@tboy1,

tboy1:

@ davidylan

Shut up.

We all know you have a problem with Islam . Here is a thread you started your damn self

I hate muslims even though i shouldn't https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61555.0.html

It would have saved you a whole load of headaches to go to the root of a matter before drawing conclusions. Let me help you with what davidylan has said in reply:

davidylan:

I did not START the thread neither did i give it the title. If you had bothered to read just 2 or 3 pages you should have seen where either i or pilgrim.1 reiterated that fact on more than 3 occassions!

See them in the following links:

Davidylan did not create the thread or title by himself. Infact, I was shocked to see it attributed to him; until I read through and saw what had happened.

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61555.416.html#msg1253705)

See what propaganda is doing? Go through the thread again and see what you're missing. This thread was not started by davidylan!!

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61555.448.html#msg1271944)

davidylan:

If you have problems with your ability to comprehend and process complex information please don't display it here or in response to any of my posts because you definitely will not like my rebuttal.

@tboy1, I hope you can take his admonission in good faith. Cheers.

-------------

@fabulosboy,

fabulosboy:

moslems wont stop blowin up tins until they blow up d whole earth.
i hate them 4 that
but there are still some good moslems

Lol, don't hate them. Rather, love them even though it's hard to do. 

fabulosboy:

moslems wont stop blowin up tins until they blow up d whole earth.
i hate them 4 that
but there are still some good moslems

hey!! davidylan also hates muslims. you got yourself some company.

if your christian, remember "love your neighbor as yourself."
and make sure to approach life with an open mind.

Greetings,

The Holy Quran expressly forbids any Muslim to commit Suicide. Hell is prescribed for such a person.

So how the Original Poster can infere that it was the Holy Book which taught him to do this is insane, when it inexplicably forbids such an action.

Poor man, may Allah have mercy on him. There is no such need to resort to such extreme measures. We must face the hardships as they are a test, and not take such a ill-fated route.

I think its safe to say that this is a relatively isolated case.

Peace

lmao.
just because one muslim commited suicide, she's asking if all muslims are ready to commit suicide. that really was stupid. lol


Tiptronic, all the hate words i've seen on this site targeted against muslims is not even funny anymore. how do you feel about it? 'cause i'm sure i'll feel bad if i was muslim. i'm not even muslim and i still feel bad that it's happening.

Tiptronic:

Greetings,

The Holy Quran expressly forbids any Muslim to commit Suicide. Hell is prescribed for such a person.

Care to read Sura 19:71 more carefully before you make erroneous statements?

WesleyanA:

Tiptronic, all the hate words i've seen on this site targeted against muslims is not even funny anymore. how do you feel about it? 'cause i'm sure i'll feel bad if i was muslim. i'm not even muslim and i still feel bad that it's happening.

I've always said that the worst hypocrites really are not muslims but those CHRISTIANS who think they do Christ a favour by being politically correct.

1. Where are the "hate words"? Please dont be ridiculously vague, highlight one or two!

2. It seems many of you prefer to do selective analysis. Where were you when a muslim posted a thread claiming that Jesus was a slave of allah? those must be golden words of truth, love and tolerance.

Hypocrites reminiscent of the ancient pharisees and saducees!

i believe he is retarded, he should have tried another book before killing him self, thats crazy

Greetings!

I apologise David, but I fail to see your point.  The Surah says (and it always helps to read before and around it):

19:71 And every one of you will come within sight of it: [55] this is, with thy Sustainer, a decree that must be fulfilled.

Please would you care to explain?

WesleyanA, I have only joined now, so I haven't yet familiarised myself with the workings of the forum.  I must confess Im not Nigerian, but one particular friend of mine (a Christian no less) is Nigerian and is such a nice person.  Words fail me, but he has never said I word to hurt anyone, even if it be in jest.  I generally find the very few Nigerians I have met to be extremely pleasant people.  I suppose I just get on well with Africans in real life.  It just clicks.

Tiptronic:



WesleyanA, I have only joined now, so I haven't yet familiarised myself with the workings of the forum. I must confess I'm not Nigerian, but one particular friend of mine (a Christian no less) is Nigerian and is such a nice person. Words fail me, but he has never said I word to hurt anyone, even if it be in jest. I generally find the very few Nigerians I have met to be extremely pleasant people. I suppose I just get on well with Africans in real life. It just clicks.

where i lived in Nigeria, lagos to be exact, christians and muslims got along very well. I grew up with them and was best friends with some of them.
many Nigerians definitely are very pleasant people.
where are you from?

i don't think that most Nairaland users or nigerians have problems with muslims in general
It's just that the muslim haters are usually the loud ones. *cough* davidylan *cough* joking
plus the whole terrorism/ iraq war issue has given a bad reputation to muslims throughout the globe. which i think is unfair.

Wesleyan,

I myself am from Afghanistan. Truth be told, I don't know a great deal about Nigeria, but I always thought it was pretty much 50/50 Muslim/Christian, with the north/south divide. So there are also enclaves of Muslims down south then?

@Tiptronic,

Tiptronic:

I apologise David, but I fail to see your point. The Surah says (and it always helps to read before and around it):

19:71 And every one of you will come within sight of it: [55] this is, with thy Sustainer, a decree that must be fulfilled.

Please would you care to explain?

Please take a look at the following and let us know what you think of the same:

Sura 19:71 --

[Dr. Ghali]:
'And decidedly not one of you (there is), except that he will go (herded) down to it;
that, for your Lord, has been a thing decreed, a must.'

[Muhammad Sarwar]:
'It is the inevitable decree of your Lord that every one of you will be taken to hell.'

[Sale]:
'There shall be none of you but shall descend into the same [hell]:
[This] is an established decree upon thy Lord.'

Regards.

Tiptronic:

Wesleyan,

I myself am from Afghanistan. Truth be told, I don't know a great deal about Nigeria, but I always thought it was pretty much 50/50 Muslim/Christian, with the north/south divide. So there are also enclaves of Muslims down south then?

the 50/50, north/south divide is pretty accurate but a simplified version.

let's just say that there are three major ethnic groups in Nigeria: Hausa (muslim), Igbo (christian) and Yoruba (christian and muslim mix)
hausas live in the north while yorubas and igbos stay in the south.
so, while the north is muslim, the south has a mixture of muslims and christians with mostly christians. the southern muslims are usually yoruba.
i think this explains why christians and muslims get along in the south: they are from the same ethnic group/ have more in common.

the religious (north vs south) clash in nigeria might as well have some ethnic (igbo vs hausa) undertones to it. hmm i never thought about this. lol

how is it in Afghanistan? are there different ethnic groups also?
i read Kite Runner. the author is from Afghanistan so i picked up some things about Afghanistan culture/ society from it but i've forgotten most of the story now. lol

Pilgrim,

But what is this supposed to mean? You need to state clearly what it is you are trying to argue for.

Are you trying to say all humans will enter the hell fire? And you could maybe seek the translations of others such as Yusuf Ali, Shakir etc, since no translation can be 100% accurate.

@ Weslayan, thanks for the explaination. Yes, I suppose its similar in Afghanistan too. We have many many ethnicities, languages, tribes etc. It really is a patchwork of differences and diversity. The pashtuns make up the majority and are generally in the south and east of the country. There are the other ethnic groups (Hazaras, Uzbeks, Tajiks,etc) many of which speak Dari. So yes, complicated stuff lol.

is Hazara the group that is (/used to be) most discriminated against?

@Tiptronic,

Tiptronic:

Pilgrim,

But what is this supposed to mean? You need to state clearly what it is you are trying to argue for.

Quite often, Muslims come up trying to have word play on what is expressly declared in the Qur'an - be that as it may as we read them in the various English translations. As a result, some who argue that verse as referring to only disbelievers would come back again as the very same people who turn round to say it refers to "some" Muslims. Which is which?

Tiptronic:

Are you trying to say all humans will enter the hell fire? And you could maybe seek the translations of others such as Yusuf Ali, Shakir etc, since no translation can be 100% accurate.

On the one hand, I'm not the writer of the Qur'an; nor am I the one who promised to take people there by an irrevocable decree.

Second, any careful reader knows that Yusuf Ali, Shakir and Muhsin-Khan have played political adjustments on that verse. So, you can understand why I don't bother with their pun.

Cheers.

Pilgrim,

Why give the impression you are making a point, when you can't actually make the point? 

This started from my original comment that those who commit suicide are to punished in the hell fire, as is stated in the Quran:

4:29 , And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another).  Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you.

Hadith - Bukhari 7:670, Narrated Abu Huraira

The Prophet  said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever."

And then you answer with a very vague reference to 19:71, which we shall examine for your benefit.

19:66 Man says: "What! When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive?"

19:67 But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?

19:68 So, by thy Lord, without doubt, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Evil Ones (with them); then shall We bring them forth on their knees round about Hell;

19:69 Then shall We certainly drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against ((Allah)) Most Gracious.

19:70 And certainly We know best those who are most worthy of being burned therein.

19:71 Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.

19:72 But We shall save those who guarded against evil, and We shall leave the wrong-doers therein, (humbled) to their knees.

Honestly I think the above is quite clear.  It does not come close to suggesting everyone will enter the hell fire. 

