Why Do Muslims Hate Christians So Much, Could This Be The Anti-Christ Coming?

Softee:

Why Do Muslims Hate Christians So Much, Could This Be The Anti-Christ Coming?

No.

KAG:

No.

You have got to explain. What do you believe etc.
.

Dear softee,
I think u misunderstood or misheard somebody because Islam is also about caring for other religions and to understand their points of view,
infact our prophet Mohamed (gods prayers and peace may rest on him) have said more than once to care for other religions, so does our holy book the Qur'an.
so pls may u ask the person u heard this rumor from to give u evidence nationally bcause 1 persons actions is a different issue.

Islam, but can i ask u a question, Must muslims kill the innocent ones just because someone made a jest of Mohammed (peace be on him)? i respect islam but if u have to convert a non Islamist u dont take it harsh!

emmeno,
may u pls tell me how i took it harsh,
also as an answer to ur question, no he should not kill innocent ones bocause its not there fault, thats the problem, ppl think that Islam is a religion of terrorrism although its not, its a religion of peace, as we were taught by the quran, pls read the verse and hope u understand how

It is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou dost deal gently with them Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about thee: so pass over (Their faults), and ask for ((Allah)'s) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). Then, when thou hast Taken a decision put thy trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/3.htm

when did muslim kill innocent ones?
if u r talking about suicide bombing, as said in that subject, islam condemns such an act

Islam:

Dear softee,
I think u misunderstood or misheard somebody because Islam is also about caring for other religions and to understand their points of view,
infact our prophet Mohamed (gods prayers and peace may rest on him) have said more than once to care for other religions, so does our holy book the Qur'an.
so please may u ask the person u heard this rumor from to give u evidence nationally bcause 1 persons actions is a different issue.

Islam,

I didnt hear it. I read it! A

4:101 ", For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."

(Christians are your most enemies because this is the most leading faith in the world, whenever a situation happens with muslims, it is a chance to kill christians to "FIGHT IN THE NAME OF ALLAH"

2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you , And slay them wherever ye catch them , And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God , " )

Softee:

Islam,

I didnt hear it. I read it! A

4:101 ", For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."

(Christians are your most enemies because this is the most leading faith in the world, whenever a situation happens with muslims, it is a chance to kill christians to "FIGHT IN THE NAME OF ALLAH"

2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you , And slay them wherever ye catch them , And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God , " )

Qur'an 4:101:
[center]"And when you (Muslims) travel in the land, there is no sin on you if you shorten your Salat (Prayer) if you fear that the disbelievers may attack you, verily, the disbelievers are ever unto you open enemies."[/center]

Please don't just pick a few words out of a verse, whenever you intend to reference the Qur'an in the context you trying to prove. The full verse there states that muslims are permitted to shorten their prayers whenever they perceive threats of being attacked (physically assualted), and these people who would be attacking the muslims are being referred to as open enemies. In fighting against the enemy during a war you are not supposed to let ur guards down.

Qur'an 2:190 states: "And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors. "
Qur'an 2:191 now follows thus: "And kill them wherever you find them, turn them out from where they have turned you out, Such is the recompense of the disbelievers".
Qur'an 2:192 States: "But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Qur'an 2:193 follows as: "And fight them until there is no more Fitna (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if ther cease, let there be no transgression except against the Az-Zalimun (the Polytheist, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

All these verses are generally relating to the occurrence during the time of the Prophet (SAW) when Islam started to gain strong footing and all the arabians polytheists were ganged up to fight against Muslims.

Besides, the verses started with: And Fight against those who fight you".
I'll have no cause to fight against anyone who does not rais an arm against me.
Note that Allah was also warning the muslims against transgressing beyond the needed limit.
Please note that you will appreciate the Qur'an better if you read the whole chapters, and read about the circumstances surrounding the revelation of every verse. It'll do no good to just pick a few line and try to harp on it.

Kindly let me know if I've been able to answer your questions.

i guess they just feel threatened by christians because there are soo many of them

9ijaMan:

Qur'an 4:101:
[center]"And when you (Muslims) travel in the land, there is no sin on you if you shorten your Salat (Prayer) if you fear that the disbelievers may attack you, verily, the disbelievers are ever unto you open enemies."[/center]

Please don't just pick a few words out of a verse, whenever you intend to reference the Qur'an in the context you trying to prove. The full verse there states that muslims are permitted to shorten their prayers whenever they perceive threats of being attacked (physically assualted), and these people who would be attacking the muslims are being referred to as open enemies. In fighting against the enemy during a war you are not supposed to let your guards down.

Qur'an 2:190 states: "And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors. "
Qur'an 2:191 now follows thus: "And kill them wherever you find them, turn them out from where they have turned you out, Such is the recompense of the disbelievers".
Qur'an 2:192 States: "But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Qur'an 2:193 follows as: "And fight them until there is no more Fitna (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if ther cease, let there be no transgression except against the Az-Zalimun (the Polytheist, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

All these verses are generally relating to the occurrence during the time of the Prophet (SAW) when Islam started to gain strong footing and all the arabians polytheists were ganged up to fight against Muslims.

Besides, the verses started with: And Fight against those who fight you".
I'll have no cause to fight against anyone who does not rais an arm against me.
Note that Allah was also warning the muslims against transgressing beyond the needed limit.
Please note that you will appreciate the Qur'an better if you read the whole chapters, and read about the circumstances surrounding the revelation of every verse. It'll do no good to just pick a few line and try to harp on it.

Kindly let me know if I've been able to answer your questions.

