^ +1

That is the uneducated assumption. It is important to know history so you can understand the factors that made the world turn out the way it is and not just assume your ancestors where idi[i]o[/i]ts.

I don't know if there is a curse, but i've always wondered why black people have been the face of slavery since antiquity.

Other races were the face of slavery as well in antiquity. It's just that they grew out of that earlier than we did.

Why this is the case isn't totally clear to me. I think it may be more than one factor - maybe a sufficient amount of wealth among the nationals of a group was a factor, and also religious unity across ethnic/national lines.

I can answer any historical questions about all of Africa and also give context

SmoothCrim: I can answer any historical questions about all of Africa and also give context

Why am I not surprised? A criminal trying to hijack another person's thread.

Here's an assignment for you. Tell us why the Kwararafa/Kororofa state invaded the Hausa at times and what the exact context was for those wars and tell us where exactly in the Sudan the Jukun came from and at what time (or if not the Sudan, where exactly the Jukun were before reaching their present location and when).

I have my own information and theories, but this will be just the first question to see if you can make good on your statement above.

PhysicsQED:

Why am I not surprised? A criminal trying to hijack another person's thread.

Here's an assignment for you. Tell us why the Kwararafa state invaded the Hausa at times and what the exact context was for those wars and tell us where exactly in the Sudan the Jukun came from and at what time (or if not the Sudan, where exactly the Jukun were before reaching their present location and when).

I have my own information and theories, but this will be just the first question to see if you can make good on your statement above.

The Hausa invaded Kwararafa because it was a weak state. The context of any of these invasions by the Hausa in Nigeria was to demonstrate ethnic superiority over what was then viewed as weak people.

The Jukun are not Sudanese in Origin. They are most related to neighboring Central Nigerians and their origin is not much different from their neighbors. Now, the forces of ethnogenesis has brought forth different ethnic groups but, go back a few 100 years and, these are the same people. The fake Sudanese origin is a myth created by clueless 1900's writers.

SmoothCrim:
The Hausa invaded Kwararafa because it was a weak state. The context of any of these invasions by the Hausa in Nigeria was to demonstrate ethnic superiority over what was then viewed as weak people.

I asked you why the Kwararafa successfully invaded the Hausa on multiple occasions as admitted by the Hausa themselves and you go off on some tangent that has no correspondence to the question? Bizarre.

The Jukun are not Sudanese in Origin. They are most related to neighboring Central Nigerians and their origin is not much different from their neighbors.

And what's the origin of their neighbors?

Anyway, I agree with them not being "Sudanese" in origin ethnically, but the question was more geographical - about what place further to the east they might have been in the past.

Remember that the Normans, a group of Scandinavian origin, were able to establish a kingdom all the way down in Italy when thinking about this claim about the Jukun. It's not totally impossible.

Now, the forces of ethnogenesis has brought forth different ethnic groups but, go back a few 100 years and, these are the same people. The fake Sudanese origin is a myth created by clueless 1900's writers.

Well, once again, I don't think they're of Sudanese origin either - whether in an ethnic or a geographical sense. But I wanted to know if you could give a stronger rebuttal/refutation of the idea that they were from some other place in the Sudan at an earlier point in time if you disagreed with the claim.

Anyway, I rate your answer a 1 out of 2. The first part of the response was trash, the second part was decent enough. A 50% grade.

PhysicsQED:

I asked you why the Kwararafa successfully invaded the Hausa on multiple occasions as admitted by the Hausa themselves and you go off on some tangent that has no correspondence to the question? Bizarre.



And what's the origin of their neighbors?

Anyway, I agree with them not being "Sudanese" in origin ethnically, but the question was more geographical - about what place further to the east they might have been in the past.

Remember that the Normans, a group of Scandinavian origin, were able to establish a kingdom all the way down in Italy when thinking about this claim about the Jukun. It's not totally impossible.



Well, once again, I don't think they're of Sudanese origin either - whether in an ethnic or a geographical sense. But I wanted to know if you could give a stronger rebuttal/refutation of the idea that they were from some other place in the Sudan at an earlier point in time if you disagreed with the claim.

Anyway, I rate your answer a 1 out of 2. The first part of the response was trash, the second part was decent enough. A 50% grade.

