Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? - Religion (2) - Nairaland
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| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Veecruz: 2:07pm On Mar 19 |
FxMasterz: The Law IS THE COVENANT! (Note! You have moved post from not seeing that the old covenant Laws which was on tables of stone that is being transferred and transplanted into our hearts to continue there as declared by Jeremiah 31:33 to this new argumrent where.you dont know that the Law is The Covenant) You obviously dont know that a covenant means Agreement (contract) betwern the Agreeing parties. covenant " a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action". And every Agreement (covenant) must always have LAWS called terms of Agreement or Rules of Engagement. And it must have the Duties/Obligations (Laws. again) of the parties agreeing exactly like your Tenancy Agreement, Record Label Contracts, Sponsorship Contracts etc. And that Agreement and signing ceremony is what you see took place in Mount Sinai in Exodus 19 when God first Spoke it, then got Moses to Write it down and repeat it to the people for them to Agree. And the people gave their agreement and consent to it. So, you are wrong yet again! |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by FxMasterz: 2:27pm On Mar 19 |
Veecruz: You're contradicting the scriptures. I told you clearly that the law of the old covenant is encapsulated in the Royal Law. The law of love. Agreements can be abrogated. A second agreement can have components of the abrogated agreement. That does not make the former agreement eternally active. The New Testament is an upgrade of the Old. That's why it is called a Better covenant. It retains some components of the old, that doesn't make the old eternal. If the old is eternal, then it's no longer old. The law is written on our hearts, not the covenant. The covenant is old, but the law of the covenant has given way to the Royal Law and Grace. In the Old Testament, there was no grace. There was just law. A new covenant was enacted to incorporate law and grace. It is completely different from the old. Both covenants don't run concurrently. The Old gave way to the New because the New contains important components of the Old, as well as additions such as Grace, the sacrifices of Christ and the Presence of the Holy Ghost. The Blood of Jesus is the token of the New Covenant, not the blood of lambs. As long as the Old Covenant is no longer being renewed yearly with the blood of animals, the Old Covenant ceases to be active. Animal blood is the token, the emblem of the Old Covenant. Without the emblem, the covenant ceases. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Veecruz: 4:20pm On Mar 19 |
FxMasterz: Now, you are changing post yet again. First, you did not know that The Law and old covenants was transferred from the Stone to our hearts. Then, you still changed post and did not know that The Law is the Covenant! And now, yet again you are still changing post raising fresh off point issues and even none issues. Clearly, your running from place to.place shows how not founded and not grounded your opinions on this issue are WHEREAS, TRUTH IS STABLE. And it is unreasonable that i should follow you to every ground you run to, so clearly, you are wrong and your oipnion is baseless FxMasterz: Agreements in deed can be cancelled but was this Agreement cancelled? Never Rather, God tranferred it from be the Stone to the hearts of men as Jeremaiah 31:33 clearly, tells us, so you are wrong. God even made it impossible for you or anyone to break it saying 20 Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 25 Thus saith the Lord; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them. And no one has stopped the day nor the night from coming according to their season, therefore no.one broken themself free from the covenant. So as i have said, you are very very wrong! FxMasterz: And that is what i.am trying to get you to see, it is both old and new. It is old because it is indeed old but the party who agreed to it threw it away and discarded it like a bad tenant. But, the prophets tried unsuccesfully to bringi it back and then.finally, The LORD, JESUS CHRIST brought it back AND ATTACHED HIMSELF TO IT saying Jeremaiah 31: 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, And we all know that He Who was called Jesus Christ, is The LORD! So, you are very wrong, so do take correction and err not! |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by FxMasterz: 5:02pm On Mar 19 |
Veecruz: Everything I said in this post regarding the Royal Law and a few others are things I have already mentioned in my previous posts. So, what am I changing? What is it that I do not know that I am just now knowing? What post have I changed? Can you make a comparative analysis of my posts to point out what I've changed? You keep arguing against the scriptures when the scriptures pointed out that the Old Testament is already obsolete. You read that clearly from Hebrews 8. Do you prefer your own frail logic or God's Word? You need to decide. There's nowhere in the Bible where the Law is referred to as the covenant. A written agreement or law does not become a covenant without a seal. The Blood of animals was the seal of the Old Covenant. The Blood of Jesus is the seal of the New. I have told you that the Old Covenant has the law as one of its components. The Law alone does not make up the covenant. Otherwise any nation that copies the 10 commandments would be regarded as a nation in covenant with the God of Israel. You and I know that this is impossible. Paul made it clear that the law itself was a shadow: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." - Colossians 2:15-16. Now, an agreement is not a covenant without its seal. And the fact that a component of some former agreement is carried over into a new agreement does not mean that the former agreement still holds. Don't