BeLookingIDIOT:

The earliest non-christian reference to Jesus is even an interpolation added later to his works by latter xtians

Let's even grant that they are correct so what? It doesn't still add any credence to the son of god story.

LordReed:


What gymnastics? When people say god does not change are they referring to him changing his being or him changing his mind?

The one attempting gymnastics here is you.

Why are you even trying to do this? God cannot change simply means his being and attributes does not change.
It's something I explained already that people can change for example, from being a good person to a bad person.
It's a funny fallacy to equate changing one's mind on decision making to changing one self on attributes and behavior.

I repeat, there's no gymnastics possible here

Image123:


Serpents are wise and subtle, don't lose guard. It's like father like son.

Sure Brother.
Thank you
I had a long discussion with him before though

LordReed:


Again it is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. Mentioning the leader of a religious sect means nothing in the grand scheme of things. There have been very many religious leaders in the annals of history, Jesus is accorded far more significance and power than most of them so if these historical accounts can't verify these powers then they are not important.

That's your wish and opinion. I am not deflecting from my argument for presenting case of Jesus' record (directly or not) in works of ancient history.
An atheist gave a challenge, with promise attached. The challenge was met and he just waved it away. Now you are trying to help change the goal post.
I'm sorry, I'm not interested in playing a game of cheat.

LordReed:


I am not arguing for Workch, I am stating my position as an atheist as a counter to your assertion in which you tried to lump all atheists together.

How are you different? You are still playing the same game "bring proof outside the Bible".
Is that not what atheists do?
You only helped in moving the goal post, and restarting the game with your universal rule - "no Bible"

Pelecius:

Why are you even trying to do this? God cannot change simply means his being and attributes does not change.
It's something I explained already that people can change for example, from being a good person to a bad person.
It's a funny fallacy to equate changing one's mind on decision making to changing one self on attributes and behavior.

I repeat, there's no gymnastics possible here

Simple fact is when people talk of changing they do not mean changing being or changing attributes even changing from good to bad is change of mind essentially.

The only scripture reference to the god changing is in Malachi talking about why the Israelites were not consumed, the only way that makes any sense is if it is referring to the god's purported covenant with Israel which is all about what the god said and the decisions he made not about his attributes or being.

What is the fallacy here?

Pelecius:

That's your wish and opinion. I am not deflecting from my argument for presenting case of Jesus' record (directly or not) in works of ancient history.
An atheist gave a challenge, with promise attached. The challenge was met and he just waved it away. Now you are trying to help change the goal post.
I'm sorry, I'm not interested in playing a game of cheat.

Pelecius:

How are you different? You are still playing the same game "bring proof outside the Bible".
Is that not what atheists do?
You only helped in moving the goal post, and restarting the game with your universal rule - "no Bible"

This is the problem with people like you who "otherize" people, you forget you are dealing with individuals and even when your attention is called to it you are so blinded by your prejudice it affects your reasoning. I have made it clear that I am not arguing about Jesus' existence but about his purported supernatural ability but your prejudice won't let you engage my point you are still talking to me as if you are talking to some monolithic personality called atheist.

Is Jesus the first person to be attributed supernatural ability? Why should we believe his simply because the bible says so when many other people have their scriptures telling of their own favourite religious leader's supernatural abilities.

LordReed:


This is the problem with people like you who "otherize" people, you forget you are dealing with individuals and even when your attention is called to it you are so blinded by your prejudice it affects your reasoning. I have made it clear that I am not arguing about Jesus' existence but about his purported supernatural ability but your prejudice won't let you engage my point you are still talking to me as if you are talking to some monolithic personality called atheist.

Is Jesus the first person to be attributed supernatural ability? Why should we believe his simply because the bible says so when many other people have their scriptures telling of their own favourite religious leader's supernatural abilities.

