AntiChristian:
My views are drawn from my scripture.
Bring your scripture here with the Hebrew/Greek equivalent of Soul and spirit!

Please go ahead. I want to get an idea of your understanding of what is written and how you arrived at the soul being the same as spirit in man.

Kobojunkie:
1. Where did man receive this Spirit you speak of from and where is this stated in scripture?

Gen 2:7:
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."


Except if you think the breath of God is air

Kobojunkie:

2. What you said does not make sense given that scripture does not corroborate your claim. We have already been through this. An image isn't necessarily an exact copy but cab offer a copy with a resemblance. When you take an image of your person with your camera or you make an image of yourself using clay or wood or whatever material you come across. That image of you does not necessarily carry with it the exact same attributes, and makeup of its maker that is why we refer to it as an image. That word is of human language not God language.

Image means a form of or likeness. Just as a scientist may make a robot to look like himself.

Kobojunkie:

3. Your condemning, God and Jesus Christ liars and still attempting to use them to explain your claims is what doesn't make sense here. Jesus Christ, the one who explained to you what it means to be born-again never said anything about becoming alive spiritually. Instead, He said you never had a spirit of your own until that point. God said the same thing when He said in Ezekiel 36 that He would install a new spirit inside of you indicating the newness of the happening.

If a new spirit will be put In man, what happened to his old spirit?

If there wasn't a spirit before there cannot be a NEW or DIFFERENT spirit!

Ezek 36:26:
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Kobojunkie:

4. If you always carried a disconnected spirit as you claim then what you claim is that you already had a spirit of your own since birth, making that which is written in Genesis 2 vs 7, and declared by God in Ezekiel 36 a lie, also making Jesus Christ's statement in John 3 vs 5 -8, lies .

You are the one who think God a liar!

Ps 51:10:
"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me."

Why would David ask for a renewed Spirit?

Kobojunkie:

5. All Peter wrote was that Jesus Christ preached to these "Spirits" from as far back as the time of Noah. Have you ever asked yourself why the time of Noah? Why not the time of Abraham or Isaac?

Have you also asked yourself what it must have been that Peter claims Jesus Christ preached to those Spirits? Surely, it couldn't have been the same exact repentance Law which Jesus Christ explained was only available to us while we live - I mean unless these beings He preached to from long ago never tasted death - which is highly doubtful since JesusChrist preached to them in the grave - , then surely they could not become born-again, and certainly cannot experience salvation since Salvation is for the living, not the dead.

Hell in this case refers to the grave - the place of death.

You don't get the point!

It is not about the message that Jesus preached. It is about the fact one can only preach to people who are Conscious!
How come these people were conscious? Their bodies have rotten with time isn't it?

TenQ:
1. Because your theory doesn't align with scripture.

2. Exactly!
Spirits have their FORM or distinct appearance. The throne of God Cannot thus be empty as the Angels and the 24 Elders sees the one who is NOT physical.

In other words, if God is a Spirit, He has a distinct form in the Spirit realm. A spirit is thus NOT just a form of ENERGY that animates but a FORM of identity!

1. Your statement, "Gods spirit is the life giving force to His being!" , makes no sense to me meaning I have no idea where you get that from.

2. Where in the world are you going with these claims of yours abeg?

TenQ:
1. Gen 2:7:
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Except if you think the breath of God is air

2. Image means a form of or likeness. Just as a scientist may make a robot to look like himself.

3. If a new spirit will be put In man, what happened to his old spirit? If there wasn't a spirit before there cannot be a NEW or DIFFERENT spirit!
Ezek 36:26:
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

4. You are the one who think God a liar! Ps 51:10:
"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Why would David ask for a renewed Spirit?

5. You don't get the point!

It is not about the message that Jesus preached. It is about the fact one can only preach to people who are Conscious!
How come these people were conscious? Their bodies have rotten with time isn't it?

1. Are we going around in circles of what? So Man, formerly a non-living soul, become a living soul after God's breath was introduced into man. So man existed as a dead soul before God's breath was added to animate Him, right?

2. OK

3. Well, according to scripture, the breath of God- the spirit God used to animate man's soul after He created man- returns to God when man dies.

4.

Well, God did install a Spirit on those who were anointed by HIm, did He not? And David, and even Saul was one of them, right?

5. I believe knowing what it was it was that Jesus Christ supposedly preached to those spirits is of great importance to understanding what really happened. Else, what you insinuate is that Jesus Christ supposedly preached that which violates the Law which He gave to His followers by that act.

