Michael547:

So are you saying that evil that happens to good people comes from God too?

Michael547:

So are you saying that evil that happens to good people comes from God too?

preciousee17:


Oh yes. He Himself might even punish you if the devil doesn't, infact, He usually punishes the ones He loves more thoroughly

preciousee17:


Devil has his own motives. But whenever God commands... Whenever God's Will needs to be done, even the devil obeys.
But the Devil being a full-time servant of God? No.

preciousee17:


Approval... How do I put it?
Before any bad thing (caused by the Devil) happens for instance, the Devil presents what he wants to do and why he wants to do it to God. And God analyzes the petition and gives the devil permission to carry out his request, according to what the victim deserves.

Michael547:

What does verse 13 say about the source of the suffering a Christian suffers? Does that verse say it comes from God?

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

preciousee17:
Alright, your response wasn't quite complete but let's carry on...




Now, from the whole analogy, you've seen that John must suffer, but who's happy in the process? Definitely not the Judge, but the lawyer. Only the lawyer is happy.

Now again, I never said bad things can't happen to good people, infact, if you check well, John wasn't particularly living a bad life when his case was brought back up... This happened many months later...
Most likely, John now had a good job and was living a normal life, but the sin he committed some months ago came back for him.
That's typically the concept of sowing and reaping. Many times we reap, just know that someone had sown a seed.
Remember this phrase, “The Long Arm Of Justice...” you can almost never outrun justice.

The devil doesn't fight for justice, no. His aim is to destroy people with punishment, God only allows punishment that you can bear. So John for instance may be locked up for years, that's his punishment.
If he comes out from prison with a hard heart, ready to cause some serious havoc, then the devil's plan is achieved. If he comes out from prison with a repentant heart, and a determination never to commit those sort of little crimes again, then God's plan is achieved.

But the aim is: Justice must be served. Every seed that was sown has to be reaped.

2. God doesn't use the devil to accomplish justice, rather it's the other way round... The devil uses the excuse of serving justice to actually gain permission to persecute people.
As I always say, whenever the devil doesn't, God as a Just Judge, will judge you and make you bear the consequences for your wrongs simply because He is Just.
And the people He loves the most (most likely good people) will suffer the most here on Earth.
Why? So that they will serve the punishments for all their sins before death, and on the Judgement Day, there'll be no sin that they'll need to be punished for again (since they've already suffered all the punishments here on Earth).
Meanwhile those who didn't suffer for their sins will start arranging to do that on the Day of Judgement...

The more I type, the more I feel like I've not said enough.
My explanations are not the final say, there are other correct points of views, but everything I say is Biblical and you can request for prove wherever you disagree.

Another nice and simple reason why good people suffer is simply Mistakes, they make mistakes that have consequences.

jaephoenix:

preciousee17:


A last reason (actually another interpretation of the above reasons) is Baptism Of Fire... This is the Christians POV
We must suffer to prove ourselves worthy of the Kingdom Of God.
Not like it's random suffering here and there. It's still more like reaping from the evil they committed when they were still sinners.
But this particular suffering just comes because you chose to follow Christ. Like people laughing at you and calling you virgin Mary (and as a sinner you had been laughing at people who wore torn shoes).
Or being hated at your job place because you tell the truth (and as a sinner, you had hated your class perfect because she always told the truth).
Or worse, being beaten for preaching (and as a sinner, you had lied against people and caused them to be beaten). Many examples

On the day of judgement, these are the little things that people will suffer for. But you'll be shocked to realize that you've already suffered yours while on Earth.

The last one I'll point out is inherited suffering.
That one is simple:

A child can inherit the father's wealth
A child can also inherit the father's debt.

A sinner can inherit blessings from the parents or the environment he/she finds him/herself.
A normal person can also inherit punishment from the parents or the environment he/she finds him/herself.
Being born again usually reduces the things we inherit, and yes, if you're setting things right with God, He'll show you the source of the problem and you can get rid of it. But the unbeliever won't even know.

preciousee17:


Both.
I'll be tempted to say mostly from God, but the reality is that it's actually mostly from the devil.
For him, he's trying his best to make you disobey God and compromise.

Let me try and visualize.

God sends a person (John) to preach to the management of a club at closing hours and the Holy Spirit makes it clear that he shouldn't accept anything from them, like money or drink.
The devil goes ahead and creates a scheme , he reminds God of when John stole the 5k and tell God that because if this, he wants to make John to lose his money. So God approves this as part of the punishment for John's theft.

Now John loses his money in the bus while going to the club to preach and only has enough money to pay hos way coming.
John arrives and pays his fare, he now realizes that he is completely broke and helpless (just as that Lady was helpless when he stole her cash).
He doesn't remember all these, but he must teach

After teaching, the managers of the club may learn something good and decide to repent, then they offer John 1k for transport.
(Remember, he isn't meant to collect money from them. Why? Because that's dirty money. And he's also serving a punishment and must suffer sufficiently so that that sin he had committed can be forgotten.)

John will surely be tempted, the devil will say all sorts of stuff to make him accept.

