I have the following questions for Muslims here (please no insults, dodging the question, "Christians too" accusations (I am no Christian)) I would love to clear up these issues that's all.


(i) Islamic Scholars here, how does one reconcile the following;

Sura 69:44 - 47

And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, we would have seized him by the right hand; T[b]hen We would have cut from him the aorta[/b]. And there is no one of you who could prevent [Us] from him.

and the manner of the Prophets death:

From Tabari Volume 8, page 124: The messenger of God said during the illness from which he died - the mother of Bishr had come in to visit him - "Umm Bishr, at this very moment I feel my aorta being severed [/b]because of the food I ate with your son at Khaybar."

Bukhari's Hadith 5.713:
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, [b]I feel as if my aorta is being cut [/b]from that poison."

From Ibn Sa'd pages 251, 252: During his illness he used to say, "I did not cease to find the effect of the (poisoned) morsel, I took at Khaibar and I suffered several times (from its effect) but now I[b] feel the hour has come of the cutting of my jugular vein."

However, there is ONLY one condition that would have made the Prophets aorta to be severed as recorded in Sura 69:44 - 47. He assumed it to be from the poison. Allah would NOT have allowed him to make conclusion if the divine condition in the Koran had not been fulfilled.



(II)

From Ibn Sa'd page 294:    Umm Bishr [the mother of the Muslim man who also died eating poison], came to the prophet during his illness and said, "O apostle of Allah!  I never saw fever like it in any one."  The prophet said to her, "Our trial is double and so our reward [in heaven], is double.  What do the people say about it [his illness]?"  She said, "They say it is pleurisy."  Thereupon the apostle said, "Allah will not like to make His apostle suffer from it (pleurisy) because it indicates the possession of Satan, but (my disease is the result of) the morsel that I had taken along your son.  It has cut my jugular vein."

From Ibn Sa'd page 249: [different narrator]
The apostle of Allah and his companions ate from it. It (goat) said: "I am poisoned." He [Muhammad] said to his Companions, "Hold you hands! because it has informed me that it is poisoned!" They withdrew their hands, but Bishr Ibn al-Bara expired.

Certain posers come to mind. The Prophet suffered extreme pain (cutting of the aorta as discribed in Sura 69:44 - 47 and it was a fever not seen before. At least some sources describe extreme pain he went through. Was it earthly? Surely that poison would and its effects would have been known at the time. Why didn't Allah save his Prophet BEFORE he ate the meat or even after with the intercession by Gabriel (Ibn Sa'd page 265; Ibn Sa'd page 265), getting himself cupped - a medieval medical procedure(Ibn Sa'd page 250) and prayers (Sahih Muslim volume 3, # 5440; From Ibn Sa'd page 263).




(III)

Also why did Allah let his Prophet (the last Prophet) fall into the hands of a woman who sought revenge for the killing of her people? killing in the cause of doing the very thing sanctioned by Allah. Why didn't Allah save him as he did some earlier Prophets from those who wanted to kill him?

She set a test for his prophethood and he failed. Its important the correlation between this and Sura 69:44 - 47. Was this a separate incident from the Sura? If so the above question becomes pertinent or if not, what did the Prophet do to warrant this "cutting of the aorta"

From Ibn Sa'd pages 251, 252:  [different narrator]
            , When the apostle of Allah conquered Khaibar and he had peace of mind, Zaynab Bint al-Harith the brother of Marhab, who was the spouse of Sallam Ibn Mishkam, inquired, "Which part of the goat is liked by Muhammad?"  They said, "The foreleg."  Then she slaughtered one from her goats and roasted it (the meat).  Then she wanted a poison which could not fail. ,   The apostle of Allah took the foreleg, a piece of which he put into his mouth.  Bishr took another bone and put it into his mouth.  When the apostle of Allah ate one morsel of it Bishr ate his and other people also ate from it.  Then the apostle of Allah said, "Hold back your hands! because this foreleg; , informed me that it is poisoned.  Thereupon Bishr said, "By Him who has made you great!  I discovered it from the morsel I took.  Nothing prevented me from emitting it out, but the idea that I did not like to make your food unrelishing.  When you had eaten what was in your mouth I did not like to save my life after yours, and I also thought you would not have eaten it if there was something wrong.
            Bishr did not rise form his seat but his color changed to that of "taylsan" (a green cloth), The apostle of Allah sent for Zaynab and said to her, "What induced you to do what you have done?"  She replied, "You have done to my people what you have done.  You have killed my father, my uncle and my husband, so I said to myself, "If you are a prophet, the foreleg will inform you; and others have said, "If you are a king we will get rid of you."",

I hope to get an answer to the above.