If you are still in doubt, let us look to the Tafsir Ibn Kathir on these verses (although they are pretty clear IMHO)

Ibn Jarir reported from `Abdullah that he said concerning Allah's statement,


﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا﴾


(There is not one of you but will pass over it.) "The bridge over Hell is like the sharp edge of a sword. The first group to cross it will pass like a flash of lightning. The second group will pass like the wind. The third group will pass like the fastest horse. The fourth group will pass like the fastest cow. Then, the rest will pass while the angels will be saying, `O Allah save them, save them.' '' This narration has supporting narrations similar to it from the Prophet in the Two Sahihs and other collections as well. These narrations have been related by Anas, Abu Sa`id, Abu Hurayrah, Jabir and other Companions, may Allah be pleased with them all. Ahmad also recorded that Umm Mubashshar, the wife of Zayd bin Harithah, said, "The Messenger of Allah was in the house of Hafsah when he said,


«لَا يَدْخُلُ النَّارَ أَحَدٌ شَهِدَ بَدْرًا وَالْحُدَيْبِيَّة»


(No one who was present at the battles of Badr and Hudaybiyyah (of the Muslims) will enter into the Hellfire.) Then, Hafsah said, "Doesn't Allah say,


﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا﴾


(There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell) The Messenger of Allah replied by reciting,


﴿ثُمَّ نُنَجِّى الَّذِينَ اتَّقَواْ﴾


(Then We shall save those who had Taqwa.) In the Two Sahihs there is a Hadith reported from Az-Zuhri, from Sa`id from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of Allah said,


«لَا يَمُوتُ لِأَحَدٍ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ ثَلَاثَةٌ مِنَ الْوَلَدِ تَمَسُّهُ النَّارُ إِلَّا تَحِلَّةَ الْقَسَم»


(No one of the Muslims who has had three children, who all died, will be touched by the Hellfire, except for an oath that must be fulfilled.) `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam commented on Allah's statement,


﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا﴾


(There is not one of you but will pass over it "The passing of the Muslims (over the Hellfire) means their passing over a bridge that is over it. But the passing of the idolators over the Hellfire refers to their admission to the Fire.'' As-Suddi reported from Murrah, from Ibn Mas`ud, that he said concerning Allah's statement,


﴿كَانَ عَلَى رَبِّكَ حَتْماً مَّقْضِيّاً﴾


(this is with your Lord; a Hatman decree.) "An oath that must be fulfilled.'' Mujahid said, "Hatman means preordainment.'' Ibn Jurayj said the same. Concerning Allah's statement,


﴿ثُمَّ نُنَجِّى الَّذِينَ اتَّقَواْ﴾


(Then We shall save those who had Taqwa. ) When all of the creatures passed over the Hellfire, and those disbelievers and the disobedient people who are destined to fall into it because of their disobedience, Allah will save the believers and the righteous people from it because of their deeds. Therefore, their passing over the bridge and their speed will be based upon their deeds that they did in this life. Then, the believers who performed major sins will be allowed intercession. The angels, the Prophets and the believers will all intercede. Thus, a large number of the sinners will be allowed to come out of Hell. The fire will have devoured much of their bodies, except the places of prostration on their faces. Their removal from the Hellfire will be due to the faith in their hearts. The first to come out will be he who has the weight of a Dinar of faith in his heart. Then, whoever has the next least amount after him. Then, whoever is next to that after him, and so forth. This will continue until the one who has the tiniest hint of faith in his heart, equal to the weight of an atom. Then, Allah will take out of the Fire whoever said "La ilaha illallah,'' even one day of his entire life, even if he never performed any good deed. After this, no one will remain in the Hellfire, except those it is obligatory upon to remain in the Hellfire forever. This has been reported in many authentic Hadiths from the Messenger of Allah . This is why Allah says,


﴿ثُمَّ نُنَجِّى الَّذِينَ اتَّقَواْ وَّنَذَرُ الظَّـلِمِينَ فِيهَا جِثِيّاً ﴾


(Then We shall save those who had Taqwa. And We shall leave the wrongdoers in it, Jithyya.)


﴿وَإِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَـتُنَا بِيِّنَـتٍ قَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لِلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ أَىُّ الْفَرِيقَيْنِ خَيْرٌ مَّقَاماً وَأَحْسَنُ نَدِيّاً - وَكَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا قَبْلَهُمْ مِّن قَرْنٍ هُمْ أَحْسَنُ أَثَاثاً وَرِءْياً ﴾


(73. And when Our clear Ayat are recited to them, those who disbelieve say to those who believe: "Which of the two groups has the best dwellings and the finest Nadiyyan'') (74. And how many a generation have We destroyed before them, who were better in wealth, goods and outward appearance)

So now its ovr to you.  What exactly is it that you are arguing.

Oh and if you disagree with translator of the Quran, whom without which you would be left dumbfounded as to what the Quran meant, then you should go and learn Arabic so you will have no need for translators.

Peace.

this is another attempt to paper over the cracks.

Where is any reference made to any bridge over hell IN THE QURAN OR HADITH? All these vague references to "narrations" are bogus a best!

@Tiptronic,

Tiptronic:

Pilgrim,

Why give the impression you are making a point, when you can't actually make the point?

Actually, you're amusing me because this happens to be one of those few nights when I stay up to study - and you provide good cracks for the much needed breaks inbetween. Did you say I'm not making a point? Take a closer look at what you've submitted and we'll see the mistake you're making.

Tiptronic:

This started from my original comment that those who commit suicide are to punished in the hell fire, as is stated in the Quran:

I was particularly referring to the translation you offered to gloss over what the Qur'an clearly stipulates. However, I know what Islam teaches about people going to hell - and it does not only appertains to only those who take their own lives. See the following:

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Bk.2, #:30
Narrated Al-Ahnaf bin Qais: While I was going to help this man ('Ali Ibn Abi Talib), Abu Bakra met me and asked, "Where are you going?" I replied, "I am going to help that person." He said, "Go back for I have heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'When two Muslims fight (meet) each other with their swords, both the murderer as well as the murdered will go to the Hell-fire.' I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! It is all right for the murderer but what about the murdered one?' Allah's Apostle replied, "He surely had the intention to kill his companion."

So, both those who are killers (Muslims) and the victims (Muslims) according to the above hadith will end up in hell, NO?

There are so many cases of people who take their own lives - and what is so different from those who are terrorists and go on suicide bombing expeditions? Are they not taking their own lives as well?

Tiptronic:

And then you answer with a very vague reference to 19:71, which we shall examine for your benefit.

Call it a vague reference; at least it was first in your post and I picked it up from there.

Tiptronic:

Honestly I think the above is quite clear.  It does not come close to suggesting everyone will enter the hell fire.

I can't laugh enough, because you're playing hide-and-seek with particular denominational preferences that best speak to your aspirations. A couple of questions for you:

(a) does the Qur'an indicate that people are going to "pass over" Hell?

(b) who are those who would pass over Hell; and by what means are they going to do so?

Tiptronic:

If you are still in doubt, let us look to the Tafsir Ibn Kathir on these verses (although they are pretty clear IMHO)

I've seen Tafsir Ibn Kathir - as well a few others. The problem with Ibn kathir is that it appeals to those who truly want to obfuscate the real gist of Sura 19:71. How so?

Let me quote you a line:

The bridge over Hell is like the sharp edge of a sword.

WHERE in the Qur'an did Allah mention ANY SUCH BRIDGE over Hell?

If Allah has not mentioned any such bridge, what hadith is sufficient to hold that Allah has promised such a bridge and yet did not say a word of it in the Qur'an? Is it not written that Allah has declared that he has everything in the Qur'an? Then from where in the Qur'an is there a mention of any such bridge that we have to smuggle in the idea of a bridge that is non-existent in the Qur'an?

Tiptronic:

So now its ovr to you.  What exactly is it that you are arguing.

I've had no issues with anyone on Sura 19:71 other than that those who are pretending a "bridge" over hell should just throw that joke in the bin. No such bridges exists over hell - and I make bold to say that anyone who devised that idea was playing words on the Qur'an.

Another question I would like to ask here is this:

If Allah did not mention any such bridge in the Qur'an or make reference to what Ibn Kathir cops out from the fabricated hadiths, whose word now stands as more authoritative: the Qur'an or the Hadith? Are you making the Hadiths superior to the Qur'an?

Let me simplify it further with this question:

          Is there a bridge over Hell?
          Qur'an: NO
          Hadith: YES.

What are we going to settle for - take Muhammad's word and jettison the Qur'an?

Please I just want no-nonsense answers to my questions, thank you.

Tiptronic:

Oh and if you disagree with translator of the Quran, whom without which you would be left dumbfounded as to what the Quran meant, then you should go and learn Arabic so you will have no need for translators.

That's more like the cry of a loser - where do you think I'm coming from?  I'm a Christian convert from Islam, and if I didn't know this much, why would I have been able to even enter into this debate at all?

Anyhow, let me give you a little something more to the point that indeed Muhammad himself said that EVERYONE will enter Hell:

First, could this translator be correct in stating exactly what the Qur'an conveys? --

[Muhammad Sarwar]:

'It is the inevitable decree of your Lord that EVERY ONE OF YOU will be taken to hell.'

Let's see if he was stating what in fact Muhammad taught or what the other tafsirs hold:

1.

'There is not one of you but shall come to it, that is, [but] shall enter Hell.
That is an inevitability [already] decreed by your Lord, [something which]
He made inevitable and [which] He decreed; He will not waive it.'

[Tafsir al-Jalalayn © 2006 Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan.]

2.

"(There is not one of you but shall approach it) there is not a single one of you,
to the exclusion of prophets and messengers, save that he will enter it, i.e. Hell.
(That is a fixed ordinance of your Lord) it is a decree that must necessarily take place.

            [Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs]

3.

"And there is none among you who is not to arrive at it." - 19:71

This means that everybody - be he a believer or an infidel - will go across Hell.
However, this does not mean that they would go to stay in it; they would only go across it.
But even if the word means "entry", then the pious believers on entry into Hell will feel no
discomfort because its fires will cool down and will do no harm to them. Sayyidna Abu
Sumayya has related that The Holy Prophet once said that:

"Everybody whether he is a pious man or sinner will initially enter Hell,
but for the pious believers the fire will cool down just as the fire of
Nimrud cooled down when Sayyidna Ibrahim was cast into it. Thereafter,
the believers will be taken to Paradise."

[Ma'āriful-Qu'rān by Maulānā Mufti Muhammad Shafi' (revised by Maulānā Muhammad
Taqi 'Usmani), Vol. 16, pg. 63].

There. Do you see what Muhammad said, and how tafsirs like Ibn Kathir would be making up tales copped out from the hadiths that most Muslims say are fabricated?