But let's assume John didn't accept and ends up walking for about 6hrs to get back home.

That's a classic example of Baptism Of Fire. You're suffering because you chose to obey God.
In all that, you just served the punishment for the other sin you committed.

But how do you know that your suffering is making you worthy of the Kingdom Of God? Well, first thing is to clear yourself from sinful acts, live in God, live for God, walk in His light, then if anything happens, He'll let you understand why. Sooner or later.

preciousee17:

Oh I see the point

But somehow, that place seems to be talking about Temptations, not Sufferings
Those are two different stuffs entirely...



For instance, in that illustration I gave, of John teaching at the club and was offered money when God already warned that he shouldn't collect.
That man offering the money was a temptation.

That scripture aims to say that God isn't the one who asked that man to offer John money, that God isn't the one who asked the man to tempt John with money.
But that temptations come someone is dragged off (by who?) and enticed according to what they desire.
John desired money and was enticed with money.
It was entirely non of God's handwork.

There's no reference to cause of suffering there, apart from the fact that when we are enticed and we sin, the sin eventually leads to death (verse 18 or so)

preciousee17:

Oh I see the point

But somehow, that place seems to be talking about Temptations, not Sufferings
Those are two different stuffs entirely...



For instance, in that illustration I gave, of John teaching at the club and was offered money when God already warned that he shouldn't collect.
That man offering the money was a temptation.

That scripture aims to say that God isn't the one who asked that man to offer John money, that God isn't the one who asked the man to tempt John with money.
But that temptations come someone is dragged off (by who?) and enticed according to what they desire.
John desired money and was enticed with money.
It was entirely non of God's handwork.

There's no reference to cause of suffering there, apart from the fact that when we are enticed and we sin, the sin eventually leads to death (verse 18 or so)

preciousee17:

Keep on ranting...

jaephoenix:

So why do newborn babies have cancers etc?

Michael547:
that is why I said you should read verse 12 with it to get the context of the word temptation as used in that verse. The word temptation as used in that verse refers to suffering or trials that a Christian has to endure to get the crown of life. Now does the temptation or trial comes from God? Verse 13 gives the answer. What is the answer?

preciousee17:


Both.
I'll be tempted to say mostly from God, but the reality is that it's actually mostly from the devil.
For him, he's trying his best to make you disobey God and compromise.

Let me try and visualize.

God sends a person (John) to preach to the management of a club at closing hours and the Holy Spirit makes it clear that he shouldn't accept anything from them, like money or drink.
The devil goes ahead and creates a scheme, he reminds God of when John stole the 5k and tell God that because if this, he wants to make John to lose his money. So God approves this as part of the punishment for John's theft.

Now John loses his money in the bus while going to the club to preach and only has enough money to pay hos way coming.
John arrives and pays his fare, he now realizes that he is completely broke and helpless (just as that Lady was helpless when he stole her cash).
He doesn't remember all these, but he must teach

After teaching, the managers of the club may learn something good and decide to repent, then they offer John 1k for transport.
(Remember, he isn't meant to collect money from them. Why? Because that's dirty money. And he's also serving a punishment and must suffer sufficiently so that that sin he had committed can be forgotten.)

John will surely be tempted, the devil will say all sorts of stuff to make him accept.

But let's assume John didn't accept and ends up walking for about 6hrs to get back home.

That's a classic example of Baptism Of Fire. You're suffering because you chose to obey God.
In all that, you just served the punishment for the other sin you committed.

But how do you know that your suffering is making you worthy of the Kingdom Of God? Well, first thing is to clear yourself from sinful acts, live in God, live for God, walk in His light, then if anything happens, He'll let you understand why. Sooner or later.

preciousee17:


I think in my previous response, my many words destroyed the point.
The temptations come from the devil obviously according to the scriptures.

But you are trying to imply that the word temptation = sufferings...
Open a concordance at that word, you'll see that it literally means to test... Not to suffer.

So yes, that place talks about the origin of temptations, but not of sufferings

Michael547:

I asked you where does the suffering come from that makes us worthy of the kingdom, and you replied it comes from both God and the devil. So how do we connect your answer to James 1: 12, 13. Because James 1:12 says the temptation I endure to get the crown of life does not come from God. So please explain it in a simple way. Remember you previously said too that anything and everything that happens is approved by God which would include the temptations of the devil.

preciousee17:


Yes, I still stand on what I've said.
The only thing now is that you are bringing an interpretation for the word Temptation in the book of James, and I'm saying your interpretation is wrong.
I'm saying that temptations do not mean suffering, they are two different words.

Michael547:

Ok lets go by your interpretation....who sends the devil to tempt people to make them worthy of the crown?

Myer:


I'm so blessed to come across your thread. This is the truest and most humbling Truth.
Grace multiplied to you.

preciousee17:


Amen. And to you as well.

You can scavenge through my topics to see if anything there sounds useful.

preciousee17:


Sorry sir, but I'm afraid the mind never dies.
Your mind is your Soul, it's Spirit-like. Spirits don't die.