It wasn't a question to start with and there is still plenty of violence in there:

This was your saying:
Besides, the verses started with: And Fight against those who fight you".

Wether they started fighting you or not 'allah' is teaching to fight back and that kufarrs (non-belivers) are your worse enemies and 'allah' is also teaching you to slay them wherever you catch them and to fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God!!

This religion is toxic and violent, i will stand by my word.

God bless

So you guys can beat someone who started on you to death until they are FORCED to believe in allah

Qur'an 2:191 now follows thus: "And kill them wherever you find them, turn them out from where they have turned you out, Such is the recompense of the disbelievers".
Qur'an 2:192 States: "But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

And you can kill them aswell and allah forgives you!

u misunderstood the verse!!!!

"But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

by saying "they" the Quran means that the person who assaulted u stopped then forgive them because god is merciful!

and again it doesnt say that we stop until they believe in allah!!!! we stop until the person who assaulted stop!

Softee, please give me the verse where t says that "we must kill kuffars whenever we see them"!
and softee, i hope that u bring the whole verse and stop accusing islam because i dont think that is what christianity recommended and hoped for its belevers to do because in ur way of accusing u r disfigurng the reputation of christianity, i think confrence should be in discussion and not being stubourn and sayng that other relgions are "toxc and violent"

@ Softee

Softee:

It wasn't a question to start with and there is still plenty of violence in there:

This was your saying:
Besides, the verses started with: And Fight against those who fight you".

Wether they started fighting you or not 'allah' is teaching to fight back and that kufarrs (non-belivers) are your worse enemies and 'allah' is also teaching you to slay them wherever you catch them and to fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God!!

This religion is toxic and violent, i will stand by my word.

God bless

Hmm, !
Please let me know if I've been writing in greek or chinese. Kindly read what I have written again and try to deduce what you have concluded out of my statements.
Clearly stated there is that "You should fight those who fight you". Also Allah(SWT) states that you should cease to fight them if they stop fighting you.

Now tell me (although you may be a lady and may never have the opportunity to be in a war front), would you sit down and clamp your hands by your sides when fighting an enemy in a war situation and allow your enemies to overrun you?

I metioned earlier that you should try and read the circumstances surrounding the revelation of the verses, yet you have continued to quote out of context.
I'm impressed that you can pick up the Holy Qur'an and read it, but you should make the little extra effort to find out about the reasons behind the revelations.

Please go through what I wrote again without prejudice perhaps you'll get my point.

Islam is a balanced, practical, just and complete religion. Islam does not shy away from the realities of time. For every situation you may find yourself in as a Muslim, there is always a practical solution.

Kindly let me know if you still cannot get to the events that were occuring when the verses were revealed.

Peace.

Islam:

and again it doesnt say that we stop until they believe in allah!!!! we stop until the person who assaulted stop!

Oh, p'leeeezzzzzee!! It still makes me wonder why Muslims in Pakistan and in northern Nigeria kept on the killings for days and did not stop, even when they had no reason to justify the killings in the first place. It also makes me wonder why Muslims turned on one another in Iraq, killing fellow Muslims who did not assault them to begin with. And for Muslims to try to bomb the oil well in Saudi Arabia really leaves me bewildered all the more.

The excuse I hear a lot when things get out of hand is that the Qur'an does not sanction these killings and those murderers were acting on their own. Smoke screen. Even then, why did we not see or hear informed Muslims come out in very strong terms to condemn the murders instead of the taciturn remarks here and there? Sponsored killings occur in broad day in some countries by organizations recognised as acting for Muhammad and Allah, and some Islamic governments pretend that they don't know these organisations exist and operate in their own countries with institutionalised consent.

However one may interpret the controversial verses of Sura 2:191-192, many Islamic organizations exist for the purpose of these same evil acts of murdering people, and it would border on insanity and base perversion for anyone to sanction their actions by any stretch. As an example, consider the following:

    Five Islamic organisations including the Jihad Group in Egypt, the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan, and the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh issued a joint communiqué to promote the killing of Americans (both civilian and military), Jews and "Crusaders" (that is, Christians). [Link: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm]. This is what their opening paragraph says (emphasis mine):

           Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in
      His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find
     them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be
      upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my
     hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of
                       my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.
         (see the arabic version of the statement here: http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/fatw2.htm)

Now this befuddles the mind of any reasoning person, and there are issues to be raised here:
   1. How come the Muslim world has people engaging in such nefarious occupations in the name of Allah and prophet Muhammad and we don't see Islamic governements and institutions taking it upon themselves to wage an all-out war on these organisations - until something bad has happened? The Pakistani and Saudi Arabian governements (as far as I know) have a stance against supporting terrorism: and that is why they have become unpopular among many Muslims around the world who see them as allies with "the West."
   2. The group cited above does not seem to be quoting a soft-sell magazine when they said it was Allah in "His Book" who stated that Muslims are duty bound to 'fight and slay the pagans' after the forbidden months (Muslim holy months of fasting?_perhaps in reference to Sura 9.5?). So, what do Muslims say in the face of an Islamic group claiming justification from the Qur'an for their murderous intentions?
   3. How is it then that the Prophet Muhammad is given a face-lift as a man of peace when he says that Allah sent him "with a sword between [his] hands" in order to force the worship of Allah on other people? Does this not conflict with the statutes in Sura 2:256 ("There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way" and (Sura 16:82 "But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you"?
   4. We are often told that Muhammad came to preach the religion or message of Allah - and therefore he did not impose his own orders in Islam. Excuse me, but what verse or hadith was the Islamic group quoting of Muhammad when he said Allah "inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders" ("my orders" in that line clearly points to Muhammad's orders - not Allah's).

