davidinchrist:
It's about time we stopped fooling ourselves along with great Pastors and Church founders on the broad way leading straight to hell.

One terrible thing about many churches and pastors is the tricky ways they form a doctrine using a part of the scripture, but ignoring other important parts that they don't like. This is why I RUN from them: "Blind leaders of the blind", as Jesus called them.

Actually, the gospel of Christ has got two major parts: Grace and Truth (John 1:14,17). Those that want to justify their sins will ONLY focus on verses of the scripture that emphasizes Grace and grace alone (what Jesus has done). But how about the Truth (Obedience to the words of Jesus: what we must DO).

John 1:17 KJV
For the law was given by Moses, but GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.

John 8:21,24 KJV
Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall DIE IN YOUR SINS: whither I go, ye cannot come.

[24] I said therefore unto you, that ye SHALL die in your SINS: for IF YE BELIEVE NOT that I am he , ye shall DIE in your SINS.

John.14.15 - "If you love me, obey my commandments.

John 15:14 KJV
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Peace with you.

shadeyinka:

The above still doesn't change the fact that by GRACE we are saved!
Eph 2:8-9:
"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But the second part of it show us WHY we were saved
Eph 2:10:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them."

We were saved to do Good Works according to the rule of God in righteousness.

2Tim 2:5:
"And if a person competes as an athlete, he is not awarded the victor’s crown unless he competes according to the rules."

The Lord knows those who are His: let fake Christians continue to justify immorality!
2Tim 2:19:
"Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

davidinchrist:



Friend, did you really get the main point or you just wanted to argue?

The thing is the gospel of Grace without Truth (obedience to the Words of Jesus) is a great deception of many a great Pastor and Church, leading millions to hell. That's the point.

I never said grace was out of it.

Hence:
*The Gospel = Grace + Truth (obedience) John 1:14,17

A Gospel without Truth but grace = Worldly Christianity

A Gospel without grace but truth = Legalism, Phariseesism (life under the law).

THE TWO MUST GO TOGETHER to be Balanced or Perfect, not otherwise.

Peace with you.


Harshirama: I think you might need to see this too; if not, just ignore. Thanks.

Harshirama:


This is your idea is somehow. First there's nothing like wordly christianity. That's joining two opposites together. Christianity already means being like Christ. Maybe the right term to use is carnal.
Lastly, what leads men to hell is unbelief in the gospel. A

davidinchrist:


Okay, sorry to have troubled you: goodbye.

In passing:


1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

davidinchrist:



Friend, did you really get the main point or you just wanted to argue?

The thing is the gospel of Grace without Truth (obedience to the Words of Jesus) is a great deception of many a great Pastor and Church, leading millions to hell. That's the point.

I never said grace was out of it.

Hence:
*The Gospel = Grace + Truth (obedience) John 1:14,17

A Gospel without Truth but grace = Worldly Christianity

A Gospel without grace but truth = Legalism, Phariseesism (life under the law).

THE TWO MUST GO TOGETHER to be Balanced or Perfect, not otherwise.

Peace with you.


Harshirama: I think you might need to see this too; if not, just ignore. Thanks.

shadeyinka:

Did I write anything contrary to what you've just said above especially the @bolded

If there is any objection I have, it's about labelling the justification of sin by "Christians" as adherents of "Gospel of the gospel Grace". The justification of sin by "Christians" isn't the gospel of grace but a gospel of deception. How can a person claim he is born again without a CHANGE in nature? How can a person claim he is of Christ yet justifying SIN? How can a new creature exhibit old CHARACTERS?

Indeed, the bottom line is that the LORD knows those who are His.

A true disciple is known by continuing in the words of Christ. Anyone who turns back has never known Christ.

John 8:31:
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;"

1Jn 2:19:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

So bro, I argue Not with you. I only stated what the TRUE gospel of grace mean. It is certainly NOT a licence to sin. It is a knowing that Christ died to save whoever will receive Him. It is the work done by Christ not me. I am not saved by my effort as it was Christ who died for an unworthy fellow like me and gave me His spirit by which I am transformed into a NEW creature who is NOT comfortable with SIN and who lives to please Him who paid the most costly price to purchase my soul.

Anyone who claims to be of Christ yet justifying sin and immorality is an agent of satan!

shadeyinka:

Did I write anything contrary to what you've just said above especially the @bolded

If there is any objection I have, it's about labelling the justification of sin by "Christians" as adherents of "Gospel of the gospel Grace". The justification of sin by "Christians" isn't the gospel of grace but a gospel of deception. How can a person claim he is born again without a CHANGE in nature? How can a person claim he is of Christ yet justifying SIN? How can a new creature exhibit old CHARACTERS?