The real origin is not different from their neighbors as I said, if you simply look at their language you can get an idea of where they are from...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jukun_Takum_language

This is what also proves they are not Sudanese as their language is not even close to being classified as a Sudanese language. By how their language is classified they are not different from their neighbors

SmoothCrim:
The real origin is not different from their neighbors as I said, if you simply look at their language you can get an idea of where they are from...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jukun_Takum_language

This is what also proves they are not Sudanese as their language is not even close to being classified as a Sudanese language. By how their language is classified they are not different from their neighbors

Well, they are obviously not Sudanese in the modern sense, but as far as I can tell the descriptions of them as "Sudanic" were more about supposed cultural resemblances and geographical origin than ethnic or linguistic affinity with Sudanese people. And yes their language is Platoid, but as alluded to earlier, a Scandinavian group (Normans) and a German group (Lombards) came to speak Italian when they settled there. Language is a very good indicator of origin/affinity so I basically agree with your conclusion but I also realize that it's not always so clear cut.

Anyway, questions 2, 3 and 4 below.

(If you still believe you can answer any historical question about all of Africa and give the context, if not just ignore this).


Question 2:

The Jukun Kwararafa/Kororofa priest king was said to wear a brass disc on his crown and Kwararafa was an ancient center of bronze (probably brass, actually) casting (also a center of iron, silver and gold industries) according to Percy Amaury Talbot's ethnographic studies. Now when did the bronze or brass casting start and what was its full ceremonial/social significance?

Questions 3 & 4:

The Berber traveler Ibn Battuta makes a claim about a certain state named "Yufi" (he also calls it "Yuwi" at one point) that was one of the most powerful black kingdoms in his time according to his informants:

"Then the river flows to Yufi, which is one of the biggest cities of the blacks. Their sultan is one of their greatest Sultans. A white man cannot go there because they would kill him before he arrived there." - Ibn Battuta, 1352/1353

Now is this place actually Nupe or is it a Zimbabwean state called "Yufi"? Note that this "Yufi" wasn't one of the places in Africa that Ibn Battuta actually went to himself, but that he only collected information from informants about it.

a) the substitution of y for n sounds and of f for p sounds were occasionally made in some languages or by errors in pronunciation or writing, so Yufi could actually be Nupe (which was also called Nufe, Nyffe, Nife, etc.)

b) the author notes the gold dust that they (Yufi) trade, which corresponds to an actual Nupe tradition/history of trade in gold, but states that they trade in gold with Sofala, a place in southeastern Africa, in modern day Mozambique. While some other places immediately around Nupe had gold located in them as well, Nupe had traditions/history of trading in gold, which it's not clear the other states immediately around it did extensively. However, gold mining and trading in Zimbabwe in the past is well attested to as well.

c) Battuta specifically notes that the Niger river - which he designates the Nile (he perhaps believed it to be an extension of the Nile) throughout the text while giving descriptions of places in West Africa that actually surrounded the Niger river, not places in East Africa that surrounded the Nile - runs into the country/kingdom of "Yufi", corresponding perfectly with the fact that the Niger river does indeed run right through the kingdom of Nupe and the Nupe people's lands, but not through that of other potential candidates for the kingdom of "Yufi" in West Africa with a similar enough name.

However, if the "Nile" (Niger) river was actually confused with the Zambezi river in his account, then this would fit perfectly with it being a direct reference to a Zimbabwean state called Yufi (which may have been Great Zimbabwe) that traded gold with Sofala (a port belonging to the Mutapa/Monomotapa kingdom). Furthermore, he claims that this "Yufi" is only a months journey inland from Sofala.

d) The existence of a powerful Nupe state in the 14th century would appear to be confirmed by the Katsina chronicle's mention of a war between the Hausa under Muhammad Korau and the Nupe kingdom, which bordered Katsina. However, if Yufi were actually the kingdom of Zimbabwe, that would equally fit Battuta's description of the kingdom as having one of the biggest cities and having one of the greatest kings, since Zimbabwe was flourishing at that time.

Now the questions are,

Did he mean to indicate a Zimbabwean state called "Yufi", or the ancient Nupe state? The "Nile" river mentioned by him as flowing through "Yufi" is definitely actually the Niger from his descriptions of the places he says surround it and which it goes to, but the place (Sofala) he said Yufi traded with is definitely in southeastern Africa.

and

Why was Ibn Battuta told that they would kill any "white" man in their territory on sight? What was the context for their grudge against "whites"?


