,

Interesting!!

So, a supposed grave which was made in a pre-literate context prior to modern times is the supporting evidence for your conclusion that a certain Ewuare was indeed buried there.

You have to try again lad. You are clearly not meeting your own dumP criterion right now. Neither are you meeting any logical criterion.

Have you walked around benin you will still see the burial site of many kings with their woooden carvings this are burial sites as old as 15century

Are you talking about wooden carvings which show the kings’ names engraved on them since the 15th century?? /s

Lad, you have to try again here as well because you’re simply yarning okpas per your own dumP criterion, or even a logical criterion.

Benin datings may not be correct but the oba list are more than correct

You have to stop deluding yourself and yet believing it.

The fundamental mess with the Benin king-list is not merely about dates is I have demonstrated.

Instead, it extends to how actual human beings are been manufactured from thin air in subsequent lists. Doesn’t it?? /s

There is a statue of a woman who helped oba ewuare and her burial site is still at ring road anyone can go there and take dating samples, edo was also named after the servants that helped ewuare, and lastly ewaure burial site is still at isi till date

How does this super-story prove that Ewuare is a real human being?

There are statues of mythical figures all over the globe. Does the mere existence of these statues then mean that they are representations of real historical personages?? Of course not.

And like I had noted earlier, an alleged burial site which was made in a pre-literate context prior to modern times doesn’t prove any point about anyone.

In sum, not only have you not met your own dumP criterion here, you also haven’t met a logical criterion.

Benin knew the value of dating and documenting long ag, o they carefully made plans to carefully document their history, their animism worship made it necessary to call every past oba of benin spirt if need, so dey carefully secured thier burial site not to miss things up and dey also created a stool to keep the records of the past kings

Listen, no contemporary of Ewuare wrote down a single thing about his name and his life event.

As such, whatever you have to put forward about his name and life comes originally from oral traditional accounts which of course must be used with caution.

Are you now willing to concede at this point that you have failed miserably to pRoVe Ewuare’s existence using your own dumP criterion of requesting for non-oral accounts??

I never also made statements that all evidence must involve European eyewitness atleast if there is one we will compare it to the local account, if there is non we will evaluate still

Really?? Is this gregyboy or someone else. My flogging seems to be really effective on you oo. Thank God! You seem to be finally recovering from your self-inflicted delusions.

To be clear:
(1) There is no European eyewitness written account of the Benin king called Ewuare(1).

(2) If what you meant here by ”local account” is a locally documented (non-EUrOpEaN) eyewitness account about the name and life of Ewuare(1), then I’m sorry to break your heart that such “local account” also does not exist.

(3) What exists instead as an evidence for Ewuare’s name and life is simply a type of evidence called oral traditional accounts.

In the light of this reality, are you now willing to accept this evidence-type, viz. oral traditions in order to reach the logical historical conclusion that Ewuare(1) must have existed; or are you willing to remain stuck in your delusions by continuing to regard Ewuare(1) as non-existent??

You can’t have your cake and eat it. The choice is yours. Make up your mind.

Again you made no sense in that lengthy writeup, if you bring that kinglsit of yours, claiming ogun was a ruler many of your yoruba brothers will depute it instantly, they are just calm because youre arguing with a nob yoruba

Anyone (whether Yoruba or non-Yoruba) who knows anything at all about Ife’s history and its kings would have known already knows that Ogun is an early Ife ruler in the second dynasty of Ife.

This conclusion about Ogun remains valid regardless of the position one adopts — whether one adopts the academic position that Obalufon-Ogbogbodirin is simply a cognomen of King Ogun; or the traditional position which treats the two names as belonging to distinct Ife kings.

In summary:
(1) Ogun’s reign as king in Ife corresponds, in the light of contemporary historical estimation, to the mid/late-1000s CE.

(2) Ewuare(1)’s reign on the other hand corresponds, in the light of contemporary historical estimation, to sometimes around the mid/late-1400s CE.

(3) The word “ògún” when broken down into its component parts has absolutely no meaning in the language of the Edo people. However, it does have a clear meaning in the language of the Yoruba people.

In conclusion then, even IF your claim (that Ewuare’s pre-coronation name was Ogun) is a true claim; this would prove two things in the light of the above-listed points:

(i) That Ewuare was not the first or original bearer of the name “Ogun” as the dates have shown clearly.