It is sad that people refuse to look objectively into Islam,

1. The hadiths you quote refute your claims:

Why this is silly:

a- The hadeeth mentions a different word in Arabic than the verse. The Hadeeth mentions: "Abhar" and the verse mentions: "Wateen". So first of all, we need to establish that we're talking about the same thing (aorta), but we're not. I have reviewed a couple of dictionaries, and in one of them (Taj Alaaroos) it says that "abhar" is a connecting line that extends from head to base of a human. That's doesn't sound like an aorta to me!

b- People that try to attack Islam are usually simply "looking" for a contradiction, instead of reading objectively. In the verses mentioned Allah SWT says: "Had the prophet been lying, we would have taken him (forcefully), and then we would have cut off his "Wateen", and non of you would have been able to prevent it" (Translation is mine). A question comes to mind: If this book was not from Allah, why would a "lying" prophet threaten himself in his book!?. Also the verses context is that: if the prophet lies, we would take him and cut off his aorta. When did he eat the poison? last 3 years of his life. This means for all the years before that (in which majority of the Quran was already revealed), he didn't lie!!? why would he lie now?

c. Cutting of the aorta, is a common Arabic expression that means: death. It's a common idiom in Arabic. This is not literal, but metaphorical. I have many lines of poetry in Arabic (both poetry before the time of the prophet and after) that demonstrates this -  if you know Arabic and I'll send them. Ibn Qutayba in his Tafseer explicitly even mentions that this is metaphorical.


d- Logically the premises made are contradictory. Assuming Abhar and Wateen are the same, etc. logical statements go as follows:
premise1: Prophet claimed that if he lies he will have his aorta cut off.
premise2: Prophet's aorta was cut off.
Conclusion: Prophet was lying.
Wait: conclusion is that prophet was lying? if he was lying then his "claim" in premise1 is not true!! - thus a contradiction in the logic!!

In conclusion: If people over the years have been fascinated about the Quran and it's language, don't think that few ignorant people that barely know Arabic can come up with random claims and other more ignorant people (that might not even know the language) think they're upon something - they're not! Wallaho Aalam (Allah knows best).

tbaba12345:

It is sad that people refuse to look objectively into Islam,

There is nothing objective about ISLAM, Period !!!!!

2. Tabari Volume 8, Pages 123-124
"When the messenger of God rested from his labor, Zaynab bt. al-Harith, the wife of Sallam b. Mishkam, served him a roast sheep. She had asked what part of the sheep the messenger of God liked best and was told that it was the foreleg. So she loaded that part with poison, and she poisoned the rest of the sheep too. Then she brought it. When she set it before the messenger of God, he took the foreleg and chewed a bit of it, [b]but he did not swallow it. With him was Bishr b. al-Bara b. Marur, who, like the messenger of God, took some of it; Bishr, however, swallowed it, while the messenger of God spat it out saying, "This bone informs me that it has been poisoned." [/b]He asked, "What led you to do this?" She said: "How you have afflicted my people is not hidden from you. So I said, "If he is a prophet, he will be informed; but if he is a king, I shall be rid of him"". The prophet forgave her. Bishr died of the food he had eaten."

i. Bishr ate the poison and he died instantly, meaning the effect of the poison was instantaneously:: The prophet lived for 4 years after that!!

ii.) he spat out the meat, meaning he never ate the meat. There is no conclusive evidence that shows he died of any poison:

iii.) Like i said, the pain of cutting the Abhar  was a very common arabic idiom used to describe extreme pain. The words used in the Quran and hadith are different.

iv) He had a fever and he died like everyone would.

May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.



iv.)

III) the cutting of aorta has already been effectively debunked

i> He was informed of the poison which proved his prophethood.

She tried to kill him and she failed :::::

tbaba12345:

III) the cutting of aorta has already been effectively debunked

i> He was informed of the poison which proved his prophethood.

After he ate the poison? Remember his companion too tasted it (it may have been bitter) but kept on eating cos his Prophet was. So was the companion also knew about the poison not just the Prophet. In that case the knowledge of the poison proved nothing as his companions (non Prophets) also sensed the poison. His companion had faith that the Prophet would know of the poison and would warn him (and I also thought you would not have eaten it if there was something wrong). Unfortunately, the man died.