[Once again, I have my own ideas/theories, but I want to hear those of others.]

pleep: I'm not the smartest man in the word,

No argument here,

But could you tell us a bit about the the Ekiti Ondo conflict that led the to new Ekiti state?

^ Stumped. I have no knowledge on that subject. Throughout this thread i haven't had too extensivly research a topic and i intend to keep it that way

but if u have a less arcane question ill be happy to answer it if i can.

Okay o. LOL

^

^

Here's my question:
When ever the European expansionist empires encountered aboriginal populations they almost entirely wipe them out and take over their land. Did that happen in South America? Which South American aboriginal populations where "wiped out" and which remain. Why did those who survived remain.

^ good question, ill get to that tm.

Ok here's another question.

Which was the biggest (by land mass) African empire? What was its coverage at the height of its power? What lead to it's rise and fall?

Lord_Reed: Here's my question:
When ever the European expansionist empires encountered aboriginal populations they almost entirely wipe them out and take over their land. Did that happen in South America? Which South American aboriginal populations where "wiped out" and which remain. Why did those who survived remain.

The Europeans were never able to completely annihilate the indigenous population in any land they colonized. Except perhaps in Tazmania, were almost every single native was killed. In the most extreame circumstances the colonizers actually made a point to physically kill any natives on sight, (Australians were hunted for sport) in addition to exposing them to diseases they had no immunity too.

But other than australaisa, there is no other place were the indigenous populations even came close to being wiped out. In Asia the populations were too large, well defeneded, and immune to old world diseases to be wiped out. As for the Africans, they were also immune to most European diseases (except flu) and the populations were too large and usefull to be completely annihilated. However, In the south of the continent, were euro style farming is possible, total extermination was attempted by the Germans in something called the 'Nambian Genocide'. This was a concentration camp style extermination designed to free up farmland for German settlers, part of a German policy called Lebensraum 'living space.'

The population decrease in North and South America was drastic because of the lack of immunity and the large populations. Tecnochitlan, the capital of the Aztecs, was the biggest city in the world at the time, 5 times larger than Rome. After the Spanish arrival the population decreased by millions. Nevertheless, the only indegenous populations that were able to be completly wiped out were the ones that were small in the first place, like the native peoples of Argentina and those in the extreame south of the continent. The aboriginals that remained were assimilated into the Europeans as mestizos.

When a population is exposed to a new disease a miniature evolution occurs. Even in pre-colonial south american there were a few people who[i] were[/i] immune to smallpox, this is because of natural human mutations. When the disease was introcuded the people without this mutation died, while those few who were naturally immune survived and spread their genes. The disease itself then mutates, and those who were previously immune are not anymore. So eventually the South Americans were just as immune to smollpox as the Europeans, which is to say not very immune at all.

So are you saying that none of the South American aboriginals still exist as "pure stock"?

Dear friend Pleep:
I am a Uruguayan researcher. In a book of Pierre "Fatumbi" Verger, citing that the cult of Obatala had their origin in Igbo. It is also stated in that book, that Oduduwa, after the founding of Ile Ife, have begun a war against the Igbo and Obatala.
Some companions of the forum, have been illustrated about that Ife was never at war with the Igbo, that the worship of Obatala ever took place in Igbo territory ...
My question is this:
1. In what kingdom or town originated exactly the worship of Obatala
2. There are historical background of a war between that kingdom led by Obatala and Ifé?
I await your kind response, and of course thank you for your attention.

Ptolomeus: Dear friend Pleep:
I am a Uruguayan researcher. In a book of Pierre "Fatumbi" Verger, citing that the cult of Obatala had their origin in Igbo. It is also stated in that book, that Oduduwa, after the founding of Ile Ife, have begun a war against the Igbo and Obatala.
Some companions of the forum, have been illustrated about that Ife was never at war with the Igbo, that the worship of Obatala ever took place in Igbo territory ...
My question is this:
1. In what kingdom or town originated exactly the worship of Obatala
2. There are historical background of a war between that kingdom led by Obatala and Ifé?
I await your kind response, and of course thank you for your attention.

I know this is addressed to pleep, but I think I can give some insight on the relationship between Ife and the "Igbo" from what I've read from researchers/historians.

(And sorry for not responding to you in that other thread (about traditional Igbo religion), but I didn't want to prolong a discussion of an issue that was completely different from the subject of the thread.)

