What is the probability given

1. Infinite sets of 30 Alphabets, symbols and punctuation Characters
2. A means of throwing/juggling them
3. Infinite amount of time to repeat the above that

1. Intelligence can result
By intellegence I mean Logic acting on data and producing results consistent with the logic.
Or
2. A meaningful book can result


Some professors are of the opinion that given enough time, without any seed of intellegence behind it, a computer can write a love letter or a chemistry textbook!

And I agree with them!

shadeyinka:
What is the probability given

1. Infinite sets of 30 Alphabets, symbols and punctuation Characters
2. A means of throwing/juggling them
3. Infinite amount of time to repeat the above that

1. Intelligence can result
By intellegence I mean Logic acting on data and producing results consistent with the logic.
Or
2. A meaningful book can result


Some professors are of the opinion that given enough time, without any seed of intellegence behind it, a computer can write a love letter or a chemistry textbook!

And I agree with them!

Your point being?

shadeyinka:
What is the probability given

1. Infinite sets of 30 Alphabets, symbols and punctuation Characters
2. A means of throwing/juggling them
3. Infinite amount of time to repeat the above that

1. Intelligence can result
By intellegence I mean Logic acting on data and producing results consistent with the logic.
Or
2. A meaningful book can result


Some professors are of the opinion that given enough time, without any seed of intellegence behind it, a computer can write a love letter or a chemistry textbook!

And I agree with them!

Smh.
If each letter has same probability of occurring, then each permutation of letters will have the probability of occurring, regardless of whether the arrangements are meaningful or meaningless to an intelligent observer.
Say we have the letters, D,L,O,C.
If each of the letters have a 1/4 chance of randomly been typed, then the permutations COLD, DOLC, CLOD, CCCC, DDDD, LLLL, DLOC etc all have the same probability of occurring after 4 letters are typed. i.e a (1/4)⁴ probability. Regardless of the fact that onlt COLD has a meaning to you...

shadeyinka:
What is the probability given

1. Infinite sets of 30 Alphabets, symbols and punctuation Characters
2. A means of throwing/juggling them
3. Infinite amount of time to repeat the above that

1. Intelligence can result
By intellegence I mean Logic acting on data and producing results consistent with the logic.
Or
2. A meaningful book can result


Some professors are of the opinion that given enough time, without any seed of intellegence behind it, a computer can write a love letter or a chemistry textbook!

And I agree with them!

I'm afraid I don't understand. What would be the means if there is no intelligence behind the whole thing?

Ihedinobi3:


I'm afraid I don't understand. What would be the means if there is no intelligence behind the whole thing?

Let's just imagine that the juggling is possible. Wouldn't it produce a meaningful paragraph of English, French or Dutch language?

Ihedinobi3:


I'm afraid I don't understand. What would be the means if there is no intelligence behind the whole thing?

Note the given in this case

shadeyinka:


1. Infinite sets of 30 Alphabets, symbols and punctuation Characters
2. A means of throwing/juggling them
3. Infinite amount of time to repeat the above that

so of course it is quite possible

NairalandSARS:

Smh.
If each letter has same probability of occurring, then each permutation of letters will have the probability of occurring, regardless of whether the arrangements are meaningful or meaningless to an intelligent observer.
Say we have the letters, D,L,O,C.
If each of the letters have a 1/4 chance of randomly been typed, then the permutations COLD, DOLC, CLOD, CCCC, DDDD, LLLL, DLOC etc all have the same probability of occurring after 4 letters are typed. i.e a (1/4)⁴ probability. Regardless of the fact that onlt COLD has a meaning to you...

I think the challenge can be made simpler.

Let's garther ALL the alphabets, punctuation marks and symbols used in the make of a large book: say 869,000 characters. If we are to throw them on large papers infinite numbers of time: could an intelligent paragraph or a short story compile itself?

LordReed:


Your point being?

That all who agree with me should state why they do!

Kobojunkie:

Note the given in this case
so of course it is quite possible

Do we have a scientific basis for this conclusion?
Has it been ever experimentally verified?

shadeyinka:

Let's just imagine that the juggling is possible. Wouldn't it produce a meaningful paragraph of English, French or Dutch language?

The problem is in the imagining. What would we be imagining?

When you "throw" a bunch of characters onto a blank canvas, you activated a mechanism that has complex variables interacting with each other in obscure but completely reasonable patterns. As such, you already have intelligence operating on those characters. There is no true randomness there.

When a computer writes a love letter or a chemistry textbook, it can't do it without being told what to do and how to do it. There is absolutely no computer that works without programming. Programming is the provision of logic to the computer in order for it to operate.

Likewise, there is absolutely no random process that exists. Every outcome that exists required a logical process to bring it into existence.

This is precisely why evolution has no scientific or logical leg to stand on.

Ihedinobi3:


The problem is in the imagining. What would we be imagining?

When you "throw" a bunch of characters onto a blank canvas, you activated a mechanism that has complex variables interacting with each other in obscure but completely reasonable patterns. As such, you already have intelligence operating on those characters. There is no true randomness there.

When a computer writes a love letter or a chemistry textbook, it can't do it without being told what to do and how to do it. There is absolutely no computer that works without programming. Programming is the provision of logic to the computer in order for it to operate.

Likewise, there is absolutely no random process that exists. Every outcome that exists required a logical process to bring it into existence.

This is precisely why evolution has no scientific or logical leg to stand on.

I am pulling their legs.

I just illustrated how those who think the universe is just one huge lucky jackpot of converging coincidences of accidents which just happened to produce laws, order, universe, stars, planets, and above all living beings.

Ihedinobi3:


The problem is in the imagining. What would we be imagining?

