The 64 Trillion Dollar question that baffles everyone, the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims
and even the others which the three above consider to be disbelievers, as pagans or atheists, is this;
If the Supreme being, Who created and or put into action all creating forces, chose a way to be
harmonious with, as in reverence/worship of Him, what shall we call it? Mankind, in the past, did not, or
in the present have not and future will chose the same way to relate to the this Supreme being. Is there
a correct way, or are we all wrong? But surely all of us can not be correct because we have
so many ways, each almost completely, but in a greater part disagreeing with the others. If we
factor out the Atheists, for their lack of focus on an LIVING Creator, and also factor out the pagans
for their representation of this Creator by idols, which they themselves create with their own
abilities to create or fashion out. What we have remaining are the three which in various ways accept
that there is a Supreme Creator and Sustainer, which they call God. The differences are ways that they
worship and relate to this God in their belief, and in worship. Therefore Starting from Adam, to the
this present time, looking at all the prophets, did any one of them came with the totality in the
definition of Spirituality that complements  any of one these different religions? For example, irrespective
of the ethnicity of Moses and or Jesus, did each came and preached the religion as their separate
followers practice the religion today? Did either of these prophet bring the religion and practice along
side with their followers, exactly, as we see those who claim to be practicing it do today.

Please present your argument to support your claim. Also, when you argue for or against a point of
view, please try not to stray from the topic, because you may necessarily but unintentionally drag others along from
this very important matter, to a less important topic, and all over the place presentation. Please consider using all
the proper resources in your possession, as long as you are honest in your presentation. We want to
start from Adam through all the prophets in history of Mankind, including Noah, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa son
of Mariam and lastly Muhammad son of Abdullah (May God's peace be upon everyone of them. Amin).

Here's a first start - only islam believes Adam was a "prophet". A prophet to whom islam does not say neither does it elaborate on his alleged prophecies that are no where to be found in the quran or hadith . . . just what then makes him a "prophet"?

Where are the prophecies of "prophet" Noah, Abraham and Moses IN the quran? Are they lost too?

If you are intelligent enough to open the Qur'an, you will not just pound blindly on the keyboard
and let garbage be recorded under your name. Even though you have used a fake name, but please
focus and say something tangible. If you have nothing to say, go away or at best watch how
intelligent people dialogue. We do not want to stray away, which is always your usual evil tactics.
In this case your strategy will fail. You wanna argue away that Jesus did not obey God, hence he was
not a Muslim, present your argument.

olabowale:

In this case your strategy will fail. You want to argue away that Jesus did not obey God, hence he was
not a Muslim, present your argument.

Very well then. You have hit the nail on the head. In your mind at least, (or where is it in the quran that) Jesus did not obey God (not allah)?

@Cgift: Thank you Cgift. If the Qur'an says that Jesus using your word, obeyed,' God, and totally
submitted to the Will of God, then he was a Muslim. So if Jesus was a Muslim, how come
you claimed that he is God? There is no Muslim who can claim that he is equal
in authority to God. No one can be a Muslim and be God at the same time.
The mere fact that you could not disagree with me that Jesus
was always in obedient, obey, submission to God's authority on him, simply nullifies
the claim of the Christians to be people who are obedient to God. Therefore, they
have fraudulently used the name of Jesus in vain, without sincerely obedient to God
as Jesus did in the Islamic creed of his days,under the process that God gave him.

olabowale:

If you are intelligent enough to open the Qur'an, you will not just pound blindly on the keyboard
and let garbage be recorded under your name. Even though you have used a fake name, but please
focus and say something tangible. If you have nothing to say, go away or at best watch how
intelligent people dialogue. We do not want to stray away, which is always your usual evil tactics.
In this case your strategy will fail. You want to argue away that Jesus did not obey God, hence he was
not a Muslim, present your argument.

lol see a blind man arguing that the tail of an elephant is indeed a rope.

What "64 trillion dollar question is baffling anyone"? Christians and jews are losing no sleep about whether Jesus Christ is God or not, muslims are free to spend the rest of their lives pursuing a "puzzle" that is merely aimed at giving some form of credibility to the fraud they call a religion. Stop quibbling about Jesus and spend your time reading the quran! If you did you wouldnt have made the ignorant statement that "excessive laughter = lack of faith" considering mohammed spent his days laughing till his molars showed.

Again why the unhealthy obsession with christianity? If the constant tripe you litter this forum with is "how intelligent people dialogue" then i'd rather be viewed as unintelligent.

Enjoy.

olabowale:

@Cgift: Thank you Cgift. If the Qur'an says that Jesus using your word, obeyed,' God, and totally
submitted to the Will of God, then he was a Muslim. So if Jesus was a Muslim, how come
you claimed that he is God?