On the one hand, Allah says everyone enters Hell; then Muslims run to the aid of fabricated hadiths to build a fictitious "bridge" over Hell. Bros, it will not work - there's NO SUCH bridge over Hell; and the earlier Muslim wake up to that fact, the better for them.

Regards.

@ pilgrim.1, ii no fit laugh again o! Your astute analysis of sura 19:71 has left all the muslims clutching their heads in grief. Each time they come up with their politically correct "explanations" i cant help but think they are burning their bridges.

Did someone actually believe the fire of hell will cool down for "believers"? Oluwa o! What next are we going to hear?

@davidylan my dear bros,

These guys are joking with me. There are tons of tafsirs that are clear on Sura 19:71 that EVERY MUSLIM will be taken to (or horded down into) Hell Fire - and they know it! The deception and hide-and-seek games they play is nauseating!

If Allah has not mentioned any bridge over Hell, they will quickly dash to some fabricated hadiths to construct such a bridge over hell. Well, I wish to remind them that not only has Allah signed Sura 19:71 as an absolute decree (a hatman decree), but he also has left them a double promise in this verse (Sura 77:7) --

"Most surely what you are threatened with must come to pass."

Me, I don waka comot for Hell fire longest time since the day Christ touched my heart and opened my eyes. I'm waiting to ask babs787 a serious question to make him reflect deeply on Allah's "mercy".

@Tiptronic,
Actually, you're amusing me because this happens to be one of those few nights when I stay up to study - and you provide good cracks for the much needed breaks inbetween. Did you say I'm not making a point? Take a closer look at what you've submitted and we'll see the mistake you're making.

I was particularly referring to the translation you offered to gloss over what the Qur'an clearly stipulates. However, I know what Islam teaches about people going to hell - and it does not only appertains to only those who take their own lives. See the following:
Quote
Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Bk.2, #:30
Narrated Al-Ahnaf bin Qais: While I was going to help this man ('Ali Ibn Abi Talib), Abu Bakra met me and asked, "Where are you going?" I replied, "I am going to help that person." He said, "Go back for I have heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'When two Muslims fight (meet) each other with their swords, both the murderer as well as the murdered will go to the Hell-fire.' I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! It is all right for the murderer but what about the murdered one?' Allah's Apostle replied, "He surely had the intention to kill his companion."

So, both those who are killers (Muslims) and the victims (Muslims) according to the above hadith will end up in hell, NO?

NO.  I thought the hadith is pretty self-explainatory but obviously not.  Look at the last phrase: “He surely had the intention to kill his companion.”.  It uses murderer and murdered.  Here’s the crux.  You are implying the ‘victim’ is innocent, when the hadith clearer states he is not because they were both fighting, and both had the intention to kill one another.  You are deliberatley trying to twist meanings, something which is a trademark or self-confessed apostates.

Call it a vague reference; at least it was first in your post and I picked it up from there.

No, I believe David first made some clumsy references to it.

I can't laugh enough, because you're playing hide-and-seek with particular denominational preferences that best speak to your aspirations. A couple of questions for you:

(a) does the Qur'an indicate that people are going to "pass over" Hell?

(b) who are those who would pass over Hell; and by what means are they going to do so?

[Quote]
I've seen Tafsir Ibn Kathir - as well a few others. The problem with Ibn kathir is that it appeals to those who truly want to obfuscate the real gist of Sura 19:71. How so?

Let me quote you a line:
[Quote]
The bridge over Hell is like the sharp edge of a sword.

WHERE in the Qur'an did Allah mention ANY SUCH BRIDGE over Hell?

If Allah has not mentioned any such bridge, what hadith is sufficient to hold that Allah has promised such a bridge and yet did not say a word of it in the Qur'an? Is it not written that Allah has declared that he has everything in the Qur'an? Then from where in the Qur'an is there a mention of any such bridge that we have to smuggle in the idea of a bridge that is non-existent in the Qur'an?[/quote][/quote]

Be honest, the very fact that you are puzzled as to where Ibn Kathir got the “bridge” from shows you do not even understand how he has gone about putting together his commentary.

The bridge over hell-fire, is narrated from a hadith of the Holy Prophet (saw).  That is where Ibn Kathir has got it from.  Yes, hadith form a crucial part of Islamic theology.

As for your Question about it not being mentioned in the Quran: show me where are Muslims shown the method of prayer?  They arent.  We get that from the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw).  Or what about Mahdi or the coming of Jesus (saw)?  Where are they in the Quran?  They arent, but we obtain them from the words of the Holy Prophet (saw).

I've had no issues with anyone on Sura 19:71 other than that those who are pretending a "bridge" over hell should just throw that joke in the bin. No such bridges exists over hell - and I make bold to say that anyone who devised that idea was playing words on the Qur'an.

The Holy Prophet has stated that there is a bridge over hell, and this Sira’at is a well known part of Islamic theology.  So its only you and your chums at Answering Islam that have these doubts, when you lack understanding of other matters (i.e. what the hadith is and its importance).  So if the Holy Prophet has said there is a bridge, we believe him.  What You think we are going to believe a bunch of apostates on this matter over our own dearly beloved Prophet lol

Another question I would like to ask here is this:

If Allah did not mention any such bridge in the Qur'an or make reference to what Ibn Kathir cops out from the fabricated hadiths, whose word now stands as more authoritative: the Qur'an or the Hadith? Are you making the Hadiths superior to the Qur'an?

Let me simplify it further with this question:

          Is there a bridge over Hell?
          Qur'an: NO
          Hadith: YES.

What are we going to settle for - take Muhammad's word and jettison the Qur'an?

Please I just want no-nonsense answers to my questions, thank you.

Firstly I try not to act as a Scholar for I am not one.  So if you are sincere in your question then ask a learned scholar.  But I will give you the best I can.

Firstly, what basis do you have to call this a fabricated hadith?  If you say hadiths are fabricated, then stick to your guns and never quote me anything from them?

But anyway, let us look over your silly fabricated point to the real matter.

Is there a bridge over Hell?
          Qur'an: NO
          Hadith: YES.

Does the Quran explicably say there is no bridge over hell?  Give me the verses.  I don’t think it does.  You are falling for a common fallacy here.  Just because the Quran doesn’t mention the Sira’at, it doesn’t mean that the Quran says there is no bridge.  This example shows your flaw:

In Peter’s speech on medical advancements in the 20th century, nowehere did Peter state that theft is wrong.  Thus, Peter thinks theft is good.

The above is flawed logic to arrive at such a conclusion.  So unless the Quran inexplicably states that there is no bridge over hell (Sira’at), you cannot deduce that this Sira’at doesn’t exist.  By that very logic, nowhere in the Quran does it state that 2+2=4 (just an example) therefore are you going to conclude Muslims don’t believe that 2+2=4  Of course not.

This is the reason of the Hadith because it gives us more information as it’s the word of the Holy Prophet.

What are we going to settle for - take Muhammad's word and jettison the Qur'an?

Please I just want no-nonsense answers to my questions, thank you.

Believing Muhammad when he says the Sira’at exists does not jettison the Quran.  If the Quran said the bridge does NOT exist, and Muhammad said it did, then yes you could call that contradictory.

So there is no jettison of anything here.  In fact by believing Mthe word of Muhammad we are obeying Allah, for Allah has said in the Quran:

7:158 Say [O Muhammad]: "O mankind! Verily, I am an apostle of God to all of you, [sent by Him] unto whom the dominion over the heavens and the earth belongs! There is no deity save Him; He [alone] grants life and deals death!" Believe, then, in God and His Apostle-the unlettered prophet who believes in God and His words-and follow him, so that you might find guidance!

That's more like the cry of a loser - where do you think I'm coming from?   I'm a Christian convert from Islam, and if I didn't know this much, why would I have been able to even enter into this debate at all?

You know Arabic?

Anyhow, let me give you a little something more to the point that indeed Muhammad himself said that EVERYONE will enter Hell:

First, could this translator be correct in stating exactly what the Qur'an conveys? --

   [Muhammad Sarwar]:

   'It is the inevitable decree of your Lord that EVERY ONE OF YOU will be taken to hell.'

I’ll be honest and say Ive never heard of Sarwar.  But even his translation doesn’t say everyone (Muslims included) will be thrown into hell.  It says taken to.  I can take you to the pond in the park, but it wouldn’t mean I throw you in there!

So refer to other translations also.  Or better yet, you know Arabic, so what does the verse say?

Let's see if he was stating what in fact Muhammad taught or what the other tafsirs hold:

1.
Quote
   'There is not one of you but shall come to it, that is, [but] shall enter Hell.
   That is an inevitability [already] decreed by your Lord, [something which]
   He made inevitable and [which] He decreed; He will not waive it.'

   [Tafsir al-Jalalayn © 2006 Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan.]


   2.
Quote
"(There is not one of you but shall approach it) there is not a single one of you,
   to the exclusion of prophets and messengers, save that he will enter it, i.e. Hell.
   (That is a fixed ordinance of your Lord) it is a decree that must necessarily take place.

            [Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs]

Frankly, you need to look at the verses around it.  I assume you have just copied and pasted these from AI so you are not knowledgable of the surrounding verses.  If you are, please tell me do you own these books, or do you have a link to them online, so you can post those parts around this verse.

When it says “you”, who is it talking about?  Look back and the “you” is referring to those that are “worst in obstinate rebellion against”.  How did you arrive at the conclusion that this refers to everyone including Muslims?

3.
Quote
   "And there is none among you who is not to arrive at it." - 19:71

   This means that everybody - be he a believer or an infidel - will go across Hell.
   However, this does not mean that they would go to stay in it; they would only go across it.
   But even if the word means "entry", then the pious believers on entry into Hell will feel no
   discomfort because its fires will cool down and will do no harm to them. Sayyidna Abu
   Sumayya has related that The Holy Prophet once said that:

   "Everybody whether he is a pious man or sinner will initially enter Hell,
   but for the pious believers the fire will cool down just as the fire of
   Nimrud cooled down when Sayyidna Ibrahim was cast into it. Thereafter,
   the believers will be taken to Paradise."

