I believe that in which is popularly termed as “God” in theory transcends race, sex and culture however in practice the image of “God” has often been manipulated thus promoting certain demographics.

Religion is a reflection of the society it was conceived and many being born of a patriarchal society exerts much masculine relevance from its laws to its deity.

Monotheism erects a singular image of a god; one that is usually a masculine authoritative figure.

Polytheism on the other hand containing multiple gods features both a masculine and feminine presence within its spiritual council. Although the supreme god is usually masculine the inclusion of a feminine content could be seen to accord females some spiritual relevance.
Perhaps such seeming equality is only relative.

Does polytheism contain less bias?
Does polytheism cater to equality more?

I don't think so, but who I am I to say such a thing. Often it promotes inequality as the Husband often treats one wife better than the other. Human beings are flawed by nature.

^^^
Lol are you referring to polygamy?

However personally I don't think it necessarily does either.

emöfine2: I believe that in which is popularly termed as “God” in theory transcends race, sex and culture however in practice the image of “God” has often been manipulated thus promoting certain demographics.

Religion is a reflection of the society it was conceived and many being born of a patriarchal society exerts much masculine relevance from its laws to its deity.

Monotheism erects a singular image of a god; one that is usually a masculine authoritative figure.

Polytheism on the other hand containing multiple gods features both a masculine and feminine presence within its spiritual council. Although the supreme god is usually masculine the inclusion of a feminine content could be seen to accord females some spiritual relevance.
Perhaps such seeming equality is only relative.

Does polytheism contain less bias?
Does polytheism cater to equality more?

First of all, there is no sex attributed to God in Islam (that is the only way of life , i can talk of).

Like Allah says in the Quran (rough translation): There is nothing comparable to him(Surah 112:4)

However the Quran was revealed in the Arabic Language : “Verily this is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. With it came down the Faithful Spirit to your heart – so that you may be among those who give warning – in a clear Arabic tongue.” [Sûrah al-Shu`arâ’: 192-195]

It follows that it is in conformity with the Arabic language; There is no neutral equivalent pronoun like 'It' in the Arabic language. (Even though 'IT' is not appropriate in the english language to describe beings with such knowledge, power and will). Whenthe gender of the subject is unknown or when the subject is plural (includes male and female), the masculine pronoun is used. It is the default pronoun in the arabic language.

Female pronouns are used exclusively for females. 'she' can therefore not be used to refer to Allah because then it will be specifying a gender.

As muslims, we do not attribute any gender, race or tribe to Allah, because he is far above all of that.

I am not a practicer of any spiritual concept besides christianity(I am also not mainstream/conventional christian), so i cannot tell whether the polytheistic religions have more equal societies. But to the best of my knowledge, all traditional and modern societies are patriarchal whether mono or polytheistic. So my take on this is that nature is structured like that. The male of all species defines "territories to claim & dominate", females naturally yield to the males(not just about physical strength). So, no matter how much equality a society might have, it's values still seem to be defined by it's males.

tbaba1234:

First of all, there is no sex attributed to God in Islam (that is the only way of life , i can talk of).

Like Allah says in the Quran (rough translation): There is nothing comparable to him(Surah 112:4)

However the Quran was revealed in the Arabic Language : “Verily this is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. With it came down the Faithful Spirit to your heart – so that you may be among those who give warning – in a clear Arabic tongue.” [Sûrah al-Shu`arâ’: 192-195]

But if there's no gender neutral term in Arabic surely there are plural terms.
Anyway that could be accorded to various faiths as well. But I wasn’t implying that god was a male or that some believers are worshipping a male figure that’s why I specifically stressed the term masculine which however does have male connotations. And I suspect that some people regard the chief pronoun to be masculine so such language was perhaps meant to be analogous. But representing "God" as a “He” makes it seem as though man is the closest that there is to God - but I gather that's more so as an authoritative figure than physical form.

