frosbel: ^^^^



The life of the flesh, mark the word flesh, is in the blood, this has nothing to do with an actual entity called soul, for Man is a living soul according to Genesis 2 :7, only when the spirit or life of God dwells within him. By inference, the life of the flesh is in the blood no doubt while the life of a Man is with the breath of God. Herein we have a marked difference between the physical and the spiritual aspects of Man.

About the demon drinking blood joke you stated above, I hope this is not the fallacious gibberish you teach or preach to younger gullible Christians? Show us, for the benefit of doubt where the bible ever suggests that demons drink blood.

I can't really comment on the rest because my question remains unanswered, I want a point by point rebuttal.

Thanks.

You started this thread to prove there is no hell,and you are shying away from the truth when it has been proven that it exists.

Why did you have time to say demons and witches do not drink blood but left the core issue unaswered?

Answer my question and I will answer yours truthfully.

TroGunn:

You, sir/ma'am just don't get it. There's no illogic. While destroying the wicked one time is a necessity to protect the righteous, tormenting the wicked eternally is unnecessary and serves no purpose whatsoever. It's not justice. Death (absence of life), even today is the just punishment for the biggest crime. Prior to being born, the wicked were not alive. For refusing to repent and abide by God's directive, the just punishment for the wicked is to return them to lifelessness -death. It the 'wages of sin'. Eternal torment as punishment can only be sadism, something that is alien to the loving God.

If deaath is the only just punishment for the wicked then why did Jesus has to die for sinners?...even david gave a account of how righteous me die quick deaths why the wicked take longer time to die..does that mean God is unjust? The truth is the penalty of sin is 'spiritual death'(total alienation from God)..and not physical death as you would have us believe. There are men who are alive but are dead corpse walking as far as am concerned..they do don't carry God's glory . Thank you.

Bidam: If deaath is the only just punishment for the wicked then why did Jesus has to die for sinners?...even david gave a account of how righteous me die quick deaths why the wicked take longer time to die..does that mean God is unjust? The truth is the penalty of sin is 'spiritual death'(total alienation from God)..and not physical death as you would have us believe. There are men who are alive but are dead corpse walking as far as am concerned..they do don't carry God's glory . Thank you.

You guys are hanging onto tradition at all costs.


So , is our hope in DEATH and not the RESURRECTION ?

@frosbel, here are my replies to the issues you raised. I had to separate it this way because nairaland quote couldnt work here. I seperated it in three parts- My post, Your reply and My response(to your reply).

My Post- 2. someone that is sleeping is not totally out of activity rather he is inactive in one environment(physical) and active in another environment(the dream).


Your reply or question:- Can you support this with the bible.

My response-You and i know that when we are sleeping we are no more conscious of what is happening around us but in the dream we still find ourselves doing things and still thinking we are doing it in the physical. I mean this is a general experience everyone of us have when we sleep. In the bible too people slept and had dreams. One of them was Jacob in Genesis 28:11-12. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.




My Post- Again as i stated in my point two about sleep, someone who is said to be asleep is not totally out of activity rather, he is out of activity on one side of the divide and active on the other side.


Your reply- How can this be ? sleep in the natural context implies a static position of rest, why should this be different with death ?

And which side of the divide are the righteous in this context ?


My response to you- Yes you are correct with your definition of sleep and the static position of rest makes you not active in that environment as i said, yet somewhere in the dream which is another environment, you are active- doing something, walking, running, talking or working etc and even think you are doing it in the physical like i earlier mentioned. Relate this to what happens in death(which is described as sleep). Right here in the physical you are no more active, but in the spiritual or supernatural realm your soul is active(which is supported in the scriptures with the lazarus story and the revelation 6:9-11 that i quoted).



My post- In other words, sleep takes one out of activity in one environment and bring him active in another environment.


Your reply- But this is not the definition of sleep in the natural sense and the bible does not support this position.

