How many of you theists would be in your particular religion if things like this didn't happen when you were too young and credulous? Before you developed critical thinking skills, they were already turning you into  zombies who shouldn't question their particular brand of superstition because they were "revealed".
The usual excuse is that they do this to teach children "morality" but the so called morality they teach adds up to "WE ARE RIGHT, THEY ARE EVIL" . If you reallly want to teach morality, you would take all the fear and superstition out of it and base it on common sense.
Be good because we all share this world and living morally and with sound ethics and values makes society and life more endurable. If you're not, we laws that have been developed over centuries that will be used to apply pnitive measures if need be. Plus, we only have one life to liveand if you're lucky enough to be of sound mind and body you should strive to be your best and appreciate life, nature and people.
In contrast, religions (especially the judaic ones black people are addicted to) tell you to be good because you don't want to go to hell.  If people don't agree with you, they are going to hell too.  Why? Because god said so. AND YOU GET TO LIVE FOREVER!!!!!  (the fear of death)

After all these a$$ up, face down groveling praying and superman stories about allah, this kid will grow up and when he sees something scientific like evolution, he will repeat the company line, "I DID'T COME FROM NO MONKEY, ALLAH THE UNSEEN MADE ME FROM WATER" 

Religion: Making ridiculous claims since cave men wondered, "what happens when we die" but couldn't deal  with the apparent answer.

“Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis. The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life.” – Sigmund Freud

this kind of topic usually gets very few replies, besides all religious people in nigeria have gone through what that little boy has gone thorough in the picture and that two and a half year old girl on stage with rapsody in one hand and microphone in the other.

manmustwac:

this kind of topic usually gets very few replies, besides all religious people in nigeria have gone through what that little boy has gone thorough in the picture and that two and a half year old girl on stage with rapsody in one hand and microphone in the other.

You're right, even I went through the madness. Fortunately I snapped out of it quickly. The truth is bitter though and I don't think there are any apologetics than can help them refute it. 

Indoctrination is the reason some muslims on this site can rail against the christians' holy trinity while being totally oblivious to Islam's inconsistencies and fallacies.

If you ask muslims about paul's road to damascus experience, they'll say he made it up. If you ask christians about mohammed's revelation in a cave, they'll say he made it up and if you ask a muslim and a christian about Joseph Smith's golden plates, they'll say he was batsh_t insane.  If you ask a buddhist, he'll say these guys are not enlightened.  Ask any religious adherent who was raised in the religion and they'll all say the others have no idea about the nature of god, heaven, hell, nirvana or whatever it is their god has promised them.

A rational person who hasn't been indoctrinated would call the three stories exactly what they are. Bullsh_t.
You can tell a child anything and claim it's real without any evidence, as long as you have enough people to help with the confirmation bias when doubt creeps in. The only way an adult would believe such tripe is if they are gullible or just not educated enough, downtrodden and desperate. Even then it would be an hard sell.

Christians in particular like to brag about the two thousand year history of their religion while ignoring the subjugation of various cultures and people, bloodshed and the most important thing that keeps their rank consistent. Childhood Indoctrination.
The abused become the abusers and the cycle never ends; unless the child grows up and has enough independence and smarts to see through the fog.
Glad it's the 21st century though, information is at your fingertips and I'm not talking about holy books.
The internet, the gateway to seemingly infinite information.
But my people have to have stable power supply first in order to log on to the internet. So naturally they do what they do best, nothing PRAY for miracles and for the "enemies of progress" to DIE DIE DIE!!! . Soon as god,allah, shango, amadioha or whoever answers prayers does so, maybe the religious delusion among nigerians and black folks in general will subside.
YEA RIGHT!
Tragic and hilarious (when black folks bicker, fight and kill each other over jewish and arab myths).
Maybe without the religious books, they'll realise we are all the same but with different skin tones and that we are not some special prize in an epic cosmic battle between good and evil!!!!