Indeed, the bottom line is that the LORD knows those who are His.

A true disciple is known by continuing in the words of Christ. Anyone who turns back has never known Christ.

John 8:31:
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;"

1Jn 2:19:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

So bro, I argue Not with you. I only stated what the TRUE gospel of grace mean. It is certainly NOT a licence to sin. It is a knowing that Christ died to save whoever will receive Him. It is the work done by Christ not me. I am not saved by my effort as it was Christ who died for an unworthy fellow like me and gave me His spirit by which I am transformed into a NEW creature who is NOT comfortable with SIN and who lives to please Him who paid the most costly price to purchase my soul.

Anyone who claims to be of Christ yet justifying sin and immorality is an agent of satan!

Harshirama:


I've never seen any body preaching the gospel of grace justify sin. A born again person already has a new nature. He is now instructed to walk in the spirit so he does not fulfill the desire of the flesh. Funny enough, people who don't preach the gospel of grace still walk in sin.

shadeyinka:

The title should have been about the perils of those who believe in the "gospel of licence to sin through grace"!
The true gospel is the gospel of grace!

Harshirama:


I've never seen any body preaching the gospel of grace justify sin. A born again person already has a new nature. He is now instructed to walk in the spirit so he does not fulfill the desire of the flesh. Funny enough, people who don't preach the gospel of grace still walk in sin.

davidinchrist:


The problem is a strong lack of emphasis on "obedience" to Jesus' Words in the new testament. Take Matthew chap. 5, 6 and 7 for instance, then check how many preach "practical obedience" to the words there.

Peace with you.

davidinchrist:


Okay. Just that your first line tends to seem that I also don't believe in grace (finished work of Christ by faith, not by man).

Thanks.

The thing is the gospel of Grace without Truth (obedience to the Words of Jesus) is a great deception of many a great Pastor and Church, leading millions to hell. That's the point.

shadeyinka:

I know you believe we are saved by grace through faith. Your topic actually has a tendency of misleading even though you have explained yourself by saying



The keyword is GRACE WITHOUT TRUTH (obedience to the Words of Jesus) as you have said.

I pray The Lord Heal His Church of our sicknesses. We have mostly left Jesus to organise OUR churches. No wonder Jesus said " when the Son of Man comes, will He find Faith on earth?"

Shalom my brother!

A better Topic:
Get Rid of the False Gospel Of Grace devoid of TRUTH and be Saved

Harshirama:

The holy spirit enables us to obey Jesus' words. You can't walk in love without yielding to the spirit

Harshirama:

The holy spirit enables us to obey Jesus' words. You can't walk in love without yielding to the spirit

Kobojunkie:
But one first needs to obey the commandments that Jesus Christ stipulated for to become worthy of being His follower before the Spirit of God then steps in to take over and guide one through the rest.

According to Jesus Christ, one first needs to prove oneself worthy of being His follower through obedience to about 7 commandments He stipulated before the Spirit of God then comes in to lessen the load.

Remember the story of the rich young man who had just one more commandment to complete in order to become worthy of being a follower of Jesus Christ? He has just one more hurdle... one more command to obey before he would qualify as a follower of Jesus Christ i.e. become Born again i.e. be born of the Spirit of God, but he could not get past that last hurdle and so did not qualify!

Harshirama:
This is wrong.You can't cite the example of the rich young ruler. He was only trying to become a disciple.

Harshirama:
Keep it in mind that none of them were born again. None of the followers of Jesus were born again until he died and resurrected.

Harshirama:
As a believer, all you have to do is yield to the spirit and maintain fellowship with God.