you remember that the Old Covenant was to be renewed yearly with sacrifices? Don't you know that the absence of that renewal means the covenant is broken? God has abrogated the Old Covenant in favour of the New. Even if you decide to renew the Old Covenant with a sacrifice of animals, you're just wasting your time. God would not respect such a sacrifice because that covenant is already obsolete. In summary, let me tell you again that the law is not the covenant. The covenant has several components which includes the law, the prophets, the tokens or seal or emblems. Without all these, there's no covenant. Ordinary agreement without a seal is no agreement. Ordinary law without its seal is no covenant. The transferring of the law into the new covenant does not make the old covenant active. The same way the transferring of some components of the old Nigerian constitutions into the the new constitution does not make the old constitution active. You can't use the Old Constitution of Nigeria to argue in court even though some of its components are transferred into the New Constitution. In the New Testament, we only know Christ the crucified. Trying to resurrect the Old covenant was a practice for which Paul rebuked the Galatian Church, calling them "Oh foolish Galatians." 1 Like |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Veecruz: 5:37pm On Mar 19 |
FxMasterz: It was unnecassary and irrelevant as it was not the issue of argument, so it was Off Point! FxMasterz: I did not argue against the scripture, i argued against you and against your understanding of what the scripture CLEARLY SAID! FxMasterz: Another new post! Every reasonable person knows that a Covenant means Laws for there is no covenant without Law. FxMasterz: And yet another new post. Seal, means signing or signsture. So, the unsigned (unsealed) Agreement with your Fiancee to.be faithful and just is not a covenant, eh? If it is so, then why do you complain she is cheating after.all, your covenant is unsealed? Please, no road here besides, its off point. FxMasterz: As already stated a covenant means Law. FxMasterz: Because, Isreal cast it aside and disregarded it, what else would happen to a thing that has been thrown aside? As is already clear, your opinion is baseless which is why you are just moving from post to post raising fresh issues in a bid to find a place to stand and it is not reasonable that i follow you everywhere you run to. So without a doubt, you can see that your opinions here are unfounded and do not stand,. So take correction for you are in great error. Bye |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by FxMasterz: 7:03pm On Mar 19 |
[quote author=Veecruz post=129007038] It was unnecassary and irrelevant as it was not the issue of argument, so it was Off Point!Of course it was necessary except you do not understand what the Royal Law is. The Royal Law are the two Love commandments of the Old Testament Law. The New Covenant stands on these two laws. So, what's offpoint about that? I did not argue against the scripture, i argued against you and against your understanding of what the scripture CLEARLY SAID! Of course you did. The scriptures clearly say the Old Testament is obsolete and vanished away, you said it's not. Humble yourself before the Word of God and take corrections. Another new post! What's new about the post giving you a broader explanation for more understanding? Now, you seem to be coming out. There's no covenant without a law as you said. That means the covenant is clearly not the law. They're two separate entities that could be found together. There can be no covenant without a law but there can be a law without a covenant. Hope that's clear? A covenant is necessarily a law but a law is not necessarily a covenant. The Old Testament is currently a Law without a covenant. And yet another new post. So, what's the "another post" you're talking about? Yeah, there's no covenant binding you with your fiancee. That's why you can go your separate ways without any issues. The law of faithfulness between the two of you is just mutual respect borne out of fidelity. That's a law without a covenant. No covenant between unmarried people even though there could be agreements. No seal. No signature. The agreements are not covenants until a seal is introduced. Informal agreements are not covenants. As already stated a covenant means Law.As already proven, a covenant means law only because there's a law attached to it. That is, roles each party in the covenant must play for the covenant to remain active. Mutual responsibilities. These roles and responsibilities are the laws. "if you do this or that, I will do this and that " Recap: A covenant is a law because it always comes with a law of roles for all parties of the covenant, but a law is not a covenant without its seal of agreement between all parties involved. Because, Isreal cast it aside and disregarded it, what else would happen to a thing that has been thrown aside? Not true. Not because Israel cast it aside. That's unscriptural. God's original plan was Jesus from the beginning. Infact, the Bible calls Him "The Lamb slain from the beginning of the world." - Revelation 5:9. Jesus , and by extension, the New Covenant has been God's plan of salvation from the beginning of the world. The Law was just a school master that tutored us until Christ came as we saw in Galatians 3. After Christ came, the tutor was done away with. You read that clearly in the book of Galatians 3:24 - 25: "Wherefore THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ... But after that faith is come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOLMASTER." But according to you, we're still under the schoolmaster. Should we believe you or the Scriptures? Are your opinions higher than the Word of God? As is already clear, your opinion is baseless which is why you are just moving from post to post raising fresh issues in a bid to find a place to stand and it is not reasonable that i follow you everywhere you run to. So without a doubt, you can see that your opinions here are unfounded and do not stand,. So take correction for you are in great error. Bye Those are no my opinions. God forbid that I should hold my opinion against the Word of God. You're the one whose opinions are baseless. I have no opinion. I'm just telling you what the scriptures say by quoting the scriptures themselves. No fresh issues were raised. New explanations are not fresh issues. If previous explanations are not understood, then, new explanations can be provided to drive in understanding. 