Let's make clear to ourself because i have been noticing that people take prayer and worshipping as been the same and i wld like to tell us here that it's a different thing.

Both muslims and christians do pray even though we both hold different belief.Praying is an act of seeking from God while worshipping denote an act of serving God.praying cant totally represent worshippin because there are different ways by which each is done.God enjoins us to pray to him for whatever request we want in life and hereafter so that he can provide for us. He ordered us to serve him so that our ways wld be different from those of unbelievers.

Serving God cannot be compared to praying because it's different act so pls nairalander dont get confused.

I don't think anyone is getting confused over this. Praying and worshipping are not the same. We've already made the point clear in another thread that prayer is not only when one is seeking for something from God - it goes way beyond that to telling Him everything, including our joys, concerns and having fellowship in His Word.

Worship involves the totality of man, not just some exercise performed at specific times of any day.

what was the point of this thread? to tell us that "worshipping" is equal to knocking my head on the ground 5 times a day?

PTH:

what was the point of this thread? to tell us that "worshipping" is equal to knocking my head on the ground 5 times a day?

Lol. .I no fit laugh. . just go easy on him.

@pilgrim

I don't think anyone is getting confused over this. Praying and worshipping are not the same. We've already made the point clear in another thread that prayer is not only when one is seeking for something from God - it goes way beyond that to telling Him everything, including our joys, concerns and having fellowship in His Word.

Worship involves the totality of man, not just some exercise performed at specific times of any day.

Common, you should be bold enough to hit the nail on the head.




@PTH

what was the point of this thread? to tell us that "worshipping" is equal to knocking my head on the ground 5 times a day?

Good, we do pray five times daily abi. Now please tell me, how do christians do

1. 'God's will'

2. What do you understand by 'God's will'?

3. which of God's will have you been observing' as said by Jesus?



Thanks

babs787:

@PTH

Good, we do pray five times daily abi. Now please tell me, how do christians do

1. 'God's will'

2. What do you understand by 'God's will'?

3. which of God's will have you been observing' as said by Jesus?

hmmm i understand where you are coming from. Your insistence on seeing christianity from an islamic viewpoint of gaining acceptance by works is definitely behind these your questions.

Unlike in islam, christians are not saved by the works of their hands. There are no man made traditions of what we must do to earn eternal life, for;

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Here is all we have to do in a nutshell - Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I know u're probably wondering is that all? Yes dear. I dont have to knock my head on the pavement 5 times, take a pilgrimage to jerusalem, pay zakat, or starve myself for one month only to binge eat at night while pretending to be fasting to qualify as a candidate for heaven.
The choice is yours.

PTH

hmmm i understand where you are coming from. Your insistence on seeing christianity from an islamic viewpoint of gaining acceptance by works is definitely behind these your questions.

No way brother, you have not grabbed where I am coming from.

Unlike in islam, christians are not saved by the works of their hands. There are no man made traditions of what we must do to earn eternal life, for;

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Here is all we have to do in a nutshell - Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I know u're probably wondering is that all? Yes dear. I don't have to knock my head on the pavement 5 times, take a pilgrimage to jerusalem, pay zakat, or starve myself for one month only to binge eat at night while pretending to be fasting to qualify as a candidate for heaven.

Never mind brother, I am quite familiar with Paul's letters.

Since you said that christians are not saved by work, how are they saved? Dont forget the book of james that is contradicting your post here.

In addition, is it compulsory for christians to go to church before they will be saved?

The choice is yours.

Sure brother.

babs787:

Never mind brother, I am quite familiar with Paul's letters.

yeah we all know Paul's letters are a nightmare to muslims. They simply expose the fragility of mohammed's lies and deciet.

babs787:

Since you said that christians are not saved by work, how are they saved? Dont forget the book of james that is contradicting your post here.