According to Jesus Christ, in order to be saved by His Gospel, one must be alive - undead - and also must remain obedient until death in order to be saved by the Gospel. A dead spirit cannot then be saved by His Gospel since it has previously experienced Death, the end which Jesus Christ came to save us all from. So, it is important to know what was preached.

Also of equal importance is why the preaching was to the Spirits of the time of Noah, this was the time of the flood. Noah lived on long after the flood, then there was Abraham, Isaac ... so, why did Jesus Christ go down to the grave to preach the message only to the Spirits there were of the time of Noah's flood?

Kobojunkie:
1. Are we going around in circles of what? So Man, formerly a non-living soul, become a living soul after God's breath was introduced into man. So man existed as a dead soul before God's breath was added to animate Him, right?

2. OK

3. Well, according to scripture, the breath of God- the spirit God used to animate man's soul after He created man- returns to God when man dies.

4.

Well, God did install a Spirit on those who were anointed by HIm, did He not? And David, and even Saul was one of them, right?

5. I believe knowing what it was it was that Jesus Christ supposedly preached to those spirits is of great importance to understanding what really happened. Else, what you insinuate is that Jesus Christ supposedly preached that which violates the Law which He gave to His followers by that act.

According to Jesus Christ, in order to be saved by His Gospel, one must be alive - undead - and also must remain obedient until death in order to be saved by the Gospel. A dead spirit cannot then be saved by His Gospel since it has previously experienced Death, the end which Jesus Christ came to save us all from. So, it is important to know what was preached.

Also of equal importance is why the preaching was to the Spirits of the time of Noah, this was the time of the flood. Noah lived on long after the flood, then there was Abraham, Isaac ... so, why did Jesus Christ go down to the grave to preach the message only to the Spirits there were of the time of Noah's flood?

I will respond only to this with a question:
You said:

5. I believe knowing what it was it was that Jesus Christ supposedly preached to those spirits is of great importance to understanding what really happened. Else, what you insinuate is that Jesus Christ supposedly preached that which violates the Law which He gave to His followers by that act. undecided

Did Jesus PREACH or NOT?
If He didn't, what happened?
If He did, how come the dead are conscious?

TenQ:

I will respond only to this with a question:
You said:
Did Jesus PREACH or NOT?
If He didn't, what happened?
If He did, how come the dead are conscious?

According to Peter, Jesus Christ preached to the spirits. I don't know the details of what was preached but it is of great importance as far as understanding what Jesus Christ in fact did down there in the grave.

As for your question on how come the dead are conscious, as we are told even in the Old Testament, those who have a spirit of their own sleep in their graves. e.g. Samuel in the Old Testament who was awakened by Saul and the witch of Endor.

Kobojunkie:
According to Peter, Jesus Christ preached to the spirits. I don't know the details of what was preached but it is of great importance as far as understanding what Jesus Christ in fact did down there in the grave.

As for your question on how come the dead are conscious, as we are told even in the Old Testament, those who have a spirit of their own sleep in their graves. e.g. Samuel in the Old Testament who was awakened by Saul and the witch of Endor.

True:
Jesus preached to the spirit who were once disobedient at the time of Noah
Implication:
1. The dead may not be in an unconscious state.
2. If the dead are without their bodies, how could they still be Conscious?


Secondly,
I will start from where you concluded with Samuel and the Witch at Endor.

1. It is obvious it wasn't a vision because the witch exclaimed when she saw Samuel himself
1Sam 28:12:
"And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? for you are Saul."

Samuel spoke as himself. It wasn't another form or personality other than Samuel

1Sam 28:15:
"And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disquieted me, to bring me up? ......"

2. Samuel was without a physical Body at this point: so, how could he be conscious and seemingly alive?

3. The fact that Samuel was at rest does not imply an unconscious state.
1Sam 28:15:
"Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you troubled my rest by bringing me up?" ...

Summary:
When a man is ALIVE on earth, he has a Body, Soul and Spirit.

When a man becomes DEAD on earth, his body goes to the earth BUT his Soul and Spirit goes up to God (if he a righteous person) also called Abraham's blossom
OR
He goes to the other place separated from Abraham's blossom by a gulf.

This above was what Jesus taught.

Luk 16:26:
"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there."



If the dead are unconscious, this story of Christ is meaningless!

TenQ:
1. Implication: 1. The dead may not be in an unconscious state. 2. If the dead are without their bodies, how could they still be Conscious?