Worst still, the so called Jesus performed lots of magic... Turned water to wine (really?), healed the sick (in a world with no hospital), cured the blind etc and promised his followers will do much more... We are still looking for the first blind man to cured... Whats even the physical relevance of the existence of Jesus

A Jesus that was God the creator didnt teach us anything relevant in his once in a life time opportunity to show himself to the world. Not even the invention of microphone or loud speakers knowing it would be easier for him to speak to five thousand people and awe them with both his invention and insightful words... How long will we continue to decive ourselves.

frank317:


Worst still, the so called Jesus performed lots of magic... Turned water to wine (really?), healed the sick (in a world with no hospital), cured the blind etc and promised his followers will do much more... We are still looking for the first blind man to cured... Whats even the physical relevance of the existence of Jesus

A Jesus that was God the creator didnt teach us anything relevant in his once in a life time opportunity to show himself to the world. Not even the invention of microphone or loud speakers knowing it would be easier for him to speak to five thousand people and awe them with both his invention and insightful words... How long will we continue to decive ourselves.

I am still waiting for Jesus to turn up as they said, let him turn some water to wine let's party. LoL!

LordReed:

Simple fact is when people talk of changing they do not mean changing being or changing attributes even changing from good to bad is change of mind essentially.

Not true! Every time people say "you don change" they always mean change of being. Eg "if you see Joe now, e don change, E na gentleman now"

The exception is when the change is specific only to an area, of which the communication clearly shows that what it addresses, is directed to a certain area. Eg "Osas don change, E no dey do medicine again na music E dey do now."

The information is very clear and reasonably understandable and you know all these.

Therefore you know the difference between the Right to Change my Decisions yet I do not change from a whole personality and attitude change.

frank317:

... We are still looking for the first blind man to cured... Whats even the physical relevance of the existence of Jesus...

See how unreasonable you people can be? How do you expect to find such a one when the Act was in the course of ordinary living?

And of course would you, as evil as you have become, would you want it revealed that "this is the man whom The Lord healed? Or lo, here is the Ark of the Covenant and the manna which was written in the Bible?

No, you would have it covered, permanently sealed and hidden from sight.

frank317:
A Jesus that was God the creator didnt teach us anything relevant in his once in a life time opportunity to show himself to the world...

See how mightily unreasonable you people can be?

The mere fact you did not listen in class does not mean lectures was not given.

LordReed:

I am still waiting for Jesus to turn up as they said, let him turn some water to wine let's party. LoL!

The Next "turn up" is The Judgement of all the evils and their cohorts for their onward transmission to the prison of the Lake of Fire.

Pelecius:

Why are you even trying to do this?

You are arguing with Satan himself. He will always seek to speak against Natural Truths when it is against him that is what we are warning you about.

And he is the lord recruiter of all the Haters of God in here hiding under the name 'Atheist'!

Dtruthspeaker:


Not true! Every time people say "you don change" they always mean change of being. Eg "if you see Joe now, e don change, E na gentleman now"

The exception is when the change is specific only to an area, of which the communication clearly shows that what it addresses, is directed to a certain area. Eg "Osas don change, E no dey do medicine again na music E dey do now."

The information is very clear and reasonably understandable and you know all these.

Therefore you know the difference between the Right to Change my Decisions yet I do not change from a whole personality and attitude change.

All these changes you highlight are all from the mind even a personality change is from the mind.

Dtruthspeaker:


The Next "turn up" is The Judgement and of all the evils and their cohorts for their onward transmission to the prison of the Lake if Fire.

Make e come first, person wey come from long journey go first rest. LoL!

LordReed:

All these changes you highlight are all from the mind even a personality change is from the mind.

That's Why I Love Truth It is so powerful that even you, in spite of all your efforts, could not suppress it.

See, how you confessed exactly the Truth of The Word of God which hath Truly Said "keep your hearts/mind/soul with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of Life"

The Bible Always Says the Truth!

Dtruthspeaker:


That's Why I Love Truth It is so powerful that even you, in spite of all your efforts, could not suppress it.

See, how you cinfessed exactly the Truth of The Word of God which hath Truly Said "keep your hearts/mind/soul with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of Life"

The Bible Always Says the Truth!

Good, then also agree that change spoken about is the god changing his mind and not his being or attributes.

LordReed:


Good, then also agree that change spoken about is the god changing his mind and not his being or attributes.

There is Change of Mind that brings about a change of Being AND there is change of mind which does not include a change of Being, as I have given you the natural examples of the differences and it's application thereof!