   [Ma'āriful-Qu'rān by Maulānā Mufti Muhammad Shafi' (revised by Maulānā Muhammad
   Taqi 'Usmani), Vol. 16, pg. 63].

There. Do you see what Muhammad said, and how tafsirs like Ibn Kathir would be making up tales copped out from the hadiths that most Muslims say are fabricated?

Muslims say this hadith in question is fabricated?  How so? Provide your evidence.

This is funny.  You believe this hadith that says “everybody will initially enter hell”, yet you say the hadith in which the Prophet (saw) talks about the bridge,  is fabricated

Keep consistant please.  Which one is it to be?  Are hadiths fabricated or not?  If you say yes, you’ve discredited both hadiths and you are left with no argument, and if you say no, then you are left with a refuted argument.

Also, please reference the above hadith properly.  This is the problem with not being original and pasting somone elses work…you are left running around trying to reference it for them.

On the one hand, Allah says everyone enters Hell;

No, look at the verses of 19:71 that you’ve posted for crying out loud!  It doesn’t say enter, but “arrive at”, or “taken to”.

then Muslims run to the aid of fabricated hadiths to build a fictitious "bridge" over Hell. Bros, it will not work - there's NO SUCH bridge over Hell; and the earlier Muslim wake up to that fact, the better for them.

Again I have caught you out.  Why is hadith A fabricated but Hadith B not?
I’ll read up more on the matter, and get back to you when I do

@Tiptronic,

Tiptronic:

NO. I thought the hadith is pretty self-explainatory but obviously not. Look at the last phrase: “He surely had the intention to kill his companion.”. It uses murderer and murdered. Here’s the crux. You are implying the ‘victim’ is innocent, when the hadith clearer states he is not because they were both fighting, and both had the intention to kill one another. You are deliberatley trying to twist meanings, something which is a trademark or self-confessed apostates

It's actually a trademark of confused Muslim mindset to accuse others of twisting meanings when in fact that is the very hallmark they bear in Islam. Even when you have a problem with the words I used, have you made your case any clearer by insinuating that it "uses murderer and murdered"? Could you please explicate the difference between those two terms instead of belly-dancing on words and expressions that trouble your mindset in my rejoinders?

Tiptronic:

No, I believe David first made some clumsy references to it.

And I picked it up from yours - said so earlier, NO?

Tiptronic:

Be honest, the very fact that you are puzzled as to where Ibn Kathir got the “bridge” from shows you do not even understand how he has gone about putting together his commentary.

I was being honest - and like I stated earlier, Ibn Kathir's tafsir is not strange to me, nor was I puzzled by what he copped out from the fabricated hadiths. My point was simply that the hadith itself violates what the Qur'an stipulates.

Tiptronic:

The bridge over hell-fire, is narrated from a hadith of the Holy Prophet (saw). That is where Ibn Kathir has got it from. Yes, hadith form a crucial part of Islamic theology.

I didn't argue about what crucial part the hadith plays in Islamic theology - as long as they don't use that to dribble concepts into the Qur'an through the back door to make Allah say what he hasn't said in the Qur'an.

Tiptronic:

As for your Question about it not being mentioned in the Quran: show me where are Muslims shown the method of prayer? They arent. We get that from the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). Or what about Mahdi or the coming of Jesus (saw)? Where are they in the Quran? They arent, but we obtain them from the words of the Holy Prophet (saw).

Indeed, you can "obtain" a thousand and one things from the words of Muhammad and applaud them - even though Muhammad himself was inconsistent in the hadiths. It is no surprise really that you'd pander to the hadiths that appease your particular denominational or sectarian strain, even though one doesn't need a Harvard degree to see through the inconsistencies in such hadiths, nevermind the double fact that they contradict the express declarations in the Qur'an.

Tiptronic:

The Holy Prophet has stated that there is a bridge over hell, and this Sira’at is a well known part of Islamic theology. So its only you and your chums at Answering Islam that have these doubts, when you lack understanding of other matters (i.e. what the hadith is and its importance). So if the Holy Prophet has said there is a bridge, we believe him. What You think we are going to believe a bunch of apostates on this matter over our own dearly beloved Prophet lol

Trying to score a cheap applause because you dream that I take my persuasions from Answering Islam! Don't make me laugh. The one thing you can't deny (unless by a diehard dishonesty) is that there is no mention of any Sira'at over Hell in the Qur'an. The whole thing was whipped up to allay the fears of those in the Muslim ummah who might be wondering about the irrevocable decree of Allah in that verse.

Tiptronic:

Firstly I try not to act as a Scholar for I am not one. So if you are sincere in your question then ask a learned scholar. But I will give you the best I can.

I'm not pretending myself as a scholar either; and unless you want to make a case that the sources I quoted from were not scholarly (even though they were penned by Muslim scholars), then I can understand how low you'd like to reduce Islamic scholarship.

Tiptronic:

Firstly, what basis do you have to call this a fabricated hadith? If you say hadiths are fabricated, then stick to your guns and never quote me anything from them?

My dear, I don't have guns to stick to, in so far as it is Muslims themselves who quarrel over what hadiths are authentic and which are fabricated. In debates with many Muslims, the inconsistencies are glaring, and I've decided to often refer to the hadith that way to make Muslims understand that it's not my responsibility to be sympathetic one way or the other with any sectarian divide in Islam.

Tiptronic:

But anyway, let us look over your silly fabricated point to the real matter.

Bear in mind that I'm not the author of the "silly fabricated" references in my rejoinders; so your sly disavowals can be credited to them direct.

Tiptronic:

Does the Quran explicably say there is no bridge over hell? Give me the verses. I don’t think it does. You are falling for a common fallacy here. Just because the Quran doesn’t mention the Sira’at, it doesn’t mean that the Quran says there is no bridge. This example shows your flaw:

Snivels like yours show how small people think in their pretended readership skills. My argument is not based solely on the vacancy of any verses in the Qur'an not mentioning the bridge over Hell. More than that, I've demonstrated that it is precisely the case of no such bridge from the collective evidences in other references than just Sura 19:71! How come you pretend to have missed that?

Tiptronic:

In Peter’s speech on medical advancements in the 20th century, nowehere did Peter state that theft is wrong. Thus, Peter thinks theft is good.

The above is flawed logic to arrive at such a conclusion. So unless the Quran inexplicably states that there is no bridge over hell (Sira’at), you cannot deduce that this Sira’at doesn’t exist. By that very logic, nowhere in the Quran does it state that 2+2=4 (just an example) therefore are you going to conclude Muslims don’t believe that 2+2=4 Of course not.

I'm greatly humoured by your logic! You state it yourself and in one fell swoop deflate it yourself - and you try to apply that to the substance of my rejoinder? Titters!

How the question of "theft" should be read into Peter's speech on medical advancements (vacant as it is in your premise) is beyond me. Not even your 2+2=4 example by the same logic comes close. Please think of something else.

Tiptronic:

This is the reason of the Hadith because it gives us more information as it’s the word of the Holy Prophet.

Yeah right. . . even if it is obvious that the hadith references contradict what was stated in the Qur'anic verse in question.

Tiptronic:

Believing Muhammad when he says the Sira’at exists does not jettison the Quran. If the Quran said the bridge does NOT exist, and Muhammad said it did, then yes you could call that contradictory.

Hehe. . I haven't yet come across a roundabout argument this hilarious Let me help you come round this circular reasoning:

Allah simply says that everyone will ENTER Hell fire - Muhammad himself is reputed to have stated so himself. If Muhammad the turns round by some hadith to offer a 'bridge' to make Muslims traditionally believe that "EVERY PERSON" (believers and infidels) will "pass over" Hell, what then would the same people be doing in the same Hell if they were to "pass over" it to the other side (or, as some believe, will go across Hell)?

Tiptronic:

So there is no jettison of anything here. In fact by believing Mthe word of Muhammad we are obeying Allah, for Allah has said in the Quran:

7:158 Say [O Muhammad]: "O mankind! Verily, I am an apostle of God to all of you, [sent by Him] unto whom the dominion over the heavens and the earth belongs! There is no deity save Him; He [alone] grants life and deals death!" Believe, then, in God and His Apostle-the unlettered prophet who believes in God and His words-and follow him, so that you might find guidance!

Dear Tiptronic, before you spin off quoting a verse of the Qur'an to support the idea of Muhammad's words in the Hadith, please think carefully about what I've been offering you. Did Allah himself not say also in the Qur'an he has omitted (or neglected) nothing out of the Qur'an?

Sura 6:38 -

"There is not an animal that crawls in the earth, nor a bird that flies on its two wings, but they are communities like you. WE have left out nothing in the Book. Then to their Lord shall they all be gathered together." [Sher Ali]

"There is not a beast upon the earth nor a bird that flies with both its wings, but is a nation like to you; we have omitted nothing from the Book; then to their Lord shall they be gathered." [Palmer]

Perhaps the verse above may mean anything to you? Is it true at all that Allah left out nothing from the Qur'an; or we would have to say that it is not true and so appeal to some other sources than what Allah stated to explain what he did not state in the Qur'an.

Unless you're trying to argue that the Qur'an is indeed lacking significantly in its teaching, and so must be attended upon by the Hadith (not minding that they contradict what is stated in the Qur'an). Otherwise, it is still the same Qur'an that declares its teachings are enough --

"Is it not enough for them that we have sent down to thee the Book which thou dost recite to them? verily, in that is a mercy and a reminder to a people who believe" (Sura 29:51)

Yup, you can appeal to the hadith (especially where the Qur'an is not sufficient for you) and introduce foreign concepts pretended as "explanation" to what Allah states in his Qur'an in contradistinction to the fact that he states that the Qur'an is sufficient in itself to be understood.

No, I don't pander to just about any idea to make Muhammad's word detract from what he said Allah states in the Qur'an.

Tiptronic:

You know Arabic?

I'm not a scholar in Arabic, but the little I know opened my eyes - and that's what I've been sharing with you.

Tiptronic:

I’ll be honest and say Ive never heard of Sarwar.

Fair enough - there are many others I only came to hear about after my conversion.