Secondly,
I will start from where you concluded with Samuel and the Witch at Endor.
a. It is obvious it wasn't a vision because the witch exclaimed when she saw Samuel himself
1Sam 28:12:
"And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? for you are Saul."
Samuel spoke as himself. It wasn't another form or personality other than Samuel
1Sam 28:15:
"And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disquieted me, to bring me up? ......"
b. Samuel was without a physical Body at this point: so, how could he be conscious and seemingly alive?
c. The fact that Samuel was at rest does not imply an unconscious state.
1Sam 28:15:
"Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you troubled my rest by bringing me up?" ...

Summary:
When a man is ALIVE on earth, he has a Body, Soul and Spirit.

When a man becomes DEAD on earth, his body goes to the earth BUT his Soul and Spirit goes up to God (if he a righteous person) also called Abraham's blossom
ORHe goes to the other place separated from Abraham's blossom by a gulf.

This above was what Jesus taught.

Luk 16:26:
"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there."



If the dead are unconscious, this story of Christ is meaningless!

1. Also realize that the verse you quoted from did not suggest this of all those who are dead but instead said these things in particular to the dead spirits from the time of Noah. This means those implications of yours are more or less hasty generalizations made about the dead.

2. The story [/b]of Lazarus and the Rich man is a [b]parable , used to make clear a message. Note that the message does not need to be in direct reference to any of the details elaborated in the story, especially since many of the parables told by Jesus Christ were used as a form of misdirection for those who do not seek His Truth to begin with. Jesus Christ used the analogy in the story to explain that there will be none sent back from the grave to warn the living from the Kingdom of God - Heaven or Hell.

In God's Old Covenant, God explained that those who died in righteousness receive Eternal life - and so sleep in the grave - whereas the unrighteous perish in their graves - Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20 - from dust you were made and to dust you shall return - Genesis 3 vs 19..

Kobojunkie:
1. Also realize that the verse you quoted from did not suggest this of all those who are dead but instead said these things in particular to the dead spirits from the time of Noah. This means those implications of yours are more or less hasty generalizations made about the dead.

2. The story [/b]of Lazarus and the Rich man is a [b]parable , used to make clear a message. Note that the message does not need to be in direct reference to any of the details elaborated in the story, especially since many of the parables told by Jesus Christ were used as a form of misdirection for those who do not seek His Truth to begin with. Jesus Christ used the analogy in the story to explain that there will be none sent back from the grave to warn the living from the Kingdom of God - Heaven or Hell.

In God's Old Covenant, God explained that those who died in righteousness receive Eternal life - and so sleep in the grave - whereas the unrighteous perish in their graves - Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20 - from dust you were made and to dust you shall return - Genesis 3 vs 19..

Except you mean to say that the death that killed the people at the time of Noah is different from the present kind of death. If they were conscious enough to be spoken to by Christ, everyone at death will be conscious too.

Let's for once say Christ was only telling a parable.
1. It was the only parable where Christ mentioned the names of persons. At least we know of Lazarus and Moses!
2. Jesus said:
John 14:2:
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
There are many things the Old Testament prophets did not know: Jesus came to make it bare.

How can you explain the purpose of the story/parable of Lazarus and the rich man without speaking about reward for righteousness and punishment for ungodliness?

3. How come the dead Samuel was able to speak to Saul?
At least we know he did not resurrect from the dead!

TenQ:
1. Except you mean to say that the death that killed the people at the time of Noah is different from the present kind of death. If they were conscious enough to be spoken to by Christ, everyone at death will be conscious too.

2. Let's for once say Christ was only telling a parable.
1. It was the only parable where Christ mentioned the names of persons. At least we know of Lazarus and Moses!
2. Jesus said:
John 14:2:
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
There are many things the Old Testament prophets did not know: Jesus came to make it bare.

How can you explain the purpose of the story/parable of Lazarus and the rich man without speaking about reward for righteousness and punishment for ungodliness?

3. How come the dead Samuel was able to speak to Saul?
At least we know he did not resurrect from the dead!

1. Wrong! I mean that at the time of Noah, one of the reasons God killed off the population of the world at the time had to do with the Sons of God, spirit beings, and mating with humans. This can more than explain the identity of the spirits Jesus Christ supposedly preached to in the grave.

But we don't know who Lazarus was and we don't know who the rich man was either. The reference to Abraham we understand since He is the ancestor of the Jews, and Moses, the one who brought God's Law to the people of Israel. The lesson Jesus Christ meant for His followers to take is contained in verse Luke 19 vs 30 -31.