It follows that it is in conformity with the Arabic language; There is no neutral equivalent pronoun like 'It' in the Arabic language. (Even though 'IT' is not appropriate in the english language to describe beings with such knowledge, power and will). Whenthe gender of the subject is unknown or when the subject is plural (includes male and female), the masculine pronoun is used. It is the default pronoun in the arabic language.

Female pronouns are used exclusively for females. 'she' can therefore not be used to refer to Allah because then it will be specifying a gender.

Hmm really? If the Arabic language accords Earth, Universe, Nature etc a gender what pronoun is thus used?

As muslims, we do not attribute any gender, race or tribe to Allah, because he is far above all of that.

The fact that "He" is typically called "Allah" betrays a partial identity don't you think?

emöfine2:
Does polytheism contain less bias?
Does polytheism cater to equality more?

Not necessarily so. The truth is that we really have no way of knowing for sure.
Personally, I think that neither monotheism nor polytheism have any discernible role to play in the gender equality/inequality.

okeyxyz: I am not a practicer of any spiritual concept besides christianity(I am also not mainstream/conventional christian), so i cannot tell whether the polytheistic religions have more equal societies. But to the best of my knowledge, all traditional and modern societies are patriarchal whether mono or polytheistic. So my take on this is that nature is structured like that. The male of all species defines "territories to claim & dominate", females naturally yield to the males(not just about physical strength). So, no matter how much equality a society might have, it's values still seem to be defined by it's males.

I disagree. Not all societies are/were patriarchal and my question wasn't whether polytheism created "equal societies" but if such societies were relatively balanced. I do understand that patriachal societies could have adhered to Polytheism thus still exerting much masculine relevance i.e. the supreme god usually being masculine.
But since polytheism includes a feminine content within its spiritual council could this be seen to accord females some spiritual relevance?
Can female’s identify more with some of the deities/qualities?
Does it eliminate some potential bias? etc...

Mr_Anony:

Not necessarily so. The truth is that we really have no way of knowing for sure.
Personally, I think that neither monotheism nor polytheism have any discernible role to play in the gender equality/inequality.

Interesting...but do you think that the images of "God" perhaps affects how each gender is regarded in society whether conciously or sub-conciously?
Or don't you think that the images of "God" reflects the place of men and women in the world?

emöfine2:

Interesting...but do you think that the images of "God" perhaps affects how each gender is regarded in society whether conciously or sub-conciously?
Or don't you think that the images of "God" reflects the place of men and women in the world?

Again I'll say that results of that are inconclusive. We simply cannot properly relate the two.
In ancient Greece, there were a myriad of gods both male and female yet women were still seen as inferior members of the society. At the same time period in amongst the Hebrews with one God, women were also regarded as lesser members of the society.
Amongst Nigerian tribal religions with so many gods they had, they treated their women with less respect than their colonial masters who had one God. So you see, It is impossible to draw any direct links between the number of gods a people serve and their gender equality.
If you have a stronger point other than merely your opinion then please point us to it.

See English may be black and white but Arabic is 1080i High definition. (quote from suhaib webb) It is so true.

words in the Arabic language have genders, either male or female but it is not that straight forward and it does nor signify sex necessarily. Here's a summary below of how it works:

Gender Distinctions in Arabic

Semantic Gender
Semantic gender is determined by the meaning of a noun. For example, boys and girls, and men and women will have different biological gender. According to semantic gender, the words حامل (pregnant) and بنت (girl) are feminine, where as ملائكة (angels) and the noun معقبات at (13:11:2) above are both masculine. Words such as كراسي (chairs) have no semantic gender. The possible values for semantic gender are masculine, feminine or none.

Morphemic Gender
Morphemic gender (also known as illusory gender) specifies the form of the morpheme which is used to construct the word. The ta-marbuta and āt suffix are feminine morphemes. The suffixes ūn and īn are masculine. This means that the word خليفة (Caliph) is morphemically feminine (feminine in form) although semantically masculine (masculine in meaning). The two possible values for morphemic gender are masculine or feminine.