The group gave a list of three issues that they supposed were at stake, and an unbiased reader (Musilim, Christian, or other) who's acquainted with historical facts, knows immediately that facts have been twisted to sound like the group had reasons to justify their call for "Jihad." Anyone is free to counter my opinion about what is written in the communiqué, but I'd gladly present the facts for discussion in another thread if necessary.

At any rate, the group went on to say:

"On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

The question here is, how come every Muslim - in compliance with Allah's order - is to kill Americans (civilians and military) in any country in which it is possible to do it? So, if an American Muslim engineer goes to another country on call of his professional duty, he would not be counted as a Muslim, but killed because first and foremost he is American? Or again, a Muslim who is unfortunate to find himself in one of those countries "in which it is possible to do it" is also to be killed under the fatwa because he is a citizen of "their allies"?

We may sound unreasonable or accusative, and here I appeal that you don't necessarily write me off as such. The point that is just unacceptable to some of us is the excuse that anyone should go out to kill another person in the first place all in the name of protecting Allah or his prophet. I don't know what verse the group was referencing when they wrote: "Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered." How in the world am I to understand that when I take someone else's life, then I am being called to that which will give me life?

Something is intrinsically wrong with a system or mentality that requires me to kill my neighbour who did me no wrong or harm just because my Muslim leader issued a fatwa on his head for being a citizen of one of the countries "in which it is possible to do it"? Who was assaulting who in Saudi Arabia - the Americans? Or in northern Nigeria - the Americans occupying the northern states? Or in Iraq in the bombings of their holy place, the Mosque?

No, I cannot go out to kill anyone - especially my non-muslim neighbour who has done me no wrong at all - just because some verses in any holy book at all says I am called to that which will give me life when I take someone's life.

However one may interpret the controversial verses of Sura 2:191-192, many Islamic organizations exist for the purpose of these same evil acts of murdering people, and it would border on insanity and base perversion for anyone to sanction their actions by any stretch. As an example, consider the following:

Five Islamic organisations including the Jihad Group in Egypt, the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan, and the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh issued a joint communiqué to promote the killing of Americans (both civilian and military), Jews and "Crusaders" (that is, Christians). [Link: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm]. This is what their opening paragraph says (emphasis mine):

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in
His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find
them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be
upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my
hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of
my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.
(see the arabic version of the statement here: http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/fatw2.htm)

Please let him know this and more!!!

bari_kade:

Oh, p'leeeezzzzzee!! It still makes me wonder why Muslims in Pakistan and in northern Nigeria kept on the killings for days and did not stop, even when they had no reason to justify the killings in the first place. It also makes me wonder why Muslims turned on one another in Iraq, killing fellow Muslims who did not assault them to begin with. And for Muslims to try to bomb the oil well in Saudi Arabia really leaves me bewildered all the more.

The excuse I hear a lot when things get out of hand is that the Qur'an does not sanction these killings and those murderers were acting on their own. Smoke screen. Even then, why did we not see or hear informed Muslims come out in very strong terms to condemn the murders instead of the taciturn remarks here and there? Sponsored killings occur in broad day in some countries by organizations recognised as acting for Muhammad and Allah, and some Islamic governments pretend that they don't know these organisations exist and operate in their own countries with institutionalised consent.

However one may interpret the controversial verses of Sura 2:191-192, many Islamic organizations exist for the purpose of these same evil acts of murdering people, and it would border on insanity and base perversion for anyone to sanction their actions by any stretch. As an example, consider the following:

Five Islamic organisations including the Jihad Group in Egypt, the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan, and the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh issued a joint communiqué to promote the killing of Americans (both civilian and military), Jews and "Crusaders" (that is, Christians). [Link: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm]. This is what their opening paragraph says (emphasis mine):

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in
His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find
them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be
upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my
hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of
my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.
(see the arabic version of the statement here: http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/fatw2.htm)

Now this befuddles the mind of any reasoning person, and there are issues to be raised here:
1. How come the Muslim world has people engaging in such nefarious occupations in the name of Allah and prophet Muhammad and we don't see Islamic governements and institutions taking it upon themselves to wage an all-out war on these organisations - until something bad has happened? The Pakistani and Saudi Arabian governements (as far as I know) have a stance against supporting terrorism: and that is why they have become unpopular among many Muslims around the world who see them as allies with "the West."
2. The group cited above does not seem to be quoting a soft-sell magazine when they said it was Allah in "His Book" who stated that Muslims are duty bound to 'fight and slay the pagans' after the forbidden months (Muslim holy months of fasting?_perhaps in reference to Sura 9.5?). So, what do Muslims say in the face of an Islamic group claiming justification from the Qur'an for their murderous intentions?
3. How is it then that the Prophet Muhammad is given a face-lift as a man of peace when he says that Allah sent him "with a sword between [his] hands" in order to force the worship of Allah on other people? Does this not conflict with the statutes in Sura 2:256 ("There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way" and (Sura 16:82 "But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you"?
4. We are often told that Muhammad came to preach the religion or message of Allah - and therefore he did not impose his own orders in Islam. Excuse me, but what verse or hadith was the Islamic group quoting of Muhammad when he said Allah "inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders" ("my orders" in that line clearly points to Muhammad's orders - not Allah's).

The group gave a list of three issues that they supposed were at stake, and an unbiased reader (Musilim, Christian, or other) who's acquainted with historical facts, knows immediately that facts have been twisted to sound like the group had reasons to justify their call for "Jihad." Anyone is free to counter my opinion about what is written in the communiqué, but I'd gladly present the facts for discussion in another thread if necessary.

