I realize that atheists say that morality is some form of social conditioning or contract, but i think the most admired virtues: heroism, self-sacrifice, unselfishness, could not have evolved from a social contract because they do not prolong longevity or serve any self interest. so it leads me to ask if morality is truly possible without an authoritative force?

Why don't you just ask the question you really want to ask - Is morality possible without god?

Yes it is.

I am amazed when Christians and Muslims claim that their gods are the source of morality.

Have they ever read the bible or the Koran?

Anyone who reads both books objectively will come to the conclusion that the gods depicted therein are immoral characters.

Am a christian,.....we God belivers have not proven to be more moral than non God belivers.......

We kill and steal only to ask our God for forgivenes and repeat d same attrocity.

I think the basis for morality should be our conscience.....if we are about to do something,

will we feel guilty after doing the act

Will our conscience disturb us??

Most of us christians even use the bible to justify our immoral act......

definitely is not. humans only respond to violence and laws. some humans. scripture says

jeremiah 17 vs 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it

tobechi74: Am a christian,.....we God belivers have not proven to be more moral than non God belivers.......

We kill and steal only to ask our God for forgivenes and repeat d same attrocity.

I think the basis for morality should be our conscience.....if we are about to do something,

will we feel guilty after doing the act

Will our conscience disturb us??

Most of us christians even use the bible to justify our immoral act......

Tobechi? Is this you? Wow, what a truthful comment. 100% agree

mkmyers45:
I realize that atheists say that morality is some form of social conditioning or contract, but i think the most admired virtues: heroism, self-sacrifice, unselfishness, could not have evolved from a social contract because they do not prolong longevity or serve any self interest. so it leads me to ask if morality is truly possible without an authoritative force?

Heroism/self-scarifice do not serve any self interest? You wouldnt protect your children with your life?


Why do these religionists come up with stupid things like this? have you read the bible? Which morality do you you to ignore the part where it says in the new testament that slaves should obey their masters or women should be kept silent in church

tobechi74: Am a christian,.....we God belivers have not proven to be more moral than non God belivers.......

We kill and steal only to ask our God for forgivenes and repeat d same attrocity.

I think the basis for morality should be our conscience.....if we are about to do something,

will we feel guilty after doing the act

Will our conscience disturb us??

Most of us christians even use the bible to justify our immoral act......

i wish many more christians will be as honest as you.

Following one's conscience, avoiding harm to others and seeking others happiness will make anybody whether chritian or atheist be a truly moral person.
That is the true basis of objective morality.
Shikena

Atheism is by definition a no God existence, but there still resides within these ingrates that gift of conscience and awareness of right or wrong , therefore it is not unusual to see some of these creatures exhibit some flashes of goodness from time to time.

However , when a state is founded on atheist ideologies like Maoism and Stalinism, what we have is a pretty much 'lawless' society where human life is devalued and morality becomes a relative term.

Just look at Russia and the effect of decades of atheism, Vodka addiction, violence, the most horrendous kind of racism and gross intolerance for the ideas for a democratic society.


Atheists without Christ are a lost cause and of all men to be the most pitied.

Only Christ can deliver them from their almost seemingly impenetrable blindness.

This is harsh but true.

Zodiac61: Why don't you just ask the question you really want to ask - Is morality possible without god?
Yes it is.
I am amazed when christians and muslims cliam that their gods are the source of morality.
Have they ever read the bible or the koran?
Antone who reads both books objectively will come to the conclusion that the gods depicted therein anre immoral characters.

How do you define morality? From birth how have you diffrenciated right from wrong?

frosbel: Atheism is by definition a no God existence, but there still resides within these ingrates that gift of conscience and awareness of right or wrong , therefore it is not unusual to see some of these creatures exhibit some flashes of goodness from time to time.

However , when a state is founded on atheist ideologies like Maoism and Stalinism, what we have is a pretty much 'lawless' society where human life is devalued and morality becomes a relative term.

Just look at Russia and the effect of decades of atheism, Vodka addiction, violence, the most horrendous kind of racism and gross intolerance for the ideas for a democratic society.


Atheists without Christ are a lost cause and of all men to be the most pitied.

Only Christ can deliver them from their almost seemingly impenetrable blindness.

This is harsh but true.

bolded parts

tobechi74: Am a christian,.....we God belivers have not proven to be more moral than non God belivers.......

We kill and steal only to ask our God for forgivenes and repeat d same attrocity.

I think the basis for morality should be our conscience.....if we are about to do something,

will we feel guilty after doing the act

Will our conscience disturb us??

Most of us christians even use the bible to justify our immoral act......

So even the 'God' authoritative figure does not guarantee morality? Nice..

buzugee: definitely is not. humans only respond to violence and laws. some humans. scripture says

jeremiah 17 vs 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it

and this wickedness is of what moral origin?

MacDaddy01:


Heroism/self-scarifice do not serve any self interest? You wouldnt protect your children with your life?