From Ibn Sa'd pages 251, 252: 
            , When the apostle of Allah conquered Khaibar and he had peace of mind, Zaynab Bint al-Harith the brother of Marhab, who was the spouse of Sallam Ibn Mishkam, inquired, "Which part of the goat is liked by Muhammad?"  They said, "The foreleg."  Then she slaughtered one from her goats and roasted it (the meat).  Then she wanted a poison which could not fail. ,   The apostle of Allah took the foreleg, a piece of which he put into his mouth.  Bishr took another bone and put it into his mouth.  When the apostle of Allah ate one morsel of it Bishr ate his and other people also ate from it.  Then the apostle of Allah said, "Hold back your hands! because this foreleg; , informed me that it is poisoned.  Thereupon Bishr said, "By Him who has made you great!  I discovered it from the morsel I took.  Nothing prevented me from emitting it out, but the idea that I did not like to make your food unrelishing.  When you had eaten what was in your mouth I did not like to save my life after yours, and I also thought you would not have eaten it if there was something wrong.   Bishr did not rise form his seat but his color changed to that of "taylsan" (a green cloth), The apostle of Allah sent for Zaynab and said to her, "What induced you to do what you have done?"  She replied, "You have done to my people what you have done.  You have killed my father, my uncle and my husband, so I said to myself, "If you are a prophet, the foreleg will inform you; and others have said, "If you are a king we will get rid of you."",
           

From Bukhari's Hadith 3.786: Narrated Anas bin Malik:  A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No."  I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah's Apostle.

She tried to kill him and she failed :::::

From various Hadith, she didn't fail.

From Ibn Sa'd pages 251, 252: The apostle of Allah lived after this three years till in consequence of his pain he passed away.  During his illness he used to say, "I did not cease to find the effect of the (poisoned) morsel, I took at Khaibar and I suffered several times (from its effect) but now I feel the hour has come of the cutting of my jugular vein."


Tabari Volume 8, page 124:  The messenger of God said during the illness from which he died - the mother of Bishr had come in to visit him - "Umm Bishr, at this very moment I feel my aorta being severed because of the food I ate with your son at Khaybar."

Bukhari's Hadith 5.713:Narrated 'Aisha:       The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."

tbaba12345:

It is sad that people refuse to look objectively into Islam,

1. The hadiths you quote refute your claims:

Why this is silly:

a- The hadeeth mentions a different word in Arabic than the verse. The Hadeeth mentions: "Abhar" and the verse mentions: "Wateen". So first of all, we need to establish that we're talking about the same thing (aorta), but we're not. I have reviewed a couple of dictionaries, and in one of them (Taj Alaaroos) it says that "abhar" is a connecting line that extends from head to base of a human. That's doesn't sound like an aorta to me!

b- People that try to attack Islam are usually simply "looking" for a contradiction, instead of reading objectively. In the verses mentioned Allah SWT says: "Had the prophet been lying, we would have taken him (forcefully), and then we would have cut off his "Wateen", and non of you would have been able to prevent it" (Translation is mine). A question comes to mind: If this book was not from Allah, why would a "lying" prophet threaten himself in his book!?. Also the verses context is that: if the prophet lies, we would take him and cut off his aorta. When did he eat the poison? last 3 years of his life. This means for all the years before that (in which majority of the Quran was already revealed), he didn't lie!!? why would he lie now?

c. Cutting of the aorta, is a common Arabic expression that means: death. It's a common idiom in Arabic. This is not literal, but metaphorical. I have many lines of poetry in Arabic (both poetry before the time of the prophet and after) that demonstrates this -  if you know Arabic and I'll send them. Ibn Qutayba in his Tafseer explicitly even mentions that this is metaphorical.


d- Logically the premises made are contradictory. Assuming Abhar and Wateen are the same, etc. logical statements go as follows:
premise1: Prophet claimed that if he lies he will have his aorta cut off.
premise2: Prophet's aorta was cut off.
Conclusion: Prophet was lying.
Wait: conclusion is that prophet was lying? if he was lying then his "claim" in premise1 is not true!! - thus a contradiction in the logic!!

In conclusion: If people over the years have been fascinated about the Quran and it's language, don't think that few ignorant people that barely know Arabic can come up with random claims and other more ignorant people (that might not even know the language) think they're upon something - they're not! Wallaho Aalam (Allah knows best).

Apart from the translation of Ibn Sa'd pages 251, 252 which mentioned jagular vein, why is the translation of the other Hadiths consistent  with that of that of Sura 69: 46? Surely the import of that mistranslation (if any) will not be lost on the translators.

Sura 69: 46 from various Koran translation

Transliteration
Thumma laqataAAna minhualwateen
Sahih International
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
Muhsin Khan
And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta),
Pickthall
And then severed his life-artery,
Yusuf Ali
And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:
Shakir
Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta.
Dr. Ghali
Thereafter indeed We would have cut (off) (his) aorta.


If indeed "cutting of the aorta" was metaphorical for dying - which is very plausible - it still leaves the main question unanswered. Why did Allah let Prophet Mohammed die from poison (have his aorta cut) as forewarned in Sura 69:46, when his desire was to die in battle (martyred) Bukhari 4-52-54.

From the accounts, dying from the illness as a direct consequence of the poison years back wasn't the way he wanted to leave earth as shown by the actions he took to get well. Such as accounts of intercession by Gabriel (Ibn Sa'd page 265; Ibn Sa'd page 265), getting himself cupped - a medieval medical procedure(Ibn Sa'd page 250) and prayers (Sahih Muslim volume 3, # 5440; From Ibn Sa'd page 263) and even medicine from Abassynia , Ethiopia - though it was against his wish (Ibn Hisham page 680.