(ii) That Ewuare is connected in both race and language to the Ife-Yoruba subgroup to which the original bearer of the name actually belongs — especially as the name has absolutely no meaning in Edo language.

Tao11 am not impressed by you... You can do more

Sounds like what you wrote when you ran out of your usual incoherent ideas.

But as for now i can really validate who owns ogun worship and which tribe borrowed it from who we will keep reading, i hope my benin brothers can help me out

Of course, at this point you should be able to “validate” that considering the schooling you’ve enjoyed up to this point.

In fact, the following are some clear, direct, and logical questions for you to ponder in order to help yourself “validate” that:

(a) Is there any Benin traditional account which states that Ewuare (mid/late-1400s) was named Ogun until his coronation??

(b) Is there any Ife traditional account which states that an Oduduwa’s successor named Ogun (mid/late-1000) ruled Ife as king??

(c) Does the word “ogun” (when broken down into its component parts) have any meaning in the language of the Edo people??

(d) Does the word “ogun” (when broken down into its component parts) have any meaning in the language of the Yoruba people??

Etinosa1234, ghostwon, AreaFada2 and the others

Hello y’all!

Oops! ghostwon actually deleted this account.

Again the oba doesnt worship any deity at the palace he simply worships is deceased ancestors and perform ritual rites to everyone of them,

Well, Ososomaoye (at the least) lives right inside his palace.

I wonder from whom else Ososomoye receives worship if not from its custodians — your Obas?

Moreover, I actually know about your Obas worshipping their ancestors though. Oba Eweka(2), for instance, informs us through H.L. Ward-Price that he (Oba Eweka) must pay homage every morning at dawn to his Great-Lord (Oghene) who lives in Ife.

So if youre claiming oba worships ogun at the palace so he must be a yoruba or from ife, you failed at that point only commoners worship smaller idols because oba is the biggest idol

This has been debunked into pieces in my preceding blocks of comments where I demonstrated why Ewuare(1) is in fact of Yoruba ancestry considering his supposed pre-coronation name “Ogun”.

I’ve also shown already that Eweka(2) does indeed worship not only Ososmoye (at the least), but also his Oghene who lives in Ife.

We know ogun is iron and iron is strength, calling oba umogun is a praise name to his strength

Eba, Fufu, Akpu, etc. also give strength. So they can be regarded as praise titles for your Oba, right? More like Omo N’Eba!

Stop making dumb fraudulent comments. You have already admitted earlier that “Ogun” has no meaning in the Edo language. So, your attempt at fraud is simply pointless.

TAO11, i need something shocking from you, you are loosing out, i want you to validate benin-ife happened

More like you requesting me to shock you by proving to you that Nairaland exists.

Do your own delusions not shock you enough??

cc: LegendHero, BabaRamota1980, MinorityOpinion, googi.

Obalatule:
Binis where actually an offshoot of an ancient Igbo group which also included the"Isu" group of Igbos and the ARO,...The ISU and idu(Bini) and Aro along with two other relatives which included the igala ancestors, that's why Igbos,Bini and igala use the word "isee" to seal prayers signifying the original five branches.

Bini are a branch of the Igbo race. They left Nri under the leadership of Igodo to found Igodomigodo due to nso - ani. Hence Bini language and culture is similar to Igbo.

The Bini Igue Festival is borrowed from Nri Iguaro festival.

The Bini 4 days of the week - Eken, Afon, Orien, Nkwon were borrowed from Nri.

The Bini succession by primogeniture is an adaptation of the Okpalabisi Igbo system that grants total rights of succession to the first son.

The customary Bini breaking of Kolanut is also derived from Nri. 'Onye wetere oji wetere ndu'.

The New Yam festival is a carry over from Nri. It is still celebrated with pomp and pageantry in Benin.

The Ogiso dynasty of Igodo migodo is Igbo. Ogie - so means leader who must be followed.

Till date Nri Priests are important in the coronation functions of the Obas of Benin.

The word OKORO which is the finest specimen of the male species amongst Igbos, also means Prince in Bini.

Most people don't know that even Bini counting is very similar to Igbo counting.

Do you know that the Bini still use the Igbo word EGO, EGHO for money.