Seriously, why would an adult who is physically and mentally fit have any reason to believe that a talking snake convinced a woman to eat a fruit and because of this, an all powerful invincible god gets pissed. He then sends his son to earth so that the son can be killed to atone for this "sin" for both the past generations and the future generations that don't even exist yet. The son then wakes up after he had been dead for three days and floats into the sky some days later. And more importantly, he was born of a virgin after a ghost impregnated her.

Look up in the sky, everything you see was created just for humans. The entire 14 billion year expanse of the universe was created just for YOU.

BONUS: If you believe the above story, you get to survive your death. Not physically of course, but spiritually!! This immaterial thing called a soul (which can't be proven to exist either) actually animates your body and it will get to live in neverneverland heaven; where it will bask in the invincible guy's glory forever and ever. Amen.

@Poster
Pr 22:6 ¶ Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it

which way would you rather have your child trained
smooking the wrong stuff, carrying guns?
Well it depends on the kind of person you are sha!

mabell:

@Poster
Pr 22:6 ¶ Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it

which way would you rather have your child trained
smooking the wrong stuff, carrying guns?
Well it depends on the kind of person you are sha!

lmao, I knew someone was going to come up with a verse from the holy book.
The verse is right of course, the way is definietely wrong though. You do not need to instill the fear of the invincible boogey man called "god" and the heaven/hell reward to train a child.
You teach ethical behaviour, morality that doesn't inconvenience other individuals, reality, science and the likelihood that this is the only chance you get at life and it will be wise if you don't mess it up. Life is hard and has it's ups and downs but the decisions we make can make the good times great and relieve the pain of the hard times. Nature can't be controlled or placated so just respect it.
Introduce the child to philosophy like Kant's categorical imperative and mill's utilitarianism. The former stresses acting how you would want others to act in similar situations and the former can be used for more ambiguous situations where the right and ethical thing to do might not be so clear.

That's just a start and it doesn't even involve threats of hell or reward of heaven, just treat others with respect, appreciate life and nature, never be ignorant and realise there is no pie in the sky.

Now, kids are going to be kids but at least they won't become irrational, gullible adults with imaginary friends.

If children were to be presented with the bible,koran and other religious text on their 21st birthdays and told to accept the stories and assertions of the books, majority of the kids will laugh and will NEVER accept what they read. . . . .Religion is culture and culture is a way of life. . . .People have to be indoctrinated at an early age and made to accept that their own version of mythology is right while other versions are wrong. . .Children just accept because they have no reason to believe that their parents are lying to them. . . . .

@Martian.
It actually saddens me that people can't see the ironies in their faith. Christianity teaches us to love and care for neighbours and even enemies alike but it is in the Bible that some people are chosen - isrealites - while others are unbelievers , was it not the same God who made them. Wars have been waged against the philistines and egyptians for centuries and are seen as evil people. If truly he's a God of love and equality attacks on other tribes wouldn't be encouraged cos they all stem from the same ancestor , Adam , right ?.
I don't even want to get started on muslims who claim to be in a religion of peace but proclaim war on unbelievers.

Science has answered more questions than religion has ever had.

@OP: what a pretentious rant!

apocalypse:

@Martian.
It actually saddens me that people can't see the ironies in their faith. Christianity teaches us to love and care for neighbours and even enemies alike but it is in the Bible that some people are chosen - isrealites - while others are unbelievers , was it not the same God who made them. Wars have been waged against the philistines and egyptians for centuries and are seen as evil people. If truly he's a God of love and equality attacks on other tribes wouldn't be encouraged cos they all stem from the same ancestor , Adam , right ?.
I don't even want to get started on muslims who claim to be in a religion of peace but proclaim war on unbelievers.

Science has answered more questions than religion has ever had.

^You need to read the bible more. Your claims are wrong. What questions has science answered?

I just wanted to say . . . that little boy is soooo cute! just adorable. How can the OP be mad at anything after seeing such a handsome young fella?

aletheia:

@OP: what a pretentious rant!
^You need to read the bible more. Your claims are wrong. What questions has science answered?