My response- Your definition of sleep is still same with what i gave there but not with exact words as yours and i agree with your definition too like i said.



My Post- Therefore in this case where sleep defines what the bible means by death, the issue of what went on between Lazarus and the rich man when death took them away from being active in the earthly environment to be active in another environment(which is my second point about sleep) cannot be said to be false. Again that story did not tell us that Lazarus was in heaven but rather in the bosom of Abraham(the bible did not say it is heaven and we are not also saying that) Again there is nothing in that passage that suggests that Lazarus will dwell there forever. Rather what we see there is someone who is resting in the bossom of Abraham.


Your replies- 1. How do you reconcile this to the verse in the bible , where Jesus said he will come back to take his saints to be with him after he prepares a place for them ? What is the point of him coming to take his dead saints to be with him if they are already with him ?

2. Paul said if there is no resurrection the dead in Christ have perished, surely he is wrong, the dead in Christ are with Christ , why should they perish ?


My Response- If you read my post well, I didnt say they are already with Jesus or in heaven. The two passages I mentioned did not also say that the souls are in heaven neither did it say they are with Christ and i leave it at what the scripture said.



My post- Here is another case to buttress this point in Revelation 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.


Your reply- This is an allegory similar to what we have recorded in Genesis 4:10

"The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground." - Genesis 4:10

Are we to suggest here that Abel's blood was literally crying out ?


My response- I may agree with what you said here that its an allegory(because there was not statement that was made by the blood of Abel). God just said that the blood cried out. But the one i quoted in revelation 6:9-11 shows there was a communication going on so its quite a different case from that of Abel. In revelation the souls asked a question- how long will...... and there was a reply that they should wait a little longer..... The two cases are not the same.


My post- The highlighted supports the fact that in death the soul is still active somewhere.


Your reply- Where ?

My response- The bible did not say its heaven and since its obvious that its also not on earth then we could say its in the supernatural realm(Not heaven)



My Post- Resurrection remains our hope because it is at that time that our bodies will be changed to a glorious one which we will put on to go and be with the Lord forever(both the dead in Christ and the living).
And of course if there is no resurrection, those who are asleep in Christ perish because what else is a child of God worth without the hope of seeing Jesus and being with him forever.


Your reply- But how can he perish ? He is not really dead , he is already living with the Lord in Abraham's bosom located in Heaven , no ? and the resurrection is just a formality , death has already achieved the Christian's hope of being with the Lord in heaven.

My response- Again i did not say he is not dead rather i related it to sleep which the bible used in describing death. we did not also say that Abraham's bossom is heaven or a place where we ll be with the Lord. Even those passages didnt make mention of those places as a permanent place of stay or a place of stay with the Lord. We are all looking for that day that the trumpet of God will sound and all saved souls(both dead and alive) will be taken up to heaven to go and be with the Lord forever. May God help us all to be there. Amen.



This is the little submission i can make now to the issues you raised. God bless you.

Ijawkid and frosbel can't even cast out a single devil..let them talk about their experiences out their in the field for us to learn from..you people shouldn't waste time arguing with them..they are what we call 'false brethren'.

frosbel:

You guys are hanging onto tradition at all costs.


So , is our hope in DEATH and not the RESURRECTION ?

you are still in the dark cocerning scriptures. Jesus said "I am the ressurection and the Life"..Paul clearly understood this mystery thats why his prayers were "that i might know Him and the power of his ressurection".. We are already ressurected with him bro..in the spiritual context..we are just waiting for Him to receive us and for us to embrace the sunshine of immortality because life on earth is prison..we are waiting for others to also join us cos without them we can't be perfected.

Bidam: you are still in the dark cocerning scriptures. Jesus said "I am the ressurection and the Life"..Paul clearly understood this mystery thats why his prayers were "that i might know Him and the power of his ressurection".. We are already ressurected with him bro.we are just waiting for Him to receive us and for us to embrace the sunshine of immortality because life on earth is prison..we are waiting for others to also join us cos without them we can't be perfected.

