lakal:

There are very few Ijebus who deny being Yoruba.  Don't try to play that spin. The controversy stems from Ijebus saying that they predate Oduduwa, which is another argument entirely.

lakal:

Where did the Awujale say that the Ijebus are not Yorubas? It seems to be more of what I stated in the last sentence of my first post, that the Ijebu believe that their culture predates Oduduwa.

lakal:

^^ That still goes along with what I'm saying. Every Yoruba myth states that their founders came from the East. The Ijebus (or rather ,the Awujale) are just saying that they got to their present location first.

lawani:
According to Yoruba account, all human beings emanated from the first spot on Earth where land rose above the waters and started to expand. That spot is called Ife or Ufe meaning expansion. That spot might be anywhere in the world for all we know. There probably have been very many Ifes. What the Awujale meant is that his dynasty did not emanate from the present Ife in Osun state established by the Meccan, Oduduwa and this is right. Ijebu Eredo was a contemporary if not greater than the Ife in Osun state. Owu is another dynasty that did not emanate from the new Ife but they both formed alliance. The long and short of it is that Ijebu which is a center for Ifa studies can not claim to not be from Ife but they can claim to have an identity that predates Oduduwa who arrived recently. The Oyo, Benin, Ijesha and etc can not make any such claim. However all human beings according to Yoruba thought are descended from the series of ancient Ifes that declined.

macof:

"That Ife could be anywhere in the world". .. Interesting

Awujale really missed a big point. .He must have mistaken the "Owodaiye" in Ife Owodaiye for Waddai. But "Ife Owodaiye" isn't peculiar to the Ijebu. All yoruba relate with that

lawani:
He did not mistake anything in my opinion. There were several states when Oduduwa arrived. Some were so established that they did not take a new prince from the new dynasty in Ife, some retreated into the hills and established new identities named after ancient empires. This is more common in Ondo and Ekiti. Ijebu and Owu married princesses from Ife. Patrilineally, the Awujale should be taken as descended from an ancient Sudanese royal family in Wadai just as the story is passed down.

macof:


How exactly does sudan fit into all this? make me understand that


btw Nobody retreated from Oduduwa except the Ilaje(this is even disputed as some consider the event to have begun much after Oduduwa's reign), and no yoruba settlement is known to be named after any Empire

also the Awujale is known all over Yorubaland to be a son of Oduduwa

lawani:

Our own family retreated into the Ekiti hills, then came back to nationalise as Ijeshas under the Owa Obokun. I am descended from the ancient Ajeros and one of my ancestors was an Ogun incarnate. Many people retreated and held on to ancient identities like Ara, Ijero, Ire, Ogotun and etc. Those are names of very ancient empires. There was an ancient Oduduwa who was a woman, the orisa of love, in the custody of the Awori. She was wife to Obatala, though Obatala has also been portrayed as a woman in Ifa verses. The second Oduduwa is the Meccan who is the progenitor of majority of the most prominent Obas. Awujale is a son of Oduduwa through a woman but has his own distinct lineage which predates the Meccan Oduduwa by I think 5 monarchs. The people from Ijebu are descended from Ife but not an Ile Ife but an Ode Ife.

lawani:

Our own family retreated into the Ekiti hills, then came back to nationalise as Ijeshas under the Owa Obokun. I am descended from the ancient Ajeros and one of my ancestors was an Ogun incarnate. Many people retreated and held on to ancient identities like Ara, Ijero, Ire, Ogotun and etc. Those are names of very ancient empires. There was an ancient Oduduwa who was a woman, the orisa of love, in the custody of the Awori. She was wife to Obatala, though Obatala has also been portrayed as a woman in Ifa verses. The second Oduduwa is the Meccan who is the progenitor of majority of the most prominent Obas. Awujale is a son of Oduduwa through a woman but has his own distinct lineage which predates the Meccan Oduduwa by I think 5 monarchs. The people from Ijebu are descended from Ife but not an Ile Ife but an Ode Ife. Their Oba is patrilineally descended from Wadai while also descended from Oduduwa the Meccan through a woman who was Oduduwa's daughter. Ditto for the Olowu. Wadai is important because that was what was passed on. Too late to change the history.

macof:


I see, when you said ancient empires my mind went far from this. You are right some kingdoms established during Oduduwa's time(and later) were named after old settlements (I wouldn't call them empires) ie. Owo, Oye, Ejigbo, Iwo, Ara (Aramoko is named after it)
I wouldn't say They retreated from Oduduwa, most of them were Princes( so is claimed)

Again with this mecca hypothesis? Have you ever wondered why certain people from Oyo with Islamic influence were the ones that propagated this? Why don't Ife folks speak of this?