1. I have established from the scriptures that the Old Testament is obsolete: Hebrews 8:13. "In that He says, "A new covenant, " He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." The scriptures say it is obsolete, not me. Please check the dictionary for a broader and indepth meaning of the word 'obsolete'. I don't expect you to keep arguing after seeing this scripture. 2. I have established that the Old Testament needs yearly renewal. If you think the old Testament is still active, then, I admonish you to renew it yearly with the blood of animals. 3. I have established that the 2 laws of love are a component of the Old Testament which we find in the New. These components do not necessarily mean the old is still active just as the old Nigerian constitutions do not remain active just because some of their components are in the new. 4. I have established that a law cannot necessarily be a covenant but a covenant can be a law. 5. I have established that even though the old covenant has some of its law components transferred into our hearts, it does not render it active. The New Covenant incorporates some components of the old covenant with its own new features. 6. I have established that God is no longer interested in the blood of animals which is the seal of the old covenant. The Blood of Jesus, which is the seal of the New Covenant is the only seal that holds value in heaven, making the old covenant of no value. 7. I have established that the New Covenant is the everlasting covenant promised . The Old covenant was temporal and has been done away with according to the scriptures." A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13. 8. I have established that Aaron and his levitical priesthood which were the mediators of the old covenant have had their priesthood terminated. The High Priest of the New Testament, which is the Lord Jesus is the only recognized High Priests in heaven. And He is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Not of the Old), according to the scriptures: "[b[In this manner, Jesus became the “mediator of the new covenant[/b]” Hebrews 12:24. The Old Testament cannot remain active in the absence of its high priest and seal. Note: God's covenant with Day and Night is not the same as the covenant God had with Israel, should we look into this scripture together if it's causing confusion? Jesus the Lord didn't attach any Old Covenant to Himself. The scriptures already said the Old Testament was a schoolmaster and a shadow. It was just a tentative arrangement made by God with Israel pending the arrival of Christ. The New Covenant was the plan of God from the beginning, even before the fall of man. God who foreknew man's fall already made the provision for restoration ahead of time. The Old Testament activities down to the emergence of the New Testament dispensation were pre-ordained processes of God. The endgame is the salvation of the whole world through Jesus our Lord. The Old Testament was a mere shadow. The New Covenant is the real deal. Should we now abandon the Word of God and listen to Veecruz? God forbid! 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Veecruz: 9:46am On Mar 20 |
FxMasterz: It is off point because we are not arguing on whether The Law is love or not, so off point. FxMasterz: And i showed you that The Law was put inside you and i and all of us, so how can it vanish away? And i also showed you that The Law was discarded, and God tried bringing it back by sending Messengers including His Son, so does that not tell you how abandoned it was? You could not even counter any of them rather you showed how groundless you are and how your grounds are sinking sands by moving from place to place whenever i sink your ground, like a homeless person. So you accept correction and stand on a Rock that Never Sinks! FxMasterz: Correct! And as you rightly have said, we can live with no covenant, but is there a time that there was never a Law? FxMasterz: Bottomline, no sealing (signature) yet you have a covenant of Fidelity. Innformal covwnants are not covenants, yet you sue on it, have people arrested, prosecuted and punished for its breach. Please, dont speak stupidly. If you had no covenant, you would never sue or arrest people based on your so called informal covenants FxMasterz: So, Jesus Saying For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Is unscriptural? FxMasterz: Isreal threw rubbished it and threw it away, and God several times and with jesus still brought it back. And Jesus even declared that even if the world ends, they would never end, yet, here you are trying to kill iit and pass it away, JUST LIKE ISREAL DID! I just pity you. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by FxMasterz: 1:32pm On Mar 20 |