3. His spirit was raised from sleep by the witch of endor?

Kobojunkie:
1. Wrong! I mean that at the time of Noah, one of the reasons God killed off the population of the world at the time had to do with the Sons of God, spirit beings, and mating with humans. This can more than explain the identity of the spirits Jesus Christ supposedly preached to in the grave.

The scripture is very clear as per the nature of these "spirits"!
1Pet 3:19-20:
"By which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
I am sure you know that the Ark of Noah was not prepared for the Nephilims nor spirits but for humans who were ALL destroyed apart from the eight.

Does it even make sense to you that Jesus went to PREACH to "sons of God" who had sex with daughters of men!? Preach what!?

Kobojunkie:

But we don't know who Lazarus was and we don't know who the rich man was either. The reference to Abraham we understand since He is the ancestor of the Jews, and Moses, the one who brought God's Law to the people of Israel. The lesson Jesus Christ meant for His followers to take is contained in verse Luke 19 vs 30 -31.

You don't have to know Lazarus, Jesus knew him. It is the only story in the whole bible where Jesus mentioned specific names of people: no other parable is like that in this respect.

Please clearly state the lesson Jesus want us to learn by teaching about The Fire of Hell ?

Kobojunkie:

3. His spirit was raised from sleep by the witch of endor?

Where was it stated that Samuel was sleeping?
Rest and Sleep are not synonymous!

Heb 3:18-19; 4:1:
"And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."

I guess you also mean that the word rest in Heb3:, 4 mean unconscious state!

TenQ:
1. The scripture is very clear as per the nature of these "spirits"!
Does it even make sense to you that Jesus went to PREACH to "sons of God" who had sex with daughters of men!? Preach what!?

2. You don't have to know Lazarus, Jesus knew him. It is the only story in the whole bible where Jesus mentioned specific names of people: no other parable is like that in this respect. Please clearly state the lesson Jesus want us to learn by teaching about The Fire of Hell ?

3. Where was it stated that Samuel was sleeping? Rest and Sleep are not synonymous!
Heb 3:18-19; 4:1:
"And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."

I guess you also mean that the word rest in Heb3:, 4 mean unconscious state!

1. Actually, what relates to the spirit in that verse is the fact they are from the time of Noah and the flood and the fact they were of disobedience.

Well, the spirits are said to have mated with humans and had offspring from them - Spirit-human offsprings at that. Anywho, this is leading nowhere abeg!

2. It is a story nonetheless! There was no fire of Hell promised as punishment for the Old Covenant Jews. And given that Jesus Christ was not a Teacher of God's Old Law of Moses but instead a New Covenant Teacher, the lesson from even that parable was meant for His New Covenant followers.

3. Sleep is sleep! Those who have eternal life sleep in their graves - this was the case in the Old Testament and in the New Covenant.

As for the meaning of the word rest as used in Hebrew 3, I made no reference to that at all.

Kobojunkie:
1. Actually, what relates to the spirit in that verse is the fact they are from the time of Noah and the flood and the fact they were of disobedience.

Well, the spirits are said to have mated with humans and had offspring from them - Spirit-human offsprings at that. Anywho, this is leading nowhere abeg!

2. It is a story nonetheless! There was no fire of Hell promised as punishment for the Old Covenant Jews. And given that Jesus Christ was not a Teacher of God's Old Law of Moses but instead a New Covenant Teacher, the lesson from even that parable was meant for His New Covenant followers.

3. Sleep is sleep! Those who have eternal life sleep in their graves - this was the case in the Old Testament and in the New Covenant.

As for the meaning of the word rest as used in Hebrew 3, I made no reference to that at all.

I hear you!

Hello guys,

Some interesting thread we have going here on the ever-controversial topic of the spirit, soul and body. I hope I can further shed some light on why the three entities are different, particularly spirit and soul.

Every living being is a living soul. The soul is the actual person. But the soul is not visible and therefore needs the body to house it in order to be able to be or do things on earth. The spirit is the life-giving force that gives the body life. Without the spirit, the body is inanimate. It is the spirit [the breath of God] that animates the body. The life-giving spirit is different from the Holy Spirit though.

As for death, only the body can die. Upon death, the soul [the real person] goes to paradise or hades awaiting Judgment day, the spirit goes back to God to join the power bank where it emanates from, while the body decomposes.

I hope this sheds some more light to this issue?

Cheers.