Just want 2 know if there r pentecostal churches especially in Nigeria who do not conform to the teachings of the word of faith movement.Can mainstream pentecostalism really detach itself from this movement.

Can the catholic church detach itself from Mary worship, Sun worship, Pagan rituals etc.

@oga copy n paste

this thread is not for riff raffs like u to comment Oloribruku ode!!!

You can abuse me all you want, but you have to admit the catholic church is not the mother of all churches.

Its proper name is mother of all 'harlots'.

Here's the OP again, it's clear you skipped it:

Just want 2 know if there r pentecostal churches especially in Nigeria who do not conform to the teachings of the word of faith movement.Can mainstream pentecostalism really detach itself from this movement.

The traditional doctrine of older style (old school) Pentecostal churches like the Assemblies of God and Deeper Life (for example) contradict the teachings of the WoF movement. In fact, I remember that in the 90s (or maybe slightly later) the AoG in America produced a document denouncing WoF doctrine.

Unfortunately, due to a number of factors including the ubiquity and pervasiveness of WoF doctrine on "Christian" television, herd mentality, overpowering aspiration and/or even greed, some elements of WoF doctrine have seeped through into many older style churches in Nigeria even including those that are not Pentecostal. Some countries. like the UK, are more resistant for various reasons and the older style churches have largely kept WoF doctrine out ----- but it is always threatening and there is continued necessity for alertness.

Going through the Assemblies of God website, I realise now that they also produced the rather good document in the link below from as far back as 1980!

http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/pp_downloads/pp_4183_confession.pdf

Forget penticostalism or whatever name . Prosperity is the will of God for his children. Poverty is The will of Satan. your spiritual wellbeing will give birth to health, and other things.

3 John 1:2
2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

@Joagbaje

So which of the apostles were materially prosperous?

Does it mean that satan had his way in their lives?

Even Jesus himself had nothing, And Christians are supposed to be 'Christ-like'.

Did satan have his way in the life of Christ?

italo:

@Joagbaje
So which of the apostles were materially prosperous?Does it mean that satan had his way in their lives?

There is difference between self denial and poverty. Poverty is evil ,self denial is for a purpose just like fasting .besides
The apostles were sacrifices for the rest of us. That was their mandate. It is nit every body that has similar calling.

2 Corinthians 6:10
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich. .

2 Corinthians 4:12
12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

1 Corinthians 4:9-10
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. .

Even Jesus himself had nothing, And Christians are supposed to be 'Christ-like'.Did satan have his way in the life of Christ?

He denied himself for our sakes . He was smitten so that we could be healed , he was made poor so that we can be rich .

2 Corinthians 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

@joagbaje


material prosperity while as good as it is was not the essence of the incarnation and eventual death of Jesus.

A good christian can either be rich or poor .There is no where in the bible where Jesus promised beleivers that they will all be rich.Likewise there is no where it was stated dat unbeleivers would be poor.All these r just a figment of imaginaton of these WOF cronies.

2hats why an atheist is the richest man in d world today

It is not a must that every christian must be rich. But at least every christian has a right to know what belongs to them. As against the poverty message .Can you explain this scripture?

2 Corinthians 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Besides , christian prosperity is for the purpose and serving God , not worldliness and materialism.

Joagbaje:

Can you explain this scripture?

2 Corinthians 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

That verse (2 Corinthians 8:9) is not all about material riches. In fact, the believers Paul was writing about were materially poor and he was commending their GENEROSITY inspite of their DEEP POVERTY - please read the chapter from verse 1 and see the big picture:

[list] [1] Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; [2] How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.[/list]

I am not against true prosperity (material and spiritual) for Christians; but it is dangerous for people to just snatch up verses like 2 Corinthians 8:9 to promote a "gospel of materialism". Jesus did not become "poor" in order to make Christians materially or financially "rich". Materialism is not one of the PURPOSES or REASONS for Jesus' vicarious death and resurrection. Jesus Himself taught that a man's life DOES NOT consist in the abundance of the things he possesses (Luke 12:15). The apostles in the NT often presented 'riches' in the sense of spiritual soundness in contrast to material possession (Hebrews 11:26 and James 2:5-6 & 5:1).

I'm not saying that God doesn't make us materially rich, but he doesn't always do so. And when he leaves one materially poor, it doesn't mean it's satan's will.

And all these verses you mentioned don't necessarily refer to material wealth. Jesus paid very little attention to material wealth during his ministry. Just look at the miracles Jesus did:

He changed water to wine at the wedding, he healed the sick, he fed the hungry(5000), he made Peter walk on water, he forgave sin, he raised the dead, he prophesied, he freed the possessed, he rose from the dead, BUT HE NEVER MADE ANYONE WEALTHY, though he had the power to do so.