Pretentious? Hey, I'm just calling like I see it. Like Mazaje said, if I wan't born into a Christian home and someone came tome with the Christian story at 21, I would have laughed hysterically. If I the person was serious I would have thought that the person has some mental issues.
Read the bible more? That would be defeating the purpose. We are trying to get people to stop taking mythology serious. You holy book is just a collection of second hand Jewish folklore that has been corrupted by translation and transliteration; y'all can't even decide if Mary was a virgin or a young maiden.
The owners of the story (the Jews) don't even believe their own bs, but black folks think it's the only absolute truth. Tragic comedy!
They tried to find evidence for the exodus but came up with a whole lot of nothing!! Don't believe me? Google is your friend, and since you said you are a doctor, I think you should know how to verify the authenticity of a source, so I don't expect you to go to some quack website like answersingenesis.com, we have a guy who does that around here and he never makes an iota of sense.

What questions has science answered?
Science hasn't answered a lot of questions, science just come up with theories. You know, those pesky theories like the "germ theory of disease". That's the foundation of your profession, isn't it Doc? Need I go on?
Maybe the knowledge and ingenuity that made this virtual world we converse in was found in the holy book. The blueprint for the Hubble space telescope can be found in the book of leviticus. GPS technology was proposed the the 5th chapter of Jeremiah. Electricity was predicted in the book of revelation right after the verse talking about angels holding the winds at the four corners of the earth. The coordinates to get to the moon are found in genesis right after the tower of babel story is used as the origin of the world's different languages. Don't let me get into what other holy books have given us!!!

JeSoul:

I just wanted to say . . . that little boy is soooo cute! just adorable. How can the OP be mad at anything after seeing such a handsome young fella?

I know, such a beautiful child. I bet Osama Bin Laden was even cuter. He got indoctrinated and grew up to be such a fine fellow. He was convinced that his holy book was infallible too, right up to the moment his cute face stopped a bullet.

mazaje:

If children were to be presented with the bible,koran and other religious text on their 21st birthdays and told to accept the stories and assertions of the books, majority of the kids will laugh and will NEVER accept what they read. . . . .Religion is culture and culture is a way of life. . . .People have to be indoctrinated at an early age and made to accept that their own version of mythology is right while other versions are wrong. . .Children just accept because they have no reason to believe that their parents are lying to them. . . . .

This is what I don't understand, and nobody seem to be able to answer me,

If I were born in China, 97% chance I would be a buddist and I would laugh at the concept of another faith.


Why cant we all get along??

It doesn't matter the indoctrination of children. When Christians pray the way they ought,the power of salvation will break through the Walls and barriers of false religion. Salvation will be wrought. Only if we spend time on our knees enough.

dare2think:

This is what I don't understand, and nobody seem to be able to answer me,

If I were born in China, 97% chance I would be a buddist and I would laugh at the concept of another faith.
Why cant we all get along??

And if you were born in Saudi Arabia, you'll probably be a muslim and preach to us that mohammed was the last prophet of allah. If you were born in Louisiana, you could be a voodoo practitioner or even practice native american spirituality. Religion is synonimous with culture and the reason you're a christian is because you went through the same things the little boy is going through and colonisation/slavery has also rendered native african religion(culture) impotent.  In America, black culture is rooted in christianity and since it's the only thing that gave them succour during slavery, they hang on it to the detriment of black people and most are to willfully ignorant to examiine it. Same with every predominantely black society on this planet.
You're a christian not because its the right religion, but because you were born into it.

Joagbaje:

It doesn't matter the indoctrination of children. When Christians pray the way they ought,the power of salvation will break through the Walls and barriers of false religion. Salvation will be wrought. Only if we spend time on our knees enough.

No pastor, there is no false religion or true religion. They are all based on myths. There might be names of actual people or places in your holy book, other holy also contain similar things but that doesn't make them factual even though people believe them. The bible is just as factual as the quran and the quaran is as factual as homer's iliad.
There is no salvation to be wrought, you don't have a soul that needs to be saved because of the talking snake and the n_ked cave people who ate the fruit. So stop spending times on your knees and more time learning about history. REAL HISTORY, not the type found in a book that claims food fell down from heaven from some happy wanderers in the sahara desert.