I have pondered on the above for some time now.

tbaba12345:

i. Bishr ate the poison and he died instantly, meaning the effect of the poison was instantaneously:: The prophet lived for 4 years after that!!

Bishar died instantly because he ATE the meat and swallowed. The Prophet lived on for years cos he spat the meat out

Tabari Volume 8, Pages 123-124 - When she set it before the messenger of God, he took the foreleg and chewed a bit of it, but he did not swallow it. With him was Bishr b. al-Bara b. Marur, who, like the messenger of God, took some of it; Bishr, however, swallowed it, [b]while the messenger of God spat it out

ii.) he spat out the meat, meaning he never ate the meat. There is no conclusive evidence that shows he died of any poison:

See the hadith quoted above therein the Prophet Himself did attribute his illness that finally made him die to the poison eaten much earlier. Also:

From Bukhari's Hadith 3.786: Narrated Anas bin Malik:  . . . .  I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah's Apostle.

This showed the poison did, unfortunately, enter his body.

iii.) Like i said, the pain of cutting the Abhar  was a very common arabic idiom used to describe extreme pain. The words used in the Quran and hadith are different.

I somewhat agree with you that cutting of the Abhar may be a common Arabic Idom. However authentic translations of the holy books/text don't distinguish them as you put it.

Even then the "cutting of the Abhar" (extreme pain) ultimately lead to "Wadeen" in this case which is the crux of the matter really. I see that only Ibn Saad translation supports your assertion  Ibn Sa'd page 294 - . . .  It has cut my jugular vein.

iv) He had a fever and he died like everyone would.

Where did  fever come from? We get the answer here -

Ibn Sa'd page 294 - Umm Bishr [the mother of the Muslim man who also died eating poison], came to the prophet during his illness [/b]and said, "O apostle of Allah!  I never saw fever like it in any one."  The prophet said to her, "Our trial is double and so our reward [in heaven], is double.  What do the people say about it [his illness]?"  She said, "They say it is pleurisy."  Thereupon the apostle said, "Allah will not like to make His apostle suffer from it (pleurisy) because it indicates the possession of Satan, [b]but (my disease is the result of) the morsel that I had taken along your son.  It has cut my jugular vein."


Bukhari's Hadith 5.713:Narrated 'Aisha:    The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."


Ibn Sa'd pages 251, 252: The apostle of Allah lived after this three years till in consequence of his pain he passed away.  During his illness he used to say, "I did not cease to find the effect of the (poisoned) morsel, I took at Khaibar and I suffered several times (from its effect) but now I feel the hour has come of the cutting of my jugular vein."
May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

Is it that you just don't read? ::: I usually don't go off on people but seriously?

1. The hadith says Abhar

2. The Quran says Wateen

It is not the same thing::

Abhar  and Wateen are not the same thing:

Abtar refers to  a connecting line that extends from head to base of a human. Is that an Aorta.

There are two different words:: The problem lies in the translation not in the meaning,

Besides the use of 'cutting the abhar' was a common idiom to the Arabs::

So unless you can show me an Arab dictionary or you understand the arabic language, that says otherwise:: That discussion is dead, 

So, authentic Hadiths clearly say Muhammad was a martyr and that he died 4 years AFTER he ate the sheep's foreleg. Sahih Bukhari Volume 005, Book 059, Hadith Number 713 does say he died while he was IN his ailment. It doesn't say he died BECAUSE of his ailment. Does it? NO. He felt the pain of the poison while dying as a martyr, but that does not mean the poison killed him. It was 4 years before he was poisoned before he died, but the reason why he could still feel the pain caused by the food he ate, was because God DELAYED Muhammad's death, so he could die as a martyr.

Example - Suppose someone has cancer, and he is told he will die in 40 days by doctors. On day 5, he gets run over by a car, and gets seriously wounded. On the way to the hospital, he says: "I can still feel the pain of cancer," and then he dies. That does NOT necessarily mean he died as a result of cancer. Similarly, Muhammad could still feel the pain caused by food, but he  could have died as a result of fighting in self defense in the Battle of Khaybar.

Even from a scientific point of view, Try taking a taste of poison now and see if it will stay 4 years in body particularly if it is the kind designed to kill instantly.>>>>

You have no argument:::

Ciao!!

tbaba12345:

Are you dumb? or you just don't read? :::

1. The hadith says Abhar

2. The Quran says Wateen

It is not the same thing::

Abhar  and Wateen are not the same thing:

Abtar refers to the is a connecting line that extends from head to base of a human. Is that an Aorta.

