Once upon a time there was this certain boy…  He grew up.  He studied law.  Got his doctorate in law and became an attorney.  After reading philosophies of “admirable” religious philosophers, he had a “conversion experience” and started reading his Bible.  He then proceeded to write things about the Bible himself, but alas, since his opinions were quite “unorthodox” for the era, he was banished from his town.  No matter.  He took solace with a friend and writing more and more, became a self-proclaimed theologian and “authoritative” writer.

Well, in due time, he was invited to be the mayor of a certain town in which the “elders” of that town’s church were trying to incorporate change.  He obliged and soon became a pious, but very ruthless dictator.  His word was command.  He preached in a pulpit every “Lord’s day” and would enforce church attendance by threat of imprisonment.  Heretics and blasphemers were either banished or executed, often by being burned at the stake.  In fact, historical records show that under his rule, approximately 58 people were killed and 76 were exiled.

One dear, but unfortunate soul –a friend from his past– dared to criticize his now famous writings/doctrines of the faith, and was imprisoned and treated in the most inhumane way.  Finally, the date was set for the burning, and though this “apostate” begged to be forgiven (pardoned), then begged to at least be beheaded, this “esteemed theologian” would not budge on the inditement –if the “heretical beliefs” were not recanted.  The doomed man would not recant, so he was burned alive in the most cruel way possible, green wood used to prolong the agony.

Oh, have I left out that many in evangelical mainstream churches –yes, these that are on every corner, (and not the ones you call “cults”), are all year –this year of 2009– commencing Happy Birthday celebrations honoring this “remarkable benefit to Christendom”?  In fact, some of our most highly esteemed theologians –past and present– are raving such things as this about him:  “The longer I live the clearer does it appear that his system is the nearest to perfection.”  (Charles Haddon Spurgeon)  And, “I believe he was a great instrument of God; and that he was a wise and pious individual.”  (John Wesley)  And, “It is doubtful whether any other theologian has ever played so significant a part in world history.”  (J. I. Packer)

Wow!  Did you read that last quote?!  Yea, significant alright!  His writings, as well as another “theologian” –one who spouted racism in his writings– were both quoted at those Nazi trials which sought to justify the extermination of a whole race.

So who is this tyrant being honored?  Yes, John Calvin.  And those who follow his teachings, honor him, and defend him are called Calvinists.

Doesn’t Jesus say in John 8:44, “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire.  He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.”  Did we catch that? –”NO truth in him.”  And we also know that 1 John 3:15 says, “and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.”

So why would we want to honor, follow, or defend a person who is “of the devil”?  He or she would not know in the least how to interpret the lovely, pure truth of Scripture for us, for “the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them.”  (1 Cor. 2:14)

Do those who truly have the Spirit of Christ Jesus in them take up violence against those who differ theologically with them?  Never.  Jesus taught that we turn the other cheek –or we leave.  (See Luke 9: 53-56, Matt. 5:39 & 15:14)  Jesus also said in John 18:36, “My kingdom is not of this world.  If it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews.  But now My kingdom is from another place.”

So why do “Christians” continue to honor these contradictory and blasphemous doctrines (and now the 500th year birthday) of a hate-filled, murderous tyrant –who clearly was “of a different spirit” –2 Cor. 11:4?

Unbelievable.  Yet the internet is jammed with honors to this wicked person.

Don’t fall for deception.
Even the ones propagated in your own church.
Sincerely,
Rachel

P.S.  Here are the five core doctrines of the famous (or infamous) tyrant being so honored throughout “Christianity”:

1)  That humans are totally depraved (utterly vile), and even before an infant can sin, he is a sinner.

2)  That God elects (chooses) and predestines everything (every action –even the worst of evils) –down to the smallest robotic detail.  And that to bring Himself glory, He predestines (foreordains, assigns ahead time) some humans to go to Heaven (“the elect”) and some to go to Hell.

3)  That Jesus did not die for everyone, but only for “the elect” –those God decided at random to save.