Why do these religionists come up with stupid things like this? have you read the bible? Which morality do you you to ignore the part where it says in the new testament that slaves should obey their masters or women should be kept silent in church

Look Mr Logicboy im not a theist and you are not answering the question..

frosbel: Atheism is by definition a no God existence, but there still resides within these ingrates that gift of conscience and awareness of right or wrong , therefore it is not unusual to see some of these creatures exhibit some flashes of goodness from time to time.

However , when a state is founded on atheist ideologies like Maoism and Stalinism, what we have is a pretty much 'lawless' society where human life is devalued and morality becomes a relative term.

Just look at Russia and the effect of decades of atheism, Vodka addiction, violence, the most horrendous kind of racism and gross intolerance for the ideas for a democratic society.


Atheists without Christ are a lost cause and of all men to be the most pitied.

Only Christ can deliver them from their almost seemingly impenetrable blindness.

This is harsh but true.

Just keep wondering how this guy makes false assertions with a bold face. See what decades of religious brainwashing can do to a normal rational person.

Just look at Nigeria and the effect of decades of religiosity, corruption, alcohol addiction, religious violence, and the most horrendous kind of tribalism and gross intolerance of for the ideas of democratic society!

Learn to be objective. Communism not atheism caused those countries to be like that.

frosbel: Atheism is by definition a no God existence, but there still resides within these ingrates that gift of conscience and awareness of right or wrong , therefore it is not unusual to see some of these creatures exhibit some flashes of goodness from time to time.

However , when a state is founded on atheist ideologies like Maoism and Stalinism, what we have is a pretty much 'lawless' society where human life is devalued and morality becomes a relative term.

Just look at Russia and the effect of decades of atheism, Vodka addiction, violence, the most horrendous kind of racism and gross intolerance for the ideas for a democratic society.


Atheists without Christ are a lost cause and of all men to be the most pitied.

Only Christ can deliver them from their almost seemingly impenetrable blindness.

This is harsh but true.

you intend to lump fascism and communism into the same category as atheism.thats wrong.besides since the fall of the soviet union and introduction of democracy,russia has fared better
nigeria with all our Godism,how far have we gone?

cyrexx:

i wish many more christians will be as honest as you.

Following one's conscience, avoiding harm to others and seeking others happiness will make anybody whether chritian or atheist be a truly moral person.
That is the true basis of objective morality.
Shikena

I plead to disagree with you Sir, Is there a standard for generally acceptable level of conscience or is everyone's interpretation right?

mkmyers45: and this wickedness is of what moral origin?

the wickedness is part of the duality of the human spirit. depends on which part of your human spirit you choose to dwell in. if you choose to dwell in the satanic side then you will be an evil person. if you choose to dwell in the godly side then you will be a nice morally sound person. however the lines between both sides are often blurred which is why some people can be nice and yet evil at times. humans need laws and incentives and repercussions so as to dwell in their godly side and ignore their satanic side. those 3 only come from a connection to God. without that connection to God you will always vacillate between your godly and satanic side. the aim here is to get you to reside permanently in your godly spirit. only God can do that for you.

mkmyers45:
I realize that atheists say that morality is some form of social conditioning or contract, but i think the most admired virtues: heroism, self-sacrifice, unselfishness, could not have evolved from a social contract because they do not prolong longevity or serve any self interest. so it leads me to ask if morality is truly possible without an authoritative force?

oftentimes people depend on a diety or "divine being" to guide them right.their fear of punishment from their "god" keeps them on their toes.however,history is replete with tales of heroes who had no affiliation to any god or diety.

frosbel: Atheism is by definition a no God existence, but there still resides within these ingrates that gift of conscience and awareness of right or wrong , therefore it is not unusual to see some of these creatures exhibit some flashes of goodness from time to time.

However , when a state is founded on atheist ideologies like Maoism and Stalinism, what we have is a pretty much 'lawless' society where human life is devalued and morality becomes a relative term.

Just look at Russia and the effect of decades of atheism, Vodka addiction, violence, the most horrendous kind of racism and gross intolerance for the ideas for a democratic society.


Atheists without Christ are a lost cause and of all men to be the most pitied.

Only Christ can deliver them from their almost seemingly impenetrable blindness.

This is harsh but true.

Russian state system is gosateizm not atheism as it based on marxism-leninism.

mkmyers45: I plead to disagree with you Sir, Is there a standard for generally acceptable level of conscience or is everyone's interpretation right?

so what is your own standard if you fail to understand the standard of morality i just posted.

buzugee: the wickedness is part of the duality of the human spirit. depends on which part of your human spirit you choose to dwell in. if you choose to dwell in the satanic side then you will be an evil person. if you choose to dwell in the godly side then you will be a nice morally sound person. however the lines between both sides are often blurred which is why some people can be nice and yet evil at times. humans need laws and incentives and repercussions so as to dwell in their godly side and ignore their satanic side. those 3 only come from a connection to God. without that connection to God you will always vacillate between your godly and satanic side. the aim here is to get you to reside permanently in your godly spirit. only God can do that for you.

how did you from childhood learn what is right or wrong?