Grammatical Gender
Grammatical gender is also known as functional gender, and determines how words such as nouns and adjectives function syntactically. The rules which determine gender agreement differ according morphological features such as part-of-speech, plurality and rationality. Two prominent syntactic constructions which are relevant to gender agreement are adjectives and numbers:

For adjectives, singular nouns agree in semantic gender if this is masculine or feminine (but not if the gender is none), or they agree with morphemic gender if semantic gender is none. Plural noun rules for agreement use the feature of rationality (عاقل or غير عاقل). Rational plurals agree with semantic gender but irrational plurals always take feminine singular adjectives. This is why كراسي (masculine plural) takes كبيرة (feminine singular) as an adjective.
The gender polarity (reverse gender agreement) of numbers is based on the singular form of the word regardless of the morphemic gender of its plural. For example خمسة سجلات (five folders) because سجل is masculine, and خمس مكتبات (five libraries) because مكتبة is feminine.

http://corpus.quran.com/documentation/gender.jsp

Mr_Anony:
Again I'll say that results of that are inconclusive. We simply cannot properly relate the two.
In ancient Greece, there were a myriad of gods both male and female yet women were still seen as inferior members of the society. At the same time period in amongst the Hebrews with one God, women were also regarded as lesser members of the society.

Mr Anony, this topic is not about the number of gods but about the inclusion of an obvious feminine content within a spiritual council. I used polytheism as a comparison not necessarily because polytheism has multiple gods but because there is a feminine presence in their godly assembly. If there was a monotheistic deity that in addition reflects a feminine content and not solely a masculine one then I would have used such for comparison. So you see the number of gods is less important than the content of the god(s).

Amongst Nigerian tribal religions with so many gods they had, they treated their women with less respect than their colonial masters who had one God. So you see, It is impossible to draw any direct links between the number of gods a people serve and their gender equality.
If you have a stronger point other than merely your opinion then please point us to it.

Is this another generalization…the funny thing is in the “Nigerian tribal religions” as you so sophistically put it…there were some systems were women held a high position i.e. priestess. Whilst in former colonial nations women are still contending to hold leadership positions in some churches.
Secular equality is different from “religious” equality.

men pee standing up-women pee sitting down

women bleed once a month-men dont

there is no such thing as equality.
even amongst men there is no equality. you gotta learn to play your role Woman. get in where you fit in. and i say this respectfully.

An Atheist answer is i dont know because there is no God

emöfine2:

Mr Anony, this topic is not about the number of gods but about the inclusion of an obvious feminine content within a spiritual council. I used polytheism as a comparison not necessarily because polytheism has multiple gods but because there is a feminine presence in their godly assembly. If there was a monotheistic deity that in addition reflects a feminine content and not solely a masculine one then I would have used such for comparison. So you see the number of gods is less important than the content of the god(s).

I understood what you meant but my argument remains that having female gods did not have any direct relationship to the status of women in their societies.

emöfine2: Is this another generalization…the funny thing is in the “Nigerian tribal religions” as you so sophistically put it…there were some systems were women held a high position i.e. priestess. Whilst in former colonial nations women are still contending to hold leadership positions in some churches.

let me get you right. Are you talking about the status of women within the religion itself or society at large?
Because if that is the case then we would be having a non-debate because it simply follows that a female god would have a priestess and will be concerned with women affairs, but this wouldn't be representing the religion as a whole but a section of it that caters to women in particular much like you might have women groups in a monotheist setting being led by a woman, again as a monotheistic parallel to polytheistic priestesses, we would have nuns and prophetesses.

My point simply is that I am yet to see any direct relationship between monotheism/polytheism and gender equality.

Secular equality is different from “religious” equality.