If poverty were evil, Jesus would not have neglected it in his ministry. He dealt with everything evil, he could not have omitted poverty if it were.

italo:


Even Jesus himself had nothing, And Christians are supposed to be 'Christ-like'.

Can you truly say that you have NOTHING? NOTHING at all? There are many people who are so poor that they have almost nothing to boast of, and for all that these folks are NOT even Christ-like in any sense.

We should be thankful and put our trust in God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy (1 Timothy 6:17).  

---

chukwudi44:

There is no where in the bible where Jesus promised beleivers that they will all be rich.

There's also no verse in the Bible where Jesus promised believers that they will all be poor. In fact, He actually left a huge promise for ALL believers who can exercise faith enough to receive from Him - NOW IN THIS TIME (Mark 10:29-30). As you said, however, material prosperity is not the essence of the incarnation and eventual death of Jesus.

Likewise there is no where it was stated dat unbeleivers would be poor.

There is no verse that states that unbelievers would be rich.

2hats why an atheist is the richest man in d world today

That's just your own figment of imagination. The fact is that people becoming wealthy or poor have nothing to do with whether they are Christians or atheists. A believer could be as poor as an unbeliever in the same way that either of them could apply certain factors in life to become wealthy.

italo:

If poverty were evil, Jesus would not have neglected it in his ministry. He dealt with everything evil, he could not have omitted poverty if it were.

Being poor is not necessarily an indicator of something evil, for there are people who face such experiences as a matter of fact (Deut. 15:11). Yet, it is also important to note that poverty is evil if it becomes the foundation of an ideology or ministry (consider, for example, the sluggard - Proverbs 13:4; 20:4; 26:16).

BUT HE NEVER MADE ANYONE WEALTHY, though he had the power to do so.

And He never made anyone poor, although He had the power to do so.

wordtalk:

That verse (2 Corinthians 8:9) is not all about material riches.

What was is about then? Was Jesus spiritually poor? The "poverty" of Jesus was materially. The wealth of the believer is both spiritually and materially.

In fact, the believers Paul was writing about were materially poor and he was commending their GENEROSITY inspite of their DEEP POVERTY - please read the chapter from verse 1 and see the big picture:

They had deep poverty for a little season  not because it was Gods will for Christians. Remember they had economic crisis which was prophesied about by agabus .

Acts 11:28-30
28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. 29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:.

So , poverty was not their way of life , it was only for that period.That's why paul made them contribute money, and the sure way out of poverty is giving. He made them practice the law of sowing and reaping.

2 Corinthians 9:6
6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.


When they give , they prosper.

wordtalk:

Being poor is not necessarily an indicator of something evil,

Agree, I said in some other thread , there are several reasons for poverty, some are based on ignorance of the word, laziness, indiscipline ,etc. However there are still some Christians that may experienc poverty by the virtue of their callings in God. They know of their wealth in christ but they know the cross of denial they have to carry too

^^ Nice, and I'm not arguing about or against that.

However,

Joagbaje:

What was is about then? Was Jesus spiritually poor? The "poverty" of Jesus was materially.

The 'poor' in reference to Jesus in that verse (2 Corinthians 8:9) is not about materialism or the opposite of affluence. The fact that Paul was commending their GENEROSITY shows in context that material wealth was not the issue.

If the verse says that "though he was rich", we have to ask WHEN that occured. Was Jesus viewed as a materially wealthy Person in His earthly ministry? Do wealthy people get born into materially poor families? Do you describe someone as materially wealthy when He boasts of having no place to lay His head (Matthew 8:20)?

No, the Gospels do not present a materially wealthy Jesus. He Himself depended on other people to minister to His needs (Luke 8:3); and as italo noted earlier, He did not miraculously make anyone materially wealthy. Could it then be possible, at the very least, that His riches had to do with His glory as the Son of God, while His poverty had to do with His humility as the Servant - Phil. 2:6-11?

Although Jesus Himself was Deity in His "riches", yet for our sakes He became "poor" when He "made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men." (Philippians 2)

Some have concluded that the word "riches" must by default be referring to material wealth, money and cash, etc. since the Greek for "riches" is "ploutos" (defined as 'wealth (as fulness), that is, (literally) money, possessions, or (figuratively) abundance, richness, (specifically) valuable bestowment').

I wonder: if that were the case, was Paul then saying he was given grace to preach "unsearchable money" in his quote on being commissioned to "preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ" (Ephesians 3:? When did "unsearchable riches" translate to "unsearchable money" in that context when in very fact Jesus said that a man's life DOES NOT consist in the abundance of the things he possesses (Luke 12:15)? If the essence of Jesus' ministry was to preach "unsearcable money and possessions" to believers, why then would He yet teach that a man's life DOES NOT consist in those things?