Harshirama:
Philippians 2:13
[13]For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Kobojunkie:
He was trying to become a disciple? Aren't we all trying to become disciples of Jesus Christ, when we obey His commandments in order to becoming worthy of Him?
The young man wanted to become a follower of Jesus Christ, which is what everyone who obeys Jesus Christ becomes, so I don't see how that is a wrong example to cite. After all, Jesus Christ had several followers who were not among the 12 even before His death... we know of about 60 of them.
While none of them had the Spirit of God descend upon them as He did on Jesus Christ during His baptism, that is not to say that the Spirit of God was not with them even while Jesus Christ was on earth. Jesus Christ did "anoint" His disciples, so God was with them, and this was revealed by Jesus Christ Himself on at least one occasion.
Not according to Jesus Christ Himself! Jesus Christ presented at least 7 commands to be obeyed by anyone who wanted to become His follower. All of those commandments apply today even as they did while He was alive on earth. So I am not certain what you are trying to suggest here.
I like to remind people that the letters that Paul wrote were written to those who were already followers of Jesus Christ(those who already passed the hurdles set by Jesus Christ for everyone wishing to become His followers) and not to those who are planning or trying to become followers of Jesus Christ(born again). After all, it is those who have passed the hurdle that become followers of Jesus Christ, according to Jesus Christ Himself, and not those who have not.

Harshirama:
Becoming a follower isn't the same as being born again. You can be born again without being a follower. Following means being a disciple.
[quote author=Harshirama post=95186241]Some of Paul's letters were written to people who haven't believed. Romans 10:8 is an example. Though I agree with some of your points. For example, to become a disciple after being born again, you must place following Jesus before family, money, etc. Once you submit yourself under a spiritual authority(church) where you learn the word and you go to preach the gospel, you're a disciple. Discipleship follows after salvation

Harshirama:
We still have a slight difference. Those who believe in Jesus already have him as their comforter, guide, counselor, in form of the Holy Spirit.

John 6 vs 47-56 (ERV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
35. Then Jesus said, “I am the bread that gives life. No one who comes to me will ever be hungry. No one who believes in me will ever be thirsty.
36. I told you before that you have seen me, and still you don’t believe.
37. The Father gives me my people. Every one of them will come to me. I will always accept them.
38. I came down from heaven to do what God wants, not what I want.
39. I must not lose anyone God has given me. But I must raise them up on the last day. This is what the one who sent me wants me to do.
40. Everyone who sees the Son and believes in him has eternal life. I will raise them up on the last day. This is what my Father wants.”

Harshirama:
We can't talk about the disciples like they were perfect before Jesus died. Peter denied Jesus three times and the rest tried to go back to fishing. After Jesus' resurrection, you can't be a true follower without being born again. The spirit of God equips you to be a follower though you still have to play your own part.

Harshirama:
For example, to become a disciple after being born again, you must place following Jesus before family, money, etc. Once you submit yourself under a spiritual authority(church) where you learn the word and you go to preach the gospel, you're a disciple. Discipleship follows after salvation

shadeyinka:

The above still doesn't change the fact that by GRACE we are saved!
Eph 2:8-9:
"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But the second part of it show us WHY we were saved
Eph 2:10:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them."

We were saved to do Good Works according to the rule of God in righteousness.

2Tim 2:5:
"And if a person competes as an athlete, he is not awarded the victor’s crown unless he competes according to the rules."

The Lord knows those who are His: let fake Christians continue to justify immorality!
2Tim 2:19:
"Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Harshirama:


This is your idea is somehow. First there's nothing like wordly christianity. That's joining two opposites together. Christianity already means being like Christ. Maybe the right term to use is carnal.
Lastly, what leads men to hell is unbelief in the gospel. A

Harshirama:

The holy spirit enables us to obey Jesus' words. You can't walk in love without yielding to the spirit

Dtruthspeaker:
[/b]

At the bolded, When you depart from iniquity, you Obey The Law/Commandment, Exactly As the Op said.

As written, he who does not Commit offence or sin does not fear the Law

Kobojunkie:
According to the Gospel of John, those who believe in Jesus Christ, have eternal life, not the Spirit of God.

Everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life and will be raised on the last day, according to Jesus Christ. But we also know that not all those with eternal life will enter into Heaven, so believing can't be the criteria. I mean even Judas Iscariot believed and yet, according to Jesus Christ, he was of the devil. And I remember the apostle James did warn us that even the demons believe.

So unless we are to accept here and now that the demons who believe in Him also have the Spirit of God as their counsellor and guide, I think we might benefit better from using a different word, don't you think?
Perfection, as described by Jesus Christ Himself, is that we love our enemies(praying for them and not against them), and our neighbours, even as we love our own selves. Any other kind of perfection would not work since it is not according to the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Yes, Peter denied Jesus Christ 3X and they went back to fishing after Jesus left them but that does not mean, in any way, that they stopped being followers of Jesus Christ/born again to live following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ. They had already become worthy of being followers of Jesus Christ, hence were born again, even though the Spirit of God did not show up until some months after Jesus Christ left the planet.