Many Bini towns still bear their Igbo names till date eg ISIUWA, IGUOBAZUWA.

The Benin Prince called Oduduwa /Izoduwa /Imaduwa who left to Ife just 900 years ago bears his Igbo name and its meanings on leadership is clear to every Igbo.

This post is just oozing with stinky ignorance.

Rely less on imagination when dealing with history please

Karanka:

What sort of logic is this? Haba!
I just hope you're joking.

I actually don’t believe that. I was simply teasing the boundary set by the same lad I was replying to. You should read the comments leading to that.

He believes that the Igbo people of south eastern Nigeria initially lived in Ile-Ife. His authority for this claim is the reigning Ooni of Ife, Oba Adeyeye.

So teasing the boundary would be to make him realize that this same people now no longer live in Ife.

As such they must have been expelled and disgraced out of their supposed initial territory.

Obalatule:
You are off-point, Binis where an offshoot of early Igbo ancestors, Building an empire later-on has nothing to do with it...... Through out all their conquering and wars they never looked east towards the Igbos,but they were always traversing yerobaland with impunity..have you asked yourself why?

Benin were constantly conquering igbo lands, lands that they never lost once conquered unlike the more constantly rebelling lands to the west.

Today you have Ika and several other original igbo speaking people who had been under the Bini for so long they spit if you call them igbo

Only reason Bini did not encroach further east was the Niger river. Which served as a natural defence for more eastward igbos, if the historiography of Onitcha [Azikwe 1930] is to be taken seriously then we can agree that after Onitcha people fled from their previous location because of Bini, Bini found it unresourceful to invest in an invading naval force to recapture them

Dedetwo:


Ndigbo are not loudmouthed as your forbearers and will never give silly narratives of Igbo people different from what is\are obtained on the ground.
Till today, Igala has no inches of Igbo land or any Igbo land is incorporated under Emirates as Igala land does. Even the stools of rulership in Igala land have been Islamized because it was identity mark of Caliphate which conquered all places and placed them under the Emirates. The Caliphate never had a foot hold in places where they did battle with Akagbe and collective Igbo warriors in Idoma and Igala lands. There was no Oba of Benin who wanted to entangle with Agbor talk less large collective of Igbo warriors beyond Agbor. When Yari.ba peeps were driven out of Oyo Ile, the traces of the wounds littered all the over the places including Oshogbo and Ogbomosho. Offa still remains a total and unconditional testament to the doctrine of Sokoto Caliphate. No such sign was even remotely registered in the smallest village in the northern most outskirts of Igbo land.

you folks are so empty and lacking in historical records of your own that you must also refer to Yoruba historical events.
See all the Yoruba history you think you know, if only you knew your history like this

It must suck to not have historical records of your own

The post was longer than typical, so here is the response to the concluding parts of your comment

gregyboy:
Yoruba history is so mixup that oduduwa is still regsrded as a female deity... Lol

No it is your ignorance that is actually so assorted.

The traditions are extremely clear that Oduduwa was deified after his reign in Ife.

While virtually all the Yoruba kingdoms deified Oduduwa as a male deity, the western Yoruba kingdom of Ketu (according to this specific tradition) deified Oduduwa as a female deity.

In fact, the Edo kingdom of Benin deified Oduduwa as both a male deity and a female deity.

Having said that, you have once been caught falsely claiming that Olokun is deified in Benin worship as both a male deity and a female deity.

It took my intervention to clarify to you that while the Yorubas introduced only the male deification of Olokun to the Edos, the Yorubas themselves continue to venerate both a male deification and a female deification of Olokun.

Now just as is the case with Olokun, it is absurd then to conclude from the foregoing instances of Oduduwa‘s deification variety that the original bearer of the name must have been both a male and a female personage; or that there is some confusion about which he really was while he lived.

No! Deification may obviously take any gender form regardless of the actual gender of the deified individual during their lifetime.
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Having clarified the distinction between a deity and the actual human whose name it bears; what seems most likely to have originally precipitated the deification of Oduduwa as a female deity in some Yoruba liturgies and traditions is the existence of an actual Yoruba goddess by a similar name — the goddess named ”Odudu” who is regarded as the mother of the deities, that is: Eye Umole.