They had deep poverty for a little season  not because it was Gods will for Christians. Remember they had economic crisis which was prophesied about by agabus .

That is a conjecture and has no bearing on what Paul was stating. He was commending their GENEROSITY, not some 'economic crisis' survival. Generosity is often commended when poor people give out of their deep poverty (Luke 21:1-4 and 2 Corinthians 8:2), or when people give BEYOND their ability (2 Corinthians 8:3). The "great trial of affliction" in 2 Cor. 8:2 is reminiscent of the trials of persecutions that believers experience in their commitment to Christ - compare 1 Thes. 1:6; 2:14 and 3:3-4.

So , poverty was not their way of life , it was only for that period.That's why paul made them contribute money, and the sure way out of poverty is giving. He made them practice the law of sowing and reaping.

No, Paul did not "make them" practise any such law of sowing and reaping as a means of escaping economic crisis. This cliche of 'the law of sowing and reaping' has been seized upon by money-grabbers in the Church to deceive simple-minded folks that it is the sure-fire means or "way out of poverty". Paul preached on giving, and when he did so he was careful to let his receipients know that he was NOT COMMANDING or DEMANDING them to give or sow by some law - compare 2 Corinthians 8:8 ('I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love').

The NT teaches a principle of sowing and reaping as an aspect of giving; but nowhere is it taught as a "way out of poverty". When people begin to make sowing and reaping the foundation of their "way out of poverty", you can bet your life savings that you're listening to an anti-gospel and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When they give , they prosper.

We don't read that about the woman who gave her everything in Luke 21:1-4.

wordtalk:

The NT teaches a principle of sowing and reaping as an aspect of giving; but nowhere is it taught as a "way out of poverty". When people begin to make sowing and reaping the foundation of their "way out of poverty", you can bet your life savings that you're listening to an anti-gospel and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Good talk but i do think you are wasting your time with Jo we are discussing his 'daily bread' here, i don't see him accepting this simple truth.

Joagbaje:

When they give , they prosper.

Clown

@Joagbaje, yes Jesus was spiritually poor(if you know what that means), hence, he said "blessed are the poor in spirit".

I hope that addresses your position squarely now.

@Wordtalk, u seem 2b getn me wrong. I'm not saying God wants us to be materially poor, I'm saying God is not against it. They're 2 different things.

italo:

@Wordtalk, u seem 2b getn me wrong. I'm not saying God wants us to be materially poor, I'm saying God is not against it. They're 2 different things.

I apologise if I read you wrongly.

italo:

@Joagbaje, yes Jesus was spiritually poor(if you know what that means), hence, he said "blessed are the poor in spirit".
I hope that addresses your position squarely now.

No it does not. Jesus was not spiritually poor , poor in spirit is different from poor spiritually. Poor spiritually mean he lacked in piritusll things ,thst doesnt mske sense because he seemed to be richer in piritusl things thsn any person in his days . The poor in spirit refers to attitude . Like humility kind of.

So when the bible says he was made poor it has to do with material things in contrast to his vast heavenly wealth.

wordtalk:



That is a conjecture and has no bearing on what Paul was stating. He was commending their GENEROSITY, not some 'economic crisis' survival. Generosity is often commended when poor people give out of their deep poverty (Luke 21:1-4 and 2 Corinthians 8:2), or when people give BEYOND their ability (2 Corinthians 8:3). The "great trial of affliction" in 2 Cor. 8:2 is reminiscent of the trials of persecutions that believers experience in their commitment to Christ - compare 1 Thes. 1:6; 2:14 and 3:3-4.

No, Paul did not "make them" practise any such law of sowing and reaping as a means of escaping economic crisis. This cliche of 'the law of sowing and reaping' has been seized upon by money-grabbers in the Church to deceive simple-minded folks that it is the sure-fire means or "way out of poverty". Paul preached on giving, and when he did so he was careful to let his receipients know that he was NOT COMMANDING or DEMANDING them to give or sow by some law - compare 2 Corinthians 8:8 ('I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love').

The NT teaches a principle of sowing and reaping as an aspect of giving; but nowhere is it taught as a "way out of poverty". When people begin to make sowing and reaping the foundation of their "way out of poverty", you can bet your life savings that you're listening to an anti-gospel and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We don't read that about the woman who gave her everything in Luke 21:1-4.

It is terrifying and utterly disappointing the way christians build theology on conjecture. I have no problem with suggesting that something might have happened because of what is not written in the Bible. But to build a doctrine on such omissions, incomplete facts or perhaps even falsehood is sad.