At any rate, the group went on to say:

"On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

The question here is, how come every Muslim - in compliance with Allah's order - is to kill Americans (civilians and military) in any country in which it is possible to do it? So, if an American Muslim engineer goes to another country on call of his professional duty, he would not be counted as a Muslim, but killed because first and foremost he is American? Or again, a Muslim who is unfortunate to find himself in one of those countries "in which it is possible to do it" is also to be killed under the fatwa because he is a citizen of "their allies"?

We may sound unreasonable or accusative, and here I appeal that you don't necessarily write me off as such. The point that is just unacceptable to some of us is the excuse that anyone should go out to kill another person in the first place all in the name of protecting Allah or his prophet. I don't know what verse the group was referencing when they wrote:
"Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered." How in the world am I to understand that when I take someone else's life, then I am being called to that which will give me life?

Something is intrinsically wrong with a system or mentality that requires me to kill my neighbour who did me no wrong or harm just because my Muslim leader issued a fatwa on his head for being a citizen of one of the countries "in which it is possible to do it"? Who was assaulting who in Saudi Arabia - the Americans? Or in northern Nigeria - the Americans occupying the northern states? Or in Iraq in the bombings of their holy place, the Mosque?

No, I cannot go out to kill anyone - especially my non-muslim neighbour who has done me no wrong at all - just because some verses in any holy book at all says I am called to that which will give me life when I take someone's life.

Hahahahah that's agood one!!!
You'll wonder why I'm amused by your write up.
I just went through the link you posted in your statements above and was shocked after reading through it. Firstly I want to ask if you are a student of arabic or if you speak arabic because:
Right from the top of the writeup I've been able to pick holes in the write up. The Arabic version of the write up has 3 names (Bin Ladin, Zawahiri and Taha), while the english version has 5 names. I wonder how the other 2 names got in there! Hence the credibility of the document is very much doubted. This is the reason why I was shocked, and certainly what amused me.

Let's assume the publication is not a propaganda (which it certainly is), how come Bin Ladin has not sent suicide bombers to Nigeria (at least we have lots of xtians here too)? How com suicide bombers don't go to Ghana, South Africa, Sweden, Norway, China etc to blow themselves up? I'm not trying to make a case for suicide bombing but rather trying to awaken your conciousness to the politics of the world.

In as much as I hate violence, I still would not allow propaganda such as the one you posted above to becloud my sense of reasoning and judgement.

Please I'll also want you to direct me to the source of your info above where "Muhammad stated that Allah sent him with Swords between his hands". We'll all do ourselves a lot of good if we make accurate references to our postings.

I do not want to dwell so much on the write up in the you have posted 'because it's authenticity is found wanting.

Back to the Question raised in the Thread, Muslims do not hate xtians like you think. I'll advice you to read the Sirah (biography) of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to learn about how the prophet treated people of other faiths.

The truth is that, the first thing that come to the mind of most Muslims as soon as they hear someone saying something against their prophet, is to kill him?

it is in their koran, and regarded that person as an enemies, Nijaman if you like say not all, History had repeated itself time without number in relating to the this question asked

charlisco:

The truth is that, the first thing that come to the mind of most Muslims as soon as they hear someone saying something against their prophet, is to kill him?

it is in their koran, and regarded that person as an enemies, Nijaman if you like say not all, History had repeated itself time without number in relating to the this question asked

Charlisco,
It's your opinion to state that we always want to kill you. I'm sure you have said several things against Islam in your life, and I'm pretty certain you have never been assaulted because of that. So why would you think every muslim would want to kill you.

If I were you, I'll limit my discussions to the present day and would not ignorantly make reference to history. The atrcocities, killings and exterminations as perpetrated by the Crusaders (in the name of christianity) against muslims in europe is part of the history you are making reference to. I'll implore you to go pick up the books of history to learn more about how Christian crusaders murdered muslims in millions perhaps you'd be careful in future whenever you want to sight history to back up your ignorant claims.

I owe you no apology, if you refuse to accept the simple explanations which muslims have given to your various questions in this thread. My explantion has not been for the purpose of winning sympathy nor has it been to draw you into the fold of Islam. I've only been trying to disuade you from trying to from quoting the Qur'an out of context.

If you want to engage in intellectual debate, I'd be glad to answer you but I would refuse to be dragged into these emotional and prejudiced pranks you are trying to play.

Peace.

Islam:

u misunderstood the verse!!!!

by saying "they" the Quran means that the person who assaulted u stopped then forgive them because god is merciful!

and again it doesnt say that we stop until they believe in allah!!!! we stop until the person who assaulted stop!

Softee, please give me the verse where t says that "we must kill kuffars whenever we see them"!
and softee, i hope that u bring the whole verse and stop accusing islam because i don't think that is what christianity recommended and hoped for its belevers to do because in your way of accusing you're disfigurng the reputation of christianity, i think confrence should be in discussion and not being stubourn and sayng that other relgions are "toxc and violent"

First of all, i am not accusing i am telling you the truth about your religion. It is violent. It promotes violence but on a down-low.

and again it doesnt say that we stop until they believe in allah!!!! we stop until the person who assaulted stop![/b]

A 'God' teaching this? To stop fighting until the other person stops? And you see nothing wrong in that? Islam is going to drive a lot of you poor people to your graves. Its better to walk away from war then fight and be killed.

Here are some scriptures from the bible about hate and violence:

[b]21"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' 22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[c] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell[d] of fire. 23So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar and go.