Only deluded muslims believe that nonsense that Jesus was a muslim. We KNOW (note: we dont claim) that He is God. You are free to say otherwise, all we ask is that you leave us alone!

The quran cant be saying anything that rational minds shld take seriously, maybe the quran shld busy itself explaining how satanic verses got into the "words of god" first.

The rest of the tripe you posted is frankly too unintelligent to consider replying to.

Your foolishness is showing through. You have not supported your statement with matured argument.
Just yapping like a Chihuahuas shows how really smart you are. There is something called education
beyond the classroom. No matter how you try to divert the attention of others from this topic, you will
be reminded in every which way. Your prejudice is already laid bare for others to see. Lets keep moving.

Your foolishness is showing through. You have not supported your statement with matured argument.
Just yapping like a Chihuahuas shows how really smart you are. There is something called education
beyond the classroom. No matter how you try to divert the attention of others from this topic, you will be reminded in every which way. Your prejudice is already laid bare for others to see. Lets keep moving.

I don already tire for the guy, he argues without any sensible backing. He just type and click submit without having a rethink what he is replying to.

olabowale:

Your foolishness is showing through. You have not supported your statement with matured argument.
Just yapping like a Chihuahuas shows how really smart you are. There is something called education
beyond the classroom. No matter how you try to divert the attention of others from this topic, you will
be reminded in every which way. Your prejudice is already laid bare for others to see. Lets keep moving.

Sir and you assume that your write-up has anything to do with "matured argument"? We've seen it all before, its simply the tired old piffle that deluded muslims throw all the time. Besides your argument about 1 or 20 "gods" what else do muslims have to say?

For someone accusing others, your religion is built on the foundations of prejudice. . . . if in doubt check the amount of time allah spends busy cursing christians and jews for frivolous reasons like poverty and missing the sabath! 

babs787:

I don already tire for the guy, he argues without any sensible backing. He just type and click submit without having a rethink what he is replying to.

I assume you do this each time you respond to arguments eh?

Sir and you assume that your write-up has anything to do with "matured argument"? We've seen it all before, its simply the tired old piffle that deluded muslims throw all the time. Besides your argument about 1 or 20 "gods" what else do muslims have to say? (Those who steal the properties of others, the instrument of implemetation, should be cleaved off from the whole body. It will be a sign for others to resist from stealing.)


For someone accusing others, your religion is built on the foundations of prejudice. . . . if in doubt check the amount of time allah spends busy cursing christians and jews for frivolous reasons like poverty and missing the sabath! (If the God Creator curses the doers of a deed, pure sense and wisdom and the fear of God should tell me not to do it. The Jews and Christians must have done terrible deeds. No wonder that I prayed and my prayer was accepted on my mother. God also cursed disbelieving arabs.)

But make no sense anyhow, so my rebuttal will fall on barren land which is your mind.

lol see a blind man arguing that the tail of an elephant is indeed a rope. (There is no minimum length to what can be defined as a rope.)

It seems to me that it is safe to say that all Prophets are Muslims, submitting their wills
to God Almighty Creator. That includes Jesus son of Mary. No one has argued against
this statement that I made here.

olabowale:

It seems to me that it is safe to say that all Prophets are Muslims, submitting their wills
to God Almighty Creator. That includes Jesus son of Mary. No one has argued against
this statement that I made here.

1. It is clear this "prophets" are really of NO use to islam since NOT A SINGLE ONE of their "prophecies" can be found in the quran.

2. It is therefore clear that the islamic obsession with them has a lot more to do with:
a. lending some badly needed credibility to the cult of islam and
b. denigrating the bible.

Cna you proof with proper argument, for or against? back to the topic.

olabowale:

Cna you proof with proper argument, for or against? back to the topic.

We will prove this together:
Premise 1: A "prophet" always comes with "revelations" from whoever sent him: where is the "prophecy" of Moses, David, Solomon and Isaiah in the quran?

2. Beyond merely "submitting to God", what other criteria can we use to indeed prove that these biblical men were islamic prophets?

This is clearly on topic so over to you.

The idea of the topic is that an individual should pick a prophet of his chosen
and give us, in clear picture, how this prophet did not Submit totally and alone
to Almighty God. It is the descriptions of the non submissiveness that is needed
here. From my statement of the topic heading, it can be seen that I Olabowale
has declared that all prophets of God, starting from Adam and ending up with
Muhammad are all Muslims. Jesus is one of these illustrious people, creations.

Olabowale,

Like david said, i would have expected the revlations from all of these proohets to be very explicit in the quran. If you call somep one a prophet, where are his prophecies? Were are the prophecies fo adam you call a prophet? Where are the prophecies of esus the son of Mary? Where are they in the quran? I think those questions are very pertinent.