[quote author=Veecruz post=129016420] It is off point because we are not arguing on whether The Law is love or not, so off point.You clearly don't get the point. The point is that only two components of the Law which you claimed was transferred into our hearts are relevant in the New Testament. These two commandments are the Royal Law upon which the New Covenant stands. The entire Old Covenant law was not transferred. These two laws incorporate more than just the old testament laws. And i showed you that The Law was put inside you and i and all of us, so how can it vanish away?Are you now querying the scriptures? Was I the one who said it vanished away? In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. - Hebrews 8:13 Can you read it yourself? I have quoted this scripture and several others to you times without number. And i also showed you that The Law was discarded, and God tried bringing it back by sending Messengers including His Son, so does that not tell you how abandoned it was? You could not even counter any of them rather you showed how groundless you are and how your grounds are sinking sands by moving from place to place whenever i sink your ground, like a homeless person. So you accept correction and stand on a Rock that Never Sinks! You showed me nothing. I have shown you from scripture that God never intended the old testament to run forever. The Old Testament was a shadow of the New Testament. Ever before the Old Testament was founded, Jesus was already in God's plan of salvation. I showed you from scripture that He is called the lamb of God slain from the beginiing of the world: Revelation 13:8 And all men worshipped it, that dwell in earth, whose names be not written in the book of life of the lamb, that was slain from the beginning of the world. I also showed you that the law was just a schoolmaster that was asked to hold sway until Christ came, and after Christ, it was entirely discarded according to the scriptures: Galatians 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. May the Lord Give You Understanding. Correct!There's no such thing as a covenant of fidelity among unmarried people. There is a law of fidelity only. There's no covenant attached. Innformal covwnants are not covenants, yet you sue on it, have people arrested, prosecuted and punished for its breach. Please, dont speak stupidly. If you had no covenant, you would never sue or arrest people based on your so called informal covenants.No one sues on informal laws. Unmarried couples cannot sue one another for any breach. Even though they have a law of fidelity running between them, their cases would not be heard in court. Accusing me of speaking stupidly? I know it's just a matter of time. You would soon show the son of whom you are. So, Jesus Saying For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Jesus at the time was asking them to uphold the law of Moses which was still in force. The New Covenant dispensation had not begun. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. All these Jesus said before the New Covenant came into force. Even in the new covenant, God still has laws that are refined, much broader and more perfection oriented than the old testament laws. Did you hear how Jesus redefined some Old Testament Laws? Mathew 5:20-22 " For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kil; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Can you see that the New Covenant Law goes beyond a mere "Thou shalt not kill?" Mathew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Can you see that the New Covenant Law goes beyond a mere "Thou shalt not commit adultery?" How can anyone not see that the New Covenant is not the same as the Old? John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another." Luke 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. We have an entirely new covenant in His blood. We have no other covenant. There is a redefined Old Testaments law written in our hearts, but the covenant relating to that law is the New Covenant. We don't relate to that law on the basis of the Old Covenant. We don't have to kill animals or wait on the levitical priesthood to remain in tune with God. These were for the Old covenant. In this New Covenant, the Blood of Jesus alone, and the power of the Holy Ghost is enough. Isreal threw rubbished it and threw it away, and God several times and with jesus still brought it back. And Jesus even declared that even if the world ends, they would never end, yet, here you are trying to kill iit and pass it away, JUST LIKE ISREAL DID! I just pity you. No one is trying to kill anything or pass anything away. God was trying to re-establish the Old Testament with the Israelites while its dispensation was still running. God is a dispensational God. As soon as its dispensation expired, the Old Testament has passed away. Again this is the scripture: Hebrews 8:13 "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. By calling this covenant 'new,' He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." You argue with the Scriptures. You deny them as you wish. Once again, may the Lord give you understanding. A comparison was made between the Old Covenant and the New in Hebrews 8 in relation to the priesthood of both covenants. These are deep things. Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. Think deeply about the above scripture. Do you think the Better covenant and the problematic covenant are still running together? You need to read the entire chapter 8 to get the entire message passed. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Veecruz: 4:14pm On Mar 20 |
FxMasterz: The point is, this is not the argument. The argument is The Law was transferred from the stone into our hearts. So as long as man lives, The Law lives, therefore, you lie to say it was abolished whereas, it lives with and in us. FxMasterz: I am querying you to go back and re-enquire what Paul meant when he said Hebrews 8:13, which i have told you means because they LAYED IT ASIDE, FULLY REJECTED IT AND RENDERED IT OF NO EFFECT! When a thing is discarded will it not decay and get old and ready to vanish? Are you now querying the scriptures? Was I the one who said it vanished away? |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by FxMasterz: 5:55pm On Mar 20 |