Dtruthspeaker:


There is Change of Mind that brings about a change of Being AND there is change of mind which does not include a change of Being, as I have given you the natural examples of the differences and it's application thereof!

Then agree that the change spoken about is the change of mind which does not include a change of Being.

Image123:


The problem is probably you needing to understand the meaning and context of "God never changes" i.e. the same for ever.

You want to pretend like Jesus and God have the same personality?

Image123:


It's a reaping of your vain attempts to lump gods with God.

Can't your god come and fight for himself?

Workch:
The book written by Stephen Meyer is not only largely philosophical but fallacious in that regard

He argued Based on cause and effect to explain intelligent design which will philosophically lead to an infinite regress of infinitesimal causes. He didn’t even provide evidence for this.

Secondly, dude said since we have not found evidence for chemical Evolution, chance is that intelligent design must have occurred. That’s a serious case of fallacy of appealing to ignorance. Because we haven’t find the evidence is not evidence that god did it. You have to find evidence for your “god did it” still.


Thirdly, he did not argue against evolution, you seem not to understand his premise. He argued against abiogenesis, he didn’t say that evolution didn’t occur, he only concluded that the process must have been designed. He’s just an average Christian trying to look for evidence for his conclusions instead of the doing it the other way. You see why he can’t be taken seriously?

As you can see, we are not very informed in Nigeria, and we just believe what we are told, and this is despite Jesus telling his followers to be scientists who ask and knock and seek with all their hearts and soul and minds and beings. Or is that not what a scientist ought to do, research? But, even the religion, we misunderstand.

Take the Scientist Eve who refused to believe and therefore used her senses to check if it is true that on the day that she eats she shall surely die. We read what happened after she ate, her eyes opened, she gained wisdom and she freed her and her stupid believing Adam from ignorance and slavery and went on to live a further 800 years or so after eating, during which she and her so called descendants have gone on to "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" and are now on the way to do the same to Mars and Jupiter and Uranus etc, and yet my people are afraid of eating fruits of knowledge for fear it would kill them!

If only we could really do as Christ is written to have said, and ask and knock and seek with our own eyes and hearts and souls and minds and being, but I guess the so called Holy Spirit has not ministered to us, yet. When it does, libraries would be like 10 minutes away from every home and we would understand instead of stupidly just believe like demons who tremble. But before then, we must have mud rubbed in our eyes and we must bath in the Pool of Siloam so that we may indeed see, I guess.

Theworldisvanity:
Friend I cant be panicky because of whatever any other religion says because I know my God is the only true God, every other is a fake. Eternal life is with Jesus Christ my Saviour

Why is Jebus the true god for you? Because you were born into it?

Christianity is all you've know your entire life.

LordReed:


Simple fact is when people talk of changing they do not mean changing being or changing attributes even changing from good to bad is change of mind essentially.

The only scripture reference to the god changing is in Malachi talking about why the Israelites were not consumed, the only way that makes any sense is if it is referring to the god's purported covenant with Israel which is all about what the god said and the decisions he made not about his attributes or being.

What is the fallacy here?

No amount of gymnastics will work here. And this could be the last time I will respond to this topic of change, it's something which is crystal clear. Changing one's mind on decision is NOT the same as changing one's attributes and behavior. His objections are as follows:
1. God does not change, but he changed his mind (referencing were he said he was grieved that he made man).
2. God does not change but he is portrayed differently in New Testament.

Those are what I responded too. He didn't raise any objections to them because it was clear that the first does not just follow and the second was wrong (likely due to ignorance).

Lastly, Malachi is not the only reference of the unchanging nature of God.


GOD DOES NOT CHANGE

Pelecius:

No amount of gymnastics will work here. And this could be the last time I will respond to this topic of change, it's something which is crystal clear. Changing one's mind on decision is NOT the same as changing one's attributes and behavior. His objections are as follows:
1. God does not change, but he changed his mind (referencing were he said he was grieved that he made man).
2. God does not change but he is portrayed differently in New Testament.

Those are what I responded too. He didn't raise any objections to them because it was clear that the first does not just follow and the second was wrong (likely due to ignorance).