In relation to the Yoruba goddess “Odudu”, Professor S.A. Akintoye writes, citing A.B. Ellis (1894:40), as follows:

“A goddess named Odudu was regarded as the wife of Orisanla and mother of the gods (Eye umole or Iya imole). In certain liturgies and localities, the name of this goddess later became confused with the name Oduduwa, the name of an important male personage in later Yoruba history. (Oduduwa was later deified as a male god.) Odudu is still worshipped in some places in Yorubaland as Odudu, not Oduduwa; Odudu’s shrine and rituals still exist in Ado (in Ekiti), where she is worshipped as mother of all mothers and their little children*”

S.A. Akintoye, “A History of the Yoruba People”, Amalion Publishing, 2010, p.32.

Why did benin volunteer to put themselves into this their bleeped history self

They did at the very instant they sent to Ife requesting an Ife-Yoruba king to come over and help direct their local affairs after their prior monarchy had plunged into some profound disorder.

cc: BabaRamota1980, macof, LegendHero, MinorityOpinion, googi.

Dedetwo:


Ndigbo are not loudmouthed as your forbearers and will never give silly narratives of Igbo people different from what is\are obtained on the ground.
Till today, Igala has no inches of Igbo land or any Igbo land is incorporated under Emirates as Igala land does. Even the stools of rulership in Igala land have been Islamized because it was identity mark of Caliphate which conquered all places and placed them under the Emirates. The Caliphate never had a foot hold in places where they did battle with Akagbe and collective Igbo warriors in Idoma and Igala lands. There was no Oba of Benin who wanted to entangle with Agbor talk less large collective of Igbo warriors beyond Agbor. When Yari.ba peeps were driven out of Oyo Ile, the traces of the wounds littered all the over the places including Oshogbo and Ogbomosho. Offa still remains a total and unconditional testament to the doctrine of Sokoto Caliphate. No such sign was even remotely registered in the smallest village in the northern most outskirts of Igbo land.

Oyo Ile and other Yoruba townships were sacked by Afonja, not Fulani. Fulani did not wage a war against Yoruba, Afonja did. Amongst Afonja warriors were Fulani. At Odo Otin when Offa and Ibadan repulsed Afonja warriors Fulanis were severely dealt with. In fact Yoruba warlords in Afonja squad were not allowed to escape they were summarily slaughtered for their treachery against the homeland. Back in Ilorin Alimi carried out a successful coup and killed Afonja. Yoruba homeland were still embroiled in internecine war and ignored to recover Ilorin. That error led to Alimi instituting himself as leader of the faithful in Ilorin.
In other places Fulani rule in Nigeria it was done so by an act of invasion and conquest, Yoruba is an exception to that.

If Igala could invade and conquer Ibo, imagine if Fulani had invaded your land, you will be facing Kaabah to pray today, your entire land. You had no State Army or force to repel Fulani like Nupe and Igala did. You can beat chest to the contrary but fact is fact, cannot be eroded or displaced by any chestbeating.

TAO11:
I am not to blame for having to churn out a devastating refutation to each and every dog-shit you heap without leaving a single one un-trashed.

So, you must learn to get used to reading a detailed and historically dense text like mine or you look out for another pastime — maybe stargazing me from the background while I school other less-dumb Edo liars.

In fact, you should actually be grateful to me for being generous enough to blocking out some time from my schedule for the sole purpose of schooling you.

My exchange with you has always been (and will always be) one-sided because while you have everything to learn from it, I have absolutely nothing to learn. So be grateful.

I am not sure why you think you can have your cake and eat it.

Just some comment you were jealous that my Yoruba brothers gave me several likes for even more lengthy comments.

Yet in the same breath you feel the need to complain on their behalf illogically that’s they get bored from the same comments.

Is there any end or at least limit to your contradictions?

Interesting! I am excited to see this lie that gayboy (sorry) gregyboy has found in my foregoing comment where I alluded to Wyndham.

I am not sure how your specific comment here belie my earlier comment in relation to Wyndham. May be you want to re-type this in English language. That should help me see your point here.

But for emphasis again in case you got confused, my comment in this regard was that the Palace’s “official” king-list treats the names “Ogun”, “Obalufon-Ogbogbodirin”, and “Osangangan Obamakin” as three distinct individuals.