3"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers,[h] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

38"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[g] let him have your cloak as well. 41And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Christianity is about being christ-like which means to love one and other. I don't know the purpose of islam but if it is teaching you to fight in the cause of allah, then there is no love in this religion, Because a 'God' who created all human beings will not teach you to fight eachother. This seems like the Anti-christ.

Amusing Ourselves to Death!

9ijaMan:

Hahahahah that's agood one!!!
You'll wonder why I'm amused by your write up.
Let's assume the publication is not a propaganda (which it certainly is), how come Bin Ladin has not sent suicide bombers to Nigeria (at least we have lots of xtians here too)? How com suicide bombers don't go to Ghana, South Africa, Sweden, Norway, China etc to blow themselves up? I'm not trying to make a case for suicide bombing but rather trying to awaken your conciousness to the politics of the world.

In as much as I hate violence, I still would not allow propaganda such as the one you posted above to becloud my sense of reasoning and judgement.

Please I'll also want you to direct me to the source of your info above where "Muhammad stated that Allah sent him with Swords between his hands". We'll all do ourselves a lot of good if we make accurate references to our postings.

I do not want to dwell so much on the write up in the you have posted 'because it's authenticity is found wanting.

I expected you would laugh - laugh at something as serious as taking people's lives in Allah's name. Now what you call propaganda is self-evident; and just in case you missed the points in my protest, I'll oblige you by restating them:

The case of Propaganda:

The basic question here is whether or not the aforementioned organisations exist for the purpose stated in my earlier reply. If you had carefully done a search and come up with a counter that the organizations mentioned above do not exist, then you would have carried the day. However, you should know that they exist, and exist indeed for the purpose of murdering people - they do not know nor care about who is innocent as the sanctity of life does not command their respect. I offer you a few other reputable websites to check out if you doubt the authenticity of the ones indicated earlier (the only reason I would offer other websites is so that you have no doubts as to the the fact of the groups' activities).

First, try these other sites and see if there's nothing to the said communiqué I made reference to in my writeup:
http://www.mideastweb.org/osamabinladen2.htm or http://www.mideastweb.org/osamabinladen1.htm
(scroll down to the paragraghs where the articles carry the communiqué)

In addition, other websites of significant repute have articles on some of these groups referenced in my earlier reply -

(a) Jihad Group in Egypt - This group goes by various appellations: Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ), Islamic Jihad, and the Jihad Group. It has to its credit the following interesting activities: "The organization specializes in armed attacks against high-level Egyptian Government personnel, including cabinet ministers, and car-bombings against official US and Egyptian facilities. The original Jihad was responsible for the assassination in 1981 of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat." Read some more in this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Islamic_Jihad .

(b) The Jihad Movement in Bangladesh and the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan - There is just so much information on these groups that one hardly knows where to begin. Perusing through the activities of groups involved leaves a basic question on most people's minds: "where do these groups get their inspiration from for these activities?" Sample this: "Two of the main reasons believed to be responsible for terrorism in Pakistan are sectarian/religious violence and the mistrust in the Musharraf-Bush coalition in the war on terror. However, other causes like political rivalry and business disputes too take its toll. It is estimated that more than 4,000 people have died in Pakistan in the past 25 years due to sectarian strife." Then the article goes on to state precisely what was penned in my earlier reply that "some Islamic governments pretend that they don't know these organisations exist and operate in their own countries with institutionalised consent." This is how it runs on the website: "The Government of Pakistan is accused by India of having supplied monetary aid to certain separatist organisations fighting for secession in Kashmir. It has strongly denied the latter. However some statements have claimed the involvement of the now Pakistani information minister in establishing militant training camps in the early stages of the war many years ago." Get the full gist here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Pakistan .

There are hundreds of these groups around the globe, and the same questions are being asked: "Where do they get their inspiration from? From arts and music, peace initiatives, or from Islam?" Please notice one thing: the very names of some of these organizations are very revealing, because they tell you exactly where they got their ideas from. To give a few examples:

Jihad Group in Egypt; Egyptian Islamic Jihad; Islamic Jihad; Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan;
Jamaat-e-Islami ('Islamic Assembly'); aj-Jabhah al-Islamiyah al-Qawmiyah ('National Islamic Front')
al-Jama'ah al-Islamiyah al-Musallah ('The Armed Islamic Group'); etc.

Now most of these groups are violent in nature and by default - no one today would contest that unless they had no inkling about them. But have you noticed how they insert ideologies connected with "the religion of peace" into their organisations' names? 'Jihad' and 'Islamic' runs through these groups' operatives and yet the tool of achieving their political and social aims is simply first and last recourse to violence.

The Case of Mohammed's Sword:

Let us even take the joke that the authenticity of the group's fatwa quoted in my write earlier is questionable. As to the question of what verse the group quoted for Mohammed's sword and spear, I stated clearly that I had not read about that in the Qur'an. Let me remind you of my statement: "Excuse me, but what verse or hadith was the Islamic group quoting of Muhammad when he said Allah "inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders." I'd be happy to have you quote me that verse. However, if it's not in the Qur'an, what about the hadith? For whatever reason the group quoted that statement as attributed to Mohammed without leaving any reference in the Qur'an or hadith, what still amazes me is that so many Muslims have seen the communiqué and yet have done nothing about it.

The question of how come 'suicide bombers don't go to Ghana, South Africa, Sweden, Norway, China etc to blow themselves up' is childish to say the least. That same question was asked just before the bombings in London twice last July. And who was responsible for the bombings of the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998? Screaming news headlines clearly indicated the four men charged with the bombings were linked to Al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden's brainchild. (Sample here: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/embassy_bombing/ and http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/12508.htm).