There are multiple accounts that I've come across that assert that the aboriginal residents/rulers of Ife were the Igbo/Ugbo subgroup of the Yoruba. As I said in that thread, the Yoruba seem to switch the letter i and u in some words, as is the case with Ife and Ufe, which refer to the same place but are sometimes called differently by different Yoruba. The Ugbo/Igbo Yoruba subgroup are part of a larger Yoruba subgroup called the Ilaje, and the Ugbo/Igbo Yoruba live in the modern Ondo state of western Nigeria.

I even came across a list online a long time ago of a list of the Ugbo Yoruba rulers of Ife, but I can't seem to find the list anymore. Anyway, here is some info on the Ugbo/Igbo Yoruba and the larger Yoruba group called Ilaje to which they belong:


"While the Ilajes have a shared history because of their historical interconnectivity, I focus on the Ugbo kingdom because it is the only oil-bearing community in the area. The Ugbo Kingdom is made up of 140 communities spread across the entire kingdom. The Ilajes occupy more than two thirds of the coastal belt in Ondo state and their major occupation is fishing. There are sixteen quarters in Ugbo, each representing a family, which is why they are referred to as Ejinedogun (“sixteen”) in the local dialect. Senior chiefs are called Dosun, and they constitute Olugbo-in-council, the highest decision- making body of the kingdom which is presided over by the king. These Ilaje communities view the Atlantic Ocean as significant for both its role as a source of income and also as an omen of one of the most important rituals of the Ilajes." - Omolade Adunbi (University of Michigan), "Mythic Oil: Resources, Belonging, and the Politics of Claim-Making Among The Ilaje Yorùbás of Nigeria"


"Imagining the “Wealthland”: Myth, Memory, and Divine Power

As this paper shows, the Ugbo1 people consider themselves to be the “original” inhabitants of Ile-Ife who were driven out as a result of interplay of power, political manipulation, and family disputes. The Ugbos interpret their loss of Ile-Ife as divine because their ancestors had promised an abundance of wealth. It is the realization of this divine promise by their ancestors that made the Ugbos embark on a journey in search of a particular “sign” that promises and manifest wealth. As many community members told me, this particular “sign” manifested itself when they migrated to what is today known as the Ugbo kingdom. The Atlantic Ocean, huge oil reserves, and other natural resources in this region today represent the manifestation of this sign. This section maps the Ugbos’ divinely ordained journey from Ile-Ife to the present location of the Ilaje people. I examine how this “sign” of wealth manifested itself, who led the Ugbos to their present location, and how this myth translates into a form of memory and divine knowledge for the Ugbo people." - Omolade Adunbi (University of Michigan), "Mythic Oil: Resources, Belonging, and the Politics of Claim-Making Among The Ilaje Yorùbás of Nigeria"



"Popular folk songs and divination are two key ways that Ugbo’s legitimize their claim of ownership to the area’s land, ocean, and natural resources. Popular folk songs serve as a daily legitimization of ownership claims. One such example is the tibe karufe, ule ti Oronmaken which literally means “From here (from Ugbo Kingdom) to Ile-Ife (the cradle of Yorùbá civilization), all land belongs to Oronmaken the founder of Ugbo Kingdom”. As Oba Mafimisebi explained, “The Oduduwa group migrated from the east and met the Ugbos at Ile-Ife. It took Oduduwa and his group of migrants almost fifteen years to learn our language and adapt to our culture.”

Other folk songs reinforce how Ugbo narratives privilege the abundance of oil and other natural resource in the area. One song goes thus: “tibe karufe, ule toronmaken” (“From here to Ife, all land belongs to Oronmaken”). This song precedes all traditional prayers, festivals, and meetings and is akin to starting a Christian prayer with the words “In the name of the Father…”. During the period that I stayed in Ilaje, I often saw elders and chiefs sing this folk song at the beginning of an important meeting or when receiving visitors.