4)  That “the elect” have no choice but to be saved, and that those chosen for damnation –even if the gift of salvation be dangled before them– can in no way ever be saved.  Why? –Because God deliberately withholds it from them.

5)  That no matter how a Christian lives –his conduct, his character, his thoughts, his motives…– no matter if he murders or Desecrates hundreds, since he is of “the elect”, he is still chosen, reserved for, and thus guaranteed Heaven.

These “glorious” doctrines can all be refuted by numerous Bible verses that say just the opposite, yet this highly esteemed individual is being celebrated in packed-out convention centers (such as the one in Palm Springs, CA this last June 12-15), and is being hailed in Christian conferences all over the world (such as the one going on right now, June 25-28 in Germany, two coming to Geneva, Switzerland July 5-9 & July 6-9, another to France, South Africa, Russia, Quebec, and many more.)

Do “Christians” seem to care that besides the blasphemy, this person exemplified highly non-Christlike behavior and attitudes? Here’s what John Piper, author, pastor, and very popular speaker, writes in the appendix of his newest book:  “So the times were harsh and immoral and barbaric and had a contaminating effect on everyone…  It would be foolhardy to say… that they have nothing to teach us…  There was in the life and ministry of John Calvin a grand God centeredness, Bible-allegiance, and iron consistency.  Under the banner of God’s mercy to miserable sinners, we would do well to listen and learn.”

Hmmm….  Do barbaric times really call for barbaric behavior from those who preach the beautiful Gospel?  Hmmmm…. let’s see…. –can’t think of a time that Jesus or Paul or any of the Holy Spirit-filled apostles –who lived in much earlier, even more barbaric times than Calvin– called for violence.  Especially murder.  Are we really to listen and learn from such “spirits” who exhibit the opposite of the “fruits of the Spirit” –Gal. 5:22?  No, if it walks and talks and kills like a serpent –then it is a serpent– and we are not to listen and learn one thing from a serpent!  We are to flee!  And then from a distance, warn others.

Why, oh why, are “Christian” preachers and lay people defending this  Truly, out of all the false doctrines I have come up against, this one felt, to me, to be the most evil of all.  I spent 8 whole months waving in and out of “horror mode” as I attended a Baptist church that had begun promoting these doctrines.  The pastor, who I was casual friends with, showed a series of videos depicting God as the author of sin, evil, and promoter of damnation.  A discussion ensued after each video.

One evening, at one of these “Bible studies” in which there were about 60-70 in attendance, I spoke up during discussion time and said that we should probably also consider another view, and I proceeded to read a couple of verses.  The verses so strongly shot down the whole point of the videos, that this pastor could say nothing, except visibly angry, immediately close the discussion.  He said that it was clear we would get nowhere tonight, so we’d take this up again next week.  Then he abruptly dismissed us.

The next day, this pastor called me at home and yelled at me like a teen would.  It was so uncalled-for, strange, and uncharacteristic of him, that I just remained completely calm and barely responded.  He did call me a week later and apologized; but I chose not to go back to the church.

This is just one experience.  However, since that time I have realized that Calvinists, in defending their doctrine and their John Calvin, become almost more aggressive, hostile, and illogical than do the Jehovah’s Witnesses.  A person can show them many verses, give logical explanations, point out to them their contradictions… but the Calvinist obviously closes his ears and refuses to accept something that everyone else can see Scripture is clearly stating.

Suffice it to say, that I believe this belief system to be one of the most evil “doctrines of demons” (1 Tim. 4:1) to ever infiltrate Christianity.

http://knowgodsword./sermons/the-evil-theologian-john-calvin/

only d elect will b saved, d rest r cursed.

I do not understand why you are so opposed to Calvinism. John Calvin only took the doctrines of original sin, onimax properties, and salvation to their logical conclusions. That it is "God" not man that decides who ultimately is saved and who is not. Truth is that the bible is so convoluted that you could find verses that both support entirely and reject absolutely the Calvinist propositions.