There are two different words::

Besides the use of 'cutting the abhar' was a common idiom to the Arabs::

So unless you can show me an Arab dictionary or you understand the arabic language, that says otherwise:: That discussion is dead, 

Yes, the Koran says wateen. But that didn't stop me asking why the Prophet didnt die as he wished (in battle martyred) but in the hands of a Jewess after so much pain (Abhar). Wouldn't some say it was Wadeen ultimately since he put in considerable effort to get well but failed through intercession by Gabriel (Ibn Sa'd page 265; Ibn Sa'd page 265), getting himself cupped - a medieval medical procedure(Ibn Sa'd page 250) and prayers (Sahih Muslim volume 3, # 5440; From Ibn Sa'd page 263) and even medicine from Abassynia , Ethiopia - though it was against his wish (Ibn Hisham page 680.

So, authentic Hadiths clearly say Muhammad was a martyr and that he died 4 years AFTER he ate the sheep's foreleg. Sahih Bukhari Volume 005, Book 059, Hadith Number 713 does say he died while he was IN his ailment. It doesn't say he died BECAUSE of his ailment. Does it? NO. He felt the pain of the poison while dying as a martyr, but that does not mean the poison killed him. [/b].

Other Hadiths don't agree with you

bn Sa'd pages 251, 252: The apostle of Allah lived after this three years till in consequence of his pain he passed away.  During his illness he used to say, "I did not cease to find the effect of the (poisoned) morsel, I took at Khaibar and I suffered several times (from its effect) but now I feel the hour has come of the cutting of my jugular vein."


Tabari Volume 8, page 124:  The messenger of God said during the illness from which he died - the mother of Bishr had come in to visit him - "Umm Bishr, at this very moment I feel my aorta being severed because of the food I ate with your son at Khaybar."

It was 4 years before he was poisoned before he died, but the reason why he could still feel the pain caused by the food he ate, was  because God DELAYED Muhammad's death, so he could die as a martyr.

Example - Suppose someone has cancer, and he is told he will die in 40 days by doctors. On day 5, he gets run over by a car, and gets seriously wounded. On the way to the hospital, he says: "I can still feel the pain of cancer," and then he dies. That does NOT necessarily mean he died as a result of cancer. Similarly, Muhammad could still feel the pain caused by food, but he died as a result of fighting in self defense in the Battle of Khaybar.

He didnt die fighting:

From Ibn Hisham page 682: , that he heard Aisha [one of Muhammad's wives] say:  "The apostle died in my bosom during my turn: [the night Muhammad was to spend sleeping with her]  I had wronged none in regard to him.  It was due to my ignorance and extreme youth that the apostle died in my arms."  Compare with Bukhari 4-52-54.

Tabari Volume 8, page 124:  The messenger of God said during the illness from which he died - the mother of Bishr had come in to visit him - "Umm Bishr, at this very moment I feel my aorta being severed because of the food I ate with your son at Khaybar."


Ibn Sa'd pages 251, 252: The apostle of Allah lived after this three years till in consequence of his pain he passed away.  During his illness he used to say, "I did not cease to find the effect of the (poisoned) morsel, I took at Khaibar and I suffered several times (from its effect) but now I feel the hour has come of the cutting of my jugular vein."

If this Christian [/b]alleges false Prophets are killed, that means the previous Biblical prophets are false prophets, according to his logic:

Matthew 23:37:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

I expected this was coming so remember my opening statements;

[ author=brentkruge link=topic=879904.msg10273780#msg10273780 date=1330204992]
I have the following questions for Muslims here ([b]please no insults, dodging the question, "Christians too" accusations (I am no Christian)) I would love to clear up these issues that's all.

I hope to get an answer to the above.



Sura 69:44 - 47: And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, we would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta. And there is no one of you who could prevent [Us] from him.

Even from a scientific point of view, Try taking a taste of poison now and see if it will stay 4 years in body particularly if it is the kind designed to kill instantly.>>>>

Are you saying that the Prophets own words should be contested using science? I believe the Prophet when he said these words. He was the one in pain and he and the people around him knew what caused it:


Bukhari's Hadith 5.713:Narrated 'Aisha:    The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."



Ibn Sa'd pages 251, 252: The apostle of Allah lived after this three years till in consequence of his pain he passed away.  During his illness he used to say, "I did not cease to find the effect of the (poisoned) morsel, I took at Khaibar and I suffered several times (from its effect) but now I feel the hour has come of the cutting of my jugular vein."

You have no argument:::

Ciao!!

Thank you for your efforts, though it fell short.

Death is not an end in Islam and the Prophet (SAW) would have died one way or the other. it is also a fact that certain kinds of death brings one a greater degree of reward in the afterlife. You cannot compare the reward of a Muslim who dies in his sleep with one who was poisoned or died on the battlefield of a legitimate fight. They aren't the same.