[quote author=Veecruz post=129023175][/quote] The point is, this is not the argument. The argument is The Law was transferred from the stone into our hearts. So as long as man lives, The Law lives, therefore, you lie to say it was abolished whereas, it lives with and in us. I never said the law was abolished. I said the covenant was abolished. Your inability to separate the law from the covenant is the only reason why you're misinterpreting scriptures. My position is that the New Covenant Law retains some components of the Old Testament Law. However, in the New Testament, we're not not under the Law but under Grace. We're talking about the Old Covenant and not the law that is attached to it. The Old Covenant has expired even though some components of its law remains. This has been my stand from the beginning. But this what the scriptures say to New Covenant saints: Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." The Old Covenant Law is the law of sin and death. If Christ's New Covenant Law of the Spirit of Life has made us free from the Old Covenant Law of sin and death, of what use any more is the Old Covenant and its law to us? The scripture explicitly says we're free from the Old Covenant Law. It's covenant is not binding on us. It has expired. I am querying you to go back and re-enquire what Paul meant when he said Hebrews 8:13, which i have told you means because they LAYED IT ASIDE, FULLY REJECTED IT AND RENDERED IT OF NO EFFECT! Then if it's of no effect, what makes it eternal? In what way is it still alive? A covenant would be in effect if it's still alive. Only dead covenants are of no effect. But Paul never said they laid it aside. Do you want to add to the word of God? Paul said the covenant waxed old. That is to say, its dispensation expired and therefore, it had to give way to the New. Give me a scripture that says they laid the covenant aside. We won't be taking your word as authority against the Bible. We're talking about what Paul said, not what Paul meant. His message was loud and clear. Even if humans have laid a covenant aside, as long as its dispensation is still active, God would continue to hold true to His own terms, and the humans would continue to bear responsibility for breaking the covenant. But there's no responsibility for the Old Covenant anymore for both parties because its dead. For example, God is not going to punish anyone for not offering animal sacrifices today because the covenant that the sacrifices represent has already expired. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Veecruz: 6:24pm On Mar 21 |
FxMasterz: And I am telling you that The Law is The Covenant and the Covenant is The Law. FxMasterz: 2 Kings 17:7-15 For [so] it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, Kings 2 17:8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel Kings 2 17:15 And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that [were] round about them, [concerning] whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them. Note Law (statute) and covenant is together. Kings 2 18:12 Because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God, but transgressed his covenant, [AND ALL] that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded,AND WOULD NOT HEAR [THEM], NOR DO [THEM]. [quote author=FxMasterz post=129024691]For example, God is not going to punish anyone for not offering animal sacrifices today because the covenant that the sacrifices represent has already expired. If you have truly read your bible you would have seen that you are not the one who is to offer burnt offerings but the job of Levites, the holy priests of God. But if you had truly read your bible you would have seen that they were no more Holy and had become corrupt and very filthy like the people, so who is going to save the people from their sins, since all are unholy? Now you see why Christ came with the updated and upgraded covenant of Sacrifice and forgiveness and Remission of sins ONLY, Whi remained Holy and Undefiled, AS COMMANDED BY THE LAW. And no one anywhere could corrupt nor defile Him, which is what Paul explained but you don't get it because you did not read the bible very well to understand what was going on and why God did all we have seen Him Do! Rather you choose to follow the popular opinion that lets you sleep comfortably. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by FxMasterz: 7:07pm On Mar 21 |
[quote author=Veecruz post=129041426] And I am telling you that The Law is The Covenant and the Covenant is The Law. Then answer this question: If a nation adopts the laws of Moses as their national law, does that make them to be in covenant with God? If you say the law is the covenant, then any nation that adopts the law is in an automatic covenant with God. Waiting for your answer. 2 Kings 17:7-15If this is the rejection you're talking about, then you don't understand this scripture. Every sinner is seen as someone who has rejected God and His laws. That's the context of these verses. It is a form of rebellion. God does not pamper rebellions people. He punishes them. It is very demeaning to say that God abandoned a covenant because the people rejected it. God doesn't ever bend for man. That's impossible. This is what God says: Psalm 89:4 "My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." Except the duration of the covenant expires, God would remain through to His covenants. He won't create another covenant just because a generation rejected it. You're a applying logic to spiritual issues without minding what God said by Himself. God made it explicitly clear that the New Covenant waxed old, it decayed and then became obsolete. God has always had the New Covenant in plan. The Old Testament and its Laws was just a schoolmaster to guide us pending the arrival of Christ. This is the word of God and not human logic. Human logic cannot replace God's Word. Note Law (statute) and covenant is together. This scripture quoted out by you further gives credence to my position. I told you that there can be a law without a covenant but there can be no covenant without a law. That's why that scripture says, they rejected His status and His covenant. The statue is still a separate