I don't think I quite understand what you meant by this sentence

didnt mean to sound vulgar LOL but you have to admit that EQUALITY is an illusion that can never be realized. heck in this gentile world we are living in, amongst men the black man is closer to the bottom of the pile. the white man is the king of the hill. and this is amongst men. so i think we should just each embrace our roles and observe them diligently without jostling egos. i will tell you something though, when the kingdom is established on earth the black man will be the king of the hill and the black woman his queen will be by his side, and the white man will be the bottom of the pile. he will be the servant. so says the bible.

tbaba1234: See English may be black and white but Arabic is 1080i High definition. (quote from suhaib webb) It is so true.

words in the Arabic language have genders, either male or female but it is not that straight forward and it does nor signify sex necessarily. Here's a summary below of how it works:

Gender Distinctions in Arabic....

http://corpus.quran.com/documentation/gender.jsp

Informative...thanks for sharing although you did bypass my last question.

buzugee:
there is no such thing as equality.
even amongst men there is no equality.

And I don't disagree however I would have thought given the context it was apparent what I meant by "equality".

"Equality" in the sense as equally respecting each others differences.

Mr_Anony: let me get you right. Are you talking about the status of women within the religion itself or society at large?
Because if that is the case then we would be having a non-debate because it simply follows that a female god would have a priestess and will be concerned with women affairs, but this wouldn't be representing the religion as a whole but a section of it that caters to women in particular much like you might have women groups in a monotheist setting being led by a woman, again as a monotheistic parallel to polytheistic priestesses, we would have nuns and prophetesses.

My point simply is that I am yet to see any direct relationship between monotheism/polytheism and gender equality.

Okay let me clarify. I believe societal structure i.e patriarchy does affect the standing of each gender in society and religion being a product of society reflects some of that model. For example a religion born in a patriarchal society is bound to favour men and that is certainly not divine as so much as culturally influenced.
And for the last time I am stressing on masculine and feminine content not on any deities supposed gender. My topic is not observing "female" gods! but gods or godly assemblies that include in addition feminine content so that there is an encompassing representation. And whether this promotes the spiritual value of feminine beings (females) in such society and as a result does this cater to a more balanced status between the genders.

I suppose it would have been better if I had posed my question as:

Does particular theological constructs affect human status in society - (but of course factoring the structure of those societies which no doubt will have an affect on how the deities and laws are translated).

And no your parallel is off. A nun is not in a leadership role over the congregation...no doubt that is a particular role but the roles I was making reference to are the higher roles in fact the highest such as those held by Bishops etc..women allegedly don't have spiritual authority over males in church for example so you are not getting my point or you are using a skewed analogy. That is partly why I asked this question. If these deities had not only masculine content would it have been possible for another that is not a masculine being (male) to hold the pinnacle position in church?

I don't think I quite understand what you meant by this sentence

You compared how women were treated in traditional Nigerian cultures, cultures that perhaps were polytheistic ...with that of how women were treated in former colonial nations that were monotheistic.
Thus my response. At least you said that women in colonial nations were treated relatively better....relative is the operative word.
But despite their seemingly better treatment which was largely displayed in their secular setting they in comparison to other native cultures had no clout in the religious systems.

emöfine2:

Informative...thanks for sharing although you did bypass my last question.



And I don't disagree however I would have thought given the context it was apparent what I meant by "equality".

"Equality" in the sense as equally respecting each others differences.

we respect each others differences in nigeria. patience jonathan, okonjo iweala, and a million other women are looked up to in nigeria. not the case in afghan. matta fact an afghan woman got put to death the other day for exercising her right to use her vayjayjay how she saw fit