"17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some." - 2 Timothy 2: 17- 18


Be careful what you preach.

enilove: frosbel,

I just want you to know that there are somethings you do not have knowledge of ,and which you claim to know.
Lets consider you statement that, the soul of maln is without body parts;that it is without interior nor exterior and that it does not have a tongue & eyes.

Psalm 7:2 "Lest he tear my soul like a lion,rendering it in pieces...." If soul does not have parts ,how can it be torn in pieces?

A man has a body ,soul and spirit.When someone dies,it is the body that returns to dust not the soul and the spirit.

We are created in the image of God,and God does not have a physical body made of dust, but a spiritual body.So every human being at death will become a spirit soul without physical body. This spirit can be seen and it has eyes and brain and tongues more functional than it was in the body made of dust.
God is a Spirit and has a Spiritual body that appeared to Moses in Exodus 33:23. This reads," And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my back parts,but my face thall not be seen".
This means that the rich man in hell has eyes and tongues and brains intact,as Jesus said.

Demons are spirits,still they can talk and feel pains. Likewise a dead person,who will drop the body and bocome a spirit being.

A soul has eyes and everything that the human form has. God has a soul( Judges 10:16) . Since God have eyes and mouth,why do you think the soul of Lazarus in hell will not have eyes and tongues?
Infact,the real person in us is the soul ,not the body of dust or the physical body.
Genesis 2:7 says" And God formed man of the dust of the ground ,& breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; & man bcame a LIVING SOUL. Not a living body.
When you are sleeping and dreams that you are driving,it is not the physical eyes, that is closed in bed, you use in driving but the spiritual eyes of the soul in you.When you dream,it is your soul and spirit that are in action not the physical body, which is sleeping or resting.

As you requested, this is to kindly tell you how a soul can have a complete body with hands to touch and tongues to taste.

Hell is real,Jesus said so, & it is so.

God bless you.

@frosbel

My Post- 2. someone that is sleeping is not totally out of activity rather he is inactive in one environment(physical) and active in another environment(the dream).


Your reply or question:- Can you support this with the bible.

My response-You and i know that when we are sleeping we are no more conscious of what is happening around us but in the dream we still find ourselves doing things and still thinking we are doing it in the physical. I mean this is a general experience everyone of us have when we sleep. In the bible too people slept and had dreams. One of them was Jacob in Genesis 28:11-12. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.

Thanks for your careful and detail response.

A dream does not involve real activity in the real sense of the word, it is simply a play back from the subconscious , though there are dreams that can be inspired by demons or God , in neither case is real activity involved.

According to a definition of the concept from Wikipedia, 'Dreams are successions of images, ideas, emotions, and sensations that occur involuntarily in the mind during certain stages of sleep'.

And which side of the divide are the righteous in this context ?


My response to you- Yes you are correct with your definition of sleep and the static position of rest makes you not active in that environment as i said, yet somewhere in the dream which is another environment, you are active- doing something, walking, running, talking or working etc and even think you are doing it in the physical like i earlier mentioned. Relate this to what happens in death(which is described as sleep). Right here in the physical you are no more active, but in the spiritual or supernatural realm your soul is active(which is supported in the scriptures with the lazarus story and the revelation 6:9-11 that i quoted).

3 small points.

1. I have never been active in any dream in the real sense of the word ,especially running, talking or walking. Why is this ?

2. You confused me here, if we correlate this to the experience of sleep, it is make believe, in most cases it is not real , you think you are active in the other realm when in fact you are not , and if we take this logic at face value , then those who are in hell or heaven are in a state of dreaming and not reality.

3. Kindly support this exposition of yours with specific reference to sleep from scripture, taking one from the new and old testaments respectively.