It is on record that Khalid Ibn Walid (RA) perhaps the greatest General in Islamic history rued the fact that he would die on his bed rather in battle very much.

It is only Allah that determines when, how and where one will die. Hence, Prophethood is not verified by how one dies because that is the exclusive preserve of God.

"Surely Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the hour, and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs; and no one knows what he shall earn on the morrow; and no one knows in what land he shall die; surely Allah is Knowing, Aware". (Quran 31:34)

By the way OP, your Biology is rather poor. A person with a severed Aorta lasting for years- come on!

in the below thread started by another kafir,all the allegations that the Prophet (sa) died as a result of poisoning are proven wrong:

"Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved"
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-836687.0.html

maclatunji:

Death is not an end in Islam and the Prophet (SAW) would have died one way or the other. it is also a fact that certain kinds of death brings one a greater degree of reward in the afterlife. You cannot compare the reward of a Muslim who dies in his sleep [b]with one who was poisoned [/b]or died on the battlefield of a legitimate fight. They aren't the same.

It is on record that Khalid Ibn Walid (RA) perhaps the greatest General in Islamic history rued the fact that he would die on his bed rather in battle very much.

It is only Allah that determines when, how and where one will die. Hence, Prophethood is not verified by how one dies because that is the exclusive preserve of God.

"Surely Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the hour, and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs; and no one knows what he shall earn on the morrow; and no one knows in what land he shall die; surely Allah is Knowing, Aware". (Quran 31:34)

Nice reply.

But justify the bold with relevant passages if you can please.

maclatunji:

By the way OP, your Biology is rather poor. A person with a severed Aorta lasting for years- come on!

It wasnt me that started this cutting of aorta stuff nah? Its in the Koran and Hadith.

Tabari Volume 8, page 124: The messenger of God said during the illness from which he died - the mother of Bishr had come in to visit him - "Umm Bishr, at this very moment I feel my aorta being severed because of the food I ate with your son at Khaybar."

My biology is perfect.

Tbaba gave a good answer

Cutting of the aorta, is a common Arabic expression that means: death. I[b]t's a common idiom in Arabic. This is not literal, but metaphorical.[/b]

LagosShia:

in the below thread started by another kafir,all the allegations that the Prophet (sa) died as a result of poisoning are proven wrong:

"Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved"
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-836687.0.html

Sorry to burst your bubble, it wasn't proven wrong in the thread.

I need a sober Muslim to explain this further for the benefit of "kafirs" who habour doubts. Afterall we are "kafirs" [disbelievers] for a reason.

brentkruge:


Sorry to burst your bubble, it wasn't proven wrong in the thread.

I need a sober Muslim to explain this further for the benefit of "kafirs" who habour doubts. Afterall we are "kafirs" [disbelievers] for a reason.

and i think it was perfectly proven beyond doubt in that thread that it was no poison that killed the Prophet (sa).so please review the thread if you will or spare us the BS and remain the kafir you are if you are not convinced.

just like in that thread,no reason or logic or argument or fact or evidence would be enough to make you change your mind or the idea you'd like to attach your thinking to.so of what use would it be to give you any reason on the topic? you will still not believe anyways.you can save us time by reviewing that thread and see how ridiculous your likes can be.

@Brentkruge: I saw an amputee once who said to people around him that the part that was removed was itching him and he needed to scratch it.
People were so shocked because where he wanted to scratch is no more part of him!

The same condition can be logically explained about the messenger [as] of his feeling about the poisoned he consumed so long ago. Let just assume that he felt the pang of the poison immediately it was consumed, while other died of it, he survived it and the only effect he felt was just a pain. Let us assumed it was excruciating pain at the meal. The miracle was that he did not died while others died. That was the first miracle.

The second miracle was that he survived for 3 years without any pain, living normal live and receiving revelation and even made Hajj.
The third miracle was that he died at old age, almost 2 times the age of Jesus of the bibles.

The other miracle was that when he was going to die, his Lord let him feel the pain as it it was fresh, so that he could be made a martyr because those who die of stomach complications are martyr as well.

There are still other miracles. Interestingly, does anyone expect a messenger and or prophet to remain after his mission? what will he be doing around; lounging around you think?


Allah has Willed what He Willed and has made Muhammad [as] the best.

LagosShia:

and i think it was perfectly proven beyond doubt in that thread that it was no poison that killed the Prophet (sa).so please review the thread if you will or spare us the BS and remain the kafir you are if you are not convinced.

just like in that thread,no reason or logic or argument or fact or evidence would be enough to make you change your mind or the idea you'd like to attach your thinking to.so of what use would it be to give you any reason on the topic? you will still not believe anyways.you can save us time by reviewing that thread and see how ridiculous your likes can be.

I don't think so. Please read it, this time CAREFULLY.