Hello my dear friend:
I would like to give a humble opinion.
First, to emphasize that not all religions studied by English missionaries, and defined as "polytheists" are actually that: polytheists. Many of the studies conducted by the English missionaries are riddled with errors and influenced by their own beliefs.
I understand that the question raised has three important aspects:
1. Equal rights for men and women.
2. Discrimination between men and women.
3. Equal male-female roles
Develop.
1. Equality of rights between men and women should be, and indeed is referred to in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
2. Not justify any discrimination for sexual purposes. I think we all agree that racial discrimination should be punished. There is no difference between racial and sexual discrimination.
3. Here we reach a point of contention. First we have accepted that men and women should have equal rights, and not for discrimination. Now In social life, we understand that the woman of the house is the one who cut the trees to feed the fire, while the husband kitchen. That's part of the structure or organization of the family. The problem occurs when we are talking about religious functions, in which certain grounds (for reasons of religious weight) did not allow a woman (or man) perform a task.
In traditional religion, there are tasks of great importance, which can only be done by women, and in turn, tasks can be performed only by men. But that does not enter the field of discrimination, but is explained by the essence of each sex and its relationship to the task. In fact, both a man and a woman can access the highest office.
We are not talking here of denying something to the woman or man as a discriminatory act, but certain tasks must be performed by persons of either sex.
A clear example occurred with the cult of IFA.
Traditionally, the figure of Babalawo was male. That did not involve any discrimination for women, as there were groundless reasons why a woman could not access the oracle.
Instead, it was a unique feature for women of Apetebi, no man could hold office (discrimination? ... Not at all).
Eventually, bowing to pressure from the UN, Professor Walde Abimbola gave , declaring valid the charge of Iyaonifà. A political decision and calculating in terms of economic gains (in short, a shame).
In any case, I insist that we must differentiate between "discrimination" and "diversity" of tasks. Not the same one from the other.
I hope I explained correctly.
Best wishes!

emofine2:
Okay let me clarify. I believe societal structure i.e patriarchy does affect the standing of each gender in society and religion being a product of society reflects some of that model. For example a religion born in a patriarchal society is bound to favour men and that is certainly not divine as so much as culturally influenced.
And for the last time I am stressing on masculine and feminine content not on any deities supposed gender. My topic is not observing "female" gods! but gods or godly assemblies that include in addition feminine content so that there is an encompassing representation. And whether this promotes the spiritual value of feminine beings (females) in such society and as a result does this cater to a more balanced status between the genders...

your argument is partially true, you fail to also mention that religion influences culture as well, and probably more than than culture influencing religion. But let's suppose we take this strictly from the perspective "culture defines religion 100 percent", so what does this mean? How did we come about religion? simple: Religion was "invented" as a result of man's quest for answers, Answers to questions about his divine identity and purpose, About acquiring wealth, territory, status in society and protecting these positions, I can reasonable argue that these are male values & aspirations, therefore he invents schemes & religion to acquire & justify them. Now the question arises: "What do women want?" From evidence on ground, one can also argue that either women don't know what they want, thereby allowing men to rule over & dictate to them, or they want the same or different things as men but lack the will or know-how to assert their their aspirations, thus leading to the same end which is a patriarchal society. But Honestly, it remains a mystery to all men, We still continue to ask: "What do women want? how do you please a woman?", there are in-fact thousands of literature & business models built on deciphering the female mind. As long as women continue to remain a mystery, it's only gonna manifest in in all facets of society, religion included, that they will not be the definers & interpreters of societal values.

Now, I state again that my rant above is "assuming" that culture is 100 percent responsible for religion.

emöfine2: Informative...thanks for sharing although you did bypass my last question.

The fact that "He" is typically called "Allah" betrays a partial identity don't you think?

What do you mean a partial identity? He exists and is not bounded by the definitions we have in our world.

Ptolomeus:

A clear example occurred with the cult of IFA.
Traditionally, the figure of Babalawo was male. That did not involve any discrimination for women, as there were groundless reasons why a woman could not access the oracle.
Instead, it was a unique feature for women of Apetebi, no man could hold office (discrimination? ... Not at all).
Eventually, bowing to pressure from the UN, Professor Walde Abimbola gave , declaring valid the charge of Iyaonifà. A political decision and calculating in terms of economic gains (in short, a shame).
In any case, I insist that we must differentiate between "discrimination" and "diversity" of tasks. Not the same one from the other.
I hope I explained correctly.
Best wishes!

beautiful illustration.

okeyxyz:

beautiful illustration.

Thank you very much dear friend!