If you do not have their prophecies recorded in the quran, then they can not b called prophets by any standard at least in Islam. In Christianity on the other hand, prophets have revelations they brought from Jehovah God (not allah) to his people and they are clarly written down without ambiguity. You call esus a prophet, where are his prophecies?

You call Moses a prophet, whre are his records? You need to humble supply them.

If however, you have a recourse to the bible to show their prophecies and study their actions then you must NEVER DERIDE the bible under any circumstances.

Back to you topic of picking prophets and discussing where they went worng. I will pick Mohammad.

Mohammad went obviously went wrong by killing innocent men travelling in a caravan. You know the story very well. This he did especially in a month that would have been considered a month of peace even by the arabs! If he unustifiedly killed someone, could we say he pleased God or your allah? I think not so.

Mohammad was established as a sinner as we have numerous verses in the quran that testifies to this. He was several times. That means he was offending allah. Allah even said he was forgiven Mohammad's numerous sins. ( I know you popl will say he was an ordinary human.) My question is this, why dont you just accept the [b]sinless [/b]and [b]living [/b]Jesus as even corroboratd by your quran?

If allah is the same Jehovah God that christians serve (I know he is not), then Mohammad must have displeased God so severly cos, his lifestyle was not definately a defiant variance from Jesus whom also came from 'the same allah source'. Why would allah send two very contradictory personalities? I hope i am still within the scope of discussion?

@Cgift: You never even attempted to do a tight rope walk, even on the
edge of the topic!! Proof to me that there is a prophet who was not a
Muslim, because he did not Submit his Will/obedience to God Almighty?

This is simple enough. I see many tap dancing around the topic. But you
came out of the gate break dancing! Thats not good. First, there is no
doubt that Muhammad (as), was a Muslim.
Even as bad as Muslims are, today, each claims that they follow him, as
the last link in the chain of prophethood.

Aburo. Listen very carefully. Proof to me that there is a prophet before
Muhammad who did not have to obey God/ and did not obey God, hence
he was out of what Muslim in Islam is supposed to be.

olabowale:

Proof to me that there is a prophet who was not a
Muslim, because he did not Submit his Will/obedience to God Almighty?

Aburo. Listen very carefully. Proof to me that there is a prophet before
Muhammad who did not have to obey God/ and did not obey God, hence
he was out of what Muslim in Islam is supposed to be.

ok. ok. ok.

Jesus never submitted to allah! So he was not a muslim. chi kena! Jesus submitted to Jehovah God. , and dont try to prove to me that allah is Jehovah God. You know that wont fly with me.

See how weak you sound to yourself? Is as if you said, Ikorodu is not a
proper Ijebu. Show by demonstrating the quality of the Prophet, that they are
not Muslims, duh!

Even the Christian Arabs, call your Jehovah, Allah in their Bible. You are not
sounding reasonable enough. I may just let you continue in your game of
languages.

olabowale:

See how weak you sound to yourself? Is as if you said, Ikorodu is not a
proper Ijebu. Show by demonstrating the quality of the Prophet, that they are
not Muslims, duh!

Even the Christian Arabs, call your Jehovah, Allah in their Bible. You are not
sounding reasonable enough. I may just let you continue in your game of
languages.

Ok. I know what you are driving at. A muslim is someone who submits to God (not allah) abi? Okay. Can i still be a muslim if I dont believe in mohammad the slave of allah? Please answer.

I feel for u!

Why feeling for me? I asked u a question and you have not answered and u are feeling. Will you still call me a muslim if I say I believe in allah but do not believe in Mohammad? Afterall, it was not Mohammad that introduced allah to mankind, allah had been in existence before MO was born.

Pls answer my question? Again, here it is: Will you still call me a muslim if I say I believe in allah but do not believe in Mohammad?

@Cgift: Aburo, I love you as best as one man can love another. But I dislike your
immaturity. You have no finesse. One can imagine your behaviour around your peers.
Am actually advicing you to grow up. The question is very direct. If you have a good
sense, choose a prophet and argue for him or not being a prophet, based on his
attitude on the commandments of God. Can you do that?

To say, Olorun, Olodumare, Oluwa, Eleda are different is simply disingenuous and will
not deserve my attention. Se bi gende. Oya di de.

When muslims get cornered and their deceit exposed, they go down the weather-beaten path of adhominems.

Olabowale asks this question: Show by demonstrating the quality of the Prophet, that they are not Muslims

We need however pose this question; by what criteria do we measure the qualities of the biblical prophets? There are NO explicit accounts of these men either in the quran or hadith and muslims tell us the bible is corrupted so HOW are we to demonstrate the qualities of the prophets?

Olabowale says: Proof to me that there is a prophet who was not a Muslim, because he did not Submit his Will/obedience to God Almighty?