Here is what the book of james says - James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
There is no contradiction here at all. First let us consider the issue of faith - Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

When the bible talks about "works", it makes 2 clear distinctions:
1. works/deeds of the law - Merely following the law WITHOUT salvation will take you no where. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

2. works of faith - this is a complement to faith and is only applicable to a believer. In lay man terms, there are attributes expected of a christian; love, kindness, willing to help, generous e.t.c. It is those works that James was talking about and not the works of the law.

James 2: 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Here is what James says in essence, it is not enough to be saved or to have faith, if you dont help ur fellow brother or sister then of what value is that faith you claim to have?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Your works of faith must complement your faith, without faith your works are like filthy rags.

babs787:

In addition, is it compulsory for christians to go to church before they will be saved?

You can be saved anywhere. Zacheus was saved on a tree, Peter recieved salvation on a fishing boat, Paul was saved on the way to Damascus . . . But after you are saved the bible enjoins you to forget not the assembly of the saints (the church), it is a veritable avenue to build ur faith and sharpen others too.

yeah we all know Paul's letters are a nightmare to muslims. They simply expose the fragility of mohammed's lies and deciet.

We all knowthat he is the founder of modern christianity and the originator of confusion. Where did the letters expose what you have been saying or you meant his letters that contradicted Jesus's teachings in order to bring religion to the gentiles?

Are all his letters inspired?

Here is what the book of james says - James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Okay.

There is no contradiction here at all. First let us consider the issue of faith - Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Okay, lets proceed.

When the bible talks about "works", it makes 2 clear distinctions:
1. works/deeds of the law - Merely following the law WITHOUT salvation will take you no where. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Please I need further clarification. Are you still saying that work is useless?

2. works of faith - this is a complement to faith and is only applicable to a believer. In lay man terms, there are attributes expected of a christian; love, kindness, willing to help, generous e.t.c. It is those works that James was talking about and not the works of the law.

If you are saying that work referred to here are: love, kindness etc. Please can you shed more light on John 3 v 16 that says if you believe, you will have eternal life. The verse made us known that if you believe in Jesus, salvation is yours while James is saying that faith (believing in him alone) will not guarantee you salvation but with work.

James 2: 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Sure but what do you have to say to John 3 v 16 and other verses in relation to getting slavation through believing in jesus alone, which I will giving you as we proceed.

Here is what James says in essence, it is not enough to be saved or to have faith, if you don't help your fellow brother or sister then of what value is that faith you claim to have?

Pastor. Is that your own translation of that verse? Please I have always told you to be very careful when dealing with babs cos you may contradict yourself as we move on.

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Did you see that?

Your works of faith must complement your faith, without faith your works are like filthy rags.

So in a nutshell, faith and work must go together but not as in john 3 v 16 and 1st john too.

You can be saved anywhere. Zacheus was saved on a tree, Peter recieved salvation on a fishing boat, Paul was saved on the way to Damascus . . . But after you are saved the bible enjoins you to forget not the assembly of the saints (the church), it is a veritable avenue to build your faith and sharpen others too.

I am not referring to earthly salvation but heavenly one. Can a christian believer gain paradise without going to church. Can one believe claim to be a christian believer without having anything to do with church. Can one that believes in jesus be doing his praising and worshipping at home without having anything to do with the church?


Thanks

babs787:

We all knowthat he is the founder of modern christianity and the originator of confusion. Where did the letters expose what you have been saying or you meant his letters that contradicted Jesus's teachings in order to bring religion to the gentiles?

Are all his letters inspired?

nah, that is what muslims are desperate for everyone to believe because his very letters are a threat to the credibility of islam and all it purports to stand for.

babs787:

Please I need further clarification. Are you still saying that work is useless?

ur penchant for mischief is legendary. I defined TWO (2) distinct forms of the biblical definition of the term "works", you clung to the first definition only to come to the conclusion that i claimed that works is useless? Did you even read down to number 2?

babs787:

If you are saying that work referred to here are: love, kindness etc. Please can you shed more light on John 3 v 16 that says if you believe, you will have eternal life. The verse made us known that if you believe in Jesus, salvation is yours while James is saying that faith (believing in him alone) will not guarantee you salvation but with work.