Idehn:

I do not understand why you are so opposed to Calvinism. John Calvin only took the doctrines of original sin, onimax properties, and salvation to their logical conclusions. That it is "God" not man that decides who ultimately is saved and who is not.

Please instruct him. He has so much zeal but obviously not according to knowledge.

Obalende:

only d elect will b saved, d rest r cursed.

So painful, so offensive, yet so true.

Salvation is a choice. Man has free will to follow or not to follow God. He has free will to obey and disobey God. The choice is mans not God.

Joagbaje:

Salvation is a choice. Man has free will to follow or not to follow God. He has free will to obey and disobey God. The choice is mans not God.

Where is your supporting scripture, Joe?

Idehn:

I do not understand why you are so opposed to Calvinism. John Calvin only took the doctrines of original sin, onimax properties, and salvation to their logical conclusions. That it is "God" not man that decides who ultimately is saved and who is not. Truth is that the bible is so convoluted that you could find verses that both support entirely and reject absolutely the Calvinist propositions.

You are right there are biblical precepts that appear to support and reject Calvinist propositions, but there is good reason to oppose Calvinism. From burning people at the stake to Apartheid South Africa, there's very little good that has come out of "Calvinist mumbo jumbo."

Joagbaje:

Salvation is a choice. Man has free will to follow or not to follow God. He has free will to obey and disobey God. The choice is mans not God.

We seem to agree on this ONE, surprise, surprise.

Bottom line is that if you are born again but draw back from following GOD like Demas, if you die without repentance, you will go to HELL !!!

You cannot be saved in your sins, you are saved out of your sins.

@ frosbel

Read romans 9 vs 9 - 24, the clearest support for Calvin's theology. The doctrine of predestination. It goes to show that every theology has biblical support.

^^


Time is not on my hands to make a lengthy reply, but please read the article below. should answer your question.

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If any passage of the Bible clearly teaches Calvinism, it would be Romans chapter 9. Calvin himself referred to Romans
9:6-24 as "that memorable passage from Paul which alone ought easily to compose all controversy [concerning election] among sober and compliant children of God". I must confess I have at times been disturbed by what seemed to be the implications of Romans chapter 9, and also parts of Romans chapter 11, concerning the love, justice and goodness of God.
Its possible on a quick reading of Romans 9 to pick up the following ideas:

1. God deliberately hardens people in unbelief so that he can pour out his wrath on them.

2. God deals with humanity as clay in a potter's hands, where the clay just gets worked on and has no influence on its own destiny. Some clay (most clay) is worked by God into vessels of destruction, and a tiny remnant is worked on by God to enjoy eternal salvation. In both cases what happens is totally the work of God.

3. Salvation has nothing to do with us, everything to do with God's Sovereign choice.

4. Anyone who would question this is told by God to just Shut Up, because you are vastly inferior and have no right to ask such questions.

To me these ideas are emotionally unsatisfying. That doesn't mean they are not TRUE, however. I'm committed to the Scriptures and what they teach, even when what they teach doesn't make me rejoice. One example of this is - I believe there is a literal, burning eternal hell. I don't wish this to be so, but I believe it, because I believe that this is what the Bible teaches.
Having said all that, I'm very happy now, however, that I have found some keys to unlocking the true meaning of this passage. The interpretive keys to this passage lie in the context of the whole book of Romans, but especially the first few verses of Chapter 9, as well as Romans 3:1-3.

For full arguments on the subject I refer people to Robert Hamilton's essay on the subject referenced below, but for now, I will give a basic outline of what I see as the solution to these issues.

1. In Romans 9-11 Paul's basic concern is with God's plan for the Jewish people and how to make sense of the fact that so many of them rejected the gospel in view of the fact that they are the chosen people.
a. Paul is often talking in a corporate sense here, about groups of people, or nations, rather than individuals. God's election certainly is often talked about in corporate, not individual terms.

b. Paul is addressing a concern raised in Romans 3:1-3 - a possible objection to his gospel presentation that could easily be raised, concerning the apparent failure of God's promise to Abraham, which Paul goes on to show is not actually a failure at all - but God is still working on it.