Lastly, Malachi is not the only reference of the unchanging nature of God.


GOD DOES NOT CHANGE

Nobody said they were the same so you were probably arguing with yourself.

Mention the other places were the god's unchanging nature was stated.

LordReed:


This is the problem with people like you who "otherize" people, you forget you are dealing with individuals and even when your attention is called to it you are so blinded by your prejudice it affects your reasoning. I have made it clear that I am not arguing about Jesus' existence but about his purported supernatural ability but your prejudice won't let you engage my point you are still talking to me as if you are talking to some monolithic personality called atheist.

Is Jesus the first person to be attributed supernatural ability? Why should we believe his simply because the bible says so when many other people have their scriptures telling of their own favourite religious leader's supernatural abilities.

You only expressed your description about me which cannot even be found in what I wrote. I said he played atheist game of "don't use the Bible" and you still confirmed it by giving same condition. Yet, you are complaining that I lump all atheist together.
I'm not the one with prejudice here, I only stated what I've always observed, which is "prove your God without using the Bible).


Now, I'm not going to engage you with discussing whether what the Gospel wrote about him is true or not. There are millions of works on why the Gospels can be trusted. You can check them by yourself if you are truly interested in getting logical and rational reasons why we should believe the Gospels.

LordReed:


Nobody said they were the same so you were probably arguing with yourself.

Mention the other places were the god's unchanging nature was stated.

Can you just imagine? I'm arguing with myself?

Psa 55:19
Psa 102: 27
Heb 13:8
Jam 1:17
And others.
Peace out

LordReed:


Nobody said they were the same so you were probably arguing with yourself.

Mention the other places were the god's unchanging nature was stated.

Despite God's evolution not detailed in a single verse or chapter, God's changing nature is replete throughout the God book, the hugest being from wrathful Yahweh to forgiving Christ to the explaining Holy Spirit that are all supposedly within us humans. We just have not yet evolved to see (or accept) it yet.

It requires reading the God book from the beginning page by page to the end to understand and see God evolved over time, but many despite claimimg to have never done so, reading a la carte instead.

The beginning of Wisdom is not fear, however, but the understanding of God, which most have not yet bothered to ask and knock and seek for. But glory to God that is changing as threads as these show.

Pelecius:

Can you just imagine? I'm arguing with myself?

Psa 55:19
Psa 102: 27
Heb 13:8
Jam 1:17
And others.
Peace out

Hard to separate the unchanging view and opinion of the writers of the verses above from the changing and evolving God itself, I guess, unless one sees with ones own eyes.

LordReed:


Nobody said they were the same so you were probably arguing with yourself.

Mention the other places were the god's unchanging nature was stated.

I wonder why you still debate pelecius. Can’t you see he doesn’t understand anything outside of the Bible?

I stopped taking him seriously when he said there’s evidence for speciation and adaptation but none for evolution. The most ignorant statement I have read on nairaland.
I showed that statement to my nephew currently taking his NECO exams and we haven’t gotten over the comedy yet.

Pelecius:

You only expressed your description about me which cannot even be found in what I wrote. I said he played atheist game of "don't use the Bible" and you still confirmed it by giving same condition. Yet, you are complaining that I lump all atheist together.
I'm not the one with prejudice here, I only stated what I've always observed, which is "prove your God without using the Bible).


Now, I'm not going to engage you with discussing whether what the Gospel wrote about him is true or not. There are millions of works on why the Gospels can be trusted. You can check them by yourself if you are truly interested in getting logical and rational reasons why we should believe the Gospels.

You are talking to me and responding to what others have said instead of engaging what I said, that is as prejudiced as they come.

Others have similarly written millions of works on why the gospels are not reliable sources for proving supernatural powers attributed to historical figures. Go read them too so we can discuss it.

Pelecius:

Can you just imagine? I'm arguing with myself?

Yeah because that was not my argument so I don't know why you brought it up.

Psa 55:19God shall hear, and afflict them, even he that abideth of old. Selah. Because they have no changes, therefore they fear not God.

Psa 102: 26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

Talking about the god not aging, is this the not changing you mean?

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Jam 1:17

The same Jesus that became a human being? What is unchanging here?