It is really hypocritical for anyone to pretend that these are not real issues that stare us in the face because the authenticity of the articles they read is found wanting. Pardon me??!! How long do we have to wait before we can establish an otherwise "authenticity" for these atrocities? Typical harmattan bureaucracy.

Closing Thoughts.

Individuals the world over who are genuinely concerned about the spate of recent expressions of insanity under the unbrella of Islam, have made painful sacrifices to oppose this madness. One of such moves did not include laughter. But what price have these individuals had to pay for their efforts? Censoring and use of force or political pressure to drown their voice - and those using the force always come back to the Qur'an to justify their high-handeness. One thing is clear: there are simple minded Muslims who will prefer to die for their peaceful way of life than go out to murder others in the name of religion, a holy book, or a god. It does not matter to them what the verses say or not say, or whose cosmetic interpretation is blaring over the public address system - to kill my innocent neighbour who did not wrong me in the name of a god or a holy book is just not acceptable in our age! And to justify the atrocities of religious groups existing with the purpose of murdering people is an attack on social sagacity.

bari_kade:


Closing Thoughts.

Individuals the world over who are genuinely concerned about the spate of recent expressions of insanity under the unbrella of Islam, have made painful sacrifices to oppose this madness. One of such moves did not include laughter. But what price have these individuals had to pay for their efforts? Censoring and use of force or political pressure to drown their voice - and those using the force always come back to the Qur'an to justify their high-handeness. One thing is clear: there are simple minded Muslims who will prefer to die for their peaceful way of life than go out to murder others in the name of religion, a holy book, or a god. It does not matter to them what the verses say or not say, or whose cosmetic interpretation is blaring over the public address system - to kill my innocent neighbour who did not wrong me in the name of a god or a holy book is just not acceptable in our age! And to justify the atrocities of religious groups existing with the purpose of murdering people is an attack on social sagacity.

You seem to know so much about the world politics. You were the one who asked us all to visit the site, you were the one highlighting some supposedly "Qur'anic verses or Hadith", you are the one who's trying to use the site to drive home your point. I've only based my argument on the simple fact that if the first line of the arabic version is not same as what I've read in English, then you point is baseless. You don't have to base your arguements on false premises.

I wonder why it was the US embassy that was bombed in Kenya and Tanzania like you mentioned. Why was the Nigerian embassy not bombed, why was the Ghanian embassy left intact? Please ask your humble self these questions. Even If I'm personnaly against violence, I would not be cowwed into accepting you line of thought. If US and it's allies find it easy to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent lives in Afghanistan and Iraq all in the name of fighting terrorism (even though every sane human being knows it's all about oil) then why would you want to question the same set of boys when they on bombing rampage on US embassies. Perhaps it's unfortunate for those Muslim dominated countries to be endowed with crude oil.

You claim all those organization are in existence, I'm sure I didn't say anything otherwise. But the fact that the organizations are all in existence, does not necessarily mean they work together. Please prove to me that the 5 organizations in the English version are all mentioned in the Arabic text.

A word of advice though: Peddling falsehood/propaganda will not aid your course. Perhaps you should take some more lessons on world politics, then you'll come to understand.

Peace

9ijaMan,

You could blind yourself to reason as best suits you, no wahala. Call it propaganda - I've heard that a million and one times - and it still does not change the fact that Islamic groups exist with the main purpose of murdering innocent people: at least, you didn't deny that. I don't know what anyone would make of your questions about why the Nigerian and Ghanaian embassies were not bombed. The last two lines of your second paragraph go so far to show that you would support the killing of innocent people in the name of a religion, a holy book and a god. Everyone knows today that Muslims are not fighting a war based on oil - that's the hogwash that some Muslim 'intellectuals' have been pushing - and you make me shake my head for buying that lie. How many million barrels of oil are they fighting for in Pakistan that Muslims are killing each other? How many less million barrels of oil are they fighting for in Iraq that some Muslims would go so far as to bomb their Mosque and take up arms to kill fellow Muslims? And I guess you could blame the insanity of Muslims killing innocent Nigerians in the north on the Kaduna refineries? I'm staggered.

I am not an American; but for you to quip as to why I would "want to question the same set of boys when they on bombing rampage" on any embassy at all (including even official facilities of an Islamic government - Egypt) just proves my point - that something is intrinsically wrong with that kind of mentality. And all the hullaballoo we hear about the "peace" in that system of reasoning is not helping the 'Cinderella' image you're trying to prop up on your remarks.

Double peace.

The truth is that, the first thing that come to the mind of most Muslims as soon as they hear someone saying something against their prophet, is to kill him?

it is in their koran, and regarded that person as an enemies, Nijaman if you like say not all, History had repeated itself time without number in relating to the this question asked

9ijaman
if any one doubt me of what i have said, let the person travel to Mecca, Muslim Holy Country, Iraq, Afghanistan where Islamic religion originated from, or asked Muslim in Nigeria that had gone there for pigrimage to know what i have said is not a true fact,

You will not understand that verse not untill you travel there for more revelation of it

it seem i am even going too far, let me say Kanu state that is in Nigeria
9ijaman, i sense u are a muslim that had missed with christian so much, that the triat of muslim is no longer showing in you, u should be thankful for your life, i advice you not to go to mecca, becos if you venture try it, you may even trace me to Kill, that you have sined against Allah for allowering me to said those word you claim is out of context

in my next post i will tell you a true life story of one my muslim friend

charlisco:

9ijaman
if any one doubt me of what i have said, let the person travel to Mecca, Muslim Holy Country, Iraq, Afghanistan where Islamic religion originated from, or asked Muslim in Nigeria that had gone there for pigrimage to know what i have said is not a true fact,

You will not understand that verse not untill you travel there for more revelation of it

it seem i am even going too far, let me say Kanu state that is in Nigeria
9ijaman, i sense u are a muslim that had missed with christian so much, that the triat of muslim is no longer showing in you, u should be thankful for your life, i advice you not to go to mecca, because if you venture try it, you may even trace me to Kill, that you have sined against Allah for allowering me to said those word you claim is out of context

in my next post i will tell you a true life story of one my muslim friend

Charlisco,
Please whenever you make assertions and remarks, it'll pay you not to make assumptions about people. I'm a profound muslim and I have a very strong believe in my chosen faith. I've been to Saudi Arabia (Makkah and Madina) for the Hajj and I'm well grounded in my faith. So please stop deluding yourself that I've mixed with a lot of xtians and as such my Islamic trait is no longer showing. I consider that statement as an insult on my personality and would prefer you don't refer to me as such again. I've no reason whatsoever to be apologetic for being a muslim. I donot support violence but will certainly resist anywone who would attempt stop me from performing my religious right freely.

I'll be glad to read you story though. But remember lots of people also have stories to tell.

bari_kade:

9ijaMan,

You could blind yourself to reason as best suits you, no wahala. Call it propaganda - I've heard that a million and one times - and it still does not change the fact that Islamic groups exist with the main purpose of murdering innocent people: at least, you didn't deny that. I don't know what anyone would make of your questions about why the Nigerian and Ghanaian embassies were not bombed. The last two lines of your second paragraph go so far to show that you would support the killing of innocent people in the name of a religion, a holy book and a god. Everyone knows today that Muslims are not fighting a war based on oil - that's the hogwash that some Muslim 'intellectuals' have been pushing - and you make me shake my head for buying that lie. How many million barrels of oil are they fighting for in Pakistan that Muslims are killing each other? How many less million barrels of oil are they fighting for in Iraq that some Muslims would go so far as to bomb their Mosque and take up arms to kill fellow Muslims? And I guess you could blame the insanity of Muslims killing innocent Nigerians in the north on the Kaduna refineries? I'm staggered.

I am not an American; but for you to quip as to why I would "want to question the same set of boys when they on bombing rampage" on any embassy at all (including even official facilities of an Islamic government - Egypt) just proves my point - that something is intrinsically wrong with that kind of mentality. And all the hullaballoo we hear about the "peace" in that system of reasoning is not helping the 'Cinderella' image you're trying to prop up on your remarks.

Double peace.

bari_kade
Yes Islamic groupd do exist, but I'll never agree with you their purpose is to kill and maim like you claim. How many of your people has Ansar-ud-deen killed?
My friend I'm only asking you to bring forth impeccable facts to prove your points. Not the half truths and falsehoods you hear from CNN. I care less if you are an american or not. If you care to do a simple research, talk to a few westerners besides you and ask their opinion about the US, perhaps you get a clearer picture.

You mentioned Pakistanis killing themselves, so it's because they are muslims that's why they are violeent abi? You must be kidding me. What would you say about the fightings in Warri between the various tribes? I find an easy excuse like you and say xtians too are violent for killing themselves, after all these ppel are mostly xtians. But I surely would not say such 'because I don't look for easy and lame ways to label ethnic/sectarian crises as being perpetrated by a particular religious group.
Or would you accept the fact that xtians too are violent since most members of the MEND are probably xtians like yourself.

My brother, shine ya eyes o!
If I've hurt you by asking you to bing forth genuine evidences to make your point, the best you can do is to make a little bit of extra research perhaps you'll be able to convince ppel like me. But so far you have only been jumping around and stubborn to face the realities in the politics of the world.

Peace.

9ijaMan,

If I was dribbling around, Nairaland readers would have seen that from a mile off. Let me remind you of two things. The Muslim mindset today does not want to read or hear anything from America because they don't trust the news coming from there - they see it as the 'propaganda' of the "Christian West." Secondly, they are highly critical of anything that suggests the fact that Islam has been used for bad ends by some Muslims - which still remains a fact on ground and not propaganda. At the backdrop of this, I offered several websites (some of which have been floated by Muslims themselves), and so far the only conclusion that one may draw is that you simply refused to go through any one of them. I am not aware that Wikipedia is a 'Christian' website or affiliated to CNN - it is just an assumption you created in your mind so you could feel safe and not face the truth.

Let's even weigh your illustrations - at the end of the day, they are wide of the mark. The fightings in Warri have never been attributed to causes that are religious or "Christian sectarian" violence. How cheeky could you get? How many of those people have you seen waving Bibles in hand during disturbances, like Muslims do whenever they take to the streets in Muslim dominated countries like Pakistan, Iraq, and Iran? So, you're one of those who feels that anything outside Islam must necessarily be 'Christian' - no wonder the communal clashes in the Niger Delta could pop up in your mind as a classic example of religious terrorism. Please don't make me laugh.

You haven't hurt me by asking for genuine evidence - it's a legitimate enquiry; and I've provided them in my previous reply before this, since the earlier one did not carry weight with you. However, if you still want to disparage them without even checking them up, there's nothing more anyone could do to help your bias. Anyone could see that I've put in effort to 'do research' in my writeups; but it surprises me that you'd rather sit back in your armchair philosophy and not attempt to provide me with even one web reference to debunk my claim that the very organisations mentioned in my piece are in very fact violent. I still maintain the facts of my findings: "However one may interpret the controversial verses of Sura 2:191-192, many* Islamic organizations exist for the purpose of these same evil acts of murdering people, and it would border on insanity and base perversion for anyone to sanction their actions by any stretch." (*many - I did not say 'ALL').