No, According to all available reads Awujale - that is Obanta is a direct son of Oduduwa. . His Ijebu links comes from his mother Gborowo. Olowu is the only grandson from a daughter(Oduduwa's first child)... I know there are many books copying from Samuel Johnson claiming Alaketu, and some others as sons of daughters but those are wrong

How many Typical ijebu folks know what Waddai is? not to mention where in the world it is. If not for the exposure of Oba Adetona

lawani:

You understate what those empires are. Ogun discovered iron and established a world power in reality. An iron super power. Ire was nothing less than that. Ogun was the first Onire. Where that ancient Ire was located, no one knows. Where Iranje where Obatala ruled was located, no one knows. Those were advanced civilizations that may have covered the whole globe when they prospered. Don't think because they are now represented by tiny villages, it means that is what they have always been.

On your idea about the origin of the Mecca story, what is your opinion about the Lamurudu story and how did it surface among the Yoruba. Lamurudu is a Yoruba rendition of Nimrod as an uneducated Yoruba can only pronounce Nimrod as Lamurudu. The newly arrived Oduduwa obviously introduced himself to people in Ife as a descendant of Nimrod. Nimrod was the most important man in pre Mohammedan middle east history and would have been the ancestor of a pre Mohammedan Meccan royalty. So I believe the story is true.

You should not think that the Awujale manufactured the name Wadai all by himself. Why would you do that?

absoluteSuccess:
It doesn't sound pleasant to sell the great history of Ijebuland to an obscure spot without historical relevance.

An account claimed there's 'Ode Ijebu' at Wadai, if so, does this singular occurence transplant Ode Ijebu to 'Ijebu Ode'?

Nimrod came to us through the bible and Sultan Bello and Rev. Johnson, not through some scholars, Oduduwa did not come with Nimrod.

How do you accept that story to be truth? Why would only Nimrod and Oduduwa survive from Abraham to Mohamet time without scratch? Why is it that Oduduwa has no sibling but sons named after kingdom?

alake, onisabe, orangun, alafin, olowu, alaketu, onipopo, are these arabic names? if not then Yoruba was before the 'Islamic Oduduwa'.

And if that is the case, the Islamic Oduduwa and his 'club7' has failed. There was an early Oduduwa, whose name was stolen to give credence to the 'hamitic theory' among the Yorubas by the 'Islamic Oduduwa folks', who believed it is theirs.

All we are saying, stop this anachronistic identity theft.

macof:


Fancy seeing you kick against the Mecca and Waddai claims.

I'm surprised really

macof:


Ire of Ogun appears to remain today's Ire. the sword Ogun used is still at the spot he kept it

I'm not saying "Lamurudu" isn't the yoruba rendition of Nimrod, due to the accent. Arabs say "Namrud" and it's evident "Namrud" was turned into "Lamurudu" by Yoruba tongue. ..those yorubas who had been influenced by islam
There's more than enough reason to call that mecca hypothesis a nonsense.
1. The legend of Nimrod is from Mesopotamia, Nimrod had no business with Mecca. It would have held more credence if they claim Lamurudu was from Mesopotamia not the Arabian peninsula
2. The Bible and Quran are where they picked up the idea of Lamurudu. .its not native to yorubas
3. According to Genesis 10:10; Nimrod founded Babel, Erech, Akkad and Calneh in the land of Shinar. Shinar is what the hebrews called Sumer(alternatively Mesopotamia), Babel is Babylon, Erech is Uruk, but Calneh is unidentified although scholars believe the word "Calneh" simply means "all of them" as in "all of them in the land of Shinar", Hence, Nimrod founded all the cities under Sumerian Influence.
4. The City of Sumer was the first in the middle-east, going back 6000BC. Oduduwa was a 12th/13th century personality. If Nimrod founded Sumer and all its surrounding cities around 6000BC, how can this same Nimrod be the father of Oduduwa who lived in the 12th/13th century
5. Some scholars believe that the name "Nimrod" was originally a cult name for a group of hunter gatherers who decided to settle in Mesopotamia..even Genesis 11:2 isn't far from this. If afterall Nimrod was not one man but a group of hunters, it makes the Lamurudu story into a joke
6. In Sumer, Ninurta was worshiped as the God of War and Hunting, Most Scholars have concluded that the name "Namrud/Nimrod" was the corruption of "Ninurta". Infact the arabs call the city of Calah by the name "Nimrud" . Calah happened to be the center of Ninurta worship.