I then added that historians, on the other hand, have come to recognize these three names as representing one and the same personage rather than three distinct individuals. I also took time to briefly spell out the historians’ rationale.

I cited the same article (from which you took your screenshot) as an example of this position of the historians by alluding to the “TABLE II” on page 160 —Whyndham’s chart particularly. See the embedded image below for the table.

[img][/img]

Given that it has become very obvious that you have to be spoon-fed to grasp very basic stuffs, my next block of comment will then focus on dumbing down the chart for you so you can see how it actually substantiates my assertion that historians do NOT regard “Ogun” and “Obalufon Ogbogbodirin” to be different personages.

As is to be expected of an ignoramus like you, the content of that basic simple chart has to be dumbed down for you to grasp what it says. And I will do just that.

Firstly, this specific table — “TABLE II” — shows the “genealogical relationship” between the specifically named kings. This is not particularly a king-list as you’ve ignorantly assumed.

In fact, the phrase “genealogical relationship” is actually spelt out clearly. I’m not sure how you managed to have missed it.

Now to break this phrase down for you as it is used in this context, it signifies a king reigning just right after his own father’s reign.

This is to contrast with the fact that some of the kings reigned NOT following their father’s reign, but following their uncle’s reign for example.

Secondly, there is absolutely zero evidence for your ignorant remark that each of the three charts is “different” from the other.

As such, your assumption that Whyndham may have been mistaken is simply a self-highlight of your gross ignorance.

Having foregrounded the two foregoing backgrounds, I turn now to spoon-feeding you on how to examine the charts closely.

Starting with Wyndham’s, it is clear from his chart above that he depicts Ogun as the king who not only succeeded Oduduwa directly, but one who is also his son.

Comparing his Oduduwa—Ogun link with his Ogun—Oranmiyan link, his indication of an unnamed intermediate king connecting Ogun to Oranmiyan becomes very obvious. And he obviously indicates no such intermediation between Oduduwa and Ogun.

Now contrasting Wyndham’s chart with Ademakinwa’s (where all the four names from Oduduwa to Oranmiyan are clearly spelt out), the equation of Ogun and Obalufon Ogbogbodirin as one and the same personage thus becomes a logically inevitable conclusion.

And like I have noted repeatedly, this is the position of the historians even though the Palace has its own different position.

To further bolster my assertion about this equation as the position of the historians, it suffices to quote from the peer-reviewed work of a distinguished veteran historian of African and Yoruba history, Professor S.A. Akintoye:

“Oduduwa was succeeded by a man identified in the traditions as his son. ... Some traditions name this successor as Ogun, but the name by which he has come down most clearly is Obalufon Ogbogbodinrin ... Obalufon Ogbogbodinrin is said to have been a very impressive personality. His subjects said of him that he shone like a large sun in the sky; hence, his other cognomen Osangangan-Obamokin ... All traditions agree that his reign was long, and that it was peaceful most of the way.”

S.A. Akintoye, “A History of the Yoruba People”, Amalion Publishing, 2010, p.81. [The bolded words carry profound weights].

Are you talking about the myth of how Osanobua gave birth to the fiat king of Benin as his last born son?

Or how the Ogisos sky-dived without a parachute and landed at Benin-city round about?

Or how Oghene descended by means of a chain from heaven to sand-fill the earth which was flooded by Ame?

Or how a European managed to sneak himself into the quarters of the last Ogiso’s daughter perhaps raping her, and ultimately supplanting the Ogiso to establish the Oba dynasty as the first Oba of Benin?

I can go on and on. In the light of the foregoing, it is advised that you may want to channel your energy appropriately and accordingly.
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But to educate you as part of my public service, historians the world over do not simply dismiss mythology an ignorant simpleton like yourself would think they do.

Mythology often serve to historians as a huge corpus and repository of certain kernel of actual historical information that has been modified, distorted, and exaggerated through the passage of time.

Discerning the kernel of history hidden away within the nucleus of a mythological account (which has been fleshed by many centuries-layers of exaggerations and distortions) is a central aspect of a historian’s job.

Nope, this is false. The Benin king-list problem is not mere about dates. It is deeper and graver than that.

For example, the earliest officially sanctioned Benin king-list features twenty-three (23) successive Obas from Eweka(1) to Ovonramwen.