My Post- Therefore in this case where sleep defines what the bible means by death, the issue of what went on between Lazarus and the rich man when death took them away from being active in the earthly environment to be active in another environment(which is my second point about sleep) cannot be said to be false. Again that story did not tell us that Lazarus was in heaven but rather in the bosom of Abraham(the bible did not say it is heaven and we are not also saying that) Again there is nothing in that passage that suggests that Lazarus will dwell there forever. Rather what we see there is someone who is resting in the bossom of Abraham.


Your replies- 1. How do you reconcile this to the verse in the bible , where Jesus said he will come back to take his saints to be with him after he prepares a place for them ? What is the point of him coming to take his dead saints to be with him if they are already with him ?

2. Paul said if there is no resurrection the dead in Christ have perished, surely he is wrong, the dead in Christ are with Christ , why should they perish ?


My Response- If you read my post well, I didnt say they are already with Jesus or in heaven. The two passages I mentioned did not also say that the souls are in heaven neither did it say they are with Christ and i leave it at what the scripture said

Hmm, so they are not now with Jesus ? Surely they have to be somewhere, they cannot be floating around with no fixed location ? They are either with Jesus or sleeping in the gravedom of mankind !

My post- Here is another case to buttress this point in Revelation 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.


Your reply- This is an allegory similar to what we have recorded in Genesis 4:10

"The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground." - Genesis 4:10

Are we to suggest here that Abel's blood was literally crying out ?


My response- I may agree with what you said here that its an allegory(because there was not statement that was made by the blood of Abel). God just said that the blood cried out. But the one i quoted in revelation 6:9-11 shows there was a communication going on so its quite a different case from that of Abel. In revelation the souls asked a question- how long will...... and there was a reply that they should wait a little longer..... The two cases are not the same.

Okay , but that means they are in Heaven with Jesus , though Jesus said :

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." - John 14:3

So they cannot be with him , just yet , meaning this is just another allegory , as Ijawkid rightly said, akin to justice crying out for the avenging of their blood. !




In conclusion, let me apologise for our heated debate a few days ago and how this may have caused you grief, it is unbecoming of Christians , let us debate these points in LOVE and PEACE not in hatred or strive providing the devil an opportunity. We should promote each other and not bring ourselves down.

All I am doing is innocently reading the fine print of all the previous doctrines I once believed in.

The only doctrine which has stood the test of time, is that God is love and he has sent his Son to redeem us from our sins, to give us eternal life , and in this present life provide us with all we need for life and godliness.

I also believe that for Christians, we are looking for that blessed hope when our Lord will be revealed from heaven with the mighty shout of the archangel, when the dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive will be caught to meet our Lord in the sky , to be forever and forever with him, world without end.

Our hope is always resurrection and not death .

Peace always and grace multiplied.

Bidam: Ijawkid and frosbel can't even cast out a single devil..let them talk about their experiences out their in the field for us to learn from..you people shouldn't waste time arguing with them..they are what we call 'false brethren'.

False teachers/Prophets/Apostates/Reprobates

Pygru:
False teachers/Prophets/Apostates/Reprobates

Let the house decide who is a false teacher



[img]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIKo5dzpNoA8vADP5W0EuK1iryQsCKvK_L2h2EkQDHXsS66Pz_[/img]

Bidam: you are still in the dark cocerning scriptures. Jesus said "I am the ressurection and the Life"..Paul clearly understood this mystery thats why his prayers were "that i might know Him and the power of his ressurection".. We are already ressurected with him bro.we are just waiting for Him to receive us and for us to embrace the sunshine of immortality because life on earth is prison..we are waiting for others to also join us cos without them we can't be perfected.

We can clearly read the dangerous heresy above as promoted by Bidam, that the resurrection has now past and the rest is a formality , and my response below.


"17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some." - 2 Timothy 2: 17- 18

Tell me, are you guys really born again ?

Bidam: Ijawkid and frosbel can't even cast out a single devil..let them talk about their experiences out their in the field for us to learn from..you people shouldn't waste time arguing with them..they are what we call 'false brethren'.

lol....ask the pastors who claim to cast out demons today to come tell us why naija is still like this after all the demon casting.......

the people iI gather with when iI worship God are nt demon possessed persons.....ask yourselves why most of the persons in your churches are always demon possessed....?.......something must b wrong...