Sweetnecta:

@Brentkruge: I saw an amputee once who said to people around him that the part that was removed was itching him and he needed to scratch it.
People were so shocked because where he wanted to scratch is no more part of him!

The same condition can be logically explained about the messenger [as] of his feeling about the poisoned he consumed so long ago. Let just assume that he felt the pang of the poison immediately it was consumed, while other died of it, he survived it and the only effect he felt was just a pain. Let us assumed it was excruciating pain at the meal. The miracle was that he did not died while others died. That was the first miracle.

The second miracle was that he survived for 3 years without any pain, living normal live and receiving revelation and even made Hajj.
The third miracle was that he died at old age, almost 2 times the age of Jesus of the bibles.

The other miracle was that when he was going to die, his Lord let him feel the pain as it it was fresh, so that he could be made a martyr because those who die of stomach complications are martyr as well.

There are still other miracles. Interestingly, does anyone expect a messenger and or prophet to remain after his mission? what will he be doing around; lounging around you think?


Allah has Willed what He Willed and has made Muhammad [as] the best.

Thanks for your take on the matter.

Yea you are right about the amputees feeling their lost limbs.

The Hadiths say he spit the meat out, that may be a reason for his longevity.

I dont think the Hadiths support the second miracle. It did state in several passages that he felt pain and told others about it. Event though he carried on.

I don't think comparing his age to that of Jesus makes any difference to the matter, dont you think?


The other miracle was that when he was going to die, his Lord let him feel the pain as it it was fresh, so that he could be made a martyr because those who die of stomach complications are martyr as well. There are still other miracles. Interestingly, does anyone expect a messenger and or prophet to remain after his mission? what will he be doing around; lounging around you think?

From your explanation, he had to leave on way or another but as a martyr so the pain had to be relived. OK.

Thanks for your reply.

.

I wonder why the long arguments.

Bukhari Hadith 5:713:
Narrated Aisha: The Prophets in his AILMENT in WHICH HE DIED, used to say ''O Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the FOOD I ATE AT KHAIBAR, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from the POISON.

In all the stories about Muhammad's death, there is nowhere 'WOUND' in battle was mentioned either by himself or someone else, it is all about POISON in all hadiths. Is tbaba trying to write his own hadith to counter the existing ones by saying wound in battle killed him? Okay: trying to 'perfect it?'

truthman2012: I wonder why the long arguments.

Bukhari Hadith 5:713:
Narrated Aisha: The Prophets in his AILMENT in WHICH HE DIED, used to say ''O Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the FOOD I ATE AT KHAIBAR, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from the POISON.

In all the stories about Muhammad's death, there is nowhere 'WOUND' in battle was mentioned either by himself or someone else, it is all about POISON in all hadiths. Is tbaba trying to write his own hadith to counter the existing ones by saying wound in battle killed him? Okay: trying to 'perfect it?'

Help me ask oh. The thing taya me.

tbaba12345: Is it that you just don't read? ::: I usually don't go off on people but seriously?

1. The hadith says Abhar

2. The Quran says Wateen

It is not the same thing::

Abhar  and Wateen are not the same thing:

Abtar refers to  a connecting line that extends from head to base of a human. Is that an Aorta.

There are two different words:: The problem lies in the translation not in the meaning,

Besides the use of 'cutting the abhar' was a common idiom to the Arabs::

So unless you can show me an Arab dictionary or you understand the arabic language, that says otherwise:: That discussion is dead, 

So, authentic Hadiths clearly say Muhammad was a martyr and that he died 4 years AFTER he ate the sheep's foreleg. Sahih Bukhari Volume 005, Book 059, Hadith Number 713 does say he died while he was IN his ailment. It doesn't say he died BECAUSE of his ailment. Does it? NO. He felt the pain of the poison while dying as a martyr, but that does not mean the poison killed him. It was 4 years before he was poisoned before he died, but the reason why he could still feel the pain caused by the food he ate, was because God DELAYED Muhammad's death, so he could die as a martyr.

Example - Suppose someone has cancer, and he is told he will die in 40 days by doctors. On day 5, he gets run over by a car, and gets seriously wounded. On the way to the hospital, he says: "I can still feel the pain of cancer," and then he dies. That does NOT necessarily mean he died as a result of cancer. Similarly, Muhammad could still feel the pain caused by food, but he  could have died as a result of fighting in self defense in the Battle of Khaybar.

Even from a scientific point of view, Try taking a taste of poison now and see if it will stay 4 years in body particularly if it is the kind designed to kill instantly.>>>>

You have no argument:::

Ciao!!

I have always observe ur debate on nairaland for a longtime now, you are just a bigot and blind to your profess faith that you find it so difficult to always see the truth even when it obvious.
You argue lik a good lawyer trying to save is criminal client from conviction.