As far as I know, these Islamic groups understand "the politics of the world" in only one vernacular - violence. And it cannot be denied that they point to the Qur'an as their source of inspiration for whatever they do. At the trigger of a hairpin, the Islamic world would seize the slightest chance to blame "Christians" and "Jews" for any and everything that upsets them. So, the Danish newspaper media in Denmark was "Christian" simply because it was a non-Islamic corporation? And the Muslims (many of whom have not even seen the cartoons) who started killing their innocent neighbours got their inspiration from where, if not the Qur'an? But focusing on institutionalised terrorism, everyone knows that most of the Islamic groups listed in my writeup got their inspiration from Islam's holy book. If you can't see that, then let it rest. The question then is: "Why does it have to be so?"

Charlisco,

You don't even need to go as far Mecca of Iraq to discover that.

I did my NYSC in Maiduguri; i can tell you something.

The mere sight of you carrying a bible is enough to stir up anger in them. They are simply irritated by the sight of you openly professing your faith. It is even more dangerous when you go into a muslim compound to share the scriptures. In fact, many christians will even hate to imaging that.

Why did they threaten to kill the Evangelist Renhard Bonkke when he visited Kaduna for a crusade? He had to be rescued by the Federal Govt. He was flown out of Kaduna immediately.

How come they are always the first to start the killing in the religious crisis we've had in our nation?

Is God that way?

That is what i am trying to explian to 9jaman, he is a secular muslim, you can not go to mecca to preach the gospel, if you do not wish your head to be cut-off,

Muslim are very friendly if dey forget their religion, that is the true fact
9jaman if you like prove me wrong, that is the truth.

by defending your faith is by killing the pepetrator physically just imagine that

charlisco:

That is what i am trying to explian to 9jaman, he is a secular muslim, you can not go to mecca to preach the gospel, if you do not wish your head to be cut-off,

Muslim are very friendly if dey forget their religion, that is the true fact
9jaman if you like prove me wrong, that is the truth.

by defending your faith is by killing the pepetrator physically just imagine that

I beg ur pardon. There is nothing like a secular Muslim. It's either you are a muslim or not. I'd appreciate it if you stop referreing to me as being secular. Practicing Islam the right way does not make one secular neither does it make one stupid.
You cannot go to the Vatican to preach Islam either. How would you like it to see a muslim walk into your church to preach about Islam? What do you think would happen. Abeg u guys should open your eyes and stop having the illusions that Muslims hate you.
We've got better things to think about instead of wasting valuable time hating pple for their faith.
I'll always follow the Qu'ran and Hadith (practice and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad [SAW]).

Peace

9ijaMan:

I beg your pardon. There is nothing like a secular Muslim. It's either you are a muslim or not. I'd appreciate it if you stop referreing to me as being secular.

9ijaMan,

Call it whatever else you like - there is such a thing as a secular Muslim and they number into the millions in the same 'West' that the 'Middle East' Muslims are trying to 'beleaguer' and kill for Allah's cause [Sura 9:5]. "It's either you are a muslim or not." Just listen to yourself. It's just a matter of nomenclature, if you like, and the ideology of secular Islamism is well carried by facts on the ground just as well the idea of 'conservative Muslims'. Just a sampler: you'll find that such terms as "Euro-Islam" have been coined by Muslim scholars themselves to describe this paradigm shift that you seem to be largely ignorant of. Let me quote you a few lines from a non-partisan website (Council on Foreign Relations) as an example:

Do Muslims in Europe practice the same kind of faith as Muslims in their home countries?

"Home-grown imams, shipped to Europe, have tried to guarantee that they do, experts say. But leading thinkers like Bassam Tibi of Germany's University of Gottingen, and Tariq Ramadan, a Swiss-born intellectual and grandson of the founder of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood, argue that Muslims in Europe must create a specific form of Islam that can coexist with European values. Tibi coined the term "Euro-Islam" to describe a type of Islam that embraces Western political values, such as pluralism, tolerance, and the separation of church and state."

[Scroll down the page and get the gist here http://www.cfr.org/publication/8252/europe.html?breadcrumb=default ]

I'll respect your wish not to be called a secular Muslim; but your wish does not change the facts on ground - there are many Muslims pushing for a reform and relaxing of certain ideas expressed in the Qur'an because they don't promote the fundamentals of the ideals of peaceful and neighbourly co-existence between people of diverse cultures and outlook. I could reference a few more websites that are not connected to CNN if you so require of me; however, you might as well take a peek at some ideas of secular Islam in this link: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/3976 .

Even when you make analogies, you often forget that the scales are tipped for Islam more than for Christianity. Christians have never openly attacked or harrassed Muslims for carrying their Qur'an in Christian dominated regions or countries (again, the West and Europe), but what happens to Christians who might be sighted with their Bibles in Muslim dominated regions or countries like Saudi Arabia? You might not be aware of the real world beyond your immediate geographic space, and that is forgiveable. If there were enough of your type who don't wink at the cruelty displayed by those 'Muslims' commonly referred to as 'extreme', the northern Nigerian madness started by Muslims themselves upon non-Muslims would not have occured in the first place. Perhaps you ought to ask those fellows if they were secular or conservative 'Euro-Islamic' Muslims.

There is one Koran and one Islam.