entity from the covenant, so the conjunction 'and had to be used. The husband is one with his wife but the husband is not the wife, and the wife is not the husband. So, you refer to them as husband and wife because they're two separate entities. I hope you now understand? The word 'and' is a conjunction that is used to join two separate entities together in communication. If the statutes where the same as the covenant, there'll be no need for the statement 'statuse' and 'covenant'. ' it would be either 'status' or 'covenant'. No 'and'. The covenant is not same as the law. They're separate entities. Kings 2 18:12 In Deuteronomy 28, God already told them the repercussion of following the above actions. It is a recipe of curses and total rejection of the nation as well of harrowing captivity. Not the termination of the covenant. You make God a weak God if God abandons a covenant just because mortal men rejected it. Is that not demeaning? I have many scriptures running through my mind right now by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost regarding the terminal nature of the Old Testament. I'm ready to take you into new levels of biblical exegesis on this matter so that the truth can be established by the Word of God, and not by human logic. "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." - 1 Corinthians 2:5. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Veecruz: 8:08pm On Mar 21 |
FxMasterz: Did you not read that through Abraham and THAT COVENANT, ALL NATIONS, will be blessed? Unfortunately, Abraham's descendants threw it away and tried running away from it and did everything for God to be angry and take it away. Rather, God deepened it and made it worse for them (better for other nations) since they wanted it gone. FxMasterz: See how you are behaving stiff-necked exactly like Israel. You clearly see that it is Written "they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers. they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God, but transgressed his covenant, [AND ALL] that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded,AND WOULD NOT HEAR [THEM], NOR DO [THEM]. And you are talking about how everyone is guilty of sin? Did David not personally undersign to keep the covenant and Laws even when Saul and Israel was not? Just say you cannot bear to hear the information I have given you in proof of how greatly wrong you are. FxMasterz: Are we talking about the repercussions God told them? Off point! Clearly you do not have any valid and relevant thing to say to the issue at hand, which is what I wanted to prove to you FOR YOU WERE WRONG! And fyi I argue because I want to learn and be absolutely sure I am right and without error, so it not dick measurement contest, it is my life or death and I don't care about you or anyone especially as you people never care for yourselves. So, this is me just looking out for me especially as I know if there are errors either in my case or yours, I know reasonable and right minded people will point it and thus, I will be properly guided, So arguing with you or anyone here is not about you! As the bible has righly pointed out, if you are foolish you are foolish for yourself and vice versa. Bye |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by FxMasterz: 9:01pm On Mar 21 |
Veecruz: False! Through Abraham and his Seed (Christ), all nations shall be blessed. Not through that covenant. Quote the scriptures that says all nations would be blessed through the Old Covenant. Should you lie against the Word of God for the sake of winning an argument? Although this assertion of yours is a gross misrepresentatiion of God's Word, it still does not answer the question asked. I'll ask the question again: If any nation adopts the laws of Moses, does that bring such a nation into a covenant with God? It's one thing to argue the scriptures in order to uncover truth. It's another thing to argue the scriptures just in order to win an argument. Arguing the scriptures to win an argument is sin. God forbid that I should ever do such. I'll stand for the truth of scripture anytime any day. It seems you just want to win an argument. You don't have any scripture in your favor, yet you're getting agitated because I didn't buy your unscriptural logic. Unfortunately, Abraham's descendants threw it away and tried running away from it and did everything for God to be angry and take it away. Rather, God deepened it and made it worse for them (better for other nations) since they wanted it gone.Is that what God said? Where did God say He created a New Covenant because Abraham's descendants threw the old away and wanted it gone? This is absolutely false. Show us the scripture! You think you can add your own logic to the Word of God? The children of Israel rejected the covenant, okay, let's agree for your sake. Meanwhile we do not forget that the Old Covenant was still strongly observed in Israel even in the days of the Lord Jesus. Now, tell us where God said He created a New Covenant because the children of Abraham rejected the Old. I've given you a firm rebuttal on this already. You're saying what you think. The scriptures say the covenant waxed old. God promised a New Covenant ever before the Old expired. The Old covenant had not even begun when God told Abraham about his seed (Christ) through whom the whole world would be blessed. The people of Israel have not even been created before God already had a Lamb He slew in the spirit realm from the beginning of the world. All these are scriptures. Not logic. I've quoted them to you severally, but you remained adamant because you want to win an argument. Not because you want the truth of God's word to prevail. Perhaps you don't understand. If the Lamb had been slain before the beginning of the world ( Revelation 13:8 ) , then, that means the Old testament which was introduced after the lamb was slain would still have been discarded whether the people rejected it or not. That's because