wordtalk:

Some teach tithing as obligatory or 'required'; many others do not teach it as such even though they encourage tithing in their churches. At least, I know of one church (among several others) - the Assemblies of God Church: they use terms such as 'pay tithes' as well as 'give tithes', but they stress that tithing is not a legalistic obligation.

So, who's right, in your opinion - those who say 'pay' tithes and those who say 'give' tithes? And in the universe of tithe preaching, there's no contest between the quantum of preaching on tithes as required and tithes as voluntary giving. Even preachers that are big on grace abandon that when it comes to tithing. You can be a prostitute or fraudster and prosper because God is a merciful God who has forgiven you your sins. But you can't prosper even if you live a pure life, pray a lot, clean the church premises so long as you do not pay your tihes. God's grace ends at that point. There must be something about this tithe. If only the man with the deepest revelation, Apostle Paul, had taken time to give a detailed exposition on the subject.

Of course, she should come and collect it.

nlMediator:

So, who's right, in your opinion - those who say 'pay' tithes and those who say 'give' tithes? And in the universe of tithe preaching, there's no contest between the quantum of preaching on tithes as required and tithes as voluntary giving.

This is not rocket science, lol.

Instead of arguing who's right or wrong, one should look at the context of language use. Some people tend to say 'pay tithe(s)' from traditional use of language; others understand it simply as an act of giving ('give tithes'). Both expressions are valid, although neither use of term ('pay' or 'give') should translate into a form of legalism.

Take Abraham's experience, for instance: Genesis 14:20 says that Abraham 'gave' tithes to Melchizedek; and in Hebrews 7 it uses 'gave' (vv. 2 & 4); yet, referring to Levi in Abraham, it uses the word 'pay' (Heb. 7:9). In all this, we know that Abraham's act was voluntary rather than obligatory.

Even preachers that are big on grace abandon that when it comes to tithing. You can be a LovePeddler or fraudster and prosper because God is a merciful God who has forgiven you your sins. But you can't prosper even if you live a pure life, pray a lot, clean the church premises so long as you do not pay your tihes. God's grace ends at that point. There must be something about this tithe. If only the man with the deepest revelation, Apostle Paul, had taken time to give a detailed exposition on the subject.

It is not every thing that the apostles tried to explain in detail, for that would tend to our being spoon-fed. Yet, I know that not every pastor who encourages tithing would tend to forget 'grace'. It does not help to make sweeping generalizations about people.

It is giving and not paying. Give your whatsoever you call it, voluntarily to the church. Being a graceful christian, you must be very much aware of the needs of your Pastores . And out of your abundance, you give ( one tenth ), to the church. It is a liberal duty to help out to the needs of the church.

The word PAY, comes into it, when you are selfish and arrogant. A matured soul cares for his people.

^^ Indeed, there are people who would rather 'give' tithes; but that is not to forget that others think about it as 'paying tithes'. Whatever the case, the more important point is that we give from willing hearts.

wordtalk:

This is not rocket science, lol.

Instead of arguing who's right or wrong, one should look at the context of language use. Some people tend to say 'pay tithe(s)' from traditional use of language; others understand it simply as an act of giving ('give tithes'). Both expressions are valid, although neither use of term ('pay' or 'give') should translate into a form of legalism.

Take Abraham's experience, for instance: Genesis 14:20 says that Abraham 'gave' tithes to Melchizedek; and in Hebrews 7 it uses 'gave' (vv. 2 & 4); yet, referring to Levi in Abraham, it uses the word 'pay' (Heb. 7:9). In all this, we know that Abraham's act was voluntary rather than obligatory.

It is not every thing that the apostles tried to explain in detail, for that would tend to our being spoon-fed. Yet, I know that not every pastor who encourages tithing would tend to forget 'grace'. It does not help to make sweeping generalizations about people.

It goes beyond language use. There are people here that believe that a tenth of your income belongs to God. That being the case, when you put the money in an envelope, you're not giving to God, you're paying what you owe. I understand that both words can be used - as in Hebrews - to refer to voluntary giving. But that's not the case I'm referring to here. So, if you don't mind, do you think it's a payment as they use the term and why (not)?

nlMediator:

It goes beyond language use. There are people here that believe that a tenth of your income belongs to God. That being the case, when you put the money in an envelope, you're not giving to God, you're paying what you owe. I understand that both words can be used - as in Hebrews - to refer to voluntary giving. But that's not the case I'm referring to here.