When you "throw" a bunch of characters onto a blank canvas, you activated a mechanism that has complex variables interacting with each other in obscure but completely reasonable patterns. As such, you already have intelligence operating on those characters. There is no true randomness there.

When a computer writes a love letter or a chemistry textbook, it can't do it without being told what to do and how to do it. There is absolutely no computer that works without programming. Programming is the provision of logic to the computer in order for it to operate.

Likewise, there is absolutely no random process that exists. Every outcome that exists required a logical process to bring it into existence.

This is precisely why evolution has no scientific or logical leg to stand on.

LMAO! I am laughing because you just described evolution in a nutshell. Bwahahahaha!

shadeyinka:

I am pulling their legs.

I just illustrated how those who think the universe is just one huge lucky jackpot of converging coincidences of accidents which just happened to produce laws, order, universe, stars, planets, and above all living beings.

So you strawmaned something then shot it to pieces, congratulations! LoL.

shadeyinka:

That all who agree with me should state why they do!

Ah well good luck with your strawman.

LordReed:


Ah well good luck with your strawman.

I think your fallacy is very clear to you now!

LordReed:


So you strawmaned something then shot it to pieces, congratulations! LoL.

Of course, his my brother: I didn't want to waste his time.

shadeyinka:

I am pulling their legs.

I just illustrated how those who think the universe is just one huge lucky jackpot of converging coincidences of accidents which just happened to produce laws, order, universe, stars, planets, and above all living beings.

Oh. LOL! I thought it was odd that you were agreeing with such a thought.

Well done.

LordReed:


LMAO! I am laughing because you just described evolution in a nutshell. Bwahahahaha!

I promise you I don't understand your comment.

Ihedinobi3:


Oh. LOL! I thought it was odd that you were agreeing with such a thought.

Well done.

Their folly is actually apparent to them. But when a person's Intellect has been chained by satan: even with eyes, they wouldn't see!

shadeyinka:

Let's just imagine that the juggling is possible. Wouldn't it produce a meaningful paragraph of English, French or Dutch language?

As in, if I ragrnae lstetr yb ggljuing eyht lwoud eamn thimgsone ot oyu in English, French or Dutch language?

I wonder.

budaatum:

As in, if I ragrnae lstetr yb ggljuing eyht lwoud eamn thimgsone ot oyu in English, French or Dutch language?

I wonder.

What you've written sounds Congolese!
But I am sure it is meaningless
LOL!!

Happy new year long time.

shadeyinka:

I think the challenge can be made simpler.

Let's garther ALL the alphabets, punctuation marks and symbols used in the make of a large book: say 869,000 characters. If we are to throw them on large papers infinite numbers of time: could an intelligent paragraph or a short story compile itself?

No, since no intelligence nor rules would have been involved in their arrangement.

But if you disagree, just randomly arrange the few letters you used in your's quoted above and tell what meaning what you come up with would have.

LordReed:


Ah well good luck with your strawman.

I think they think evolution is some random arrangement, lol.

shadeyinka:

What you've written sounds Congolese!
But I am sure it is meaningless
LOL!!

Happy new year long time.

It's not congolese but gibberish, albeit an arrangement of letters in meaningful English words. It is what you described too, but is not a description of evolution which Ihe is tying it to and claiming is illogical.

budaatum:


No, since no intelligence nor rules would have been involved in their arrangement.

But if you disagree, just randomly arrange the few letters you used in your's quoted above and tell what meaning what you come up with would have.

It will be a tall order first to decode the language of instruction for it would take an intellegence to understand what was created

Secondly, you will have to decode the purpose and the intent of the random characters for a purposeless array of characters would be meaningless. Is it possible to have a message without a background intent?

Thirdly, you need to know the rules on which such communication is based on without which order and coherence will be absent.

Of course, you'll have to decode the message.

budaatum:

It's not congolese but gibberish, albeit an arrangement of letters in meaningful English words. It is what you described too, but is not a description of evolution which Ihe is tying it to and claiming is illogical.

The description wouldn't be evolution except you start the story from the point of the big bang/inflation. Then the real statistics will be glaring

shadeyinka:

It will be a tall order first to decode the language of instruction for it would take an intellegence to understand what was created

Secondly, you will have to decode the purpose and the intent of the random characters for a purposeless array of characters would be meaningless. Is it possible to have a message without a background intent?

Thirdly, you need to know the rules on which such communication is based on without which order and coherence will be absent.

Of course, you'll have to decode the message.

You would have noted all the above by the first responses your thread received.

LordReed:

Your point being?

Ihedinobi3:

I'm afraid I don't understand. What would be the means if there is no intelligence behind the whole thing?

And to be honest, I still do not get your point.

shadeyinka:

The description wouldn't be evolution except you start the story from the point of the big bang/inflation. Then the real statistics will be glaring

It is Ihe who tied it to evolution to which you seemed to agree. I think you are just talking randomly and I do not know what you mean.

budaatum:


You would have noted all the above by the first responses your thread received.


And to be honest, I still do not get your point.

Simple!
Can order come out of chaos?

Can entropy reduce without an external input of a constraining force?

Can intellegence (life) result from random collection of subatomic particles?

That is the point being made!

shadeyinka:

Do we have a scientific basis for this conclusion?
Has it been ever experimentally verified?

You can write a small test program to find out, maybe starting with a finite set.

budaatum:

It is Ihe who tied it to evolution to which you seemed to agree. I think you are just talking randomly and I do not know what you mean.

Evolution is a late description where life has already been formed only that it increased in complexity through survival of the fittest.

The situation of evolution is like having instead of basic characters, you are given whole words and phrases to juggle about.

shadeyinka:

Simple!
Can order come out of chaos?

The answer is yes. It was observed to be so and was described in Genesis 1 and in most creation myths, and it is observant in actuality as evolution.