If you're a Christian, check the story of Prophet Samuel whose Soul was summoned from the grave by Paul, and he still remembered things properly.

Also make reference to the Transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain where He was found speaking to Moses and Elijah, people who had died for ages.

Any other Bible passage to uphold your point?

This scripture, I think you need to explain to me how you understand it. Cos after reading above and below, especially verse 19, it is understood that according to the Paul, If anybody accepts to walk with Christ, to live for Christ, then that person's previous sins and other lifestyle has been forgotten (forgiven) and everything starts afresh for the person. All things become new.

preciousee17:


You know, there's something that someone said, I completed it.

If God actually exists, exactly as the Bible depicts.
Atheists can never make a valid argument without:
• Blaming God for the actions of man.
• Complaining to God for creating them.
• Trying to teach God how to behave, forgetting that God is more than a thousand times smarter and more complex than you are.

I always thought of this, every religion has a good and bad. God and the devil.
Every religion has Truth that they follow, and lies that their devil wants them to follow.

Atheists just assume that there's good and bad, (morally).
And they believe in science as their truth, but they fail to dig up the lies in science.
As atheists, you all should be the ones who dig the deepest into conspiracy theories, especially as it relates to science.

Go and dig up conspiracies for sometime. Your fellow atheists will prove to you that cancer and a whole bundle of famous serious diseases were never a mistake — all deliberate actions of man.

I believe my response to the other calm guy has any answer you need.
Keep on blaming God for actions of men.

preciousee17:


Yes, I still stand on what I've said.
The only thing now is that you are bringing an interpretation for the word Temptation in the book of James, and I'm saying your interpretation is wrong.
I'm saying that temptations do not mean suffering, they are two different words.

paxonel:
understand the meaning of the word MIND.
According to Oxford dictionary it refers to the mental consciousness of the body in relation to the environment. That means it is part of the body and not part of the spirit.


The mind is located in the brain, it is centre of consciousness. And when the body dies, the mind siezed to be conscious of anything.

Compare that to the soul which is the total self of person(his body + his spirit)

Since the mind is part of the body, the mind dies with the body, but the spirit lives on.

well, i don't think that story applies to the new covenant in Christ where there is resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

When you read 1 Corinthians 15 from 35 down, you will notice that we will be given new body when we resurrect as Christians.

In the old testament that wasn't so because Christ has not been crucified at that time talkless of resurrection.
So, it was possible then, that Samuel could remember since he wasn't given a new body neither was he resurrected.

New body implies that old things have passed away. 2 Corinthians 5:17
still the same thing.

They all happened before Christ was crucified and were the shadow of things to come, and not the real thing.
These Moses and Elijah never saw resurrection, hence the least person in God's kingdom is greater than them.
they are everywhere in the new testament especially Jesus parables.
walking or living for Christ there implies believing in Christ for eternal life. John 3:16
And eternal life implies resurrection in the last day.
Remember, 1 Corinthians 15 suggest that our body will be changed when we resurrect.
So 2 Corinthians 5:17 saying old things are passed away : it is strictly saying that our old body will pass away the day we die. And we will resurrect with a new body thereby making us a new creature.

Do you see a new born baby?
He has no memory or experience whatsoever unlike Samuels memory after he had died.

Now that is a new creature

preciousee17:

Infact, at certain points, the same word for Soul, ψυχή in Greek and נפשׁ in Hebrew is also translated as Mind.

It's an extensive Word, not limited to consciousness.
(At least, according to the Bible [//quote]

Every scripture that mentioned the word MIND points to consciousness.

For instance,

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do MIND the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Meaning, they that after the flesh are conscious of the things of the flesh, and they that after the spirit are conscious of the things of the spirit.

So, the mind is still limited to consciousness in the context of religion, not just only dictionary. Or if you have any contrary scripture please quote it here.
[quote]
I'm afraid resurrection of the dead didn't start from the 'new covenant

Infact, the Pharisees believed in resurrection of the dead before Jesus came.
It was the Sadducees who didn't believe this. Even though it was a given fact.
The same way Abraham was somehow raised from the dead and even had a small territory somewhere in heaven, that's the same way Paul was raised after Jesus died.
The only difference is that the rules and regulations

Did you notice that the Scriptures stressed that it is the body that will be changed? Not the Soul.
Remember, the Bible describes the body as a vessel that contains the Soul and Spirit.
So according to Corinthians, this vessel will be changed.

I've already said that this Scripture was referring to sin.

That when we come to Christ, our previous lifestyle of sin are ignored and we are starting all afresh.

“So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, that person is a new creation: The old has gone, the new is here!”
2 Corinthians 5:16‭-‬17

Have you seen the buildup that led to that statement?
Have you realized that it's present tense? He is a new creation.
Not, he will be a new creation.
Old things have passed away, not, old things will pass away...

That scripture was all about repentance,

Why bringing a new born baby (new body and soul) into a discussion that talks about new body only?

Well here are my questions, and my end of replies...

Do you mean that after everything we've gone through on Earth, we'll just forget it all when we are in Heaven?

What you are implying is that life for us ends here in Earth