I'm quite aware of the use of either terms ('give' or 'pay') in relation to tithes, even where you're referring to something other than the language or expression - as I've observed in commenting to k.c1.

So, if you don't mind, do you think it's a payment as they use the term and why (not)?

I may not speak on everyone's behalf; but this is what I hold: it's okay to 'give' tithes rather than assume it should be 'paid' as a legal debt. Although I already commented on this, perhaps i should repost that article with the link so you understand what I'm trying to say:

I Don’t Pay Tithes

For some of you who have been following this blog, the title of this post may come as a surprise, if not rather confusing. My apologies, I don’t mean to shock, dismay or confuse you – perhaps you’ll understand better after reading this post.

The Tithe Is Not a Payment

There are many things in life that we pay for on the basis of a law. Basically, we understand payment as settling a debt we owe for services received or for purchases made – and to refuse to settle a debt on such legal basis would invite punitive measures of some kind.

In that context, we therefore pay our taxes (Rom. 13:6-7); pay the wages of salaried workers (James 5:4); pay the required fees or tuition for education, as well seek to settle any debts, all of this for which we are admonished to ‘owe no man any thing‘ (Rom. 13:.

However, expressing my giving through tithing is an act of worship and a demonstration of my stewardship to God. It is the cheerful and voluntary bestowing of my resources for specific purposes on a spiritual basis. In this context, it is an entirely different matter from the payment of a legal debt.

Tithes are Not Taxes

For some strange reason, some sources interpret the Biblical tithes as taxes. For instance, John MacArthur argues that ‘Tithing was always taxation so that the programs of the government could run‘ – and he is not alone in that persuasion.

However, while the Levitical tithing system may have looked like a taxation by a surficial reading of the texts, it is not so regarded in Scripture. In Numbers 18:24, God clearly identifies Israel’s tithes for what it was to Him -

‘But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.’

The ‘heave offering’ in that verse is ‘terumah‘ in Hebrew, and bears a different meaning apart from the idea of taxation. In both the Easton Bible Dictionary and Brown-Driver Briggs’ Hebrew Definition, the term ‘terumah’ is defined as a gift, not a tax.

What’s the Difference?

While some arguments conclude that the tithes were taxes by simply drawing similarities in them, the former is never prescribed in Scripture as the latter. There are other terms describing the idea of taxes in the Old Testament including tolls, levies, custom, tributes, exactions, taxation, etc. (1 Kings 4:6; 9:15; 2 Kings 23:33 & 35; 2 Chron. 8:10; Ezra 4:13 & 20; Neh. 10:31) – and these are distinct from tithes.

However, the tithes in Scripture (Abraham, Jacob, and the Levitical) are always connected with priesthood and worship rather than with political or civil government taxations. The Jews under the old covenant paid some form of taxes to kings and rulers, rather than to priests (1 Kings 12:4; Esth. 10:1); while their tithes went to the priesthood for purposes connected with worship (Deut. 14:22-23; 2 Chron. 31:6).

Obligation to Pay Taxes

In the NT, Christians are enjoined to pay their taxes to their respective political governments (Rom. 13:5-. These are not tithes; and as the passage itself makes clear, the term there is ‘to pay’ (Gk. τελέω – teleō) in the sense of a legal obligation. This is the same sense as appears in Matthew 17:24-25 where the question is about paying tribute, custom or taxes.

Why I Give Tithes

My giving is not limited to alms but extends to tithing – the voluntary giving of a tenth of my income, set apart as my priestly act of worship to God. In principle, the NT nowhere condemns tithing; nor does it present the subject as a taxation.

This is why I do not ‘pay’, but rather voluntarily give tithes. Even though my giving is partly expressed in the form of tithing, it is not a legal debt I owe to God – rather, it is a willing and cheerful expression of my commitment in worship to Him.

http://givingtithes.com/i-dont-pay-tithes/

I hope that helps in some way.

nice fundraising sermon. The pastors must be in need of new cars. I thought Christ said the rich young ruler should sell all he had and give to the poor. Wonder why our pastors never see that verse. They only see the one they can manipulate to strip us of our wages.

wordtalk:

I'm quite aware of the use of either terms ('give' or 'pay') in relation to tithes, even where you're referring to something other than the language or expression - as I've observed in commenting to k.c1.