Pygru:
False teachers/Prophets/Apostates/Reprobates

yeye.....

Bidam: If deaath is the only just punishment for the wicked then why did Jesus has to die for sinners?...even david gave a account of how righteous me die quick deaths why the wicked take longer time to die..does that mean God is unjust? The truth is the penalty of sin is 'spiritual death'(total alienation from God)..and not physical death as you would have us believe. There are men who are alive but are dead corpse walking as far as am concerned..they do don't carry God's glory . Thank you.

Jesus came and died for all (all Adams descendants are sinners) so we can have life if we put faith in him. Jesus by offering up his perfect life, paid the price or ransom for our enslavement to sin as descendants of Adam. Without someone paying that ransom, we'd all die without any hope- which is the condition of the unrepentant sinner. The wages of sin is physical death. When Adam sinned, God told him he'd die. He'd return to dust (Gen3:19). Was God also referring to 'spiritual dust'?

This is basic Christianity. The whole Bible is about how sin, suffering and death came through one man's disobedience and how God lovingly made a way out for Adam's doomed descendants by having a perfect man come to our rescue.

Spiritual death -absence of spirituality- is not hereditary. But physical death is. Adam passed on physical death to all.

Romans 5:12 'Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned'--

Romans 5:17 'For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 5:18 'Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people'.

Death is the only just penalty for sin. Without Christ, we all die to nothingness. With faith in Christ, we have the hope of eternal life. Very clear really, if you drop bogus traditions and believe the Bible's refreshingly simple message.

frosbel:

"17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some." - 2 Timothy 2: 17- 18


Be careful what you preach.

you edited the spiritual context i said abi?never knew you can quote scriptures literally to buttress your heretic teachings..did i say the resurrection had TAKEN PLACE? this is what i said from scriptures..And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,eph 2:6.and this is my post earlier. you are still in the dark cocerning scriptures. Jesus said "I am the ressurection and the Life"..Paul clearly understood this mystery thats why his prayers were "that i might know Him and the power of his ressurection"..

We are already ressurected with him bro.. in the spiritual context. .we are just waiting for Him to receive us and for us to embrace the sunshine of immortality because life on earth is prison..we are waiting for others to also join us cos without them we can't be perfected.

since you can subtly and mischievously edit my post to gain likes from your heretical friends i wonder what you can't do to the bible.your lies are exposed for all to see..thank God am on a computer right now.

ijawkid:



lol....ask the pastors who claim to cast out demons today to come tell us why naija is still like this after all the demon casting.......

the people iI gather with when iI worship God are nt demon possessed persons.....ask yourselves why most of the persons in your churches are always demon possessed....?.......something must b wrong...

is casting out devils not in the bible? or ARE YOU AFRAID OF THEM? FORGET ABOUT NAIJA..THE WHOLE WORLD LIETH IN WICKEDNESS.

Frobel is very deceptive!
1. Editing posts.
2. He makes it hard for others to quote his posts sometimes.

Bidam: is casting out devils not in the bible? or ARE YOU AFRAID OF THEM? FORGET ABOUT NAIJA..THE WHOLE WORLD LIETH IN WICKEDNESS.

why should iI be afraid of demons...??...i have no dealings with them neither do iI associate with demons....



can you try casting out the demons in the bokoharam crew?...

Pygru: Frobel is very deceptive!
1. Editing posts.
2. He makes it hard for others to quote his posts sometimes.

He needs prayers,he is carnally minded.He has forgotten that we shall all ,one day, give account of all we have said and posted.

This is about life and death.Is more than mere arguments.
I just pray he realises what he is doing.

He has been steadfast of resent regarding his zeal to convert the catholic christian, but on this issue,I dont agree with him.