Ptolomeus, intriguing post.

okeyxyz: Now the question arises: "What do women want?" From evidence on ground, one can also argue that either women don't know what they want, thereby allowing men to rule over & dictate to them, or they want the same or different things as men but lack the will or know-how to assert their their aspirations, thus leading to the same end which is a patriarchal society. But Honestly, it remains a mystery to all men, We still continue to ask: "What do women want? how do you please a woman?", there are in-fact thousands of literature & business models built on deciphering the female mind. As long as women continue to remain a mystery, it's only gonna manifest in in all facets of society, religion included, that they will not be the definers & interpreters of societal values.

Now, I state again that my rant above is "assuming" that culture is 100 percent responsible for religion.

tbaba1234:



What do you mean a partial identity? He exists and is not bounded by the definitions we have in our world.

What I meant is that typically Muslim’s call their “God”...”Allah”...although the religion was founded in Arabia such specific employment awards the Muslim “God” an Arab identity imo.

emöfine2: Ptolomeus, intriguing post.

Why intriguing, dear friend? What is the doubt?

Ptolomeus:
Why intriguing, dear friend? What is the doubt?

I wasn't expressing doubt...I just found your post to be very interesting

emöfine2: ^^^
Lol are you referring to polygamy?

However personally I don't think it necessarily does either.

Sorry I was half-asleep when I wrote my response

emöfine2:

Okay let me clarify. I believe societal structure i.e patriarchy does affect the standing of each gender in society and religion being a product of society reflects some of that model. For example a religion born in a patriarchal society is bound to favour men and that is certainly not divine as so much as culturally influenced.
And for the last time I am stressing on masculine and feminine content not on any deities supposed gender. My topic is not observing "female" gods! but gods or godly assemblies that include in addition feminine content so that there is an encompassing representation. And whether this promotes the spiritual value of feminine beings (females) in such society and as a result does this cater to a more balanced status between the genders.

I suppose it would have been better if I had posed my question as:

Does particular theological constructs affect human status in society - (but of course factoring the structure of those societies which no doubt will have an affect on how the deities and laws are translated).

And no your parallel is off. A nun is not in a leadership role over the congregation...no doubt that is a particular role but the roles I was making reference to are the higher roles in fact the highest such as those held by Bishops etc..women allegedly don't have spiritual authority over males in church for example so you are not getting my point or you are using a skewed analogy. That is partly why I asked this question. If these deities had not only masculine content would it have been possible for another that is not a masculine being (male) to hold the pinnacle position in church?



You compared how women were treated in traditional Nigerian cultures, cultures that perhaps were polytheistic ...with that of how women were treated in former colonial nations that were monotheistic.
Thus my response. At least you said that women in colonial nations were treated relatively better....relative is the operative word.
But despite their seemingly better treatment which was largely displayed in their secular setting they in comparison to other native cultures had no clout in the religious systems.

Ok now i think I am getting your position somewhat. You are not really talking about secular equality but spiritual equality as evidenced by the roles a priestess might have in a polytheist system.
My answer still remains that it doesn't follow because in Monotheist systems there are also cases of prophetesses who would have spiritual authority over the males in the same way a priestess would.
I compared polytheist priestesses to nuns in the catholic system because for instance a polytheist system would involve a set of women dedicated as priestesses to a particular deity from which one might rise to high priestess.
In the same manner in catholicism; a set of women are dedicated to a patron saint as nuns from which one might rise to supreme mother.

So I don't see how polytheism enables equality as opposed to monotheism.

emöfine2: What I meant is that typically Muslim’s call their “God”...”Allah”...although the religion was founded in Arabia such specific employment awards the Muslim “God” an Arab identity imo.

I can call God by any name; Allah is popular amongst muslims because the final revelation is in the Arabic Language. I can pray using english or my local language; so i do not understand how there is any kind of identity here... If i am speaking my language, i would call God by what we call him in my language.

Why do we use the name Allah? The video below illustrates why?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsSm-_I5ZS0

Mr Anony, I hope you don't mind me asking but are you a catholic?

tbaba1234...thanks for the video clip, very informative.

emöfine2: Mr Anony, I hope you don't mind me asking but are you a catholic?

No I am not a catholic. Why are you asking?