I may not speak on everyone's behalf; but this is what I hold: it's okay to 'give' tithes rather than assume it should be 'paid' as a legal debt. Although I already commented on this, perhaps i should repost that article with the link so you understand what I'm trying to say:

I hope that helps in some way.

Thanks. I have a question or two but would defer till some other time.

I've been reading the thread.
Nowhere does Jesus himself say 'tithe'.
Keep in mind there WAS no church in Jesus' time.

That came later.
As for all those OT citations for giving of the first-fruits, well, it's a case of cherry picking.
The pastors who support tithing pick and choose the parts of the OT they want to ensure the money flow.
I wonder how many of those tithing pastor observe ALL the OT admonitions.
Or just the ones that justify their greed.

Think of what that percentage of money could so for your kids before you give it to a pastor-
starting with dental attention and education.

tithing=wash-wash, in my view.

The issue of money in Christendom is one of the hottest topics I know of. The way men of God drive the the issue of giving, will make you think it's the most important issue in the body of Christ. As for me I determine what project I want to give towards and give for it, not minding what the pastor says. Actually the xtian has a right to administer his money the way God lays it on his heart, see acts 5:4
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
The xtian will also give account of the resources God gave to him, his pastor will give account of his as well. Let every man be persuaded in his heart before giving, don't give when you feel you are been on pressure to give. Only giving based on faith moves God.
Pastors are also in the habit of cursing their congregation (with devourer) who don't pay their tithe, while they say that they aren't practicing old testament tithe system.actually there is no devourer for the Christian. Nobody should feel pressurized to give. A giving that comes from a cheerful heart only is acceptable to God, after all the holy spirit is not exclusive to only the pastor, a true child of God ought to have the holy spirit also.

oluwabamis,
That is the best things I've read on the subject ever.
Thank you!

davidylan:

nice fundraising sermon. The pastors must be in need of new cars. [b]I thought Christ said the rich young ruler should sell all he had and give to the poor. [/b]Wonder why our pastors never see that verse. They only see the one they can manipulate to strip us of our wages.

it amazes me when people get all technical about tithes e.g joe, wordtalk etc. tithes are very unimportant, meaningless and doesnt change who you are. when it comes to some literal truth, they turn the blind eye and start conjuring meanings to things that doesnt add up. true talk brother.

LoveKing:

it amazes me when people get all technical about tithes e.g joe, wordtalk etc. tithes are very unimportant, meaningless and doesnt change who you are. when it comes to some literal truth, they turn the blind eye and start conjuring meanings to things that doesnt add up. true talk brother.

The funny aspect is that people who dont pay "tithes" i.e Atheist, Muslims and people of other faiths and walks of Life still live fulfilling and comfortable lives.

So, Tithing is only beneficial to the recipient. It neither adds nor remove anything to the quality of anybody's life (Except the beneficiaries). If people that dont pay tithes can still lead a successful and fulfilling lives, what difference does Tithing make then.

It only enriches dubious individuals who takes advantage of faithful and hopeful folks.

Jesus laid so much emphasis on the poor.

The word "poor" was mentioned so many times when he spoke.

He never mentioned the words "Tithes" or "Tithing" in the bible, yet the word existed during those times.



One would have thought he would have mentioned what was relevant to the lives of his Followers. (He did mention what was/is relevant to the lives of his followers, Tithing was not among)

dare2think:

The funny aspect is that people who dont pay "tithes" i.e Atheist, Muslims and people of other faiths and walks of Life still live fulfilling and comfortable lives.

So, Tithing is only beneficial to the recipient. It adds neither adds nor remove anything to the quality of anybody's life. If people that dont pay tithes can still lead a successful and fulfilling lives, what difference does Tithing make then.

It only enriches dubious individuals who takes advantage of faithful and hopeful folks.

Christianity is like the Mafia heirachy when it comes to money!!!! Money goes up, sh#t goes down.
You have to pay tribute to Tony Soprano in order to be in his good books and if you don't, you just might get whacked. Sounds like what God and his consiglieries (pastors) do.  Quote Malachi 3 8-10 and have feeble minded people scrambling for their wallets and purses.  Religions can't survive without id!ots.