I pray that the grace of the Lord shall be granted unto us all to make heaven.

Bidam: you are still in the dark cocerning scriptures. Jesus said "I am the ressurection and the Life"..Paul clearly understood this mystery thats why his prayers were "that i might know Him and the power of his ressurection".. We are already ressurected with him bro..in the spiritual context..we are just waiting for Him to receive us and for us to embrace the sunshine of immortality because life on earth is prison..we are waiting for others to also join us cos without them we can't be perfected.

Bidam , you are turning out to be one dubious person.

I have reposted your quote as above for all and sundry to peruse.

You said " We are already ressurected with him bro..in the spiritual context..we are just waiting for Him to receive us and for us to embrace the sunshine of immortality because life on earth is prison."

and Paul replied you :

"men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some." - 2 Timothy 2:18

Only Jesus has resurrected , the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the last trump.

Either spiritually or physically , the bible does not support the false and dangerous notion that anyone has resurrected , other than JESUS.

In a bid to support your false tradition, you have leaving mistakes all over the place , spare yourself the embarrassment.

Pygru: Frobel is very deceptive!
1. Editing posts.
2. He makes it hard for others to quote his posts sometimes.

I quote in context posts , regarding the quotation of my posts, speak to the moderators , it's a known issue.

This is what the bible said about people like you :

"Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good," - 2 Timothy 3:3

enilove:

He needs prayers,he is carnally minded.He has forgotten that we shall all ,one day, give account of all we have said and posted.

I will stand by all I have said here on the last day.

frosbel:

Let the house decide who is a false teacher



[img]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIKo5dzpNoA8vADP5W0EuK1iryQsCKvK_L2h2EkQDHXsS66Pz_[/img]






We can clearly read the dangerous heresy above as promoted by Bidam, that the resurrection has now past and the rest is a formality , and my response below.


"17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. [b]They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some." - 2 Timothy 2: 17- 18

Tell me, are you guys really born again ?

Mr Frosbel, from the above quote our faith can be destroyed but God is always faithful. His faithfulness can't be distorted.
A perfect example is Abraham. He believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
His personal doubts in God's promises did not stop God from doing what He said He would do.

TroGunn: Jesus came and died for all (all Adams descendants are sinners) so we can have life if we put faith in him. Jesus by offering up his perfect life, paid the price or ransom for our enslavement to sin as descendants of Adam. Without someone paying that ransom, we'd all die without any hope- which is the condition of the unrepentant sinner. The wages of sin is physical death. When Adam sinned, God told him he'd die. He'd return to dust (Gen3:19). Was God also referring to 'spiritual dust'?

The bible never said "The wages of sin is physical death".Stop twisting scriptures. this is what the bible says. It says that "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6 :23). Death is used to describe our dead spiritual condition,

This is basic Christianity. The whole Bible is about how sin, suffering and death came through one man's disobedience and how God lovingly made a way out for Adam's doomed descendants by having a perfect man come to our rescue.

nobody is disputing this scriptural truth.

Spiritual death -absence of spirituality- is not hereditary. But physical death is. Adam passed on physical death to all.

that is a subtle lie from the pit of hell.lets look at What God who is Spirit said “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him;Gen 1:26. Adam lost his spirituality through disobedience.if NOT WHY WOULD JESUS BE CALLED THE LAST ADAM?

Romans 5:12 'Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned'--

Romans 5:17 'For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 5:18 'Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people'.

No one is in dispute of all these wonderful scriptures which are also pointing to this.. Ephesians 2:1-22 ESV

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Death is the only just penalty for sin. Without Christ, we all die to nothingness. With faith in Christ, we have the hope of eternal life. Very clear really, if you drop bogus traditions and believe the Bible's refreshingly simple message.

without Christ we are in crisis stop watering the gospel with the sleight cunning of men..It is NOT about traditions but scriptural realities. WE EARN DEATH by the SINS WE HAVE COMMITTED, just as you would earn wages from working a job... “For the WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH” (Romans 6:23). The Scriptures declare that those who die without CHRIST AS THEIR SAVIOR WILL DIE A SECOND DEATH as well as a first death. If you are NOT saved, you are already spiritually dead. You are simply awaiting your future home in hell, the second death. You need to do absolutely nothing to go to hell, but you must be born-again to go to heaven.