@Martian

I just read over my post again (I did not construct the post well), and it looks as though am questioning your assertions but Infact , I agree with you.
But bigotry seem to be the order of the day. Everyone is trying to prove their religion is the right one. If only we spend all that effort on humanity the world would be an utopian entity right now.

Joagbaje:

It doesn't matter the indoctrination of children. When Christians pray the way they ought,the power of salvation will break through the Walls and barriers of false religion. Salvation will be wrought. Only if we spend time on our knees enough.

Which are the false religion?

Is it the little boy's fault (the boy in the pix) that he was born in a muslim region??

What about those in predominatly muslim states, where they were born and died, generation after generation. Are you calling their religion false just because you might have been "lucky" to be born in a christian region.

How is that fair?

dare2think:

@Martian

I just read over my post again, and it looks as though am questioning your assertions but I am actually puzzled. And I agree with you.
But bigotry seem to be the order of the day. Everyone one trying to prove their religion is the right one. If only we spend all that effort on humanity the world would be an utopian entity right now.

I know you weren't questioning my assertions, I was just agreeing with your statement about you been born in China.  Religion divides because human fraility makes some us susceptible to irrational fears.  The preciousness of life also makes the idea that one day you will cease to exist very scary. But death can't be worse than when you didn't exist because death means you cease to exist, point blank. Religion offers hope, false hope, but hope nonetheless that if you do this, that and the other, you'll get to live forever. People want to live forever and if they have been told since birth that theirs is the ONLY path that leads to eternal life, they will be reluctant to let go. If evidence comes along to refute their claims, group think and confirmation bias help strenghten their beliefs and they hold fast to that hope.
If people are not indoctrinated but are exposed to information and are properly educated, religion will start to lose it's grip on society and then maybe your bolded statement above will be possible.
Until then, humans will continue to argue about whose abstract superman is actually the REAL one.
I was dead before i was born and it didn't bother me then, so it shouldn't bother me now. Life is to fickle to be worried about some invincible guy who makes demands of you through other men but never shows up to do it himself unless he's showing off in his holy book.

[quote author=Martian link[quote][/quote]


What you are today is the product of what you receive all through your childhood years. A man can only portray the kind of training he/she has been through.
Me for one, I was brought up in a different religion/believe which is far different from what I believe right now. There is one thing to see a change is another thing to embrace the changes that come to you at any given time.

This is the reason why we pray, that the truth (Word of God) will be granted all men as we teach and preach the Gospel in our Schools, Work Place, Society, Street, Market and our Environment etc.
Acts 19:20 (Amplified Bible)
20Thus the Word of the Lord [concerning the [a]attainment through Christ of eternal salvation in the kingdom of God] grew and spread and intensified, prevailing mightily

@kris2glo

May i ask what it is you believed before you became a disciple of christ?
Everyone has already heard your gospel, now what y'all need to do is keep it to yourselves because your beliefs are not compatible with societies that want to progress in the 21st century. Preaching your gospel is the reason homosexuals are persecuted and denied their human rights. Your gospel lead to the abberation called creationism. Your gospel is the reason someone like Oyedepo can own four jets in Nigeria for selling people a product that can't be verified to be authentic until the buyer's death. Isn't that what Nigerians call 419

I get you Martian and I see your points, But I have to say, Personally I have an innate feeling about the presense of a strong force within me. Whether it is due to the induced indoctrination you say, or the fear, I dont know. BuT I believe in God,

However I still acknowlegde the havoc religion has done to humanity and how It has been used as a source for manipulation.
I feel the true essence of religion has been corrupted and Individuals use the text to satisfy their "fears" and greed. Througout documented history, some people who claim their faith is the epitome of love and salvation often do the opposite and contradict themselves. This forum is a case study.