It is very easy except to a blind muslim. See it this way, to be a student you must go to class, wear uniforms and write term exams. But you must pass an entrance exam before you can be matriculated as a student at all. You cant wear a uniform and claim to be a student when you have not written ur entrance exam neither can you go home and sleep, claiming to be a graduate simply because you passed the entrance exam.

It is the same thing in the spiritual, salvation is ur entrance exam. What qualifies you to be a student is not only to pass the exam but that you indeed attend classes and pass your exams to be promoted to the next class. Works of faith is what defines you as a christian just like exams define u as a student.
John 3:16 talks of the first thing a prospective student has to do to be admitted into school - salvation.
James 2 talks of those attributes that qualify a student to identify himself as a student of the school to which he has been admitted.

babs787:

Sure but what do you have to say to John 3 v 16 and other verses in relation to getting slavation through believing in jesus alone, which I will giving you as we proceed.

pls read above.

babs787:

Pastor. Is that your own translation of that verse? Please I have always told you to be very careful when dealing with babs because you may contradict yourself as we move on.

what is ur own translation?

babs787:

So in a nutshell, faith and work must go together but not as in john 3 v 16 and 1st john too.

explained above.

babs787:

I am not referring to earthly salvation but heavenly one. Can a christian believer gain paradise without going to church. Can one believe claim to be a christian believer without having anything to do with church. Can one that believes in jesus be doing his praising and worshipping at home without having anything to do with the church?

there where no churches before the day of pentecost, surely those that died believing in Christ Jesus went straight to heaven. If a christian has no choice but to work in a "tolerant and peaceful" country like Saudi Arabia where bibles are banned and churches are a felony punnishable by death then God certainly understands and such an one will still go to heaven.
The bible does not in any way claim that merely going to church is ur passport to heaven, the way to heaven is clear - salvation!

The bible only advises that where there are certainly opportunities to attend church then it is for ur own spiritual benefit that you go there.

nah, that is what muslims are desperate for everyone to believe because his very letters are a threat to the credibility of islam and all it purports to stand for.

Brother dont beat about the bush, are all his letters inspired and I will tell you more about who Paul is?

your penchant for mischief is legendary. I defined TWO (2) distinct forms of the biblical definition of the term "works", you clung to the first definition only to come to the conclusion that i claimed that works is useless? Did you even read down to number 2?

I responded to the two forms unless you are not reading with your glasses. Go have a look at my response again.



It is very easy except to a blind muslim. See it this way, to be a student you must go to class, wear uniforms and write term exams. But you must pass an entrance exam before you can be matriculated as a student at all. You can't wear a uniform and claim to be a student when you have not written your entrance exam neither can you go home and sleep, claiming to be a graduate simply because you passed the entrance exam.

It is the same thing in the spiritual, salvation is your entrance exam. What qualifies you to be a student is not only to pass the exam but that you indeed attend classes and pass your exams to be promoted to the next class. Works of faith is what defines you as a christian just like exams define u as a student.
John 3:16 talks of the first thing a prospective student has to do to be admitted into school - salvation.

No where we have it that its the first thing unless you want to give it your own meaning. The verse says 'for GOD so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

So where is your own meaning coming from?

James 2 talks of those attributes that qualify a student to identify himself as a student of the school to which he has been admitted.

Where was it mentioned. He told you that faith without work is useless as against john 3 v 16 and other verses that lay emphasis on believing alone as a means of getting salvation. James is telling you that you must not only believe with your mouth (john 3 v 16) but must work too to gain paradie.

please read above.

I have supplied you answer above too.

what is your own translation?

I will be bringing out where you might have flawed as we proceed. You are adding yours to it, the bible never gave all those stories of yours.

explained above.

Your explanation is flawed.

there where no churches before the day of pentecost, surely those that died believing in Christ Jesus went straight to heaven. If a christian has no choice but to work in a "tolerant and peaceful" country like Saudi Arabia where bibles are banned and churches are a felony punnishable by death then God certainly understands and such an one will still go to heaven.
The bible does not in any way claim that merely going to church is your passport to heaven, the way to heaven is clear - salvation!