Still don't understand why an entity that is believed to have spoken the fundamental laws of nature into being needs money. Can't he just speak it into existence. Let there be money and there was Dollars!!!

If the money is to show your appreciation for his benevolence, I think you Christians need refunds immediately.

dare2think:

The funny aspect is that people who dont pay "tithes" i.e Atheist, Muslims and people of other faiths and walks of Life still live fulfilling and comfortable lives.
So, Tithing is only beneficial to the recipient. It neither adds nor remove anything to the quality of anybody's life (Except the beneficiaries). If people that dont pay tithes can still lead a successful and fulfilling lives, what difference does Tithing make then.
It only enriches dubious individuals who takes advantage of faithful and hopeful folks.

Without living the life of a giver your prosperity only results in destruction
Proverbs 1:32
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

One thing is giving by helping the people affected by the bomb blast in Abuja.
Another is giving to help a pastor pay for his jet plane.

Azibalua:

Without living the life of a giver your prosperity only results in destruction
Proverbs 1:32
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

Destruction of what
Those to whom you give your money do not not appear to give - they prosper whilst the giver sinks ever deeper into penuary.
The tithes do not feed the hungry, house the homeless or educate the poor.
They allow people like Chris and Anita and the GO live lives of unprecedented luxury.
You can find a quote in the bible for anything. Unfortunately, the bible is a useless book, full of dubious wisdom and morality.

Zodiac61:

Destruction of what
Those to whom you give your money do not not appear to give - they prosper whilst the giver sinks ever deeper into penuary.
The tithes do not feed the hungry, house the homeless or educate the poor.
They allow people like Chris and Anita and the GO live lives of unprecedented luxury.
You can find a quote in the bible for anything. Unfortunately, the bible is a useless book, full of dubious wisdom and morality.

The bible contains the infallible word of god, whether you believe it or not it does not change a thing.

Since you believe that the bible is infallible, could you please let me know what the last words of Jesus were?
The four Gospel writers give different versions and only one, or none, can be right.

dare2think:

Jesus laid so much emphasis on the poor.

The word "poor" was mentioned so many times when he spoke.

He never mentioned the words "Tithes" or "Tithing" in the bible, yet the word existed during those times.



One would have thought he would have mentioned what was relevant to the lives of his Followers. (He did mention what was/is relevant to the lives of his followers, Tithing was not among)

Each sentence is wrong, why? While i sympathize with whoever you call 'poor', and i believe Jesus sympathizes. Truth is that Jesus didn't lay His emphasis on 'poor' like you're projecting.

An interesting point, Image 123.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_rich_young_man

m Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chinese depiction of Jesus and the rich young man, Beijing, 1879.

Jesus and the rich young man (also called Jesus and the rich young ruler) is an episode in the life of Jesus in the New Testament.[1][2] It appears in the Gospel of Matthew 19:16–30, the Gospel of Mark 10:17–31 and the Gospel of Luke 18:18–30.

In the Gospel of Matthew, a rich young man asks Jesus what actions bring eternal life. First Jesus advises the man to obey the commandments. When the man responds that he already observes them, Jesus adds:

    If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.[3]

The Gospel of Luke has a similar episode and states that:

    When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."[4]

The disciples then ask Jesus who then can be saved, and Jesus replies: "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

In any case, there is no talk of Jesus saying- give to the pastors of your church, is there.
In both Gospels, the advice is to give to the poor.

Azibalua:

The bible contains the infallible word of god, whether you believe it or not it does not change a thing.

Since you believe that the bible is infallible, please, answer the following questions :

1. Was man created before the other animals or after?
2. How many of each animal did Noah take on the ark?
3. Is wisdom a good or a bad thing?
4. Does god visit the sins of the father on the son or not?
5. What were the last words of Jesus before he died?
6. Did god or satan provoke David into conducting a census?
7. How did Judas die?
8. Has any man acsended into heaven?
9. Is it good to be married or not?
10. Should one honour one's parents or not?

Answers please, quoting chapter and verse. If you want want to, you may try to explain the contradictions away.

Image123:

Each sentence is wrong, why? While i sympathize with whoever you call 'poor', and i believe Jesus sympathizes. Truth is that Jesus didn't lay His emphasis on 'poor' like you're projecting.