I ask sir, which "prophets"? The ones that are in the corrupt bible? If you can show us their revelations in the quran then maybe your question will sound a lot more plausible.

Adam was a Muslim. And he died as a Muslim. He was the first of mankind to sin and he was the
first to ask for forgiveness. All Muslims follow the tradition of seeking forgiveness, with hope that
God is Merciful and will accept repentance and therefore forgives His Slave Servants who is not
too proud to seek His Mercy. And not too timid that he sets up intercessor between himself and
the Creator. That quality in Adam, is a quality of a prophet, a Muslim.

olabowale:

Adam was a Muslim. And he died as a Muslim.

WHERE are Adam's "prophecies" in the quran? Answer this fundamental question first before repeating the islamic mantra that has no basis.

olabowale:

All Muslims follow the tradition of seeking forgiveness, with hope that God is Merciful

1. Forgiveness is NOT a tradition. It is a virtue.
2. while the muslims can only rely on vain "hope" of allah's mercy, Christians KNOW that God IS ABLE TO FORGIVE THOSE WHO TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS.

olabowale:

and will accept repentance and therefore forgives His Slave Servants who is not
too proud to seek His Mercy.

I am not a slave BUT a son. Keep on slaving away. No matter how hard a slave works, he has no part in his master's inheritance.

olabowale:

And not too timid that he sets up intercessor between himself and
the Creator. That quality in Adam, is a quality of a prophet, a Muslim.

This "quality" can as well refer to just about any sango worshipper who decides to ask sango for forgiveness in the hope that sango has any fibre of mercy.

If this is the "quality" that determines prophethood in islam then just about any ragtag muslim can call himself a prophet.

olabowale:

Adam was a Muslim. And he died as a Muslim. He was the first of mankind to sin and he was the
first to ask for forgiveness. All Muslims follow the tradition of seeking forgiveness, with hope that
God is Merciful and will accept repentance and therefore forgives His Slave Servants who is not
too proud to seek His Mercy. And not too timid that he sets up intercessor between himself and
the Creator. That quality in Adam, is a quality of a prophet, a Muslim.

davidylan:

If this is the "quality" that determines prophethood in islam then just about any ragtag muslim can call himself a prophet.

I thought I was the only one who came to that conclusion too after reading the post above.
@Olabowale, over to you, pls can you explain that?

@Oluchia: From the rank of Muslims, you have Prophets. Not all Muslims are prophets.
However all Prophets are Muslims. Just to name some notable prophets who you must be
familiar with; Prophet Jesus, a Muslim, Prophet Adam, a Muslim, Prophet Noah, a Muslim,
Prophet Ibrahim, a Muslim, Prophet Moses, a Muslim, etc, etc. Have enough?

Madame, if you believe that any of the above person, did not obey Allah God Almighty
the Creator, therefore fails out of who is Muslim, then, pick your person and give me your
argument. Then I will pick that person with you and I will argue that he was a Muslim,
submitting his will totally/completely, solely, in obedience without waivering to his Creator.

Madame, Over to you. Call your instigator(s), those who see things the way you see them to
back you up. InshaAllah, I will argue and GOD Allah the Almighty will give me victory over all
of you.

I beg. Oya. Biko.

Bros Olabowale.

Oluchia:

I thought I was the only one who came to that conclusion too after reading the post above.
@Olabowale, over to you, please can you explain that?

You didn't answer the assertion made by Oluchia and Davidylan. Now if I May, let me outline what you said.
You said "That quality in Adam, is a quality of a prophet, a Muslim."
What are the Qualities? You stated them. They are:
1. "He was the first of mankind to sin and he was the first to ask for forgiveness."
2. He had a "hope that God is Merciful and will accept repentance and therefore forgives His Slave Servants"
3. He was "not too proud to seek His Mercy"
4. He was "not too timid that he sets up intercessor between himself and the Creator."
Note: All the statements in quote were from you.

Since these above qualities were what made Adam a prophet, it is safe to infere that anybody that has these qualities can be identified as a prophet.

Consequently, since you said "All Muslims follow the tradition of seeking forgiveness, with hope that God is Merciful and will accept repentance and therefore forgives His Slave Servants who is not too proud to seek His Mercy. And not too timid that he sets up intercessor between himself and the Creator." It therefore means that all Muslims are Prophets. QED.

Any Rebuttals?

@lafile: Read my entry after what your associates wrote. I only gave a fraction of
what makes a a Muslim out of prophet Adam. Again not all Muslims are prophet,
but all Prophets are Muslims. If you disagree with me, present your argument, in the
light of the definitions of Muslim/Islam and Prophet/Messenger. To help you to a better
understanding: All Messengers are Prophets, but not all Prophets are messengers.