@Tiptronic,

Tiptronic:

But even his translation doesn’t say everyone (Muslims included) will be thrown into hell. It says taken to. I can take you to the pond in the park, but it wouldn’t mean I throw you in there!

Well, I don't think I misquoted him - for you're only repeating and further establishing my point. I don't read Sarwar's translation saying something else than 'EVERY ONE OF YOU will be taken to hell.' So, what's your point really?

Tiptronic:

So refer to other translations also. Or better yet, you know Arabic, so what does the verse say?

I've given other translations earlier; do you have a problem with my having quoted M. Sarwar - whose wording you denied was precisely quoted in my reposte?

Tiptronic:

Frankly, you need to look at the verses around it. I assume you have just copied and pasted these from AI so you are not knowledgable of the surrounding verses. If you are, please tell me do you own these books, or do you have a link to them online, so you can post those parts around this verse.

In other words, what was written and exactly quoted are two different things? Please don't play games bleating around the references. I understand the weblinks for the online version are available - I apologise for my inability to post the links presently, but will do so as soon as I can get them. However, those were the precise wordings in those tafsirs - and you may check to confirm them if you could have the fortune of consulting a well-stocked library where you are located, though.

Tiptronic:

When it says “you”, who is it talking about? Look back and the “you” is referring to those that are “worst in obstinate rebellion against”. How did you arrive at the conclusion that this refers to everyone including Muslims?

My inference was already stated  -  [Ma'āriful-Qu'rān by Maulānā Mufti Muhammad Shafi' (revised by Maulānā Muhammad Taqi 'Usmani), Vol. 16, pg. 63], the statement attributed to Muhammad who said: "Everybody whether he is a pious man or sinner will initially enter Hell". I know issues like this surprise you - probably because you were looking only to those references that pepper the particular denominational perspective you belong to in Islam.

Tiptronic:

Muslims say this hadith in question is fabricated? How so? Provide your evidence.

This is funny. You believe this hadith that says “everybody will initially enter hell”, yet you say the hadith in which the Prophet (saw) talks about the bridge, is fabricated

Please look closely at what I said: "the hadiths that most Muslims say are fabricated", is not the same thing as saying that "this hadith in question is fabricated". Like I said earlier, it is not my responsibility to be sympathetic one way or the other with any sectarian divide in Islam. So, if Muslims cannot agree among themselves as to which hadiths are authentic and which are fabricated, please endure my usage of the term. I'm sure you already know that Muslims are not all agreed on every hadith - and the debate is still raging between sects in Islam.

   (http://www.mostmerciful.com/fabricated-hadiths.htm)
   (http://www.islamonline.net/English/HadithAndItsSciences/HadithStudies/2005/07/01.shtml)

Tiptronic:

Keep consistant please. Which one is it to be? Are hadiths fabricated or not? If you say yes, you’ve discredited both hadiths and you are left with no argument, and if you say no, then you are left with a refuted argument.

Arguments are not scored as cheaply as you're trying to make out here, Tiptronic. Worse than that, I don't believe in the Qur'an and would yet quote from it to establish my gist of my argument. Whether or not one is persuaded whichever way about the Qur'an and/or the Hadith does not mean by quoting from them, their arguments are refuted. If Muhammad was saying two different things between the Qur'an and the Hadth, by inference from your own logic it would mean that his revelations were self-refuting - and I trust you know more than what you're hoping would be scored cheaply on your plate.

Tiptronic:

Also, please reference the above hadith properly. This is the problem with not being original and pasting somone elses work…you are left running around trying to reference it for them

Nothing added or edited in that quote.

Tiptronic:

No, look at the verses of 19:71 that you’ve posted for crying out loud! It doesn’t say enter, but “arrive at”, or “taken to”.

Interesting. What is the difference between "enter", "arrive at", and "taken to"? Particularly, please how slight is the space between the understanding of "enter" and "taken to"?

Besides, is it not interesting enough that other Muslim translators have rendered that clause with other qualifiers such as:

"shall descend into the same [hell]" -- (Sale)

"except that he will go (herded) down to it" (Dr. Ghali)

"There is not one of you who shall not go down to it" (Hassan Qaribullah & Ahmed Darwish)

Just what could these Muslim translators be missing out?

Another thing that you have to think through is this: if you want to apply that verse (Sura 19:71) to disbelievers/infidels and stick to the convenient renderings of the verse to read as "pass over", does that not clearly say that the infidels themselves are going to pass over and not "enter" or "descend into" Hell?  You seem to be shifting your goal posts on this issue - but it's nothing new anyway.

Tiptronic:

Again I have caught you out. Why is hadith A fabricated but Hadith B not?

I've settled your worries on this above.

Tiptronic:

I’ll read up more on the matter, and get back to you when I do

Please do, and regards.

pilgrim.1:

@Tiptronic,

It's actually a trademark of confused Muslim mindset to accuse others of twisting meanings when in fact that is the very hallmark they bear in Islam. Even when you have a problem with the words I used, have you made your case any clearer by insinuating that it "uses murderer and murdered"? Could you please explicate the difference between those two terms instead of belly-dancing on words and expressions that trouble your mindset in my rejoinders?

Murderer: someone who commits the act of murder; killer
Murdered: someone on whom the act of murder is done on; killed

You brought in the term 'victim' from thin air.  We're not dealing with victims here; a victim is someone who is stabbed in the middle of the night by thugs, who is innocent.

I mean how can you attribute the term victim to 2 people who each have weapons and are fighting each other to death?  How can you call one of them a murderer and the other a victim?? So its wrong to use the word victim here, or the notion of innocent or guilty.

Read the hadith carefully.  2 guys are battling it out with swords.  When one kills the other he's the murderer, and the won who is killed, is the murdered.  (goes without saying)

So the Prophet (saw) says that they both "will go to the Hell-fire", for they both intended to kill each other, and who killed who was irrelevant, since they would both go to the Hell fire if A killed B or if B killed A.

Have I made it clear?  Sorry if I've confused you.

And I picked it up from yours - said so earlier, NO?

You said you picked it up from mine first, but I wasnt the first to, eeehhhh trivial matter, forget it  

I was being honest - and like I stated earlier, Ibn Kathir's tafsir is not strange to me, nor was I puzzled by what he copped out from the fabricated hadiths. My point was simply that the hadith itself violates what the Qur'an stipulates.

But it doesnt.  See below.

I didn't argue about what crucial part the hadith plays in Islamic theology - as long as they don't use that to dribble concepts into the Qur'an through the back door to make Allah say what he hasn't said in the Qur'an.

Dribble cocepts into the Quran?  Sir, Islamic Law is based on 4 things: Quran, Sunnah, Ijma and Qiyas.  That includes Hadith in there.  The words of the Prophet are not to be discarded but rather cherished.

Indeed, you can "obtain" a thousand and one things from the words of Muhammad and applaud them - even though Muhammad himself was inconsistent in the hadiths. It is no surprise really that you'd pander to the hadiths that appease your particular denominational or sectarian strain, even though one doesn't need a Harvard degree to see through the inconsistencies in such hadiths, nevermind the double fact that they contradict the express declarations in the Qur'an.

Very nice.  Now answer my questions.  Were in the Quran is it written on how to pray? Were is it written about Mahdi?  Both things are in all "denominations" as all Muslims believe in them, so don't try to play that card.

Trying to score a cheap applause because you dream that I take my persuasions from Answering Islam! Don't make me laugh. The one thing you can't deny (unless by a diehard dishonesty) is that there is no mention of any Sira'at over Hell in the Qur'an. The whole thing was whipped up to allay the fears of those in the Muslim ummah who might be wondering about the irrevocable decree of Allah in that verse.

Does the Quran inexplicably say "There is no Bridge"?  No it doesnt.  So you're making absurd conclusions.  We'll see if this is your own work a little bit later.

I'm not pretending myself as a scholar either; and unless you want to make a case that the sources I quoted from were not scholarly (even though they were penned by Muslim scholars), then I can understand how low you'd like to reduce Islamic scholarship.

No?  It seems you are.  You are going against widely accepted core theological concepts in Islam about the Sira'at and saying it doesnt exist, basing your arguments on verse and hadiths.  That looks like the work of a self proclaimed scholar to me.

My dear, I don't have guns to stick to, in so far as it is Muslims themselves who quarrel over what hadiths are authentic and which are fabricated. In debates with many Muslims, the inconsistencies are glaring, and I've decided to often refer to the hadith that way to make Muslims understand that it's not my responsibility to be sympathetic one way or the other with any sectarian divide in Islam.

The inconsistancy is on your part.  First you call hadiths fabricated (failing to give specific reasons why) and yet in the very same post you use a hadith to argue your point!!

Do you believe hadiths to be fabricated or not?  If yes, then why do you quote them

Snivels like yours show how small people think in their pretended readership skills. My argument is not based solely on the vacancy of any verses in the Qur'an not mentioning the bridge over Hell. More than that, I've demonstrated that it is precisely the case of no such bridge from the collective evidences in other references than just Sura 19:71! How come you pretend to have missed that?

You are wasting my time.  I havent missed those other verses (not suras, tsk tsk call yourself an apostate), and I have said that nowhere in the Quran is the Siraat mentioned.

You said, did you not, that the Quran makes no mention of Sira'at, therefore no such thing exists?  That is flawed logic.

You assume one fact based on another one not being there.  I cant believe Im even discussing this with you, with David maybe, but not you!

I'm greatly humoured by your logic! You state it yourself and in one fell swoop deflate it yourself - and you try to apply that to the substance of my rejoinder? Titters!

How the question of "theft" should be read into Peter's speech on medical advancements (vacant as it is in your premise) is beyond me. Not even your 2+2=4 example by the same logic comes close. Please think of something else.

Give me strength.  You are saying the Sira'at doesnt exist because it isnt mentioned in the Quran?  Right?  Well Hitler isnt mentioned in the Quran but that doesnt mean Hitler exists!!!