God already had a future plan of a spiritual Lamb whose covenant would terminate the Mosaic covenant. See how you are behaving stiff-necked exactly like Israel. You clearly see that it is Written "they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers. You're the one behaving stiff-necked against the Word of God while I behave stiff necked against your unscriptural logic. Now, If they rejected the covenant, does that become binding on God to reject it too? Even the logic of this logic is not balanced. Are you saying God would bend His laws because of people? That's your logic anyway but Did the scriptures say so? Did the scriptures say that God instituted a new covenant because the people rejected it? You were the one giving God your own reasons why God instituted the New Covenant. God never said that! The scriptures say that the New Testament came because the Old testament was obsolete! That's loud and clear! Now, tell me the scriptures that explicitly states that God instituted the New covenant because the people rejected the old. Do it the same way I have given you the scriptures that tell you clearly that God terminated the Old Testament because it expired. I gave you the scriptures that say the Old Covenant was just a schoolmaster that was used tentatively for guidance before the coming of the Real Guide - Jesus. Hebrews 8:13 and Galatians 3:24. God gave His reasons but you want us to reject God's reasons and take your own logic! Who are you to impose your reasons against the declared Word of God? I'm waiting for you to show me the scriptures where God explicitly stated that the New Covenant came into being because the people rejected the Old. Read Romans 7 where Paul compared a dead husband (Old Testament) to a living wife (The Church). Paul gave a lengthy explanation in that chapter on how a wife is released from the covenant of her dead husband the same way the church is released from the Law of the dead Covenant. This position is consistent with all the scriptures. [b]And you are talking about how everyone is guilty of sin? [/b]Did David not personally undersign to keep the covenant and Laws even when Saul and Israel was not? Would you tell me where I spoke about everyone being guilty of sin? Quote me in that post. If you don't understand what I said in that post, how would you understand the entire post, and by extension the Word of Life? I've seen you misquoting me several times but I just ignored. But since you have the audacity to call a fellow brother stiff-necked, I need to explicitly show you your flaws. In summary, what I said in that post is that sin is rebellion - a rejection of God's laws and covenant. The context of the scriptures you quoted regarding the rejection of the covenant is applicable to all sinners. All sinners have rejected God and His covenant. Does that then mean God would reject His covenant because men rejected it? Would God bend for men? Just say you cannot bear to hear the information I have given you in proof of how greatly wrong you are. You're clearly talking about yourself. With no scriptural proof of anything you've said, you blatantly go against the word of God to add your own incongruous meanings. You hang on what you think the Word of God means rather than what the word of God says. God would say one thing, you'll reject it and say "this is what He meant". Who interprets the Word of God like that? Giving self-fabricated meanings to explicitly declared statements of scripture? I have shown you from the scriptures that God said the Old Testament is obsolete. God said it was a Schoolmaster only used for men pending the coming of Christ. God said it clearly that it waxed old and expired. God said the new covenant is a better covenant established on better promises. God said the Lamb had already being slain before the world the began, hence the Old testament was not the real deal. It was a tentative arrangement pending the manifestation of the slain Lamb among men. All these are explicitly and clearly written in the Word of God. Should I still quote the scriptures for you again for the umpteenth time? Now, show me one scripture where God said the Old covenant is a forever covenant. One scripture that says the Old covenant is still alive today. I'm waiting. You never have just one scripture to back you up, yet you rejected the many scriptures that say the Old testament expired, is obsolete, it waxed old and vanished away, and then turn around to tag a child of God stiff-necked for rejecting your logic in favour or God's written word. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Beautifulday: 10:58am On Mar 23 |
Maximus692: Ok! So what is the name of the religion Moses handed over to the Israelites called since it's not Judaism? So Jesus lived a miserable life? Enoch and Elijah didn't die. Since they are alive till date how do you say none is qualify for eternal life why these men are still alive after so many centuries. Jesus said in Matthew 11 : 11, "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." There hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist not that no body is greater than John. Here, Jesus was referring to the prophetic. John was considered to be greater than all prophets because he was the only prophet that prophecied about Jesus and saw the fulfilment. Matthew 13: 16 - 17 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. Mosaic laws didn't make Jews children of God. A Jew doesn't need saving. What are you saving a child of God from? Let me know. A child is born not made. Through Jesus are the gentiles born into the family of God with the Jews. The law is to guild the children of God. Are you a Nigerian because you obey the laws of Nigeria? You are a Nigerian because you are born a Nigerian or naturalize. Obeying the law of Nigeria makes things easy for you but doesn't make you a citizen. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Beautifulday: 11:03am On Mar 23 |