And like I said earlier, if pastors really believe in their "give yourself out of poverty" message, they should test it empirically and see how well it has worked. It's like Obama claiming his job plan will create a million jobs, but refuses an evaluation of it. Or rejects facts to the contrary.

So far, what I see is a message of giving that guarantees the pastor and his family a life of limitless luxury while 95% of the givers wallow in poverty or barely-making it. And of the 5% that made it, many of them did so because they're from rich or connected families, etc. I wonder why these Nigerian churches with their message of giving out of poverty have not been able to rescue their members abroad suffering like the rest of the people. I heard the other time that a Nigerian church's worship center was foreclosed upon in Northern Virginia. Members obviously did not have enough money to pay the mortgage. Of course, such would not happen in Nigeria. All they need is mention the financial difficulty and one corrupt politician or some other thief would donate to take care of that. And the pastor will jump up with his message about giving as the be-all and end-all of acquiring wealth.

I believe giving is important for the believer. But pastors are simply abusing the message of giving. And that's really sad.

Poverty is not evil Mr Joagbaje. When I said the apostles were poor, you said they were sacrificed for us.

But St Paul in 2Tim 1:8 said: Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God,

And those sufferings clearly include forsaking everything for Christ - even wealth.

Dat clearly shows that we are to emulate them. They are not mere sacrificial lambs, but role models.

This prosperity gospel is what you know people want to hear so you preach it to them to entice them. You tell dem only to believe and dey'll get to heaven, you tell them their sins won't stop them from heaven and you tell them that suffering is not their portion when Jesus said "take up your cross daily and follow me".

Bro Jo has said it all.
Let him that hath ears Hear.

(Joagbaje)Agree, I said in some other thread , there are several reasons for poverty, some are based on ignorance of the word, laziness, indiscipline ,etc. However there are still some Christians that may experienc poverty by the virtue of their callings in God. They know of their wealth in christ but they know the cross of denial they have to carry too

They are many of these out there, u re very correct!

(nlmediator) I believe giving is important for the believer. But pastors are simply abusing the message of giving. And that's really sad.

There is no service without a GIVING topic, sad indeed.

nlMediator:

And like I said earlier, if pastors really believe in their "give yourself out of poverty" message, they should test it empirically and see how well it has worked.

That's the point. A pastor has to put the word of God to work by being a giver. A pastor who does not give will lack. so naturaly he must first be a giver because he is a christian .

Joagbaje:

That's the point. A pastor has to put the word of God to work by being a giver. A pastor who does not give will lack. so naturaly he must first be a giver because he is a christian .

Oh no, giving-as-a-way- of- escaping- from- poverty is not tested empirically simply by the pastor’s giving. If I come up with a brand of pain-killer today and test it on myself and family, claiming it cured our headache, will NAFDAC approve the drug on that basis? If you truly believe that giving is THE way out of poverty, test it empirically by looking at the rate of giving by each member and see if it corresponds to their current (improved) financial position. Then control for – or discount – such factors as whether the person got richer because his brother became a governor or poorer because he has a gambling problem, etc. What you see will PROVE if the message is working or not.

Joagbaje:

That's the point. A pastor has to put the word of God to work by being a giver. A pastor who does not give will lack.  so naturaly he must first be a giver  because he is a christian .

If a pastor give whats the use?afterall the money return back to him/her.
Is it true that most churches do pay church workers? i dont want to believe that but from a person that got paid doing a secretary post in church

nlMediator:

Oh no,  giving-as-a-way- of- escaping- from- poverty is not tested empirically simply by the pastor’s giving. If I come up with a brand of pain-killer today and test it on myself and family, claiming it cured our headache, will NAFDAC approve the drug on that basis? If you truly believe that giving is THE way out of poverty, test it empirically by looking at the rate of giving by each member and see if it corresponds to their current (improved) financial position. Then control for – or discount – such factors as whether the person got richer because his brother became a governor or poorer because he has a gambling problem, etc. What you see will PROVE if the message is working or not.

What are you saying . Is every pastor rich? Does every pastor recieve? .  Every christian ought to practice the law of Giving and RECIEVING .  These are biblical principles. If a pastor is not a giver he will be in lack .

plappville:

If a pastor give whats the use?afterall the money return back to him/her.
Is it true that most churches do pay church workers? i dont want to believe that but from a person that got paid doing a secretary post in church

That's the mistake many people make. Church money doesn't belong to the pastor. Besides most pastors have their own jobs. Pastoring is a responsibility. Some who are not working and are devoted to the ministry full time . May be on salary . And they ougth to do their own giving in tithes and offerings like every other person. The church ,money doesn't belong to them. They are only stewards.