If the Quran said "There is no such thing as the Sira'at" then yes, we can safely say the Sira'at doesnt exist.  But it doesnt say that.  The fact that it doesnt mention it, does not prove that it doesnt exist!

arrghh

Yeah right. . . even if it is obvious that the hadith references contradict what was stated in the Qur'anic verse in question.

Lay out this contradiction in full with regards to the BRIDGE.

Hehe. . I haven't yet come across a roundabout argument this hilarious Let me help you come round this circular reasoning:

Allah simply says that everyone will ENTER Hell fire - Muhammad himself is reputed to have stated so himself. If Muhammad the turns round by some hadith to offer a 'bridge' to make Muslims traditionally believe that "EVERY PERSON" (believers and infidels) will "pass over" Hell, what then would the same people be doing in the same Hell if they were to "pass over" it to the other side (or, as some believe, will go across Hell)?

Err, why jump to this?  We were talking about the bridge and now you start talking about whether everyone is going to fry!!

The above statement tries to argue that the supposed contradiction with regards to everyone entering hell, NOT the existance of the bridge.

Dear Tiptronic, before you spin off quoting a verse of the Qur'an to support the idea of Muhammad's words in the Hadith, please think carefully about what I've been offering you. Did Allah himself not say also in the Qur'an he has omitted (or neglected) nothing out of the Qur'an?

Sura 6:38 -

"There is not an animal that crawls in the earth, nor a bird that flies on its two wings, but they are communities like you. WE have left out nothing in the Book. Then to their Lord shall they all be gathered together." [Sher Ali]

"There is not a beast upon the earth nor a bird that flies with both its wings, but is a nation like to you; we have omitted nothing from the Book; then to their Lord shall they be gathered." [Palmer]

Perhaps the verse above may mean anything to you? Is it true at all that Allah left out nothing from the Qur'an; or we would have to say that it is not true and so appeal to some other sources than what Allah stated to explain what he did not state in the Qur'an.

Then tell a Muslim how he is supposed to pray his Salaat.  Go ahead.  It is nowhere in the Quran.  So tell me where is one meant to find the method??

As always, you dont read in context.  The ayah is talking about miracles and signs (as can be seen from previous verses).  "We have neglected nothing in the Book" means, the knowledge about all things is with Allah, and He never forgets any of His creatures, nor their sustenance, nor their affairs.  In another Ayah, Allah said: "And no moving creature is there on earth but its provision is due from Allah. And He knows its dwelling place and its deposit (in the uterus, grave, etc.). All is in a Clear Book." (11:6)

Unless you're trying to argue that the Qur'an is indeed lacking significantly in its teaching, and so must be attended upon by the Hadith (not minding that they contradict what is stated in the Qur'an). Otherwise, it is still the same Qur'an that declares its teachings are enough --

The Quran couldn't possibly comment in huge detail about every single thing in the religion.  For example the Quran instructs us to pray, but its from the sunnah that we learn the method of praying.

"Is it not enough for them that we have sent down to thee the Book which thou dost recite to them? verily, in that is a mercy and a reminder to a people who believe" (Sura 29:51)

Yup, you can appeal to the hadith (especially where the Qur'an is not sufficient for you) and introduce foreign concepts pretended as "explanation" to what Allah states in his Qur'an in contradistinction to the fact that he states that the Qur'an is sufficient in itself to be understood.

Again typical twisting of the meaning.  The ayah before talks about signs.  So this verse is responding the idolators saying "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?",  by telling them "Is this Quran not enough of a sign for you?"

Stop twisting the meaning oh e-scholar.  You have not spent your life devoted to learning and studying the Quran, but our Scholars have.  You even admit you dont even know Arabic, yet you think yourself of more authoratity than our great Scholars?  Wait wait, thats like an unlettered Indian claiming he is the authority when it comes to commentating on Shakespeare!

No, I don't pander to just about any idea to make Muhammad's word detract from what he said Allah states in the Qur'an.

I'm not a scholar in Arabic, but the little I know opened my eyes - and that's what I've been sharing with you.

Can you translate the verse or not?

pilgrim.1:

@Tiptronic,

Well, I don't think I misquoted him - for you're only repeating and further establishing my point. I don't read Sarwar's translation saying something else than 'EVERY ONE OF YOU will be taken to hell.' So, what's your point really?

Whats your point?! Its says "taken to" not "enter into".  This is a poor attempt at trying to prove that everyone is going to hell.

I've given other translations earlier; do you have a problem with my having quoted M. Sarwar - whose wording you denied was precisely quoted in my reposte?

Here are nearly all of them:

19:71 And every one of you will come within sight of it: this is, with thy Sustainer, a decree that must be fulfilled. (M Asad)

19:71 Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished. (Yusuf Ali)

19:71 There is not one of you but shall approach it. That is a fixed ordinance of thy Lord. (Picktall)

19:71 And there is not one of you but shall come to it; this is an unavoidable decree of your Lord. (Shakir)

19:71 Not one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; that for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined. (Arberry)

19:71 There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished. (Khan/Muhsin)

NONE of which say anything about going into hell, or burning in hell.

In other words, what was written and exactly quoted are two different things? Please don't play games bleating around the references. I understand the weblinks for the online version are available - I apologise for my inability to post the links presently, but will do so as soon as I can get them. However, those were the precise wordings in those tafsirs - and you may check to confirm them if you could have the fortune of consulting a well-stocked library where you are located, though.

Yeah, thats the problem with copying from AI.  Yiu dont know what you're talking about and you cant even provide me with hadith books/numbers. lol

My inference was already stated  -  [Ma'āriful-Qu'rān by Maulānā Mufti Muhammad Shafi' (revised by Maulānā Muhammad Taqi 'Usmani), Vol. 16, pg. 63], the statement attributed to Muhammad who said: "Everybody whether he is a pious man or sinner will initially enter Hell". I know issues like this surprise you - probably because you were looking only to those references that pepper the particular denominational perspective you belong to in Islam.

Please look closely at what I said: "the hadiths that most Muslims say are fabricated", is not the same thing as saying that "this hadith in question is fabricated". Like I said earlier, it is not my responsibility to be sympathetic one way or the other with any sectarian divide in Islam. So, if Muslims cannot agree among themselves as to which hadiths are authentic and which are fabricated, please endure my usage of the term. I'm sure you already know that Muslims are not all agreed on every hadith - and the debate is still raging between sects in Islam.

You just dont know what you're talking about, poor you.  There is nothing sectarian about which hadiths are true or false.

You lie when you say "the hadiths that most Muslims say are fabricated".  You dont know whether this is a fabricated hadith or not because you dont even know which book this hadith came from!!!  Was it Bukhari/Muslim/Tirmizi etc?? You just dont know.

  (http://www.mostmerciful.com/fabricated-hadiths.htm)
  (http://www.islamonline.net/English/HadithAndItsSciences/HadithStudies/2005/07/01.shtml)

Arguments are not scored as cheaply as you're trying to make out here, Tiptronic. Worse than that, I don't believe in the Qur'an and would yet quote from it to establish my gist of my argument. Whether or not one is persuaded whichever way about the Qur'an and/or the Hadith does not mean by quoting from them, their arguments are refuted. If Muhammad was saying two different things between the Qur'an and the Hadth, by inference from your own logic it would mean that his revelations were self-refuting - and I trust you know more than what you're hoping would be scored cheaply on your plate.

Nothing added or edited in that quote. ~ But no references, just a plucked hadith.

[quote]Interesting. What is the difference between "enter", "arrive at", and "taken to"? Particularly, please how slight is the space between the understanding of "enter" and "taken to"?

Its quite clear when someone is doomed to hell.  They are thrown into hell.  None of these however suggest such a thing.  Fanciful claims from our resident e-scholar.

Besides, is it not interesting enough that other Muslim translators have rendered that clause with other qualifiers such as:

"shall descend into the same [hell]" -- (Sale)

"except that he will go (herded) down to it" (Dr. Ghali)

"There is not one of you who shall not go down to it" (Hassan Qaribullah & Ahmed Darwish)

Just what could these Muslim translators be missing out?

Translations are a rough idea of what the Quran means, not the Quran itself.  It quite humourous, you relying on translation to get the meaning.  Go learn some Arabic (more than ahlan wasahlan) and then make commentary to me about the Quran.

Another thing that you have to think through is this: if you want to apply that verse (Sura 19:71) to disbelievers/infidels and stick to the convenient renderings of the verse to read as "pass over", does that not clearly say that the infidels themselves are going to pass over and not "enter" or "descend into" Hell?  You seem to be shifting your goal posts on this issue - but it's nothing new anyway.

I've settled your worries on this above.

Please do, and regards.

You just have no idea.

Its typical for such people to make scholars of themselves.

lol, I prefer the opinion of someone who IS a scholar to that of some apostate, anyday!

I am simply wasting my time explaining this to you.  You're all the same, arguing about something you know nothing about, the copy/paste warriors!

I cant waste anymore time here, so i say thank you for havin me and Goodbye.

May Allah guide you to the only and Ultimate Haqq!

Peace

[/quote]

V .S .I
very sad indeed

tiptronic,please learn to summarize.
Who do you think has the time to read all of that?

according to an american muslim (book author) featured on bbc, at least 99% of muslims believe that "allah is a merciful God" and DO NOT condone terrorist acts. they get mad when they look at the tv and all they see is people connecting islam to terrorism and hate.
the guy made a lot of good points too.

good to see that this debate is no longer one sided. if only we can find more people like tiptronic on nairaland

WesleyanA:

according to an american muslim (book author) featured on bbc, at least 99% of muslims believe that "allah is a merciful God" and DO NOT condone terrorist acts. they get mad when they look at the tv and all they see is people connecting islam to terrorism and hate.
the guy made a lot of good points too.

good to see that this debate is no longer one sided. if only we can find more people like tiptronic on nairaland

What else did you expect the muslim to say? That 99% of muslims are truly terrorists?

You do the maths: if we agree that 1% of muslims are terrorists out of about 1.5billion muslims worldwide; that accounts for 15million extremists willing to strap bombs and kill innocent people in the name of god while actively attempting to recruit more disciples.
Considering that it took only 4 men to kill 3000 on 9-11, 15 million is a truly scary figure!