I feel there are some valuable teachings we can get from religion i.e loving thy neighbor and helping the poor. I do not feel as you are , Martian, that I am better than you because I believe in God or because you dont share my beliefs you are condemned to hell. That is not my position.

Fact is, crime is commited accross the spectrum of humanity, religiuous or non-religious. And morality is dependant on the individual and influenced by circumstances and environment. One of the Irony of some folks on this forum that I noticed is that they seem to pen prosperity on religion. Which is clearly not the case as prosperity is a natural phenomena that crosses the boundaries of religion. There are several rich Atheist as there are several rich individual of other faiths. That is my view.

One more thing, do not view theist folks as Ignorant. Evryone is entitled to their beliefs and faiths just as you are entitled to your beliefs but debates must not be avoided as we must continue to question each other so we can learn and also look within.
.  
we can still chat more if you want.

^you my friend are full of wisdom. @All, compare this well presented case vs. the rantings that opened the thread.

dare2think:

I get you Martian and I see your points, But I have to say, Personally I have an innate feeling about the presense of a strong force within me. Whether it is due to the induced indoctrination you say, or the fear, I dont know. BuT I believe in God

You poor thing! you were 'abused' a child.

However I still acknowlegde the havoc religion has done to humanity and how It has been used as a source for manipulation.
I feel the true essence of religion has been corrupted and Individuals use the text to satisfy their "fears" and greed. Througout documented history, some people who claim their faith is the epitome of love and salvation often do the opposite and contradict themselves. This forum is a case study.

I feel there are some valuable teachings we can get from religion i.e loving thy neighbor and helping the poor. I do net feel as you are , Martian, that I am better than you because I believe in God or because you dont share my beliefs you are condemned to hell. That is not my position.

Fact is, crime is commited accross the spectrum of humanity, religiuous or non-religious. And morality is dependant on the individual and influenced by circumstances and environment. One of the Irony of some folks on this forum that I noticed is that they seem to pen prosperity on religion. Which is clearly not the case as prosperity is a natural phenomena that crosses the boundaries of religion. There are several rich Atheist as there are several rich individual of other faiths. That is my view.

One more thing, do not view theist folks as Ignorant. Evryone is entitled to their beliefs and faiths just as you are entitled to your beliefs but debates must not be avoided as we must continue to question each other so we can learn and also look within.
.
we can still chat more if you want.

mazaje:

If children were to be presented with the bible,koran and other religious text on their 21st birthdays and told to accept the stories and assertions of the books, majority of the kids will laugh and will NEVER accept what they read. . . . .Religion is culture and culture is a way of life. . . .People have to be indoctrinated at an early age and made to accept that their own version of mythology is right while other versions are wrong. . .Children just accept because they have no reason to believe that their parents are lying to them. . . . .

. . . like I mentioned to you earlier - teenage atheists my friend, teenage atheists

@dare2think

YesI don't think the true essence of religion has been corrupted because religion was a way for developing human societies to give a sense of identity to people and also instill values. Religion enabled humans to attribute natural phenomenons to the actions of various gods. Without the extensive and still growing amount of knowledge and information we have now, mankind was unable to come up with the explanations science has helped us develop. In order to answer these questions,  man created god. That's why Posiedon was believed by the ancient greeks to be in charge of the seas and why the egyptians and the greeks believed the sun was been dragged across the sky behind a chariot.  The need to feel special and unique among other people is the reason that arabic is the language of allah, it's the reason that yahweh called the jews his chosen people, also the reason the yorubas believe that Ile Ife is the birthplace of mankind.
The reason that religions are ethnocentric and gods are antropomorphic is because Man created God in his own image.