The Bible speaks of a second death... “But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in THE LAKE WHICH BURNETH WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: which is the SECOND DEATH” (Revelation 21:. “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the SECOND DEATH hath no power” (Revelation 20:6).

ijawkid:

why should iI be afraid of demons...??...i have no dealings with them neither do iI associate with demons....



can you try casting out the demons in the bokoharam crew?...

are you for real..JW + PRAYERLESSNESS=POWERLESSNESS

frosbel:

Bidam , you are turning out to be one dubious person.In a bid to support your false tradition, you have leaving mistakes all over the place , spare yourself the embarrassment.

I THINK AM DONE SPEAKING with a spiritual fool like you..am waiting for guys with biblical sense to debate with. BUT LEMME GIVE YOU A PIECE OF ADVICE “If you're right about Hell, I’ll just be dead and unconscious someday; But if the Bible is right about Hell, you’ll burn in hell-fire for ALL ETERNITY.” So which road am I safer on, the Jehovah’s Witnesses road or the Bibles? I’ll take the Bible road any day! “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the DAMNATION OF HELL?” (Matthew 23:33). “And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:46). If there is no consciousness in the grave of the dead, then how can one’s punishment be everlasting? The Bible must be taken at face value, it says what it means and means what it says. The Bible has much to say about hell. The Bible has more to say about hell than it does about heaven, read it for yourself.

Bidam: you are still in the dark cocerning scriptures. Jesus said "I am the ressurection and the Life"..Paul clearly understood this mystery thats why his prayers were "that i might know Him and the power of his ressurection".. We are already ressurected with him bro.we are just waiting for Him to receive us and for us to embrace the sunshine of immortality because life on earth is prison..we are waiting for others to also join us cos without them we can't be perfected.

"17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some." - 2 Timothy 2: 17- 18


Be careful what you preach.

Bidam: The bible never said "The wages of sin is physical death".Stop twisting scriptures. this is what the bible says. It says that "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6 :23). Death is used to describe our dead spiritual condition,

nobody is disputing this scriptural truth.
that is a subtle lie from the pit of hell.lets look at What God who is Spirit said “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him;Gen 1:26. Adam lost his spirituality through disobedience.if NOT WHY WOULD JESUS BE CALLED THE LAST ADAM?
No one is in dispute of all these wonderful scriptures which are also pointing to this.. Ephesians 2:1-22 ESV

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

without Christ we are in crisis stop watering the gospel with the sleight cunning of men..It is NOT about traditions but scriptural realities. WE EARN DEATH by the SINS WE HAVE COMMITTED, just as you would earn wages from working a job... “For the WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH” (Romans 6:23). The Scriptures declare that those who die without CHRIST AS THEIR SAVIOR WILL DIE A SECOND DEATH as well as a first death. If you are NOT saved, you are already spiritually dead. You are simply awaiting your future home in hell, the second death. You need to do absolutely nothing to go to hell, but you must be born-again to go to heaven.

The Bible speaks of a second death... “But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in THE LAKE WHICH BURNETH WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: which is the SECOND DEATH” (Revelation 21:. “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the SECOND DEATH hath no power” (Revelation 20:6).

Those who believe in Christ still die physically, even now. The reward of eternal life is yet future.

John 6:40 'For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." '
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 11:25 'Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;'

I ask again, when God told Adam he'd return to dust, was he speaking of physical dust or spiritual dust? Why do people die physically? Was that part of God's original plan? If Adam had not sinned, would he have still been told he'd return to dust?