Ifa divination is central to the ways in which Ilaje narrative of belonging shapes claims of resource ownership. Ifa, a system of divination traditional to the Yorùbá people of Southwest Nigeria, represents one Ugbo ritual that predates the arrival of the Oduduwa group at Ile-Ife and supports Ugbos’ claim not only to ownership of land and natural resources but also to Ile-Ife itself. - Omolade Adunbi (University of Michigan), "Mythic Oil: Resources, Belonging, and the Politics of Claim-Making Among The Ilaje Yorùbás of Nigeria"


You can download the entire article here (or you can search for the article on google and view it through google docs):

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&ved=0CGMQFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsitemaker.umich.edu%2Fethnicity_workshop%2Ffiles%2F%2520Adunbi.doc&ei=P0sIULL-KoOG2gWGoN3TBA&usg=AFQjCNEiMyGUFLmG6jxXWT6nIZHCN8ScHg


Here's an excerpt from another article (although the main focus of this article is about dance):

"Who are the Ilaje?

The name Ilaje refers to several sets of meaning that conjures the same identity. First, we refer to a Yoruba dialect, which according to Curwen (1937), is a jointly adopted language by the peoples of Mahin, Ugbo, Etikan and Ahere kingdoms of the then Okitipupa divisions of the Western Region of Nigeria. This view was further corroborated by the likes of Akinjogbin (2002), Smith (1988) and Atanda (1980) to mention just a few.

Curwen (1937:6-7) further hinted that the word Ilaje might in fact have been derived from the name of a certain sacred Oro-staff, which Oni Oghoduwa Oronmaken (of Ife) gave to Oronmaken (of Ugbo) his alleged son. Thus, it is believed in some Ilaje quarters that the decision to bear Ilaje was born out of the quest to show their submissions and belief in that totemic staff of unity as a symbol of their belief, worship and submission to the powers epitomised by the sacred ‘Ilaje-staff’ from Oghoduwa, This accounts more or less in the mandatory holding of horse whisks by people that are said to be representing the Ilaje people at any given time, the king and/ or the dancers in most of the dance cultures of the Ilajes. The horse whisk is a symbol of the Opa Ilaje (Ilaje staff) and being in possession of it is like being in a position to enjoy all sorts of privileges in the land. It grants one, immunity of a kind, as long as the bearer(s) hold on to the horse whisk.

Another strong view is that Ilaje means the “land of paddle” as it is best to pronounce it “Ile-Aje”, where ‘Ile’ refers to land and ‘Aje’ implies paddle. Largely, it becomes rather impossible to fault most of these claims as they are all being linked to the ecological, geographical and cultural factors that characterise or define the Ilajes’ places of abode. This brings us to a third meaning of the word Ilaje, which according to Curwen is literally translated to be “we have riches and enjoy them” (Curwen 1937:5). Putting it across in a more direct order, Egboworomo (1999:29) sees it as implying “enjoying ones riches”.

Though they are widely travelled and largely scattered, the Ilajes are a people who do not take their root with levity (Egboworomo 1999:52). Besides this is an ethnic group that can be considered ‘ethno-aquatic’1 in nature as they are mostly found living in the extreme south of Ondo state, Nigeria, which is an area considered to be of creeks and rain forests. The people’s civilisations, political structures, economy, history, traditions and cultural projections are seen as cultural identities, which hitherto, are tailored and conditioned by the aquatic nature of their geographical environment." - Felix Damilola Emoruwa (University of Ilorin), "Form and Meaning in "Biripo" Dance of the Ilaje in Ondo State"

Here's the entire article (it's the second article, below the article on dance and theater and it's titled 'Form and Meaning in "Biripo" Dance of the Ilaje in Ondo State'):

http://www.unilorin.edu.ng/publications/emoruwafd/danceandlight.htm

^ not a problem at all, i was actually going to recommend that question to you.

Lord_Reed: So are you saying that none of the South American aboriginals still exist as "pure stock"?

Not all all, they are many pure South American tribes, but they are usually in remote areas. The highest concentrations of pure aboriginals can be found in places like Guatamala or the amazon rain forest.

These tribes were able to remain untouched because even though the Europeans claimed all of south american they really didn't control all of it, and never met the natives that lived in some of the remote areas. As for the pure natives of Brazil, they were so isolated they don't even have immunity to European diseases.

An example are the Xingu in the amazon, they live almost completely naked, they same way humans lived 30k years ago.

@PhysicsQED

Dear friend.
I want to thank you especially for your dedication and seriousness.
The real reason of the forum is just that, share knowledge, be mutually enriched.

I do not speak English, so I'll have to translate and read very carefully your wonderful article. Also read the links.