You say you have an innate feeling that god exists. When I became an apostate, I also swore that there had to be god or gods somewhere that are in charge of human affairs. I guess what you would call a deist. Then after really studying and reading a little about everything from history, to biology, physics, philosophy, astronomy etc and getting at least basic understanding of the materials,  I came to the conclusion that a god or gods who are concerned with human affairs are non existent. Seriously, read something from people who study and understand the cosmos and get a feeling about the size of the universe and you"ll understand why our little blue rock doesn't amount to a speck of dust. Carl Sagan and Neil Degrasse Tyson are two of them. Tyson is black.
I think you believe in god simply because you believe in the claims of christianity but I'm sure you don't believe in allah, zeus or vishnu simply because you have FAITH that yours is the real deal.
Try to understand why you don't believe in vishnu and you"ll understand why I don't believe in yours.  You reject everybody elses claims but protect yours from the same scrutiny, once you scrutinize yours with some intellectual hionesty, you'll become an atheist. You seem logical,smart and informed so if you're still a christian after you look at it objectively, the conclusion could be that you're scared of the uncertainity of death, you like the warm feeling and hope christianity gives you, or the indoctrination could be permanent. And there's also the possibilty that christianity is the one true religion and that balaam really had a talking donkey.

JeSoul:

^you my friend are full of wisdom. @All, compare this well presented case vs. the rantings that opened the thread.

You poor thing! you were 'abused' a child.

JeSoul:

. . . like I mentioned to you earlier - teenage atheists my friend, teenage atheists

Funny, people who have things to contribute actually say something, all you do is write your little comments about the psot being a rant. What part exactly do you have a problem with, that your holy book is just as valid as the next man's?  I'm sure you disagree with everything I wrote but if you don't have anything to say, go indoctrinate your children and tell them yahweh is always watching them and if they are bad, they will burn in hell forever.  He also needs money, he always needs money.
\You probably have a problem with my tone but that doesn't make what I'm saying less true. You can refute it anytime you want and tell us if you wouldn't be wearing a burqa right now if you were in Kirkuk, Iraq.

@dare2think
I don't think all religious people are ignorant but if a person dismiss information or knowledge that he would otherwise accept if it wasn't because it conflicts with his religious convictions, then the person is being delibrately ignorant. I think you will also agree with me if I say, religious convictions can also make a person ignorant. Examples abound on this website and you make comments about it all the time.

JeSoul:

I just wanted to say . . . that little boy is soooo cute! just adorable. How can the OP be mad at anything[b] after seeing such a handsome young fella[/b]?

Stop admiring boys jor. . . .Say yes to me plssss. . . .Private jet and yatch are waiting for you ohh. . . . . . . .

Martian:

@dare2think

I think you believe in god simply because you believe in the claims of christianity but I'm sure you don't believe in allah, zeus or vishnu simply because you have FAITH that yours is the real deal.[/b]Try to understand why you don't believe in vishnu and you"ll understand why I don't believe in yours.  [b]You reject everybody elses claims but protect yours from the same scrutiny, once you scrutinize yours with some intellectual hionesty, you'll become an atheist. You seem logical,smart and informed so if you're still a christian after you look at it objectively, the conclusion could be that you're scared of the uncertainity of death, you like the warm feeling and hope christianity gives you, or the indoctrination could be permanent.

I dont do any of the bolded.  I never disregard other faiths (Did I disregard you?).  If you read my post on this forum, I challenge bigoted views and obvious hypocrisy. And I subject scrutiny to all faiths including mine.

I feel the fear for the uncertainty of death is natural maybe that't why alot of people are into religion. Truth is, I dont know, I can only speak for myself.

Are you afraid of death?

Martian:

@dare2think
I don't think all religious people are ignorant but if a person dismiss information or knowledge that he would otherwise accept if it wasn't because it conflicts with his religious convictions, then the person is being delibrately ignorant. I think you will also agree with me if I say, religious convictions can also make a person ignorant. Examples abound on this website and you make comments about it all the time.

I agree.