2. There are different types of GRACE referred to in the Bible, that have different effects or different ends. Paul is not always talking about "Saving Grace" when he speaks of grace, or Salvation when he speaks of Election. There are different kinds of election referred to in the Bible and even in this passage.

3. The "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" mentioned in Romans 9:22 are most likely the UNBELIEVING HARDENED JEWS who have been opposing the ministry of the gospel. God is sovereignly using THESE VERY PEOPLE to cause the gospel to go out to the GENTILES - the non-Jews by stirring up persecution for Jewish believers.

4. This passage (Romans 9: 3-16) refers to a PARTICULAR KIND OF PREVENIENT GRACE given to the people of Israel. This was the grace to have the written oracles of God and more immediate access to spiritual truth. God is under NO OBLIGATION to extend this kind of favor to anyone, nor is He unjust if He extends it to the physical descendents of Jacob and not to others, for example. In THIS RESPECT, God acts unilaterally, without respect to human responses or heart qualities. Again and again in the Old Testamant God informs the Israelites that He did not choose them because they were a great, or a holy people in and of themselves. God said, "For you are a stiff-necked people".

5. Seen this way, there is nothing in this passage which nullifies the idea that SAVING GRACE is given conditionally upon FAITH. In fact, Romans 11:19-23 teaches it explicitly.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

One of the main lessons we can get out of Romans chapter 9 is that there are certain kinds of favor which God bestows SOVEREIGNLY just because He wants to, and can. God picked the Israelites, sometimes He picks certain people's to hear the gospel first, some people receive special favor BEFORE they get saved. God is free to give these favors to some groups and peoples, and not others, and to remain free from the charge of dealing UNJUSTLY with humanity.

As far as salvation goes, God never has limited salvation only to the descendents of Jacob. Salvation has ALWAYS been through faith. The stories of Ruth, Rahab and others in the Bible confirm this.

It is true that some people get a much better opportunity to respond to God positively than others. It can be shown, however, from the Scriptures that in fact ALL do get a sufficient opportunity to respond in faith, so that men are "without excuse" if they disbelieve. (Romans 1:20). But the point is, God is not unrighteous if He gives some better opportunities or greater "prevenient" grace to some rather than others. No one who violates God's law with a morally awakened conscience DESERVES anything of God's mercy. It is up to God if He wants to specifically favor one person or group of people with more opportunities than another person or group of people. We have no right to complain about that.

frosbel:

Once upon a time there was this certain boy… He grew up. He studied law. Got his doctorate in law and became an attorney. After reading philosophies of “admirable” religious philosophers, he had a “conversion experience” and started reading his Bible. He then proceeded to write things about the Bible himself, but alas, since his opinions were quite “unorthodox” for the era… writing more and more, became a self-proclaimed theologian and “authoritative” writer.

Wow, for a moment I thought you were talking of that heresiarch Charles G. Finney. Almost all the above describe him. One difference however was that he probably never read from others but taught as it seemeth good to him.

frosbel:

: “The longer I live the clearer does it appear that his system is the nearest to perfection.” (Charles Haddon Spurgeon) And, “I believe he was a great instrument of God; and that he was a wise and pious individual.” (John Wesley) And, “It is doubtful whether any other theologian has ever played so significant a part in world history.” (J. I. Packer)

Lol. You amuse me. You neither know your roots nor ilk. You don’t know perhaps that John Wesley was an Arminian. He was dubbed, The Prince of the Arminians. And what a tribute from him about the ‘evil theologian’. In this hear him!

This should put this Calvin matter to rest .

frosbel:

This should put this Calvin matter to rest .

Very funny.

You sneeringly bypass my previous post.

^

Please remind me , which one.?

Maybe I forgot

frosbel:

^

Please remind me , which one.?

Maybe I forgot 

Post #12 on this thread.

If  you had even made an attempt, your declaration below, perhaps, would have been just.

frosbel:


This should put this Calvin matter to rest .

To come back six months later to claim ''victory'' seems fraudulent  .