Maybe you need to read tiptronic's posts a lot closer and do so without blinkered glasses, he really makes no sense. Long winding posts doesnt make you smart.

davidylan:

What else did you expect the muslim to say? That 99% of muslims are truly terrorists?

You do the maths: if we agree that 1% of muslims are terrorists out of about 1.5billion muslims worldwide; that accounts for 15million extremists willing to strap bombs and kill innocent people in the name of god while actively attempting to recruit more disciples.
Considering that it took only 4 men to kill 3000 on 9-11, 15 million is a truly scary figure!

Maybe you need to read tiptronic's posts a lot closer and do so without blinkered glasses, he really makes no sense. Long winding posts doesnt make you smart.

And your point is? what? that tiptronic is a suicide bomber hiding somewhere in Afghanistan waiting to pounce on victims?

besides, pilgrim' posts are pretty long too. no one's complaining about that.
anyways,the dialogue is between them both. i've seen some of your long ass posts too.

i quoted "at least 99%" i didn't say this was an exact figure. stop with the "maths"
whether you like it or not, there are christian bigots out there with deep anti-islamic sentiments (you're an example, no offense). some of these people will act on these feelings if given a chance.

it took one man (Hitler) to recruit millions of german youth to aid his evil mission against the jews.
i don't think you get my point but just laying it out there for you to make connections.

Either of two things: you are too arrogant to realise you're actually dumb and make little sense or you are very resistant to truth.

WesleyanA:

And your point is? what? that tiptronic is a suicide bomber hiding somewhere in Afghanistan waiting to pounce on victims?

and pray how did my post bring you to this conclusion? I made a simple analogy that PC appologists like you prefer to gloss over. YES 99% of muslims "claim" to be peaceloving but we all pretend as if the remaining 1% do not exist! They do and they number no less than 15millions! If it took 19 men to bring the US to its knees on 9-11, imagine what 15million will do when and not if they obtain superior weapons.

WesleyanA:

besides, pilgrim' posts are pretty long too. no one's complaining about that.
anyways,the dialogue is between them both. i've seen some of your long ass posts too.

This is beside the point and a really silly to bring up. The problem is not with tiptronic's lengthy posts but that he like all other muslims here prefer to obfuscate their ignorance by making lengthy posts knowing fully well that very few will bother to read them. In a way, its just one more trick to dampen interest in the debate without looking stupid.

WesleyanA:

i quoted "at least 99%" i didn't say this was an exact figure. stop with the "maths"

Make use of the few brain cells you allege to have, even an idiot can project what 99% of 1.5billion people is. The world population is not an exact figure but we all work and plan with estimates that are not far from the truth.

WesleyanA:

whether you like it or not, there are christian bigots out there with deep anti-islamic sentiments (you're an example, no offense). some of these people will act on these feelings if given a chance.

This is mere bollocks! If there are indeed christian extremists it should not be so difficult to build a pipe bomb and go blow up a market in Saudi Arabia just like you favorite muslims do. Wasnt Dan Brown's davinci code enough provocation?
People like you make complext intellectual reasoning begin to look like an endangered attribute.

WesleyanA:

it took one man (Hitler) to recruit millions of german youth to aid his evil mission against the jews.

Just like it took 4 people to bring down the WTC. Go figure.

WesleyanA:

i don't think you get my point but just laying it out there for you to make connections.

No you don't have a point, you just love hearing yourself talk so you can decieve yourself into thinking you actually have anything upstairs.

@Tiptronic,

Tiptronic:

Murderer: someone who commits the act of murder; killer
Murdered: someone on whom the act of murder is done on; killed

You brought in the term 'victim' from thin air. We're not dealing with victims here; a victim is someone who is stabbed in the middle of the night by thugs, who is innocent.

I mean how can you attribute the term victim to 2 people who each have weapons and are fighting each other to death? How can you call one of them a murderer and the other a victim?? So its wrong to use the word victim here, or the notion of innocent or guilty.

Read the hadith carefully. 2 guys are battling it out with swords. When one kills the other he's the murderer, and the won who is killed, is the murdered. (goes without saying)

So the Prophet (saw) says that they both "will go to the Hell-fire", for they both intended to kill each other, and who killed who was irrelevant, since they would both go to the Hell fire if A killed B or if B killed A.

Have I made it clear? Sorry if I've confused you.

Rather than try to confuse me and fail in the attempt, I didn't expect anything of substance from you. It's the usual Islamic thing to circle round simple issues and arrive at nowhere - which is what you've done above. Since you're making a case for both murderer and murdered going to hell because Muhammad said so, then the same should apply to all other cases of killings for whatever reasons - especially as it is irrelevant who killed who, as long as they had the intention to kill. Here's an example:

Malik's Muwatta (Book 21, #21.14.28)
Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Allah laughs at two men. One of them kills the other, but each of them will enter the Garden: one fights in the way of Allah and is killed, then Allah turns to the killer, so he fights (in the way of Allah) and also becomes a martyr."

That is a classic example of two Muslims fighting and killing each other - but with the typical Islamic ideology, Muhammad didn't send either of them to Hell fire. They both merited the Garden because Allah laughs at them as they 'killed' after having fought each other. Here I'm sure you would have to argue that neither of them "had the intention to kill" - they probably were playing circus, not so?

If you want more examples of this kind, I could well serve them. The point simply goes to show that your argument for a "no victims" as each one had the intention to kill the other should apply to all such cases. Since killers had the intention to kill, we should not have been reading confused biases from Muhammad who condemns one group to Hell fire, and then tells us how Allah laughs at the other group and admits them to Paradise for having the same intention to kill.

Tiptronic:

You said you picked it up from mine first, but I wasnt the first to, eeehhhh trivial matter, forget it

No worries.

Tiptronic:

Dribble cocepts into the Quran? Sir, Islamic Law is based on 4 things: Quran, Sunnah, Ijma and Qiyas. That includes Hadith in there. The words of the Prophet are not to be discarded but rather cherished.

I know what comprises Islamic jurisprudence; and you'd have to agree with me that even with the Ijma and Qiyas, not all are agreed on all points - thus the raison d'etre for the more than 70 distinct denominations in Islam. Nevermind that the words of Muhammad contradict themselves in the Hadith, let alone their contradicting the Qur'an.

Tiptronic:

Very nice. Now answer my questions. Were in the Quran is it written on how to pray? Were is it written about Mahdi? Both things are in all "denominations" as all Muslims believe in them, so don't try to play that card.

If you try to lay down your pokers, you'd see the present topic is not about prayer or the Mahdi; so your deflections are not helping you out here. If you want us to discuss those two, please oblige me in another thread and prepare yourself to be amazed at issues you didn't notice about them heretofore. The Qur'an claims to have been fully explained as given to Muhammad; and I've not come across any unbiased scholarship that points out from the Qur'an that Allah wanted Muslims to sit round the Hadith, Ijma and Qiyas in addition to what he has given in the Qur'an.

Tiptronic:

Does the Quran inexplicably say "There is no Bridge"? No it doesnt. So you're making absurd conclusions. We'll see if this is your own work a little bit later.

If the Qur'an mentions any such bridge(s), why has it taken you forever to simply point out the verse?

Tiptronic:

No? It seems you are. You are going against widely accepted core theological concepts in Islam about the Sira'at and saying it doesnt exist, basing your arguments on verse and hadiths. That looks like the work of a self proclaimed scholar to me.

Thanks for the accolade, but please don't make me laugh. Where have I pretended to be a 'self proclaimed scholar', even if you'd think I sound like that to you? That the concept is 'widely accepted' doesn't prove that Allah said so in the Qur'an!

Tiptronic:

The inconsistancy is on your part. First you call hadiths fabricated (failing to give specific reasons why) and yet in the very same post you use a hadith to argue your point!!

Do you believe hadiths to be fabricated or not? If yes, then why do you quote them

Don't sweat over this and make yourself even more hilarious. Does one have to believe in either the Qur'an or the Hadith in order to quote from them? What would you say in the cases of Muslims on this Forum and other Islamic websites who have quoted extensively from the Bible, qualifying it with all sorts of derogatory terms, while arguing against its message?

I don't see what your point here really is; and just for the benefit of the doubt: NO, I don't believe in the Qur'an nor in the Hadith - but should that be reason enough to placate your Islamic slant for non-muslims to not quote from them? It's alright for Muslims to touch other people's Scriptures and holy writs with impudence, while arrogating to yourselves the exclusive sanctimony of barring non-Muslims from touching the Qur'an at the risk of a so-called 'desecration' at pain of death!

@Tiptronic,

Tiptronic:

You are wasting my time. I havent missed those other verses (not suras, tsk tsk call yourself an apostate), and I have said that nowhere in the Quran is the Siraat mentioned.

I guess I was wrong to have considered you a more intelligent mind than babs787. Nevermind your calling me an apostate (my neck is still on mind head, by the way); but you've just exposed the principle informing your empty roundabout arguments.

Tiptronic:

You said, did you not, that the Quran makes no mention of Sira'at, therefore no such thing exists? That is flawed logic.

You assume one fact based on another one not being there. I can't believe I'm even discussing this with you, with David maybe, but not you!

If I had based my persuasion on only one verse of the Qur'an, then you'd be right to have flawed my inference (not logic, tsk, tsk). However, isn't it amazing that in the collective testimony of the Qur'an itself none of you guys have been able to show how such a 'bridge over Hell' is even remotely inferred! If you have to run to the Hadiths for your cover, it only makes matters a bit more hilarious and turns your argument on its head. Islamic logic not helpful here, my dear sir.

Tiptronic:

Give me strength. You are saying the Sira'at doesnt exist because it isnt mentioned in the Quran? Right? Well Hitler isnt mentioned in the Quran but that doesnt mean Hitler exists!!!

If the Quran said "There is no such thing as the Sira'at" then yes, we can safely say the Sira'at doesnt exist. But it doesnt say that. The fact that it doesnt mention it, does not prove that it doesnt exist!

arrghh

Hehe. . . if that was indeed how I argued, then I would have been saying that Mugabe and Idi Amin did not exist because the Qur'an didn't mention them! Rubbish.