Of course the Bible mentions 2nd death, signified by 'lake of fire'- final destruction for Satan, 'death', hell (grave), and any unrepentant after the 1000 years of Christ's of reign. Read Revelation well, including chapter 20. You'll see 2nd death comes after final resurrection, and even hell (Hades, grave) is also destroyed therein.

Of course those who have 'first resurrection' do not see 2nd death since they'll co-rule with Christ in heaven.

Rev 20:6 'Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years'.

After this first resurrection, comes the 2nd resurrection and then final destruction.

Rev20:13-15 13 'And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire'.


These verses of Revelation clearly shows the 'lake of fire' to mean 2nd or final death or removal for even death itself. After this 'There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."' Rev 21:4.

Refreshingly clear.

.

shdemidemi:

Mr Frosbel, from the above quote our faith can be destroyed but God is always faithful. His faithfulness can't be distorted.
A perfect example is Abraham. He believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
His personal doubts in God's promises did not stop God from doing what He said He would do.

THE WAY THE FOOL TWIST MY WORDS IS THE WAY HE TWIST THE BIBLE TO HIS DESTRUCTION.Resurrection is simply The act of rising from the dead or returning to life. The state of one who has returned to life.I SAID WE ARE RESURRECTED WITH CHRIST IN THE SPIRITUAL CONTEXT..AND HERE IS BIBLICAL EVIDENCES TO BUTTRESS THAT SPIRITUAL TRUTH.

Rom. 6:4 “We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”



Colossians 2:12-13 -- "having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions."

Through the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus, God the Father, "has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places" with our risen and enthroned Lord. Thus, raised up together and seated together in Heavenly places with Christ (Eph 2:5-7), through the grace of God, every believer has been elevated with Him to the right hand of God and can assume in our prayers the authoritative throne position of the Lord. Christ is the Head of the Church (Eph. 1:22; 5:23-24). Born-again believers are His body (Eph 1:22-23).


The spiritual reality of our joint-resurrection and joint-ascension with the Lord Jesus Christ occurs through our identification with Him with from His death all the way to His ascension (Rom 6:3-5Eph 2:1-6 ).

[quote author=Bidam] THE WAY THE FOOL TWIST MY WORDS IS THE WAY HE TWIST THE BIBLE TO HIS DESTRUCTION.Resurrection is simply The act of rising from the dead or returning to life. The state of one who has returned to life.I SAID WE ARE RESURRECTED WITH CHRIST IN THE SPIRITUAL CONTEXT..AND HERE IS BIBLICAL EVIDENCES TO BUTTRESS THAT SPIRITUAL TRUTH.

Trying to wriggle your way out of this one

We are not resurrected, resurrection is for the dead in Christ not for those who are alive.

Colossians 2:12-13 -- "having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions."

But this is not referring to dead people, no ? Paul was writing to believers who were alive at the time and his emphasis was on the finished work of Christ and it's impact in the life of a believer.

This in no way refers to a resurrection from the dead .

Through the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus, God the Father, "has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places" with our risen and enthroned Lord. Thus, raised up together and seated together in Heavenly places with Christ (Eph 2:5-7), through the grace of God, every believer has been elevated with Him to the right hand of God and can assume in our prayers the authoritative throne position of the Lord. Christ is the Head of the Church (Eph. 1:22; 5:23-24). Born-again believers are His body (Eph 1:22-23).

Again talking to the believers who were alive not those who were dead for GOD is not a GOD of the dead , but a God of the living.

The spiritual reality of our joint-resurrection and joint-ascension with the Lord Jesus Christ occurs through our identification with Him with from His death all the way to His ascension (Rom 6:3-5Eph 2:1-6 ).

Joint-resurrection You seem to be going deeper into error.

Resurrection is a future thing not a present thing.







Back to my question then , now that you have finished running round in circles with no satisfactory answer :

Explain John 14:3 in the context of where the dead in Christ are, Ola is struggling , in fact all of you have avoided this question, I wonder why.