Delafruita:
oftentimes people depend on a diety or "divine being" to guide them right.their fear of punishment from their "god" keeps them on their toes.however,history is replete with tales of heroes who had no affiliation to any god or diety.

@delafruita Did you learn right and wrong with/without an authoritative figure?

mkmyers45: I plead to disagree with you Sir, Is there a standard for generally acceptable level of conscience or is everyone's interpretation right?

hinduism tells you there is the law of karma.it tells you that whatever you do will come back to you.the acceptable standard is to do to others what you can accept from them.
confuscinism tells us there are 2 groups of people.the good and the bad.it admonishes adherrents to be part of the good.
christianity tells us that we should love neighbours as ourselves.
islam encourages people to act as muhammad did with piety
all these are religious edicts and they dont prevent a person from been good or bad,they only make been good attractive with promises of paradise.however,it all still depends on the person whether he will live a moral life or not.its not about religion or atheism,in the end it all comes down to you and i.who are we?the characters a person exhibits is influenced by his birth,growth and association.sometimes religion helps but even in the absence of religion,a person will be good if he wants to.it now depends on what you define as been good or immoral.for example,in some societies,a person who smokes is immoral while in some societies,smoking is a part of life.

mkmyers45: how did you from childhood learn what is right or wrong?

3 SOURCES. INNATE ( FROM GOD ), PARENTING ( FROM PARENTS ), ENVIRONMENTAL ( FROM ENVIRONMENT )

cyrexx:

so what is your own standard if you fail to understand the standard of morality i just posted.

eg People's definition of harm differ and definitely the auspecies of making one happy is not exclusive...

mkmyers45: @delafruita Did you learn right and wrong with/without an authoritative figure?

first,what do you mean by authoritative figure?
second,you can never "learn" right and wrong.its a continous process that takes an entire lifetime.right and wrong differs from place to place.
for example in the yoruba culture,its rude to look an elder straight in the eye,however in other climes,its termed a sign of timidity or lack of confidence not to look an elder in the eye.
there is no broad definition for right and wrong hence there is no one size fits all approach.

Delafruita:
hinduism tells you there is the law of karma.it tells you that whatever you do will come back to you.the acceptable standard is to do to others what you can accept from them.
confuscinism tells us there are 2 groups of people.the good and the bad.it admonishes adherrents to be part of the good.
christianity tells us that we should love neighbours as ourselves.
islam encourages people to act as muhammad did with piety
all these are religious edicts and they dont prevent a person from been good or bad,they only make been good attractive with promises of paradise.however,it all still depends on the person whether he will live a moral life or not.its not about religion or atheism,in the end it all comes down to you and i.who are we?the characters a person exhibits is influenced by his birth,growth and association.sometimes religion helps but even in the absence of religion,a person will be good if he wants to.it now depends on what you define as been good or immoral.for example,in some societies,a person who smokes is immoral while in some societies,smoking is a part of life.

but definitely everyone is influenced by an/or Authoritative(Authorities) right?

buzugee: 3 SOURCES. INNATE ( FROM GOD ), PARENTING ( FROM PARENTS ), ENVIRONMENTAL ( FROM ENVIRONMENT )

morality bieng innate? I dont understand..

Delafruita:
first,what do you mean by authoritative figure?
second,you can never "learn" right and wrong.its a continous process that takes an entire lifetime.right and wrong differs from place to place.
for example in the yoruba culture,its rude to look an elder straight in the eye,however in other climes,its termed a sign of timidity or lack of confidence not to look an elder in the eye.
there is no broad definition for right and wrong hence there is no one size fits all approach.

The word 'Authoritative Figure' is broad so as to fit all descriptions (God,Parents etc), However i meant the word learn to describe you current state of awareness of right and wrong....

Now that's what I call a good question!!

Zodiac61: Why don't you just ask the question you really want to ask - Is morality possible without god?

No that is not the question at all. When you go there you reduce the argument to another 'which religion is right' and 'which god is real', or 'whose delusion is superior' kind of argument.

You thereby lose a lot of the juice of the argument.

Is morality possible without Authority? Simples. Whether you want to call the Authority this god or that god or any god (or no god) at all is not the matter.

tobechi74:

I think the basis for morality should be our conscience.....if we are about to do something,

so we can ask now, How much of an authority is Conscience and Why so?

mkmyers45: The word 'Authoritative Figure' is broad so as to fit all descriptions (God,Parents etc), However i meant the word learn to describe you current state of awareness of right and wrong....

authoritative figure in the broad sense isnt necessarily god or a diety or a religion.it includes parents,teachers,friends,adversaries,girlfriends,etc.in that sense,everybody learns from an authoritative figure