But in the first instance, I gather that comes from the east, and founded . Later, Oduduwa he moved to Igbo (Ugbo-), where they the yoruba finally settle the Yoruba of Ilé Ifé. There is thus no evidence of any war Ugbo- Yoruba, but on the contrary, it is the same ethnic group.
This makes me think about the following:
If the Yoruba of Ilé Ifé worship Orisa , and is they who are set to Ugbo-, why not Ugbo- continued worship Orisa worship and instead, takes a completely different religion.
Finally, as I would ask you: the original cult Obatala was Ugbo-?

I deeply appreciate your kind attention.
You can count on me for anything you deem necessary.
A friendly hug!
Your friend of Uruguay:

Ptolomeus

pleep:
The Europeans were never able to completely annihilate the indigenous population in any land they colonized. Except perhaps in Tazmania, were almost every single native was killed. In the most extreame circumstances the colonizers actually made a point to physically kill any natives on sight, (Australians were hunted for sport) in addition to exposing them to diseases they had no immunity too.

But other than australaisa, there is no other place were the indigenous populations even came close to being wiped out. In Asia the populations were too large, well defeneded, and immune to old world diseases to be wiped out. As for the Africans, they were also immune to most European diseases (except flu) and the populations were too large and usefull to be completely annihilated. However, In the south of the continent, were euro style farming is possible, total extermination was attempted by the Germans in something called the 'Nambian Genocide'. This was a concentration camp style extermination designed to free up farmland for German settlers, part of a German policy called Lebensraum 'living space.'

The population decrease in North and South America was drastic because of the lack of immunity and the large populations. Tecnochitlan, the capital of the Aztecs, was the biggest city in the world at the time, 5 times larger than Rome. After the Spanish arrival the population decreased by millions. Nevertheless, the only indegenous populations that were able to be completly wiped out were the ones that were small in the first place, like the native peoples of Argentina and those in the extreame south of the continent. The aboriginals that remained were assimilated into the Europeans as mestizos.

When a population is exposed to a new disease a miniature evolution occurs. Even in pre-colonial south american there were a few people who[i] were[/i] immune to smallpox, this is because of natural human mutations. When the disease was introcuded the people without this mutation died, while those few who were naturally immune survived and spread their genes. The disease itself then mutates, and those who were previously immune are not anymore. So eventually the South Americans were just as immune to smollpox as the Europeans, which is to say not very immune at all.

Dear friend Pleep.
I, like Uruguayan (South American) I applaud your exposure. Has been excellent.
Indeed, in general, South American Indians were not totally extinguished by the European invaders. The Indians were decimated, but they were not annihilated. The final annihilation of the Indians, usually due to post-independence wars, which the Indians were forced to fight, occupying the front rows.
In Uruguay, the last groups of Indians were scheduled to talk, and instead were ambushed and killed.
In Argentina, blacks and Indians topped the ranks in the war against Paraguay ...
It is important to note one transcendent fact.
the independence of the American countries, do not get the landowners (the Indians), but the descendants of European invaders themselves.
Much could be written about it.

I hope my comment helps.

A warm hug to all!

Ptolomeus: Dear friend.
I want to thank you especially for your dedication and seriousness.
The real reason of the forum is just that, share knowledge, be mutually enriched.

I do not speak English, so I'll have to translate and read very carefully your wonderful article. Also read the links.

But in the first instance, I gather that comes from the east, and founded . Later, Oduduwa he moved to Igbo (Ugbo-), where they the yoruba finally settle the Yoruba of Ilé Ifé. There is thus no evidence of any war Ugbo- Yoruba, but on the contrary, it is the same ethnic group.

Well what the article says is that the Ugbo Yoruba traditionally believe they were the original rulers of Ife and that their group lost power in Ife to another group through political intrigue . Then the Ugbo Yoruba moved further away, toward the ocean, where they found a new place to reside. This place is where the Ugbo Yoruba are today. On Oduduwa, they were saying in the article that he came from the east to Ife, which the Ugbo were already ruling over at the time.

To the best of my knowledge (which is limited), the idea of a war between the Ugbo/Igbo Yoruba and the group that replaced them seems to come from the Yoruba story or legend of a woman named Moremi. In that account, Moremi marries the king of the "Igbo" (Ugbo) in order to discover secrets about the Ugbo which she can give to her people to help them defeat the Ugbo. In that story, the Ugbo were said to be attacking Moremi's people and were enemies with Moremi's people.