Here is what I once wrote before on another thread here on NL. . . .This is just a brief explanation as to why people believe their religion is true and stick to their religious beliefs even when every other person outside their religion believes otherwise. . . . .As you can see Joagbaje calls other religions false when in reality no such thing exist. . .There is no such thing as a false religion just as there is no such things as a true religion because all religions are equally valid and invalid. . . . . Anyone modern man that is educated, becomes experienced with the falsehoods of politicians, advertising agencies,  untrustworthy friends and colleagues, he/she learns to sort out lies and tall tales most of the time. However, the religion of their culture surrounds them before they've developed this critical thinking ability, people are mostly indoctrinated at very tender ages and they are also kept in line to keep this religious culture by constantly warning them against the consequences of not believing the religion which comes with a very nasty price, most of the time leaving it means being excluded from a significant part of how they interact with the community, particularly related to events like funerals, weddings, and births etc. So they can very easily notice lies, fables and myth, but not the one they are immersed in. Religions is mostly the background noise of their culture or the culture they have borrowed and nothing else. . . . . ,

Martian:

Funny, people who have things to contribute actually say something, all you do is write your little comments about the psot being a rant. What part exactly do you have a problem with, that your holy book is just as valid as the next man's?  I'm sure you disagree with everything I wrote but if you don't have anything to say, go indoctrinate your children and tell them yahweh is always watching them and if they are bad, they will burn in hell forever.  He also needs money, he always needs money.
\You probably have a problem with my tone but that doesn't make what I'm saying less true. You can refute it anytime you want and tell us if you wouldn't be wearing a burqa right now if you were in Kirkuk, Iraq.

The problem with posts/threads like yours is that you are guilty of the same crime you're accusing religious people of. You ride in declaring no mentally stable person can possibly believe in stories like that of Adam and Eve, implying religious people are stoopid to believe what they believe . . . I wonder what kind of responses you were expecting.

  Most reasonable people (religious or otherwise) will readily agree that religious fundamentalism & fanaticism that supressess reason and critical thinking is a big big problem. There is no question about that. But when you open your post with a very handsome small child merely participating in prayer probably beside his father and then proceed to argue that 'religious indoctrination is child abuse' . . . one can only wonder. I quoted Dare2think because he said it all in that post. Great good and great evil have both been done in the name of religion, the logical conclusion is that religion is like a gun - it depends on who is brandishing it and to what purpose in time & history & culture. Religious indoctrination (and that is not even necessarily a bad thing) is not necessarily the problem.

  A more calculated approach would've been for you to open a thread where you lay out your beef (and you have a very strong case by the way from history of religious supression) and invite religious people to explain their persuations on how they can still hold on to their beliefs in the face of so much doubt and arugment to the contrary. This will go much farther in lubricating the debate, where we can all learn from each other & winning people to your side than calling them mentally unstable from the get-go.

   ^hows that for a comment? and btw, Burqas are not that bad-looking.

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Mazaje, come and answer me on your thread jor . . . and leave my small husband in that picture alone.

Well you have a problem with the approach, cool, i didn't feel it was necessary to sound like religion is something sacred that needs to be treated delicately. That approach never works because religious people's arguments will devolve into scripture quotations and abitrary interpretations. My aim was to show how ridiculous religious beliefs really are excluding some moral teachings. Pointing out how ridiculous and fabricated their stories sound will discourage them from bringing up the religious texts. An example was exodus lacking any evidence or comparing the iliad to the quran. Calling a spade a spade, thats all Im doing. Also, I've seen you post apologetics to support your viewpoints and we all know apologetics are nothing but Christian attempts to rationalize their improbable beliefs, starting with the "saint", Thomas Aquinas.

You said religious indoctrination isn't really the problem, but I disagree. Religious indoctrination lets people like your pentecostal pastors exploit people and the people being exploited can't even see it, it lets politicians exploit people with the aid of their priests, it convinces people that flying buildings into planes is alright, it makes people think discrimination is moral, etc.

Burqas are not bad looking, yes, they looked hot on the women walking the streets in Iraq in the middle of the summer. The temperature was at least 115 degrees and only indoctrination can make a woman think  it's alright to cover every inch of her body with black cloth in that weather.

My tone doesn't work for you the same way your approval of teaching mythology as immutable truth doesn't work for me.