No, waddai was a real kingdom, Oba Adetona didn't invent it. . I'm saying he like others who claim waddai origin for the Ijebus are ignorant of Waddai kingdom itself. . Many don't even know where waddai was located.
Let's see, Waddai boarded the Kanem-Borno empire, it should be in modern day Chad. many in their urge to cling to Ancient Egypt try to connect it to Egyptian civilization.
The Waddai people spoke a Nilo-Saharan language, how does Ijebu dialect correlate with Maban language of Waddai? . . We all know that Yoruba is the language of the Ijebus, and the surrounding dialects are similar to Ijebu
Ijebuland is much older than Waddai. . The Awujale dynasty alone began in the late 13th century, waddai was founded in 1603 . Pls how can the Awujale say ijebus are from this young state?
Not to forget, waddai was a Caliphate, full of muslims.. Ijebus had no muslims at this time

lawani:

What you are saying is a sacriledge. You can't dismiss your own ancestors as fools or as crooks. Nimrod was well known as far as Europe. Please read up about him. In the middle East, he was the most iconic character, the old Abraham. Surely a pre Islamic Meccan Monarch may refer to him as an ancestor. The Oduduwa dropped the name as a signature. The way you yourself might say you are a son of Oduduwa to some Europeans. Not a direct father but an ancestor. He obviously mentioned the name because he foresaw that there will be an identity crisis in the future just as we have today. You see, I believe the first Alaafin to be a practising Muslim is the present one. No self respecting people adopts a foreign religion. Doing so is a sign of defeat on all fronts. Islam was known to the Yoruba as far back as the 9th century but it was held at arms length as a matter of national pride. There were always Muslims but a tiny minority and anyone looking to rise in the society would have had to drop the tag as did Alaafin Sango in the 15th century. Islam was never that important to influence narratives. The Yoruba were mainly Yoruba in everything up until the 20th century. Who were the people being influenced by Muslims? Afonja? Aole? Oyabi? Gaha? Ogunmola? All those people lived recently and the idea that they were compromised by Islam can not fly. Do you know that the Ogun character was the one that introduced circumcision that was common in Kemitic Egypt and popularised by the Jews? Ogun Onire was the one that started it. It is only here that you have an account of the origin of circumcision. The Egyptians built the pyramids and we do not know how. The ancestors of the Yoruba were living in cities and under complex organisation before Kemitic Egypt and it appears they spoke thesame language. So what those ancient empires were or what they achieved is something we may never know but to evaluate them according to what now represents them will be inadequate. For example in ten thousand years, the site of today's Lagos may feature a tiny fishing village carrying on some Lagos tradition. It will be wrong to think that village represents what Lagos was in the past. Epidemics can wipe off a civilization to remain a remnant of it and etc. Things are not always the way they appear. I believe Oduduwa was displaced from Mecca by Mohammed himself and that the Awujale arrived before Islam ie before Wadai became a caliphate. The idea that the Awo, a highly conservative institution relied on the Bible and the Quran to formulate stories is highly untenable. If you have any more positions please add them.

macof:


So all I posted there fell on deaf ears or is it blind eyes yes?
At least you should have tried to counter my efforts with something I can hold on to. .


Are there any records of an Arabian king claiming ancestry to Nimrod?
Also I think I've made it clear that no single man named "Nimrod" is proved to have ever existed.


Awujale and Oduduwa couldn't have been around when islam was established by Mohammed around the 7th century
No Awo will ever say Lamurudu is the father of Oduduwa.