Here's the strength you're seeking: gather all ancillary and subsidiary verses on the subject from within the Qur'an itself and show me where Allah spoke of such a concept of a bridge over Hell fire! Did the Qur'an not make the claim that it is complete in itself and Allah did not omit anything from it (Sura 6:38)?!? Your problem now is a fresh one - which would be that you're trying to argue that the claim in that verse does not hold true for all of the verses of the Qur'an (whether abrogated or not)!

Tiptronic:

Then tell a Muslim how he is supposed to pray his Salaat. Go ahead. It is nowhere in the Quran. So tell me where is one meant to find the method??

As always, you don't read in context. The ayah is talking about miracles and signs (as can be seen from previous verses). "We have neglected nothing in the Book" means, the knowledge about all things is with Allah, and He never forgets any of His creatures, nor their sustenance, nor their affairs. In another Ayah, Allah said: "And no moving creature is there on earth but its provision is due from Allah. And He knows its dwelling place and its deposit (in the uterus, grave, etc.). All is in a Clear Book." (11:6)

More soapbox oration! You're quickly losing the plot if you want to narrow that verse (Sura 6:38) to just a matter of animals and their sustenance. Even within the same chapter, the claim of a complete and self-explanatory Qur'an is made:

Sura 6:114

Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. [Yusuf Ali]

Shall I seek for a judge other than ALLAH, when HE it is WHO has sent down to you the Book fully explained? And those to whom WE gave the Book know that it has been sent down from thy Lord with truth; so be thou not of those who doubt. [Sher Ali]

Since you read in context, you'd now have to tell us if the Qur'an is indeed a book fully explained when it was sent down; or the claim made in the verse above was inscribed there for animals. Unless you're making a case for an incomplete and ambiguous Qur'an, then I'd see your point. But in so far as the Qur'an made a claim to its being both complete and fully explained, arguing for a case of outside sources to interject the bridge that is not in the Qur'an is a waste of time and space.

Tiptronic:

The Quran couldn't possibly comment in huge detail about every single thing in the religion. For example the Quran instructs us to pray, but its from the sunnah that we learn the method of praying.

The Qur'an does not make a claim of its being a partially detailed book - Sura 6:114 is an example that shows its claim to be a fully explained book. Prayer is another thing, and if you are going to pedantically make excuses with that in relation to the present topic being discussed, please oblige me that in another thread.

Tiptronic:

Again typical twisting of the meaning. The ayah before talks about signs. So this verse is responding the idolators saying "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?", by telling them "Is this Quran not enough of a sign for you?"

Stop twisting the meaning oh e-scholar. You have not spent your life devoted to learning and studying the Quran, but our Scholars have. You even admit you don't even know Arabic, yet you think yourself of more authoratity than our great Scholars? Wait wait, thats like an unlettered Indian claiming he is the authority when it comes to commentating on Shakespeare!

Right, then you're arguing precisely that the Qur'an is an incomplete book that has to be augmented by the Hadith, ijma and ijtihad (individual thoughts). I haven't claimed to be a scholar here or anyhwre else; but your constant referring to that weak excuse speaks volumes to the point that your so-called scholars really have nothing to offer you. Nor have I claimed that a complete lack of knowledge of the Arabic language. Even if one were to be totally blank on the language, what have you offered that precisely negates the points I've offered in my arguments as fact that Allah nowhere gives the idea of a bridge across Hell fire in his Qur'an?

Tiptronic:

Can you translate the verse or not?

Please do so and let's see how significantly your own translation differs from what I've pointed out previously.

Tiptronic:

Whats your point?! Its says "taken to" not "enter into". This is a poor attempt at trying to prove that everyone is going to hell.

Your prophet said every one of you without exception will be "taken to" Hell, and you're confusing yourself further by calling that a weak attempt at trying to prove it from the mouth of your own prophet! Unless you need to go back to the classroom for a crash course on English, please kindly explain the difference between taken to and enter into Hell. Those who are "taken to" Hell fire "remain outside" it, is it? It has now become "taken to" instead of the "come within sight of" that you earlier submitted, not so (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-66264.32.html#msg1300589)? Please impress me some more with your typical poker.

@Tiptronic,


Hehe. . I see you sweating already, my dear sir. Surely, the fires of Hell are said to cool down for Muslims, but you just can't stand the heat before judgement day!

Tiptronic:

Here are nearly all of them:

19:71 And every one of you will come within sight of it: this is, with thy Sustainer, a decree that must be fulfilled. (M Asad)

19:71 Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished. (Yusuf Ali)

19:71 There is not one of you but shall approach it. That is a fixed ordinance of thy Lord. (Picktall)

19:71 And there is not one of you but shall come to it; this is an unavoidable decree of your Lord. (Shakir)

19:71 Not one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; that for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined. (Arberry)

19:71 There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished. (Khan/Muhsin)

NONE of which say anything about going into hell, or burning in hell.

In any case, please take a look at Arberry:

19:71 Not one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; that for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined.

I made a simple case of people being made to "enter" into Hell fire by Allah's irrevocable decree; and you only came back sweating to argue against it while unwittingly establishing my point! This is unbelieveable! If you're so convinced that NONE of the translations you offered said anything about "going into hell", could you kindly tell us what Arberry meant by stating infact that they "go down to" it? What really is the difference your argument makes between --

going into hell -- (yours)

and

going down to hell? -- (Arberry's)

For graphic effect, add to that semantics the translation offered by Dr. Mohammad Mahmoud Ghali whose translation is heralded as a "masterpiece" by Muslims. This is how he translates that verse:

'And decidedly not one of you (there is), except that he will go (herded) down to it;
that, for your Lord, has been a thing decreed, a must.'

So, Tiptronic, please kindly offer us the significant difference in the translations that say every one of you "will go down to" and "go herded down to" Hell; and how they are saying the opposite of your claim that "NONE of which say anything about going into hell"!

And NO, please don't even waste what is left of your already dented scholarship trying to prove that to "pass over" Hell fire is the same as "shall descend into the same [hell]" as (Sale) puts it! Incase you missed that, to "descend into the same Hell" is NOT to "pass over" it!

Oh, by the way, admittedly I didn't spend 20 years of my life devoted to studying the Qur'an. However, you could as well take a look at Dr. M. M. Ghali's summary CV on: (http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Guestcv.asp?hGuestID=tba1UD), where among other things are the following:

"Born in 1920, Professor Ghali is one of the leading international figures in the field of Islamic studies, particularly in Qur’anic studies.

Dr. Ghali has spent 20 years interpreting the meanings of the Glorious Qur’an into English. His English translation (Towards Understanding the Ever-Glorious Qur’an) is a masterpiece in the field."

There, my dear Tiptronic. . . quarrel with that all you wish!

Tiptronic:

Yeah, thats the problem with copying from AI. Yiu don't know what you're talking about and you can't even provide me with hadith books/numbers. lol

You just don't know what you're talking about, poor you. There is nothing sectarian about which hadiths are true or false.

You lie when you say "the hadiths that most Muslims say are fabricated". You don't know whether this is a fabricated hadith or not because you don't even know which book this hadith came from!!! Was it Bukhari/Muslim/Tirmizi etc?? You just don't know.

I don't serve all my amunitions all at once! Since you haven't been able to provide the verse in the Qur'an for what I asked for, no need wasting further scholarship on you.   Until you learn to read straight and prove you undertand English, let's just keep this discussion at your level of assimilation, yes?

Accusing me of lying is not such a worry. I've explained earlier that most Muslims claim there are fabricated hadiths - and I gave weblinks thereto. If those on the weblinks lied to you, that's no bother to me personally as we know that's what Muslims do anyways. It's just so sad that they would do that to you, and yet you deliberately miss the point I made earlier that it is not my responsibility to be sympathetic to any divide or sectarian parties in the more than 70 sects in Islam. So, if what a particular denomination says does not appeal to you and therefore merits your accusation, it's nothing new - one of your own (babs787) has referred to your Muslim translators of the Qur'an as "deluded authors that lied in order to deceive"!! (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-52589.0.html#msg1102498) and (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-52589.32.html#msg1108087)

Tiptronic:

Translations are a rough idea of what the Quran means, not the Quran itself. It quite humourous, you relying on translation to get the meaning. Go learn some Arabic (more than ahlan wasahlan) and then make commentary to me about the Quran.

I didn't just rely on translations - much the same as you did but have not been able to show what you claim is in the Qur'an either ways. Translations being 'a rough idea of what the Qur'an means' do not help the widely held concept that once the Qur'an is translated into another language, it immediately ceases to be the word of Allah! Is it not the same translations you've relied on, albeit parry around those that you think help you particular denominational slants?

Tiptronic:

You just have no idea.

Its typical for such people to make scholars of themselves.

lol, I prefer the opinion of someone who IS a scholar to that of some apostate, anyday!

No worries. I haven't made a scholar of myself; and if you just did that, thanks for the accolades - I'd rather be the simple learner I've always been hitherto.

Since you prefer the personal opinion (or ijtihad) of someone who IS a scholar to your caling me an apostate, then please take another look at M. M. Ghali's "masterpiece" translation of Sura 19:71 ~ 'And decidedly not one of you (there is), except that he will go (herded) down to it; that, for your Lord, has been a thing decreed, a must.' Not my opinion now, mind you; and you can prefer to go herded down to Hell all you wish!

Tiptronic:

I am simply wasting my time explaining this to you. You're all the same, arguing about something you know nothing about, the copy/paste warriors!

I can't waste anymore time here, so i say thank you for havin me and Goodbye.

May Allah guide you to the only and Ultimate Haqq!

Sad to see you leave like that. I'd thought there would indeed have been loads waiting for me from your pen. Obviously, after the bloviation you'd just have to let your incapability enjoy some good rest from what you can't prove from your Qur'an.

May God Himself open your eyes and save you from what you don't understand.

Regards.