Veecruz: Sure! They are the forerunners of the gospel. What was practiced until Jesus death was Judaism. The disciples carried the gospel. Anyone can be a Christian but it's not compulsory for the Jews to be christians. Christianity is for the gentiles. Only a Jew can bring the gentiles into their commonwealth that is why Jesus had to do it and his disciples. Can a foreigner become a Nigerian with the assistance of a Nigerian? |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Beautifulday: 11:09am On Mar 23 |
FxMasterz: Jesus was talking to the Jews that doesn't believe in God, mostly the pharisees who have corrupted the law of God to enrich themselves. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Jesus is shock in John 3: 10. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Mathew 23: 23. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Beautifulday: 11:19am On Mar 23 |
FxMasterz: There is nothing like spiritual Israel. It's a theological jargon if it's in theology. The issue is that you don't know who God is and who Israel came to be Israel. You said God has gone back on his choice of Israel? That is making God a liar and a covenant breaker. But refuse to align with you. God said, "my covenant will I not break..." One is not Israel because one is born of Israeli parents. You are Israel because you are born of Israeli parents and circumcised. An Israelite is not one because he keeps the law of Moses which is the law of the nation of Israel. No! One is an Israelite because he is born of Israeli parents and is circumcised. No matter how much of the law of Nigeria you keep, if you are not a Nigerian, you are not one. Keeping the law makes you a good citizen. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by FxMasterz: 11:38am On Mar 23 |
Beautifulday: You're ignorant of the Word my brother. I didn't say anything of my own. I only said what the scriptures declared. I read where you said there's no spiritual Israel, so I immediately saw no reason to discuss anything with you. You can argue with the scriptures if you so choose. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by vdestro: 2:27pm On Mar 23 |
Beautifulday: Is Christ is owned by the Jews or owned by God? Are the Jews a God following people or rather an Anti-God people? It is because murderers are the ones controlling a territory else you would have known that God created us all to have only one citizenship, which is human being citizenship or citizen of the world. And that is why we have a right to go to any part of the world and settle there, like Abraham left Ur to Egypt and other places as The Spirit led him. And as Abraham shows if we settle in a place for a long while, you become part of the Land. And if you have read The Law you would see that no country has a right to make borders, as we see today, not to talk of claiming another land somewhere else as its own and territory as Britain, France, America, Rome etc did (the none-lawfullness of colonialism). Thus, by Law and not by legal which is man made commands, a foreigner has a right to settle and attach to any land that allows him to attach. It is the land itself who grants what is called citizenship and not people. Which is why Obasanjo could grant Bill Clinton citizenship of Abeokuta but it is a nullity, if the land does not accept him. Hope this is not too much for you. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by vdestro: 2:42pm On Mar 23 |
FxMasterz: There is nothing like spiritual Israel. That certainly is not in the scriptures so you are speak from your own understanding and you are wrong. The most important thing about Israel and God is that you are either you are God Obedient or Anti God. And Israel is Anti-God even though God took them because of the everlasting covenant that He had with Israel's father who was God Obedient. And everlasting means "never coming to an end; eternal 2. lasting for an indefinitely long period" So it can never be abolished. And Paul did not say it was abolished. Read it again. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by FxMasterz: 2:54pm On Mar 23 |
vdestro: https://www.gotquestions.org/spiritual-Israel.html |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by vdestro: 2:57pm On Mar 23 |
Beautifulday: It's the religion of Godniality. The religion of Israel which is Judaism is a religion of Abominations and if you pay attention to the bible you would see that it started since Egypt and they never leave it go. Jeremiah 17 1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars; |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by vdestro: 3:03pm On Mar 23 |
FxMasterz: A theological creation and not a biblical fact or pronouncement. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by FxMasterz: 3:44pm On Mar 23 |
vdestro: You mean you're not an Israelite by faith in Christ Jesus according to the scriptures? I don't want to argue unnecessarily on these simple biblical truths. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Beautifulday: 11:38pm On Apr 05 |
vdestro: What was Abraham's religion? |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Beautifulday: 11:40pm On Apr 05 |
vdestro: How did Israel became God's people and how did you became God's person? |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Beautifulday: 11:40pm On Apr 05 |
FxMasterz: Which scripture exactly? |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by vdestro: 7:15am On Apr 07 |
Beautifulday: God fearfullness, God Respectfullness, Godliniity |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by vdestro: 7:16am On Apr 07 |
Beautifulday: This is offpoint. |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Beautifulday: 6:02pm On Apr 13 |
vdestro: Off point abi you no Sabi? |
| Re: Why Are The Israelites Not Christians? by Beautifulday: 6:03pm On Apr 13 |
vdestro: Funny! Go check up the meaning of religion. It's an English word. |
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