However, today the Binis’ king-list features thirthy-five (35) successive Obas from Eweka(1) to Ovonramwen.

So, it is clear that this is beyond the question of what date did who rule. This is more grave as it involves a whopping twelve (12) audio Obas who seem to have been manufactured from thin air.

Furthermore, there are other conflicting king-lists compiles sometimes in-between these earliest and latest ones.

In fact, this conflict is also present within the Esekhure priesthood (i.e. the priesthood of those dedicated to memorizing the dynastic list and sacrificing to the past Obas) since it has been observed that one Esekhurhe’s list contradicts another’s.

Are you actually drunk at this point, or you’re simply grossly ignorant, or your Edo lying nature is kicking in??

Captain Ernest Roupell was the first person to compile a king-list of Benin Obas, and that was in the year 1898.

So, which nonsense European was compiling Benin king-list since the Europeans’ arrival in the late-1400/early-1500.

If you must lie, then be reminded that it is I whom you’re talking to. You should have known that I wouldnt miss the slightest opportunity to disgrace you. So, do not lie again going forward. Okay?

Interesting!! So, a supposed grave which was made in a pre-literate context prior to modern times is your supporting evidence for your conclusion that a certain Ewuare was indeed buried there. You have to try again, you are clearly not meeting your own dumP criterion yet or even a logical criterion.

Wooden carvings showing their name as written from the 15th cEnTury?? You also have to try again here as well. You are yarning opaz both as per your dumP criterion, or even a logical criterion.

You have to stop deluding yourself and yet believing it. The problem is not merely about dates, it actually extends to touch on how human beings are been manufactured from thin air, isn’t it?

How does this super story prove that Ewuare is a real human being?

There are many statues of mythical figures all over the world.

Also, if you must be willing to make a claim (including a moronic claim like this one), then you must also be willing to prove your own claim. There isn't aNyOne” else whom you must be hoping on to that for you, okay?

In sum, not only have you not met your own dumP criterion, you haven’t met a logical criterion here.

No contemporary of Ewuare wrote down a single thing about his name and life event. As such, anything you put forward is called oral tradition which is subject to historical scrutiny.

Are you willing to concede at this point that you have failed to prove Ewuare’s existence using your own dumP criterion of requesting for other than oral accounts — that is, written eyewitness account.

Really?? Is this gregyboy or someone else. My flogging seem to be really effective oo.

To be clear:
(1) There is no European eyewitness written account of the Benin king called Ewuare(1).

(2) If what you meant by ”local account” is a local non-EUrOpEaN eyewitness wrotten account about the Benin king called Ewuare(1), then I’m sorry to break your heart even that too does not exist.

(3) What exist then as as evidence for Ewuare’s life is simply a type of evidence called local oral accounts.

Are you now willing to accept this type of evidence namely oral traditions (of course with caveats and cautions) and then accept accept the historical conclusion that Ewuare(1) must have existed; or are you willing to remain in your delusions and thus accept that Ewuare(1) does not exist??

You can’t have your cake and eat it. The choice is now yours!

Anyone (whether Yoruba or non-Yoruba) who knows anything at all about Ife’s history and its kings already knows that Ogun is an early Ife ruler in the second dynasty regardless of the position they adopt — i.e. academic or traditional view as I have already demonstrated.

(1) Ogun’s reign as king in Ife corresponds, in the light of contemporary historical estimation, to the mid/late-1000s CE.

(2) Ewuare(1)’s reign on the other hand corresponds, in the light of contemporary historical estimation, to sometimes around the mid/late-1400s CE.

(3) The word “ògún” when broken down into it component parts has absolutely no meaning in the language of the Edo people. However, it does have a clear meaning in the language of the Yoruba people.

In conclusion then, even if your claim (that Ewuare’s pre-coronation name used to be Ogun) is a true claim; this claim proves two things in the light of the foregoing three points:

(i) That Ewuare was not the first or original bearer of the name “Ogun” as the dates have shown clearly.

(ii) That Ewuare is connected in both race and language to the Ife-Yoruba subgroup to which the original bearer of the name belongs — especially as the name has absolutely no meaning in Edo language.

Sounds like what you wrote when you ran out of ideas.

Of course at this point you should be able to “validate” that considering the schooling you’ve enjoyed up to this point.