Whether there actually was a war is anyone's guess though. I don't know whether the Ugbo were actually overthrown militarily or whether they lost power in Ife by being politically outmaneuvered, and I wouldn't be able to provide any evidence in favor of either of these two options.

This makes me think about the following:
If the Yoruba of Ilé Ifé worship Orisa , and is they who are set to Ugbo-, why not Ugbo- continued worship Orisa worship and instead, takes a completely different religion.

Well, the Ugbo Yoruba traditionally do worship Orisa, to the best of my knowledge, though they seem to have some unique variants and names, such as "Umale okun"/"Malokun" rather than "Olokun" for example. The traditional religious practices of the Ugbo Yoruba seem to be similar to those of the other Yoruba groups and not a completely different religion.

Finally, as I would ask you: the original cult Obatala was Ugbo-?

Sorry, but this is something I really am unable to answer and would not know about. I don't know much about the origin of Obatala worship. You would probably need to reach out to actual experts on Yoruba history and religion to get a good answer on this.

I deeply appreciate your kind attention.
You can count on me for anything you deem necessary.
A friendly hug!
Your friend of Uruguay:

Ptolomeus

Thanks. Glad I could be of some help.

@Physics
I'm really excited for your help!
I am grateful to you, your good faith, and kindness!
I reiterate to you my disposal for whatever you deem necessary.

A fraternal embrace

Never heard of Ugbo Yoruba lol

Physics, are they culturally Yoruba? I heard that the Yoruba group in Anambra (I think) who clearly speak Yoruba don't consider themselves Yoruba.

Yoruba_Omoge: Never heard of Ugbo Yoruba lol

Physics, are they culturally Yoruba?

As far as I can tell, as an outsider, yeah they are.

I heard that the Yoruba group in Anambra (I think) who clearly speak Yoruba don't consider themselves Yoruba.

I think you mean the Olukumi of Delta state. I don't know what they consider themselves to be. I guess you'd have to find some of them and ask them whether they consider themselves Yoruba or not to find out.

Lord_Reed: Ok here's another question.

Which was the biggest (by land mass) African empire? What was its coverage at the height of its power? What lead to it's rise and fall?

Still waiting for an answer.

PhysicsQED:

As far as I can tell, as an outsider, yeah they are.



I think you mean the Olukumi of Delta state. I don't know what they consider themselves to be. I guess you'd have to find some of them and ask them whether they consider themselves Yoruba or not to find out.

Thanks.

For extensive details, I'll also ask an insider.

Lord_Reed: Ok here's another question.

Which was the biggest (by land mass) African empire? What was its coverage at the height of its power? What lead to it's rise and fall?

Songhai was the biggest, it stretched from Gambia to Niger. They made most of their money trough trade, things like salt, gold, and crafts.

Songhai started off as a vassal state of Mali, but when that kingdom began to decline they took their independence, administering their new empire in much the same way Mali did. In the late 1500's They were attacked and conquered by Morroco, the Berbers were running out of money and felt that Mali was giving them unnecessary trade competition. After taking Songhai, the Morrocans soon left, either because they couldnt rule to kingdom, or only intended to destroy it. This was the start of the west African dark age.

When i first researched this there were almost no articles on this battle online, but now they have a very detailed description on Wikipedia:

In October 1590, he (the king on Morroco) dispatched a force of 1,500 light cavalry and 2,500 infantry, many of whom were equipped with arquebuses. The command he entrusted to Judar Pasha, a Spanish eunuch who had been captured as a child. The army traveled with a transport train of 8,000 camels, 1,000 packhorses, 1,000 stablemen, and 600 laborers; they also transported eight English cannons.

The Songhai army awaited Judar's force near Tondibi, a village just north of Gao (the capital). Though the Songhai had a powerful cavalry, they lacked the Moroccan's gunpowder weapons

In March 1591, the armies met. After an initial cavalry skirmish, Judar maneuvered his arquebusiers into place and opened fire with both arquebuses and cannons. At last only the rearguard, a unit of brave and resolute men remained, facing the Moroccans who they fought in hand to hand combat until they were killed.


Other print accounts i read say that the entire army routed once the Morrocans open fire on them. In their defense the horses and men had never heard something as loud as gun-powder, but this was the most shameful battle in African history. The Songhai outnumbered the morrocans more than 4 to 1.