Really?

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 11:4-6
4. And Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what you hear and see:
5 the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor [/b]have good news preached to them.
6. And blessed is he who takes no offense at me."

Matt  19: 21
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the [b]poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Mark 14
6 But Jesus said, "Let her alone; why do you trouble her? She has done a beautiful thing to me.
7 For you always have the poor [/b]with you, and whenever you will, you can do good to them; but you will not always have me.

Luke 4

18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the [b]poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,

Luke 14
13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind,

John 12

6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box he used to take what was put into it.
7 Jesus said, "Let her alone, let her keep it for the day of my burial.
8 The poor [/b]you always have with you, but you do not always have me."




So, please tell me how each of my sentences are wrong? If all the above is not an "emphasis", then I wonder what is?



[b]emphasis [ˈɛmfəsɪs]
n pl -ses [-siːz]
1. special importance or significance
2. an object, idea, etc., that is given special importance or significance
3. (Literature / Rhetoric) stress made to fall on a particular syllable, word, or phrase in speaking
4. force or intensity of expression he spoke with special emphasis on the subject of civil rights
5. sharpness or clarity of form or outline the sunlight gave emphasis to the shape of the mountain



In reference to the context in which my initial post was outlined, the point I was trying to make was that Jesus (the epitome that exemplifies Christianity) placed more "emphasis" on the poor than on tithes. Judging by the evidence -and his speeches- in the bible, my comparison is accurate.

So all you could do was to go and paste everywhere the word 'poor' was mentioned by Jesus in the gospels and that's your emphasis. Well, suit yourself. You're carried.

Touché


I only backed up my statement.

And incase you missed the last paragraph, so you fully comprehend my assertions, I repeat it again;

dare2think:


In reference to the context in which my initial post was outlined, the point I was trying to make was that Jesus (the epitome that exemplifies Christianity) placed more "emphasis" on the poor than on tithes. Judging by the evidence -and his speeches- in the bible, my comparison is accurate.

PA1982:


In any case, there is no talk of Jesus saying- give to the pastors of your church, is there.
In both Gospels, the advice is to give to the poor.

I don't know why Satan hates men of God with such passion . If he has his way he would have killed all shepherd so as to get the sheep.There are different kinds of givings in the bible . Giving to the poor is only one of the many givings . a man of God Has it's place.

Galatians 6:6-7
6 The person who is taught God's word should share all good things with his teacher. 7 Make no mistake about this: You can never make a fool out of God. Whatever you plant is what you'll harvest.

Matthew 10:41
41 If you welcome a prophet because he is a man of God, you will be given the same reward a prophet gets.

The welcome here refers to giving or welfare.

Luke 10:7-8
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:

I see image321 has chosen to ignore my post. No problem.
Joagbaje:
Galatians wasn't written by a disciple quoting the sayings of Jesus, was it?
Is it really about tithing? Aren't you just quote mining here?

For the Matthew quote:
What does prophecy have to do with the subject of church tithing?

And ditto for your third scripture quote.
It says nothing enriching pastors, does it?

i see PA1982 has decided to give me a new name. i'm flattered, which of your postS has been ignored?

@dare2think
i said suit yourself, i don't have any problem with giving to 'the poor'. The context of the thread is giving, and the argument is 'to the poor'. You insist that Jesus' emphasis is giving to the poor. I said Jesus sympathizes with the poor but that's not/never his emphasis. Then you go quoting all the passages where you think Jesus mentioned poor.
Note that ONLY 2 of those passages you quoted suggest GIVING to the poor. 2other verses you quoted suggest Jesus saying give to me first, you can think of the poor later. Now if that's emphasis, i'm wondering what's not.
P.S Give to the poor, give to the poor o! PLEASE give to the poor, happy?

-sighs-

Ok, I'll indulge you one more time;

dare2think:



In reference to the context in which my initial post was outlined, the point I was trying to make was that Jesus (the epitome that exemplifies Christianity) placed more "emphasis" on the poor than on tithes. Judging by the evidence -and his speeches- in the bible, my comparison is accurate.

Comprehension is key.

Image123:

@dare2think
You insist that Jesus' emphasis is giving to the poor.

Atleast quote me right

Where and when did I say that?

Like I said, comprehension is key.