In fact, some clear, direct, and logical questions to ponder in order to help yourself “validate” that are as follows:

(a) Is there any Benin traditional account which states that Ewuare (mid/late-1400s) was named Ogun until coronation??

(b) Is there any Ife traditional account which states that one of Oduduwa’s heirs named Ogun (mid/late-1000) ruled Ife as king??

(c) Does the word “ogun” (when broken down into its component parts) have any meaning in the language of the Edo people??

(d) Does the word “Ogun” (when broken down into its component parts) have any meaning in the language of the Yoruba people??

Hello y’all! ghostwon has actually deleted this account.

Well, Ososomaoye (at least) lives right inside his palace. I wonder from whom else it receives worship? From the people?

Moreover, I know about him worshipping his ancestors though. Oba Eweka(2) informs us through H.L. Ward-Price that he (Oba Eweka) must pay homage every morning at dawn to his Great-Lord (Oghene) who lives in Ife.

This has been debunked in preceding blocks of comment where I showed why he is in fact, Yoruba via his supposed pre-coronation name “Ogun”, and where I showed that he does worship both a palace idol as well as his Oghene who lives in Ife.

Eba, Fufu, and Akpu also give strength. So they can be regarded as strength, right?

Stop making dumb fraudulent comments. You have already admitted earlier that “Ogun” has no meaning in the Edo language.

More like you requesting me to shock you by proving to you that Nairaland exists.

Does your delusions not give you enough shock??

No it is your ignorance which is so assorted.

The traditions are extremely clear that Oduduwa was deified after his reign.

While almost all the kingdoms deified Oduduwa as a male deity, the far western Yoruba kingdom of Ketu (according to this tradition here) deified Oduduwa as a female deity.

In fact, you have been caught before trying to falsely claim that Olokun is deified as Benin worship as having both a male and a female manifestation.

It took my intervention to shut you down as a lier by clarifying that while the Benin were introduced only to the male deification of Olokun, the Yorubas as the indigenous owners have both.

They did at the very instant they sent to Ife requesting for a civilized king to direct their local affairs.

Again total rubbish from you, i dont get the mention when you quote me, so i endup searching for it myself Before i can see it


Lol, olokun is a male and female deity they are both two individual male and female living together probably husband and wife, i have served in olokun court as a boy, i know this fact, Oduduwa is a diety and some yorubas still refer him as a diety who never existed he wasnt defied as you claim..... The ketu people knows this that he was a mere diety who never breathed if he existed his gender wouldn't be mistaken by them


The Wyndham guy gave is own false list, probably because is a white guy his list became accepted and was posted on wiki....i have read through that article nowere did they equate Obalufon as ogun, in the article they even



I have argued on ife kinglist before now, and even checked the Wikipedia kinglist few years back nothing was including ogun at the list.... Lol


Your mouth is running like tap, that very moment you get so emotional because am bursting your bubbles, but at thesame time you're trying not to show it......

You still didnt prove how ogun belongs to the ife or yoruba people nether have i proven too ogun is indegenious to benin, but i believe our ventures into yorubas might have taken it there or brought it, it is still not yet proven by me, but claiming oromiyan brought it, makes you a dummie and a desperado, oromiyan coming to benin was a lie, you posted a quote dating from 1903, supporting the fact it was eweka that came from ife not oromiyan here you are going against your quote... Lol TAO11, or should i call you taolesbian maybe taoles will do

Note: ife is a staged political compilation to unite yorubas under one political umbrella, all yorubas know this, but wouldn't want to agree not to cause disunity

Ewuare ancestral alter is still in the palace you don't believe ewaure but you making reference to the idol brought by ewuare himself



Picture one showing ogun as one of the 16 elders, and not as a king TAO11 desperado

Pucture 2 shows the author saying the arrangement and names of the various ife kings are not accurate and shouldn't be taking seriously

Picture 3 tells that the ogiso dynasty was a myth that keeps the yoruba masturbating... Lol if ogiso dynasty was not real like i and scholars believe then which monarchy did the yoruba or oromiyan take power from and what was the title of the benin king then.....

Yoruba are benin wanna be funny but true

Pic 4 is helping me tell TAO11 that Roupell's benin king list was incomplete because he didn't ask the right people but instead commoners in benin, so stop masturbating in Roupell's kinglist... Lol