Brother stop going in the opposite direction. Forget the issue of tolerant or intolerant society. Can a christian believer who lives in a very conducive, tolerant environment, believes in the death, resurrection of jesus but never goes to church go to Heaven? Not because he doesnt have time bnut never believes in going to church.

The bible only advises that where there are certainly opportunities to attend church then it is for your own spiritual benefit that you go there.

Okay are you saying that it is not compulsory to be attending church?

Thanks

babs787:

Brother don't beat about the bush, are all his letters inspired and I will tell you more about who Paul is?

ur game of answer me i ask you isnt going to work here. if you have "facts and evidence" show us or else keep quiet!

babs787:

No where we have it that its the first thing unless you want to give it your own meaning. The verse says 'for GOD so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

dont be a such an ignorant oaf! Salvation comes first before you talk of works of faith. Read James 2 very well, he was talking to believers who were already saved and not sinners. Believing on Jesus is the way to heaven but you cannot claim to be the son of a tiger and yet eat grass like a sheep. Once you are born again you are bound to exhibit traits of your new found status in Christ. That is what James had in mind when he talked about works. Not the self righteous worthless sacrifices that muslims make every year that cannot cleanse them from sin.

babs787:

Where was it mentioned. He told you that faith without work is useless as against john 3 v 16 and other verses that lay emphasis on believing alone as a means of getting salvation. James is telling you that you must not only believe with your mouth (john 3 v 16) but must work too to gain paradie.

ur problem is you have muddled up the "work" that James is refering to. He is not refering to fruitless works of trying to attain to righteousness by your own means.

babs787:

I will be bringing out where you might have flawed as we proceed. You are adding yours to it, the bible never gave all those stories of yours.

where is your own explanation from ur quran, or has it nothing to say on this subject as pertaining to muslims too?

babs787:

Your explanation is flawed.

then lets have urs sir.

babs787:

Brother stop going in the opposite direction. Forget the issue of tolerant or intolerant society. Can a christian believer who lives in a very conducive, tolerant environment, believes in the death, resurrection of jesus but never goes to church go to Heaven? Not because he doesnt have time bnut never believes in going to church.

Yes. it depends on the circumstances. It is rare to see a genuine born again christian who prefers not to go to church. Notice i mention GENUINE not just every person who claims to be a christian. The bible says by their fruits ye shall know them.
But if you cant have fellowship due to understandable circumstances then have fellowship with ur family at home. many of us did such during the biting fuel scarcity periods.

Paul and the other apostles had fellowship with the brethren and broke bread in their homes too.

babs787:

Okay are you saying that it is not compulsory to be attending church?

u must have a problem with comprehension. how many times will u recieve an answer for this very question?

@babs787,

babs787:

Common, you should be bold enough to hit the nail on the head.

Looks like you have a problem reading. It's not new - Muslims in general do.

babs787:

Good, we do pray five times daily abi. Now please tell me, how do christians do

1. 'God's will'

Yes, we pray according to God's will. Do Muslims pray contrary to His will? What is the new game you intend to play by that?

babs787:

2. What do you understand by 'God's will'?

What seems to be your nightmare about that?

babs787:

3. which of God's will have you been observing' as said by Jesus?

Which one has Muslims been observing as taught by Jesus?

babs787:

I am not referring to earthly salvation but heavenly one.

What do Muslims know about 'heavenly salvation'?

babs787:

Can a christian believer gain paradise without going to church. Can one believe claim to be a christian believer without having anything to do with church. Can one that believes in jesus be doing his praising and worshipping at home without having anything to do with the church?

Heb. 10:25. You know all the answers already, but you just like wahala. It's obvious that baseless arguments have become second nature to you. Since you can't work a stronger juju from those who sent you, keep playing games - we're used to it.



And where is doyenn who started the thread and as usual has desserted it as the typical Muslim hide-and-seek?