Interesting thread. . .This just shows how the religious mind works, people will see white and claim its blue. . .LOL @ tbaba and co. . .

@OP and chrisians and other non muslims; we must know that after the verse was revealed, revelation continued to come down and it did not stop until Allah completed what He willed, The Quran and the Wisdom [true hadith and sunnah of the prophet [sa]. To suggest therefore that he was punished according to the Quranc verse in the death which happened much much later and 3 years after the poison incident is not to taking into consideration the 'tense' used in the verse and maybe consciously deceiving or ignoring the fact that someone died on the spot where he ate the lamb, not because of swallowing, but because of chewing was enough to get the poison potency in.



Sura 69:44 - 47

And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, we would have seized him by the right hand; T[b]hen We would have cut from him the aorta[/b]. And there is no one of you who could prevent [Us] from him.



the 'if' at the beginning of the verse shows that Muhammad [sa] was not found to be guilty of any falsehood of "made up sayings about "US" {Allah Alone]. and the "We would have seized him" which is also past tense is expressing what would have happened which is 'seize'. The "then We would have cut from him the aorta" is in the past tense as well and it provides the method that would have been used to end his life. lets stop here to find out if Muhammad [sa] was alive at the time of the revelation of this verse? If Muhammad [sa] was alive can we say he was a man God found making up false saying in the past and passing them as coming from God? There is no reason of to think he [sa] was.



if God continued to send revelation, can be propose that God is not satisfied with Muhammad [sa] or that Muhammad [sa] was going to die as a man who made up false sayings already in the past about God? does it mean that if he died much later after the verse with served 'aorta' God killed him now when God said if He had found with him in the past He would have killed him then [indicating it would have been a done before the verse was revealed]? why wait for much later after the fact, when God said no one would have been able to prevent Him had He found him to be worth of the method of death prescribed?



we now have to ask ourselves many questions before we conclude if the death of Muhammad [sa] is due to made up false sayings or even totally based on the poison alone and its not because that his prophetic duties was finished and there is no point for him to remain alive, with the fact that he was old enough between 60 and 70 years where most muslims will die and that as a human being his turn to die came and so was the fulfillment of the verse in the Quran, every soul must taste death.



any reasonable mind will come to the conclusion that his death much later to the verse and the poison even is at least inconclusive that God Who said He could have killed him in the past had he made up false sayings is now killing him in the future when it is reasonable to say that he did not make up false sayings before the verse describing how terrible the death would have been was revealed. we can not say that it is the poison that God will use to kill His beloved, especially when it from the enemy of God and His beloved [Allah does show Mercy and He will not let His enemy killed His beloved like the christians expressed the enemy of Jehovah killed Jehovah or son of Jehovah or at least the beloved of Jevovah before raised him up]. no sane mind after being threatened by The One Who can Threaten and carry the threat out would be expected to come near any 'false sayings' after such a threatening verse was revealed. we know that Muhammad [sa] was sane because God says Muhammad [sa] was very sane and he continued to receive revelations from Him.



and the manner of the Prophets death:

From Tabari Volume 8, page 124: The messenger of God said during the illness from which he died - the mother of Bishr had come in to visit him - "Umm Bishr, at this very moment I feel my aorta being severed [/b]because of the food I ate with your son at Khaybar."


Bukhari's Hadith 5.713:
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, [b]I feel as if my aorta is being cut [/b]from that poison."


From Ibn Sa'd pages 251, 252: During his illness he used to say, "I did not cease to find the effect of the (poisoned) morsel, I took at Khaibar and I suffered several times (from its effect) but now I[b] feel the hour has come of the cutting of my jugular vein."





Since it is the matter of the jugular vein [aorta] that bothers the people who are bothered and not his death, then we shall look at the verse in which Allah threatened in the light of it. We will not dispute that he said the effect of the poison of some years back is being felt and that his jugular vein [aorta] is being severed, if the hadith is true. What we are going to contest is when is it supposed to be fulfilled to proof that Muhammad [sa] made up false sayings? not in the future but in the past before the verse was revealed. read it, again.




While what would have happened didn't happen as per the text of the Quranic verse, it is a proof that Muhammad [a] was not saying anything false because there is no reason to delay the bad event that was to happen in the past to the future by the God Who is swift in Punishment. Who will prevent Allah? No one. Is Allah shy or unable to carry out His plan that He revealed to the world? No. If He didnt reveal it can anyone stop Him or question why He kept it to Himself? no. the condition of Muhammad [sa] about the verse in the Quran is completely opposite to the condition of the 'didnt happen' happening of the duties of the another comforter in the Bible on the day of pentecost without the another comforter speaking, but happened 600 years later with ability to hear from God [the good and bad news, the praising and the warning, etc] is an indication of whatever occurred on pentecost was not it and the good news was delayed until the world is ready for it is the more sweet[er].

double post.